Why Christian girls have so few boyfriends.

17 May

I was reading the comments at another blog, and one commenter mentioned how “shocking” it is that so many cute Christian girls in their late 20s/early 30s have only had one or zero boyfriends in their entire lives.  Honestly, this kind of news is only “shocking” if you don’t know anything about conservative Christian culture.  Here’s how a reasonably attractive, non-psycho Christian girl of, say, age 32 can go boyfriend-less her entire life:

  • Very poor male/female ratio of singles at church. If mating is a numbers game, women are on the losing side.  Most churches that are not specifically targeted to single professionals (a.k.a. “seeker churches”) have a low singles population.  Of the singles who are regular attenders, the majority of them will be women.  Of the men, a lot of them will be “old” or weird.
  • Single men at church do not initiate. If there are any single men who pass muster, they often aren’t asking out the single women at their church.  Sometimes this is due to fear of social ostracism (i.e., ask out too many women and you get a rep of being an indiscriminate player who’s only looking for a warm body), sometimes it’s a lack of sexual interest…in general, sometimes it’s immaturity, sometimes it’s apathy, and sometimes it actually IS that all of the single women at church are fat and/or damaged.
  • Refusal to date both non-Christians and nominal Christians. Most “good” Christian girls will not hang out at places where the average (non-Christian) man will go to meet women, such as bars, clubs, sporting events, house parties where alcohol is served, or the mall.  They are much more likely to be found in the church nursery, leading a youth group retreat, helping out at a women’s shelter, attending a small group Bible study, baby-sitting the children of married Christian friends, on a missions trip, hanging out with her parents and family, or at a game night sponsored by the college & career group at church.  Should a good Christian girl actually meet a non-Christian man who is attracted to her, she will most likely be very wary of him as a romantic prospect and will refuse to go on a date with him if he asks, due to the biblical command not to be yoked (married) to unbelievers (2 Cor. 6:14).  Ditto for a man who is nominally a Christian (i.e., claims to be a Christian yet doesn’t “bear fruit”).

Other factors can come into play as well — being too picky is a problem regardless of creed — but these three points cover the major reasons that Christian girls endure such long periods of singleness.  In the end it’s pretty much a numbers game, and the girls are losing it.

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112 Responses to “Why Christian girls have so few boyfriends.”

  1. Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life May 18, 2010 at 2:34 pm #

    So what’s the solution is the question.

    By 32 they are all but over for fertility. :-(

  2. Will S. May 18, 2010 at 7:34 pm #

    In my church circles, pickiness has been the issue for many of the young women. One girl at a church I used to attend moaned she was never going to meet someone, but I know of at least five guys at our church who asked her out (myself included), and of the few she did date, none of them met up to her sky-high standards. If she dies alone, she has nobody to blame but herself.

    But, I have been at churches where the guys seem to have either no nerve or no ambition to get married, and would rather just play WOW in their apartment. I do think the Church has failed young men, in not encouraging them to step up and be bold, not fearing rejection. And the Church in North America at least, if not the West in general, has failed to realize the consequences for itself, in the long run, if large numbers of young adults don’t end up paired off.

    Athol is right, too; female fertility has an expiration date. Women shouldn’t be so fearful of ‘old’ single men, who are more likely to be in a better place financially and career-wise than younger men, and more mature, and they shouldn’t view them as ‘weird’. Again, female pickiness is the problem in terms of why such men get ruled out as viable options.

  3. Aunt Haley May 18, 2010 at 7:59 pm #

    From a practical standpoint, the church needs (a) more men, and (b) men who are looking for marriage and affirmatively ask women for dates. I don’t think this is likely to happen unless both secular and church culture start encouraging the participation of men as men. When churches are focused on childcare and divorce recovery and being “relevant” and serving up sermons that equate to “Jesus loves you, feel better about yourself,” you’re facing a steep uphill battle to engage men. Meanwhile, you have secular culture offering premarital sex, on-demand p o r n, and no pressure to marry until you’re 35.

    As for women, I suppose it depends partially on how badly a woman with few to no options wants to get married. She can lower her standards a LOT – not in the area of faith so much as being willing to date and marry, say, someone who is much older or bald or fat or poor or divorced or has kids. She can be willing to move cross-country or even to a different country. It sort of boils down to whether or not she wants to be married, period.

  4. Aunt Haley May 18, 2010 at 8:20 pm #

    Okay, FIVE guys asked out the same girl? Was she a church-10? I agree, I don’t have any sympathy for her, either. If that many guys from church asked her out, she probably gets asked out by non-church guys as well and has a very high opinion of her DMV.

    There seems to be a weird affliction among some church guys where they seem to be interested in anything BUT women. These are guys who get more turned on by debating pre-trib vs. post-trib or Calvinism vs. Arminianism than by talking to an attractive woman. It’s almost like a strange Pauline hipsterism with singleness on a pedestal.

    More women, especially if they’re not in the upper half of attractiveness, should be open to older men. But at the same time, an older man needs to keep himself relevant to the younger women he’s interested in. Having an old guy haircut, old guy interests, old guy fashion, and an old guy gut are not going to sway a medium-cute 25-year-old unless he has seriously good other credentials. This is a situation where high-quality preselection can help a lot. A young woman will be less wary of an older man who has high-quality female friends and ex-girlfriends.

  5. Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life May 18, 2010 at 8:21 pm #

    Well the church keeps telling these young women God has a wonderful plan for their life and a special guy is out there for her.

    Their pickiness is church taught as much as anything. They are told repeatedly that some guy almost as good as Jesus is gonna sweep them off their feet someday. The bald guy two rows back that keeps staring at them isn’t it.

    I just don’t see young healthy women with a one and done attitude being willing to settle for anything less than the best possible.

  6. Aunt Haley May 18, 2010 at 8:34 pm #

    I definitely agree that the church is partially at fault for more or less teaching girls that their poo don’t stink and that God has some special guy in mind just for her. God is writing your love story! What a joy it will be to tell your children and grandchildren how the Lord brought you together when you were least expecting it!

    This attitude is sort of conflated with the “Jesus is your boyfriend” movement. When girls are presented with the idea that no one will love them as deeply or passionately or fully or unconditionally or knowingly as Jesus, and that to Jesus they are a perfect snowflake of all-surpassing beauty, what can a mere man offer?

    Well, do you blame young women with a one-and-done attitude for not wanting to settle? Making a “mistake” is really not an option when divorce is off the table. There is a huge tension between having the minimum amount of maturity necessary to make a good choice, and the biological pressure of sex and procreation.

  7. Will S. May 19, 2010 at 8:57 pm #

    I know what you mean about those kind of guys; I used to belong to a Christian singles website aimed at my particular tradition, and all it seemed that half the guys on there wanted to do was show their theological debating prowess in interminable arguments with each other; I think they were more out to impress each other, because I can’t imagine any of the women were all that impressed. But then, it seemed like many on that site, of both sexes, were more interested in merely socializing with others from our particular community, than actually getting out there and dating people they might meet on there. I got frustrated and eventually quit. But I know that the girl I mentioned earlier was on there, still single… (She was certainly attractive, but I’d say a 7.5, at most. But she had a high-paying, ‘hip’ job – web design for a major travel agency – and her daddy was a church elder… She thought quite highly of herself and her pedigree, IMO.)

  8. Rebekah May 19, 2010 at 11:31 pm #

    Hi, I’ve been lurking and reading for a little bit now and really enjoy the content of your blog. It’s really made me think, for sure.

    This attitude is sort of conflated with the “Jesus is your boyfriend” movement. When girls are presented with the idea that no one will love them as deeply or passionately or fully or unconditionally or knowingly as Jesus, and that to Jesus they are a perfect snowflake of all-surpassing beauty, what can a mere man offer?

    Wow, the True Love Waits ceremony just came flooding back! It almost did seem like a wedding. I think the idea was good and saved quite a few from succumbing to peer pressure and all that, but perhaps the pendulum did swing a bit too far in the other direction.

  9. Aunt Haley May 20, 2010 at 8:39 am #

    Hi, Rebekah, thanks for de-lurking.

  10. Thursday May 23, 2010 at 8:26 am #

    The commenter was me.

    And it’s a little of A and a little of B. Yes, there are a lot of timid church guys who won’t ask girls out. (I don’t think the sex ratio is that big of a difference. At younger ages it’s not that big. Only as you get older do the numbers start to really skew towards women.) But female pickiness is a huge issue. Any girl who is young, pretty (at least a 7 by universal standards), intelligent and chaste thinks she is the shit. There are guys like me and Will S. who aren’t afraid to ask girls out and whose standards for looks are not outrageous. I’ve asked out and dated church girls and I’ve asked out and dated non-church girls and the latter are way more willing to give you a chance. I’m the introspective type who tends to blame myself, so it came as something of a shock to find out that I’m actually a pretty attractive guy who doesn’t have much trouble getting dates with real hotties. Turns out it wasn’t just my fault. It actually made me a little bit angry towards evangelical women. Of course, I am an eccentric, arty guy who until the last few years was rather on the poor side.

  11. Joey Giraud May 23, 2010 at 8:48 am #

    There may be a solution. Perhaps the parents of the single Christian girl with no boyfriend could meet with the parents of a good Christian boy with no girlfriend and arrange for the two to date and wed.

    Nah, it would never work. Too modern.

  12. Aunt Haley May 23, 2010 at 10:57 am #

    This sort of thing only works if both the boy and girl in question truly want their parents’ involvement. Otherwise it just feels like meddling (and impatience on the mother’s part for grandchildren).

  13. Aunt Haley May 23, 2010 at 11:12 am #

    Hi, Thursday, thanks for swinging by.

    But female pickiness is a huge issue. Any girl who is young, pretty (at least a 7 by universal standards), intelligent and chaste thinks she is the shit.

    This is because girls who grow up in the church are taught from very early on to reach for the stars when it comes to a mate. They are told they must never date a man they could not envision themselves marrying. And the type of man they should marry is a spiritual leader, kind, patient, good with kids, chivalrous, diligent, and respectful. So if you don’t like to pray aloud in public, or sing with abandon on Sunday morning, or teach Sunday school to little kids, or treat the old ladies as if they were all belles, or kill at your job, or keep your hands to yourself, you’ve got a tough row to hoe already. Young women are not taught to think ahead five to ten years and imagine what the man could become, especially with the aid of her ~loving guidance. And no one ever tells young women that their looks are very temporary OR that their looks are their main tool in attracting a man.

  14. Will S. May 23, 2010 at 8:27 pm #

    This brings up an interesting point I’ve been noticing about for a while; it always seems that evangelical literature is always encouraging EVERYONE to be a leader in some capacity or other; both Josh Harris’ “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” and Jeramy Clark’s “I Gave Dating A Chance” encouraged a Christian young man and a Christian young woman to look for someone who is leading some ministry or another, or missions, etc. (I forget if it was just one or both of them whose future (and now) wife was leading some sort of women’s ministry, or teaching Sunday School or something, but yes, not only is the seeming expectation that every man to be a leader of something, but so it seems is every young woman.) This is absurd, as not everyone can be a ‘chief'; some people have to be ‘Indians'; there simply isn’t enough opportunities in any church for every single man and woman to be heading up a ministry or mission – nor will everyone be inclined to do so – and how is that wrong? Why should everyone be leading something? I mean, a young man might be quite capable of being a leader in a marital relationship without having ever even led a sports team; it is absurd and unreasonable to expect every man to be a leader in something, or to suggest that only men who have been leaders are worthy of obtaining a wife. Similarly, why should every young woman feel expected to teach Sunday School or run off and teach English and do covert mission work in Pakistan or Kazakhstan or China, etc.? Are women who don’t do such things unworthy to be wives? Of course not!

    Evangelical literature is far too biased towards the natural leadership class, if you will, within the evangelical community. Some people may just be pew-warmers, and I really see nothing wrong with that. (Full disclosure: I have led Bible Study groups, and have participated in choirs, choral groups, and other church things, so no-one can rightly accuse me of being a pew-warmer. But I see nothing amiss in there being those who choose to do so. And I loathe the suggestion that everyone has to somehow prove themselves through heading up some church organization or putting oneself out there in a mission capacity, just so you can be considered marriageable. That’s B.S.)

    End of rant.

  15. Julie November 6, 2010 at 2:43 pm #

    Good post. But Athol Kay, I think you’re exaggerating with your fertility comment. Yes, fertility starts to decline at 27, but gradually. It starts a steeper decline at 35 but most women can still conceive. It IS risky to wait too long to try to have babies, and most people don’t understand how fertility drops off. But still, most women can have babies in their 30s if they want to, and the majority of those babies will be healthy.

  16. Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life November 6, 2010 at 3:03 pm #

    Julie – More recent studies suggest egg loss is much faster than previously believed.

    http://www.babyzone.com/preconception/article/news-fertility-egg-loss

  17. Julie November 6, 2010 at 3:53 pm #

    Interesting…sobering. Well, I had my two children in my 30s and I think they’re high quality! Perhaps it is best for women to assume they may have trouble conceiving in their 30s, in case they are one of those who will. Certainly, we went ahead with trying to conceive despite not being economically as stable as we would have liked. Just didn’t want to risk waiting too long… But I didn’t marry until I was 28 so couldn’t try to conceive before that!

  18. Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life November 6, 2010 at 6:10 pm #

    It is sobering. Women have been told for many years that pregnancy is just there waiting for them. That’s not always true. If she’s age 35+ it’s automatically termed a high risk pregnancy medically.

    If you’re a man wanting a family the old fashioned way, the age of your potential wife is a serious factor to consider.

  19. Julie November 6, 2010 at 6:58 pm #

    True, especially for those who want a large family. Still, the way it is presented sometimes, it scares women into thinking infertility and birth defects are more likely than they really are. For example, people say you are more likely to have a baby with Down Syndrome the older you are. True–but even at age 40, you still have a 99% chance that your baby will not have Down Syndrome.

    I agree with you though, that it’s valuable information for both men and women–fertility does not last forever. Women should be more intentional at a younger age about finding a good husband/future father for their children. If you find a good one at age 26, but want to keep holding out for an ideal, it’s probably good to rethink that, ie. Lori Gottlieb and her eventual plight.

  20. Joseph Dantes November 6, 2010 at 11:28 pm #

    You’re missing some reasons Haley.

    This is inherently a comparison relative to the boyfriend-having standards of non-Christian girls of varying attractiveness.

    The #1 reason is barriers to entry. I can acquire a sexual relationship with a new girlfriend off a cold approach and one or two dates. Less than 24 hours work, total. Getting a Christian wife on the other hand is the work of months or years.

    You girls are at fault for setting the barriers to entry so high. Ruth didn’t. You don’t have to either.

    The #2 reason is that Christian women have conformed to the world by discarding traditional femininity, without at least picking up a lesson or two in slutty femininity. So what’s to enjoy? Believe it or not, ladies, your fluffy-headed capricious companionship is not as inherently valuable as the male variety, and a man quickly gets tired of sex with the same partner, especially if she isn’t feminine.

    The #3 reason is that Christian women reject patriarchy. You try, little sponges, but you fail, winding up like an embalmer’s corpse with a thin layer of patriarchy paint over a mass of decomposing feminist flesh. If you want to understand what a submissive, feminine woman is, look at South American or East Asian women… anywhere in the world except the West, pretty much.

    There is nothing so beguiling to a man as being respected, and nothing so off-putting as its opposite. Unfortunately you only see that level of respect in most church girls towards men vastly more attractive than they are, upon whom they have a hopeless crush.

    The #4 reason is that women have taken to leading in the church, and not following real men when they do show up. They follow the emo tinglefier’s of their gender’s preference instead, subsidizing and creating a generation of church leaders who disgust or bore young men, driving them from the churches. A leadership vacuum with potential for advancement in a recognizable and just pack structure is attractive to young men. An equalitarian mess built on emo bullsh!t is not.

    The #5 reason Christian women don’t have boyfriends is they don’t dress slutty enough. Which do you think God values more, your aging ovaries or some “brother’s” propensity to masturbate while thinking of your cleavage? News flash, he’s going to masturbate anyway, may as well be to you rather than pr0n or the celebrity du jour. Congratulations on the “fruit” of your righteousness, in directing away any hint of sexual pleasure from the church and into the world.

    The #6 reason Christian women don’t have boyfriends is they don’t do that collective girly exhibitionist stuff that works so well as an advertisement. This does NOT mean the exhibitionism of a woman who gets up on stage and leads in church in place of a man. It means the kind of thing the daughters of Israel did, holding all female dances, yadda yadda. That kind of stuff makes a man want to cut one from the herd.

    The #7 reason is statutory rape laws. Young love works.

    The #8 reason is they wouldn’t dream of letting their fathers handle it for them, or of asking their fathers.

    Well, there are other reasons, but these are the ones Haley hasn’t covered, off the top of my head.

  21. Julie November 7, 2010 at 1:15 pm #

    Joseph, you really think Christian women should dress slutty? I thought Christian men steered clear of anything even resembling sluttiness in women?

    I hear you on the downsides of feminism. Personally, I had few boyfriends and a delayed marriage–why? I’d say I had a small pool of men to choose from (the internet wasn’t really used much back then), a bar set high (and higher and higher as I learned what did NOT work in relationships), and a fear of divorce. Making a really great match is so much more important these days, now that divorce is such a possibility–you can’t just pair off with any attractive Christian person who seems like a fit–you have to be wise and shrewd and really make sure you’re both in it for the long haul.

  22. Eumaios November 7, 2010 at 1:42 pm #

    * the “Every man a leader” trope: Aside from the obvious scriptural warnings that we may expect to fulfill a wide range of roles, this is clearly a recipe for disaster in any congregation larger than a house meeting. Or even a house meeting that tries to hard to be a church.

    * Aunt Haley: “If there are any single men who pass muster, they often aren’t asking out the single women at their church. Sometimes this is due to fear of social ostracism (i.e., ask out too many women and you get a rep of being an indiscriminate player who’s only looking for a warm body), sometimes it’s a lack of sexual interest…in general, sometimes it’s immaturity, sometimes it’s apathy, and sometimes it actually IS that all of the single women at church are fat and/or damaged.”

    With due respect to the hostess, this is pernicious crap. There are few men, even the emasculated churchians, with a lack of sexual interest. I’d have to have a better idea what you mean by invoking “apathy” before properly demolishing your assertion. “Immaturity” reeks of shaming language, though I suspect you don’t mean it that way. Is a man immature who fears to express interest in women because of his past treatment by them?

    “men who pass muster”. You toss this off so casually, as if it were a commonplace. What disqualifies the men who do not pass your tests?

    The point about worrying that expressing interest in too many women will cause trouble is interesting. In my youth, I was afraid to express interest in any girl, cowed by the chimera of her rejecting me combined with the worry that other girls I liked would find out. This experience may be confined to those who overthink everything.

  23. Will S. November 7, 2010 at 8:30 pm #

    Thank you, Eumaios; I thought I was alone in perceiving this problem, glad to see that’s not so.

  24. The Man Who Was . . . November 7, 2010 at 9:38 pm #

    With due respect to the hostess, this is pernicious crap. There are few men, even the emasculated churchians, with a lack of sexual interest. I’d have to have a better idea what you mean by invoking “apathy” before properly demolishing your assertion. “Immaturity” reeks of shaming language, though I suspect you don’t mean it that way. Is a man immature who fears to express interest in women because of his past treatment by them?

    Oh, please. Get over yourself. Not everything has to be parsed for its strict adherence to the MRA party line. What are we here, a bunch of feminists? Some men don’t have any sexual interest in the particular women at their church and some men in the church are immature.

  25. Joseph Dantes November 7, 2010 at 11:42 pm #

    “Joseph, you really think Christian women should dress slutty? I thought Christian men steered clear of anything even resembling sluttiness in women?”

    Oh dear, did you really believe that?

    Also, traditional and sluttily dressed are not mutually exclusive.

    “Oh, please. Get over yourself. Not everything has to be parsed for its strict adherence to the MRA party line. What are we here, a bunch of feminists?”

    Bravo, sir! @#$% gammas always jump in and ruin a good thing.

    MRA’s are the undersexed keyboard pundits of the PUAsphere.

  26. Cane Caldo November 7, 2010 at 11:55 pm #

    “Is a man immature who fears to express interest in women because of his past treatment by them?”

    Yes. Because the mature man’s next thought is: “I’ll live.”

  27. Old Guy November 8, 2010 at 10:16 am #

    MRA?

  28. Joseph Dantes November 8, 2010 at 11:18 am #

    men’s right’s advocates, I think. there are other acronyms but I always forget them – MGTOW??

  29. knepper November 8, 2010 at 7:45 pm #

    I think many Christian single men allow themselves to turn into betas because of a misunderstanding of true masculinity. They are taught falsehoods such as being a Christian means suppressing typical male emotions and male aggressiveness, and putting on a false front of meek and mild, unoffensive behavior. This is wrong on many levels. It really kind of pisses me off, because the church is the one place where true masculinity and femininity should be on display. Also, I don’t think Jesus was as feminine-looking as he is usually portrayed in painting. He spent 20 plus years doing carpentry with hand tools; he probably had arms like tree trunks. David is another good role model for young men–brave, and unafraid to take on a man twice his size in mortal combat. Of course there is a spiritual dimension to the story, but whenever I hear a sermon preached on David and Goliath, I never hear the simple lesson to be brave and face your problems like a man.

  30. observer November 9, 2010 at 12:19 am #

    another interesting contradiction – and please correct me if my experiences are unique – is that it seems far more acceptable among Christian girls growing up to have posters of the hot new males of the time, whether it’s Orlando Bloom/Johnny Depp or the Jonas Brothers or Team Jacob/Team Edward, while it is frowned upon for a growing Christian boy to put up posters of maxim models.

    this seems to reflect an underlying attitude that the masculine sex drive is a danger and it is the gravest sin to objectify women in any way, or even to judge women by their appearances… but it is quite fine for females to hold men to standards of physical appeal

  31. Will S. November 9, 2010 at 4:10 am #

    Very good point, Observer. So true.

    And, it’s also considered fine for Christian girls to read romance novels (or watch romance movies, as you alluded to in your ‘Team Edward’ comment) – which are the female equivalent of pornography – and there are even Christian romance novels sold at Christian bookstores. (Note that I’m not arguing in favour of pornography here; it promotes an unrealistic view of the sexes and relationships – BUT romance novels are equally unhealthy, also promoting an unrealistic view of the sexes and relationships, but because no illicit photographic or video imagery is necessarily involved (though in movies, it often happens), nobody condemns romance novels the way they do pornography.)

    In other words, female fantasies of romance and relationships are completely okay, even if highly unrealistic and damaging to them (if they wonder why no guy they meet is as dashing as the heroes in their romance novels / movies, etc.), while the male equivalent is forbidden. Ideally, the Church would condemn and discourage the use of both.

  32. knepper November 9, 2010 at 12:50 pm #

    In other words, female fantasies of romance and relationships are completely okay, even if highly unrealistic and damaging to them (if they wonder why no guy they meet is as dashing as the heroes in their romance novels / movies, etc.), while the male equivalent is forbidden.
    True, especially since 99% of married life is in the ‘happily ever after’ part that the romance novels skip over. Love is much more of a choice than a feeling that you ‘fall’ into, and can just as easily fall out of. If you have an addiction to the tingly feeling of a new romance, which is what these novels encourage, you are quickly going to become dissatisfied with almost any marital partner once life settles into the more mundane process of daily living, as it always will.

  33. Julie November 9, 2010 at 1:35 pm #

    You know, I remember trying to look my best, focus on God, and be the best person I can be, partly to attract a mate. But the best advice someone could have given me is, “Look for a man for whom you are the best he can do.” If a man can do “better” than a certain woman, he will probably try to do so. It doesn’t mean a woman shouldn’t be choosy, however, shooting too high is counterproductive–it will either result in no marriage, or an unstable one.

  34. Old Guy November 9, 2010 at 3:07 pm #

    Julie: Our hostess and others have suggested that Christian women should perhaps adjust what they seek in a man to have a better chance of attracting a husband: See the June 16th post, The Fine Art of Settling.

    Yours is the first suggestion I’ve seen that it may be a good idea to pursue less in a man than you might actually manage to land, to have a better chance of a successful marriage.

    A woman following your advice would be undertaking a burden: One of the Iron Laws of Game appears to be that a woman who has bound herself to a lesser guy will in time be consumed by contempt and revulsion, and grind his soul to dust. At least, that’s what I read.

    Your approach may work better for men than for women.

  35. Julie November 9, 2010 at 5:14 pm #

    Old Guy, I was envisioning a match of parity-if she’s the best he can do, he’s probably the best she can do, in terms of an LTR.

  36. ASDF November 9, 2010 at 5:19 pm #

    Old Guy:
    Julie’s advice does not necessitate that she bind herself to a lesser guy. Rather, because of the differences in what makes a good man vs a good woman, an equal pairing means that while the guy may not be able to do better than that particular woman, neither can she do better than him. In other words, if they’re both 8s, he’s not going to be leaving her for a supermodel, and Brad Pitt isn’t going to show up to sweep her off her feet.

  37. Aunt Haley November 9, 2010 at 7:02 pm #

    Julie–
    if she’s the best he can do, he’s probably the best she can do, in terms of an LTR.
    Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that you should pick someone who can’t do better than you, and you can’t do better than that person? There are a lot of people for whom I’m the best they could do, but that wouldn’t necessarily result in a great match for me. I think that’s what Old Guy was getting at.

    I think that most of the time, people can do better than what they’ve got, but the issue then becomes how much work it is going to take to keep that relationship alive, e.g., how much work is the woman going to put into her appearance and how often, how dominant is the man going to be and how often, how tolerant is either spouse going to be of the other person’s shortcomings, etc. For stability in a marriage, parity usually allows people to “be themselves” and still find a high-quality match (for their overall level of attractiveness).

    The problems really crop up when people start overvaluing themselves.

  38. Old Guy November 9, 2010 at 10:44 pm #

    What she said.

  39. Julie November 10, 2010 at 6:56 am #

    Yes, I guess I see it as an antidote to hypergamy–if a woman has her sights set on a particular guy, or kind of guy, she can ask herself, “Are there women who are more attractive than me who also have/seem to have their eyes on him?” If so, it could be a sign that she is overreaching.

    It’s a delicate balance–finding someone who is really a good match and yet someone you can be excited about as well. You definitely have to be choosy, but in the right ways, and not to the extent that you rule out all the men who are truly possibilities for you.

  40. Megan March 10, 2012 at 8:55 pm #

    Ok, I’m a teenage Christian girl, and I am 16 and don’t have a boyfriend, and never have. I would like to say that I do not think “Jesus is my boyfriend” or anything like that! I just am waiting to see what happens with life. I don’t want to put myself into a situation where I could be tempted to do anything sexually (because I want to wait until marriage). I’m also not under this illusion that Prince Charming will come and sweep me off my feet. But I have heard from my mom over and over “Please promise me you won’t settle!” and that has nothing to do with the Christianity point, that is because my father treats her poorly. But my point is, Christian girls don’t want to get a boyfriend the same way some other girls do. I don’t want a boyfriend just because he thinks I’m hot or I’ve got boobs or something. That sends the wrong message. And honestly I would rather end up single forever than marry someone who just likes me for looks. That’s not how God intended it to be.

  41. Smithborough March 13, 2012 at 4:24 am #

    “I don’t want a boyfriend just because he thinks I’m hot or I’ve got boobs or something. That sends the wrong message. And honestly I would rather end up single forever than marry someone who just likes me for looks. That’s not how God intended it to be.”

    Men aren’t women.

    Firstly, we are generally attracted by appearance. Look at the Song of Solomon in the Bible, the man there doesn’t praise his beloved’s wonderful career, her intelligence or say much about her personality, it is all about her beauty.

    Secondly, while men are generally attracted by beauty, this doesn’t mean that every man only wants to marry the absolute most beautiful woman he knows. We tend to find many women attractive, unlike women we are not generally fixated on the idea of “the one”. For this reason although attraction will be as a result of looks, whether a man wants to marry a particular woman will be much more to do with other factors, such as pleasant personality, not complaining, not being arrogant and entitled, etc.

    I think that there is a real risk with the type of approach that you are taking. By regarding a man who is attracted to you for your looks as somehow acting from wrong motives you are effectively ruling out just about every real man, so you will be at strong risk of remaining single because nobody was “good enough” for you. That approach lacks humility.

    The second risk is that you are much more likely to open yourself up to pick up artists, because they will be quite happy to lie to you about what they find attractive. After hearing that a few times you will begin to think that only non-Christian men “really understand” you and then the rest is a downhill slide.

    Instead of analysing why a man finds you attractive it would be better for you to focus on whether the man is a man of good character (providing that you are a woman of good character yourself).

  42. Megan May 19, 2012 at 12:52 pm #

    “JUST likes me for looks”

  43. Austin May 25, 2012 at 4:38 am #

    Megan, how would you know that a guy JUST likes you for looks? I think that is a very rare situation, where a couple stays together or even get married just based on looks. Usually when it does happen there is another factor at play as well.

  44. van Rooinek June 14, 2012 at 12:24 am #

    Oh please.

    Firstly…. There is NOT a vast excess of “single” women in church. The excess female population is mostly due to divorcees who turn (or return) to church after things didn’t work out with Mr. Badboy, and want to get equally yoked the next time around. Among truly-single, ie, never married, there’s generally an excess of MEN.

    This was dramatically illustrated for me once when I organized a singles event for the over-30 set at my old church. EVERY man who showed up, was never-married, had no kids yet, was gainfully employed, and was in decent physical shape. ALL of the women were divorced/separated mothers, except for a couple of hopeless fatties. Totally aside from the question of which (if any) of the divorcees were biblically free to remarry, the fact is that such women usually do NOT want a new set of kids with a new spouse. NO relationships got started that night, that’s for sure.

    Secondly…. the main reason why Christian girls are boyfriendless, is that they typically severely overestimate the quality and status level of the man they can attract. Why does every Christian man have to be a Christian “leader”? It’s logically impossible to have an organization of all or mostly “leaders”. And a lot of women seem to be applying the 6/6/6 criterion to dating: 6 feet, 6 figures — or deep 6 him! Face it ladies, most men aren’t that tall (I am, but I know I’m in the minority), and most men willl never make 6 figures — and if they do, it usually takes them til their 40s to get there.

    You should never compromise your MORAL standards in selecting a husband… but you need to learn to be more flexible about the non-moral aspects. Too many Christian women do the opposite: preferring money/power/status/height over godliness, even to the extent of rejecting every decent guy in their church and dating nonbelievers who score higher on the “shallow” criteria.

    Thirdly…. nuclear rejections. I have experienced and observed some really, really nasty turndowns by Christian women who were politely asked out — sometimes involving public humiliation. Many other manospherians also report this This is totally uncalled for, and it’s really a shame that Christian women have a particular reputation for doing this! When the subject of rude turn-downs is brought up, almost invariably someone chimes in with, “Christian women are the WORST!!!” Enough nuclear rejections, and a guy may just decide to give up.

    If a guy you are not interested in, politely asks you out, you OWE it to him, to respond with a comparably polite refusal. If you don’t, then don’t complain to God or man about being single; the guy you DID want, may well have heard of (or even witnessed) the way you humiliated that other guy, and may decide never to expose himself to the risk of similar mistreatment.

    For that matter, even a long series of non-nuclear rejections, can eventually convince a guy to quit trying. I reached that point in my mid-30s, when I said, “Enough! I’m done pursuing, because it NEVER works. From now on, if she’s not interested enough to make the first move, I’m going to have to assume that she’s not interested at all.”

    Fourthly….some Christian women seem to believe that the normal laws of physical, sexual attraction don’t apply to Christian men, and see no reason to keep themselves in reasonable physical shape. We’re not asking for supermodels… just don’t be a fat slob! Most of the single men I hung out with, back in my own single days, were diligent about fitness and were dismayed that so many of our female counterparts just weren’t.

    Fifth and finally… Christians, both men and women, who are serious about their faith and ethics, do not just “have boyfriends/girlfriends” for the hell of it, just to have someone to hang out with (or sleep with). Serious Christians don’t date except for the purpose of seeking a spouse; all else is sin.

  45. Luke June 23, 2012 at 2:43 am #

    On the issue of women’s age and fertility/birth defects. After age 34, there is a roughly one-to-one reduction in health, vitality, and life expectancy for daughters corresponding to advancing maternal age. That is, eggs from a 38-YO mother carry a 4- year (or about 6%) reduction in
    those things for daughters. And, it’s not that they die at 74 instead of 78, with everything
    the same til then. Rather, it’s a reduction in health and life expectancy all through life.
    For this and other reasons, women using their own eggs need to be done having children by early 30s latest (20s better). This was confirmed with a fertility clinic MD, BTW.

  46. Luke June 23, 2012 at 2:43 am #

    I suggest reading Sylvia Ann Hewlett’s book “Creating a Life” also.
    It documents how most women, even the most educated, have absolutely NO idea of how quickly and severely their fertility plummets with age.
    And, how career success is inversely proportional to fecundity in women.
    My term for that is “master’s degree [in women] = not much of a family, and Ph.D. = NO family, more of the time than not. The movie “Idiocracy” is the future, sad to say…

  47. Luke June 23, 2012 at 2:45 am #

    What’s with this site? After 3 lines in a reply, it does some kind of weird bouncing so that I can hardly see what I’m writing. I had to type it in elsewhere, and cut and paste it here.

  48. Greiana November 5, 2012 at 11:56 pm #

    SO GOOD! I completely agree. And although I can totally see myself in that list haha I am learning to move away from it. I think it is so important for young Christian women to understand that there are so many activities that can be done, so many places to go, so many things to do and still be holy. I often think that Christian women (and maybe Christian men too) don’t go to sporting events or single mixers because they think it will somehow move them away from God. it is so absurd! God knows our hearts and it is completely possible to continue to conduct yourself like Christ and go to events and participate in things. There are so many Christian mixers and dances that are going on! When I was in youth group, it was drilled into us that dating was wrong etc. etc. but I think that instead of helping, it actually created socially stunted people who aren’t quite sure how to interact with others. I in no way look down on others like that because I was there not too long ago myself! haha I just hope more Christians read this and get some insight to what is happening and has been happening in the church.

  49. Skye November 21, 2012 at 2:55 am #

    All of these comments (oh yeah and article lol) have made for an interesting read. I’m single, 27, Christian and female so I could say a whole lot here… but I’ll keep my contribution to one point and just say that I’m single because I don’t know where to go to find a christian boyfriend.
    Whenever I go out to a bar, dinner, music festival, club or pub I get asked out. Sometimes even the grocery store, sometimes even on a train. Every male friend of mine has eventually turned around and confessed his love for me or made a move, and it’s to the point now where I won’t leave the house to go to these social places anymore because I don’t want to have to turn someone down. Why do I do that? One reason- they’re not Christians. What would be the point? He can’t have sex with me so why would a secular straight adult man get into a relationship with an attractive woman they can’t have sex with? And for me, why would I want a man to wait for me (as some who truly loved me and cried over me at various times and told me they will) when they’re not Christians and I therefore won’t marry them anyway? That is pretty much my criteria- be a disciple, and have an attractive personality/looks (and I’m into scruffy so don’t mock me with prince charming/supermodel/footballer sarcasm) and be single. THAT’S IT! Why is it soooooooooooooooo hard to find this guy?????

    My mother says I should go to christian conferences. Any other ideas? And please don’t say church, I’m sure we’ve covered enough about why meeting men at church is a dead end.
    Also please don’t mention that baby tick tock stuff to any woman over 30 unless you want to take a huge knife and twist it around in her heart in front of God who sees everything… I guarantee you she already knows this.
    Also, Jason stinks of misogyny. There’s always one.

  50. FuriousFerret November 21, 2012 at 10:06 am #

    Skye,

    Found your issue right here,

    “be a disciple, and have an attractive personality/looks”

    Masculine mentality is the lowest it’s every been in the SWPL category. Men have been made into unattractive effeminate males due to feminism and politcal correctness. This goes triple for men at church. You have high standards for a guy because if your description is honest you are attractive and you know that your market worth is high.

    However, you don’t put out and are unwilling to compromise on this matter. No good deed goes unpushined. Assuming you are attractive you want a comprable guy that is of high status. While they still exists at church, this guy is sought after by virtually every other hot single woman in the church scene due to his increasing rarity. Although, I do want to point out that church alphas tend to be inner betas that most of their alphaness is due to context or looks. See the ultimate church alpha Tim Tebow, total inner beta, extreme contextual alpha everywhere else.

    Here’s the harsh truth. You are going have to settle and settle right now. My advice is go for average looks with confident non effeminate behavior. Due to the modern day culture, you have to give up a lot in other categories (looks, dominance, high status) to fulfill the disciple part of your criteria. Look for the guy in church circles that has masculine presense and overlook physical flaws. You have already passed your prime and it’s time to pound the pavement.

  51. FuriousFerret November 21, 2012 at 10:23 am #

    Also,

    Another major thing to add. Don’t get so hung up about the spritual part as well. He doesn’t have the be a spiritual leader or anything like that. A lot of that is just fluff in my experience anyways. Speaking in Christianese in a pious way. Leading all sorts of pointless social clubs within church.

    Does he pray verbose prayers and put on a show shouldn’t be in your criteria. That’s an church hypergamy type of thing. You shouldn’t really care how churchian he is. You are simply responding to wanting him to church socially dominant and wrapping it up in a postive manner. Don’t care how churchian he is.

    The very fact that the man is a professing Christian and won’t have sex you before marriage is probably good enough. I mean think about it, you are asking for a guy with social intelligence to abstain from sex in this day in age. That is actually really really hard to find.

    I think that the things that these women have to compromise on in terms of hypergamy simply to date an evangelical makes them hyperventilate. Even you give them the list of things that they should settle for and even then it’s really hard to find, I think they go in shock and denail and double down on finding it all.

  52. y81 November 29, 2012 at 8:57 am #

    Skye, I am surprised, if you are that physically attractive, that you can’t find a man at church. My usual warning would be that the ratio is very bad at church, so you can’t meet a man there. But that doesn’t apply to women in the top ten percent or so. One of the girls in our fellowship group, who falls in top ten percent category, met her boyfriend (a visiting misionary) at coffee hour. Maybe you aren’t going to the right church? (Ours is a big city megachurch which means high turnover week to week.) Or why do you say that church is no good for meeting guys?

  53. Andy December 28, 2012 at 12:04 pm #

    Skye probably mistakes all the attention of high value males that just want to bone her thinking that they would actually marry her. High value males will have no problem lowering their standards a bit just to get in a girls pants. But they won’t lower their standards when it comes to actually marrying a girl. this leaves Skye with an incorrect image of her own value.

    This is all speculation on my part though. I have not seen her pictures and i do not know her value. so i could be absolutely wrong here.

  54. Eric May 6, 2013 at 1:12 pm #

    Its backwards for me. All the girls at myyouth group are all taken or too young. It doesnt help that the average girl in arizona moves to yhe next guguy in less than a week. Its gotten to the point where ill gladly date a ” rachet”…lol

  55. ayorinde June 1, 2013 at 11:46 am #

    there should be more training on relating.

  56. Nathaliya June 6, 2013 at 11:29 am #

    I like

  57. Mighty Max November 18, 2013 at 6:35 am #

    I’m a guy and I’ve been at my church for 18 years. I have never dated a girl from my church for 1 reason. I’m into caucasian women, not latin. Because of this, it’s very easy to attend church and focus on God. No distractions at all.

  58. Christian November 24, 2013 at 9:34 am #

    I agree with you that Christian girls don’t date many guys. I have to admit that Christian girls are the most beautiful girls on this planet. Their mind is perfect. Most of them are beautiful in the heart and they believe in God. I like their attitude about relationship and marriage. Christian women consider marriage as a lifeterm commitment. They select the best man to marry with. So, getting married with a Christian girl is like a dream for every guy.

  59. @think@ January 5, 2014 at 2:58 am #

    Women,ladies, here is something for you to consider. You, as the gender, wanted to be treated equally to men and now you are, somewhat. You, ladies, have the same apportunity, if not better, to get educated and find yourself a career. You also have an apportunity to eat right and loose weight, if needed. Also, just because you are the female does not mean that guys will want to date you. Ladies, you wanted equality and you’ve got equality. If you are not dating or finding anyone to meet with, it is your fault. You have the vocal cords and the mouth with lips, which you can use by asking the guy out on the date. Again, you wanted equality and here it is. The only difference between male and female is their sexual orientation. Do not expect guys to always ask you out because they will not. Next, if you’re anything over 25 years old without the career and the degree, education, you’re not brining anything worthwhile to the table. Ask yourselves, if you want the successfull man to date, what makes you think that men will want to date you if you’re not successfull ? Ladies, you can take this as the fact or, twist it any way you want to personally satisfy your self image. However, facts still remain facts regardless if you want to believe it or not.

  60. Blaenwern January 21, 2014 at 5:39 pm #

    “Young women are not taught to think ahead five to ten years and imagine what the man could become, especially with the aid of her ~loving guidance.” The church doesn’t look that way either, in any field. It’s a good thing Samuel did when anointing David and praise the Lord my wife did too

  61. Blaenwern January 21, 2014 at 5:45 pm #

    Yes, fertility starts to decline at 27, but gradually. It starts a steeper decline at 35 but most women can still conceive. It IS risky to wait too long to try to have babies, and most people don’t understand how fertility drops off.

    – More recent studies suggest egg loss is much faster than previously believed.

    Do we believe what science tells us or what the Bible tells us. Sarah had her first child at 90

  62. The_Collapsar January 22, 2014 at 12:41 pm #

    I’m going to go out on a limb and say that divine intervention (required for Sarah’s pregnancy) is not readily available for the average modern woman.

  63. jack January 27, 2014 at 9:22 pm #

    And let’s remember that being fat is controllable, unlike a lot of the things that women judge men over.

  64. neftali February 16, 2014 at 9:24 am #

    Let me say in some ways as well it goes the other way for christian single man, when i was in church they were very pretty attractive church girls who i wanted to date and hv a good time enjoying company with them, however i wasnt there type because the mahority of christian girls have to much of a high standerd for yhem to have a relaitionship with instead of thinking tht a person can be the most living person in mind body soul spirit than a person tht has a high standard. So these christian girls go out with someone with these standards and mostly these guys later on the relationship treat them badlyyy or the love died or the feelings arent the same yet iiiii would try everything in my power to spu e up the relationship again but since i was consider low standards to them i didnt get the chance,mostly churchwomen/girls have issues axnd are foullll more than a girl who us out thereee,peacee!

  65. neftali February 16, 2014 at 9:40 am #

    Let me say in some ways thatt this goes the other way for christian single man too,when i was in church they were very pretty attractive church girls who i wanted to date and hv a good time, enjoying company with them, however i wasnt there type because the majority of christian girls tht ive seen in church have to much of a high standerds in themselves for a guy like me to even be considered in having a relaitionship with them, instead of these church girls thinking tht maybe if they gave me a chance I can be the most loving person in mind body soul spirit than any person they decided to go with. So these christian girls go out with someone with these standards tht they considered datable and mostly these type of guys later on the relationship treat them badlyyy or the love died or the feelings arent anymore the same. Yet iiiii would try everything in my power if they gave me a chance in trying spice up the relationship if it is dying out, but since i was consider low standards to them i didnt get that oppertunity,mostly churchwomen/girls have issues and are foullll more than a girl who is not into church,peacee!

  66. @think@ February 16, 2014 at 9:42 am #

    With your structure and spelling, I’m not surprised.

  67. Megan May 11, 2014 at 9:28 pm #

    This is all disheartening, but then there’s just those girls like me, who ARE overweight (trying to change but still), and have never, ever been approached by any Christian (been approached by strange people, like muslim Malian exchange students) guy. On top of that, Christian and only looking for a Christian husband.

    I’m not picky other than just really wanting a good, honest person to share my life with, and different interests. Physical attractiveness doesn’t matter that much (since I don’t really have anything to offer either, haha), although if he is overweight and say wont go hiking with me because of it, I won’t really be interested as that’s kind of a favorite weekend activity. If say, he was overweight but still totally for those activities it wouldn’t matter :) .

    It’s just so hard, I’m not the one to make the first move. I have no idea where to go to find someone, and I’m extremely intimidated by the prospect. I feel like I’m not good enough for anyone, but I’m afraid to sell myself short. Isn’t it pathetic?

  68. Red May 11, 2014 at 10:24 pm #

    Megan, let me tell you what. I’m not overweight, and Christian men really don’t approach me either. They’re too good for me.

    Something else: I have a dummy account on OkCupid. It actually has nothing to do with me being a weirdo, but has more to do with me picking the right time to float in and out. My young Jane Seymour girl crush is something that I feel unworthy of, yet the multitudes of swamp creatures thinking they have swag would disrespect my sweet Jane avatar.

    “Any luck?” “No?” “Hey.” I nearly choked on tears and throat-drainage of the misdeed misdone to my lady of exceptional graces.

    What do men think, this is some 80s high school movie?

  69. Red May 11, 2014 at 10:26 pm #

    MrMexican asks Jane, “Are you destiny?”

  70. parsnips8174 June 29, 2014 at 1:26 pm #

    “The very fact that the man is a professing Christian and won’t have sex you before marriage is probably good enough. I mean think about it, you are asking for a guy with social intelligence to abstain from sex in this day in age. That is actually really really hard to find. ”

    that’s the same i look for in a woman…but i am somehow not enough. i get discredited on looks, income, the fact that i dont drink . oh they want me to drink, but since i happen to smoke ………..i’d like to find one that doesnt drink, but i can overlook an occasional drink or 2. i mean i am 40 years old now….and very wary of chasing a 20 year old. i am not looking for a fashion model, so why are they. love requires sacrifice….as long as it is only the man who has to sacrifice.

  71. Jill July 3, 2014 at 12:54 pm #

    Wow, I hope this thread continues…good info and insightful, blunt-honest viewpoints. What I gather is this so far:

    1. Men and women both need to cut the crap start being their best. Stop saying “I am waiting for someone who loves me for who I am, like Jesus” or “If someone doesn’t like me for my looks and they can’t see Jesus in me, they probably aren’t a good Christian and not worth it” No. Start looking nice, invest in some decent clothes/haircut/gym membership and look as close as possible to an “attractive” person on the outside as you are inside. Seriously, I look at our church brothers and think: they are really great guys, but I’d love to offer them a makeover or something. I offered it to one of them who refused, saying “I don’t focus on the outwards things”…sorry but, people have eyes.

    2. What exactly IS the situation out there right now? It seems that some people are convinced that there truly is a glut of Christian women over men all across the board. If this is truly the case, we might actually need to seriously consider “settling” in areas like income/career, height, looks, age, etc. However, if the case is that there ARE enough Christian men, then are they all gathered in one particular church? Or are they not spiritually mature or ready to date? What is the deal out there? If I had a way of finding out the members of this very small pool of single Christian men across the nation (those in their 30s must be nearly extinct) am I to just pick the best one I can get out of that pool, or wait for the others to potentially mature in 1-3 years? It’s kind of like shopping; if you go to Nordstrom’s and there’s nothing good on the racks, do you just pick the best pair of jeans that sorta-kinda fits, or do you walk out and hope the next time you come, there will be a pair of jeans that actually fits?

    3. Skye…are you for real? You can’t even go outside without being asked out? And you’re scared of it happening so voraciously, even at dinner, places like the grocery store, that you need to resort to staying at home? What are you, America’s next top Christian model? I don’t think I know any of our attractive ladies who get THAT kind of attention.

  72. jack July 3, 2014 at 2:54 pm #

    Jill-

    You had a great comment until you got into the bit about judging mens’ spiritual maturity.

    This is an error on your part. First, you are not really qualified to judge spiritual maturity of men. This is especially true when you are judging their spiritual maturity on whether or not they are seeking do date or marry you or your female friends. This has a “conflict of interest” aspect to it.

    It also presupposes that you are spiritually mature simply because you are seeking commitment. Well, that depends on what you are seeking to commit to. Are you seeking commitment so that you can have the family and children that you — desire?

    Or are you seeking commitment in order to be a helpmate and blessing to a man?

    The real problem here is that you are using a female value system to judge a man. Men only APPEAR to be immature when you try to compare them to what a woman should want or do. In many ways, women mature much, much more slowly than men.

    But, they are unable to see the difference between their own desires and actual virtues, so they remain in the dark.

    I would encourage you to work on ridding yourself of the notion that you are either able, or called to judge the spiritual maturity of men.

  73. Hank Flanders July 12, 2014 at 5:39 am #

    It’s too bad I didn’t discover this blog years ago. By now, Skye’s probably married and working on her second kid, but I’m still curious as to how such an apparently in-demand, single woman could claim that she didn’t have any Christian suitors. That seems statistically improbable (impossible?). Where does she live, Iraq? (As we know, there are even Christians there).

    As to the fertility discussion, I don’t quite follow the math in that babyzone article. It claims that according that that one study, up to 95% of women have lost 88% of their eggs by the time they reach 30. Therefore, if we say a girl starts losing her eggs through monthly periods at 13, that’s 12 eggs per year and 17 years between 13 and 30:

    (12*17) / 88% = 204/88% = 226 total eggs to start with

    Using their numbers, they’re saying that 95% of women will only have two years’ worth of eggs left (226-204 = 22) and be barren by 32. How many women are barren by 32, let alone 95% of them?

  74. Hana July 12, 2014 at 1:25 pm #

    I think Skye’s story is possible, because I’ve experienced going out in public and being approached by strangers, yet not having that kind of interest from Christian men, and I’m not nearly as attractive as Skye seems to be… And I’m sure that some Christian men have not been interested in me because they don’t find me as attractive as they’d like. Christians have higher standards for who they date, because it’s not just about spotting someone who might be attractive or interesting on the surface – you hold them up against an idealized version of your future husband or wife.

  75. Hank Flanders July 13, 2014 at 3:42 pm #

    Hana, if you and Skye have been approached by STRANGERS, then how do you know what their religion is? Also, just because “some Christian men” might not have been interested in you, that doesn’t preclude some other Christian men from in fact being interested. Skye’s statement was that the ones who approached or confessed their love for her weren’t Christians…like any of them.

  76. Hana July 14, 2014 at 8:27 am #

    Well, I was thinking of an occasion a couple weeks ago where someone who approached me out of the blue said he was a Christian, but only after I asked him. For some reason his only religion question to me was whether I was Muslim! I figure that if someone is approaching a stranger, whose religion he doesn’t know, he must not be a very dedicated Christian. Because wouldn’t a dedicated Christian make it a priority to find someone he shares values with? I can’t really consider someone who walks past me on the sidewalk and asks for my phone number…to me that falls more into the ‘creepy stranger’ category, even if the person is a Christian! (Plus, I looked up his church after he told me what church he supposedly went to, and it seemed to have a lot of ‘prosperity theology.’)

    Maybe the men Skye is encountering are similar…maybe they are Christians, but you have to ask to find out their faith, because they’re too busy trying to get your contact information to tell you. No sincere Christian girl wants that!

  77. Hank Flanders July 14, 2014 at 10:59 am #

    That’s a more understandable position, Hana. However, I’m not sure what a guy is supposed to do to make himself and his spiritual beliefs known to the female population if meeting during everyday encounters is “creepy” and meeting at church like Skye mentioned is a “dead end.”

  78. Maunalani July 18, 2014 at 5:04 pm #

    Guess I have always been in the wrong place, but I always found Christian women to be as rare as hens’ teeth.

  79. Hana July 27, 2014 at 5:01 pm #

    Hank Flanders, in answer to “what is a guy supposed to do…”

    I was in a café using the Internet earlier this evening when a man approached me to make small talk and then…yes…ask me on a date…

    He mentioned that he had been at church in the morning, which church, and where. He also told me his age (too much of an age gap, and I told him so). Yet I still gave him my phone number in the end, as a ‘friend’, which now even surprises me. I guess he just had a totally different way of approaching me than the one a couple weeks ago, even though his mannerisms were quite ‘beta.’ I guess it was because he didn’t ‘zero in on me’ like a lot of other people have, which makes me feel kind of objectified. It takes me a long time to feel comfortable with someone, even if I find them attractive.

    Oh, though, he did make the mistake of saying several times that he was a nice guy who people usually took advantage of. I’m sure some men in the manosphere know the feeling…but it’s probably best not to mention it.

    But it’s very hard to meet single people (because they’re fewer and more scattered) once you’re several years out of university, and this man is well past that! So what really are you supposed to do?

  80. Hank Flanders July 28, 2014 at 6:36 am #

    How much of an age difference is there? Does he look young for his age? What if he hasn’t had many or any sexual partners? Would that help make up for the age difference? If not, is there anything that could, (e.g. money, status, talent, sense of humor, super spirituality), or is he dead in the water?

  81. Hana July 28, 2014 at 9:13 am #

    He was old enough to be my dad, and he had lost his hair.

    Is there anything he could change to be more attractive? Well, he had a very beta personality, the kind of ‘nice guy’ persona that lets people walk over him. He said he was trying to learn how to socialize now because he’d been working too hard when he was younger. I felt sorry for him, because he was trying to learn this as a middle-aged man. Sometimes you have to live with a past that you can’t change.

  82. Hank Flanders July 28, 2014 at 1:46 pm #

    OK, thanks for those answers. I was also wondering what you mean when you say that he didn’t “zero in on” you, and yet, he came up to you, made conversation, and asked you out. Isn’t that kind of zeroing in on you?

  83. Hana July 28, 2014 at 3:18 pm #

    Haha…no, not like others I’m thinking of. He made small talk first, and he’d said hello in the same cafe before.

    Oh boy, how do I explain it . I think I have a particular personality that seems very calm, but enthusiastic too, especially if I’m putting forth an effort to be friendly in a conversation. So, a certain type of person who almost seems to have ADHD is drawn to me. After a few minutes of conversation, they spontaneously tell me a) that I’m really nice or attractive; or b) they invite me to an activity that I’d never normally do.

    Some of this just relates to me, but what doesn’t work about it is that the people in question don’t seem to be the types of people I’d normally hang out with in a friend group or otherwise. I think it’s because people’s first impression of me is not the whole thing. The reason it’s hard to successfully approach a girl in public because there’s no social context to get a bigger picture of who she is. At least cafe man had said hello before and seemed to set a friendly context.

  84. Red July 28, 2014 at 3:44 pm #

    Hana, how hot are you? I’m not hitting on you, I’m a girl.

    This guy might have series issues. I’m guessing he’s an engineer.

  85. Red July 28, 2014 at 3:45 pm #

    Those guys don’t have ADHD, they’re horny.

  86. Red July 28, 2014 at 3:59 pm #

    Anyhow, this guy she’s talking about would never have a chance in hell anyway. Nobody wants an ugly old man. Even if his game is A1, would we actually sleep with this guy? No, he probably smells like crayons and moth balls. I can’t get past that thought for all the money ever minted. I don’t want to do it with an old windbag. If you’re a geezer, you have to date other geezers and wear a shirt.

  87. Red July 28, 2014 at 4:02 pm #

    “I think Skye’s story is possible, because I’ve experienced going out in public and being approached by strangers, yet not having that kind of interest from Christian men, and I’m not nearly as attractive as Skye seems to be… And I’m sure that some Christian men have not been interested in me because they don’t find me as attractive as they’d like. Christians have higher standards for who they date, because it’s not just about spotting someone who might be attractive or interesting on the surface – you hold them up against an idealized version of your future husband or wife.”

    No, this is true 100%.

  88. Hana July 28, 2014 at 5:45 pm #

    Red – maybe the guys you’re thinking of are. The ones I’m thinking of definitely have ADHD. If ADHD means bouncing from topic to topic and not being able to sit still/drive in a straight line :P

  89. Red July 28, 2014 at 9:31 pm #

    Yeah, absolutely.

  90. River and Mountain August 13, 2014 at 6:12 pm #

    I am confused by this discussion. I thought the majority of the country was Christian; if you include mainline protestants, catholics, and orthodox denominations. So I would think you would have it easier than a deist or some other non-conforming person in mating. Also, the aversion against balding men seems archaic. I had no idea there was still that stigma. I am sixty, married with children, and balding… Also, I am a grandson of a mixed marriage (catholic and protestant); if my wife and grandparents had been so narrow-minded, neither my son or I would exist.

  91. Sugarsail January 27, 2015 at 6:41 am #

    Reason #1….they don’t put out until marriage, frigid and have serious sex hangups.

  92. Paula February 6, 2015 at 11:29 am #

    This is such a problem, there has been plenty of boys my age,16, but they never seem to be interested at all!!! All of my friends were so full on and flirted with the boys but nothing ever happened between them, and no new guys seem to be coming to my church for me to actually meet and I’m certainly not going to find a decent christian boy anywhere else…..

  93. Trevor March 15, 2015 at 2:38 pm #

    Would it be weird for this old guy (44) to ask out someone in their early 30s at church? I always pass for around 35 have a full had of hair and I’m 6’2″ 200lbs. There are no women in my age category that I’m ever interested in and plus I’d like to have children. I’ve had non christian women in their late 20s give me their numbers but I’ve declined pursuing them because I want to obey God and marry a Christian woman. Church doesn’t seem to be a very good place for the middle aged to meet someone. Getting a little depressed at the prospect of spending the rest of my days alone.

  94. Samson J. March 17, 2015 at 6:31 pm #

    Would it be weird for this old guy (44) to ask out someone in their early 30s at church?

    No. My father-in-law was 15 years senior to my mother-in-law. Just be prepared for the possibility of rejection.

  95. Brookes April 16, 2015 at 11:30 am #

    I feel weird commenting on a post that is this ancient, but I just stumbled upon today and I can’t resist because this is a topic that I’ve thought about so much. I like your blog and I agree with most of your views, but I think there is a lot more going on under the surface when it comes to the issue you address in this post.

    I think the biggest reason why christian women don’t get dates is because they apply the secular model of dating, which is based on the dynamic of male investment in exchange for sex, to Christian dating. It doesn’t work because there’s no sex. Girls in the church generally expect guys to do all the stuff secular guys do for their girlfriends but refuse to do the stuff that secular girlfriends do for their guys. That’s about as strategically sound as opening up a coffee shop next to Starbucks where you charge 2.25 for coffee, only when you get the 2.25, the customer doesn’t get the coffee. What also sucks about the Christian dating culture is that girls are encouraged by church leadership to demand a guy who “treats them right.” A guy who doesn’t plan extravagant dates and provide the girl with a constant rush of romantic ecstasy (but no sex, of course) is “not leading the relationship.” Treating girls for fancy dinners and expensive gifts is a way to get laid outside of the church, but in the church it is just “what guys are supposed to do.” I think if 51% of the men in our culture got tattoos on their faces and cut their pinkies off to express their love for a girl, dumbass girls in the church would demand that of their men because “it’s what men are supposed to do.” They are such slaves to social convention.

    Furthermore, the while the bible states clearly that sex is for marriage only, the church strongly communicates, although not necessarily explicitly, that marriage doesn’t guarantee sex either. I’ve heard so many teachings about how physical desire for your wife is “just” Eros love, while the “real” kind of love is agape love. “Physical desire is great and all, but what’s REALLY important is having a spiritual connection.” What most people think of as plain vanilla fucking, they call “selfishly taking from your wife to make you feel good.” They communicate the idea that men are fuck-ups that constantly have to apologize for hurting their women just by existing. They say that if you have an expect your wife to be sexual enjoy sex, and to allow you to enjoy sex with her, that you are “unrealistically expecting your wife to be a porn-star.” Problem is, guys weren’t born yesterday. They know that women are sexual and will happily have dirty sex with a guy they’re actually into. So if they marry a Christian woman, chances are their Christian wife will be kinda frigid, and when a woman is frigid, it merely means that she’s frigid with you. Sounds like a raw deal.

  96. Red April 20, 2015 at 8:42 pm #

    jack thought I was Brookes. Whoa, now I know why. He’s the dude version of me. I would literally, word for word say exactly what he said if I were a dude. It’s this weird multi-dimensional experience.

    I think I know what’s going on, from the other side of the gender barrier.

    1. You have one silver dating bullet, because church dating
    2. You go with what looks like the best option: should be easier than hot, still pretty cute, seems devout, acts feminine.
    3. She’s a manipulative fucking ice bitch. She doesn’t tease because she likes you, so much as she teases because she’s never horny or she’s retired (?) from fucking a line of guys hotter than yourself.
    4. You never get anywhere with said E.A.P., because she’s mastered the art of getting things out of men.

    If she’s a retired slut, she probably’s probably a gossip. She gossips about women with their v-cards and about any man she’s not attracted to. If she’s a frigid E.A.P., her whole life probably revolves around getting attention from other males by essentially embodying the Madonna, if the Madonna starred in Audrey Hepburn films.

    Most church women are a mixture of the two, but will favor one side.

    If she’s more like the first girl, the kink in her armor is the very tool she employs: gossip. Your goal to destroying this victim is to reframe the attention you’re getting by her gossip. She broke up with you because you’re too xyz or not 123 enough? You “felt like she wasn’t the one, just because you’re at different walks in your spiritual journey. She’s had a very messy past, and she needs to find a nice, possibly older guy to help her heal. That’s just where God is leading you both.”

    She’s now a dramatic mess that’s unmarriageable. Twist the knife by publicly trying to set her up with homely, nerdy dudes.

    Girl two’s insecurity has inverted into pride. The best thing you can do is knock her down a few pegs: the goal is to turn her pride back into crippling insecurity, which makes her powerless. It’s fairly easy and fairly difficult.

    Easy, because this is someone who is still in her oral or anal phase of sexual maturity. She never grew any older than eight, because her girlyness has always been praised nearly on-par to Godliness. Anything an eight-year-old bully would say to someone would leave her sobbing in tears.

    Difficult, because a reasonably attractive woman who still has her hymen in tact can always bounce back. She’s not like the born-again virgin, who you can defeat once and for all with the implication of being crazy and/ or dirty. The purity princess will maintain her image of coy unachievability until she is banged within the institution of marriage or hits the wall, whichever comes first. The pedestal she’s on may be nearer to earth some days, but it will always be there. So, you’re constantly knocking her off her pedestal, which is difficult, but the actual things you do and say are not difficult.

    Make fun of the way she talks: it’s too high-pitched. Make fun of the dress she wears: it looks like something a little kid would wear. Make fun of the picture/ Bible-versey stuff she posts on Facebook: “no way, it’s another picture of ___…”, “why are you laughing in this picture?”, “No offense, but I’m literally seeing your selfies as every other post in my newsfeed,” “I get the feeling that posting your picture with a Bible verse is a form of idolatry.” Just one light insult every once and a great while, when no one’s expecting it.

    This woman and all her worshippers see her as a minx. Until you’re unimpressed.

    It’s vitally important that you don’t let people get away with cheap moves. Crush the enemy completely. If you don’t make these turds look ridiculous, they will make you ridiculous. One girl is spreading malicious gossip about what a loser you are and the other one is portraying you as a smitten lover who is now undateable to other women.They are using every piece of their essence to emasculate you, so you must use your power of disinterest to de-feminize them. They are bent on making you an object of ridicule, which forces you into the position of verbal self-defense. Don’t put too much thought into it, or spend years WWJD-ing the broken Christian dating market: you’re holding hot coals in your hands, so now’s not the time to think about being polite to people. You have hot coals, and they need to move the fuck out of your way.

    Rest assured, these women are also cutting women like me down. Their goal is to make women like me unpopular, so that they can marry the hawt guys, and damn it, they usually get their way. I can’t tell you how many former connoisseurs of the cock buffet are giving birth announcements, while I’m averaging like a date once every year or two. Women cut other women down in the way they cut men down, BUT men don’t need to interact on their level until they begin dating them. A shithole is a shithole is a shithole. Your mom was probably right: they probably would have made you a bad wife anyway.

    A couple of other thoughts, just randomly:

    Christian celibacy is like living on the streets- the longer you’re there, the less likely you are to get out. You might need to turn a couple of tricks, but that does not make it a whore: you only become a whore if you stay there. :P :P

    When “Christian” married men say bullshit like, “Well, if she’s friggid now, it’s not going to change much after you’re married,” what they actually mean is, “If she doesn’t suck your dick on the first date, the way my wife did, then I can rationalize that my poor decision to marry el horo was a good one. And I can make you feel like a little man if you do better than I did.” Mark Driscoll is a very elegant example of this, what with his butthexing bernakifying wife. He managed to make that slut into a saint by shaming other men.

    You were right about how our way of dating is messed-up. Christians need to decide to do one of two things. They need to either take the Orthodox Jew/Muslim way of marrying young, covering everyone up, and requiring the men to stay with their own kind, or the Gypsy way of dressing the women like prostitutes, not allowing them to see men outside their community, not allowing them to go to first base until proposal, and then blowing a fortune on the wedding. I’ve kind of taken the latter philosophy: I’d rather dress a little sluttier, but not behave like a slut. I know the women of the manosphere tend to do the opposite, and wear sackcloth dresses to make up for their pasts, which is my biggest beef with those blogs. They have no experience with the dating market as a virgin, and don’t know what it takes to stand out when leagues of champion hookers are attaching themselves to the very few thirsty Christian men available. I would tell my late teens/early twenties daughter to wear bikinis to the church retreat, instead of a modest one piece covered by a t-shirt, even if that means going against the rules. It’s like guns: only the good people are getting punished, and the bad ones are going to do what they’re going to do anyway. Don’t wear the neckscarf like the other single women, wear the deep scoop shirt.

  97. Moneiba April 26, 2015 at 9:03 am #

    “They know women are sexual.”

    Yes, but in different degrees from men. Women still don’t solicit male prostitutes, females slut-shame their peers, and no female politician behaves like Bill Clinton.

  98. necessary others April 27, 2015 at 8:13 pm #

    @ neftali I wouldn’t date you. You can’t spell or write a literate sentence to save your life. And, yes, crap like that matters to me. Sue me. Grammar and spelling are the keys to my heart, I guess, haha. ;-)

  99. necessary others April 27, 2015 at 8:41 pm #

    Let’s not discount the impact of the Christian homeschooling movement, too. For the more fundamentalist homeschoolers, their grown daughters are expected to be “stay-at-home daughters” until Prince Charming comes along to woo them away from daddy. I personally know two homeschooling families with this dynamic. One family has four adult children, three of whom still live at home, two of whom are — I’m sorry — unattractive girls in their 30s. Even if they were allowed to have a life outside the home, their viability on the Christian dating marketplace is probably very limited. The other family I know has eight kids. Five of them are adults who *still live at home*. They all seem weirdly asexual to me, as if they have no drives at all — of any kind. Career-wise, love-wise, sex-wise — they all seem like total zeroes, as if all their natural human desires have been ironed out of them by patriarchy. They behave well. They’re “nice.” But big whoop. They’ve been raised to suppress any desires deemed less than godly by those in authority over them and they’ll likely live and die together (but alone) in their parents’ house. It’s sad.

    So fundie homeschooling is screwing up some hearts too.

  100. roubideaux123 April 28, 2015 at 1:16 am #

    Has anyone here actually listed out what the New Testament says about marriage? I remember something along the lines of the Church submitting to Jesus and Jesus loving the church.

    Anyways, the longer I look for a Christian wife. The more I consider marrying an non-Christian. The more I date non-Christians, I have found that I am appreciated for the efforts I have gone to be devoted to my faith, pure, loving, thoughtful, just, educated, healthy, fit, and a whole slew of things that my mother and father instilled into me to be an appropriate husband. It’s weird to hear an atheist keep asking me “why do you have to be so perfect?” or Buddhist keep asking “where did you come from?”… of course they dont feel entirely comfortable giving up their beliefs for me and they want me to sleep with them before marriage. So those pursuits always end.

    Then my parents just say, “ask a girl out at church, it isn’t that hard”. I do, awkwardly at times, but it has rarely been a pleasant experience. Sometimes I am ignored straight to my face… as if I didn’t even exist. I have had so much failure in trying to reach out to Christian women that I actually went to go see a therapist about this after talking to a church leader. After one session, the therapist says I showed signs of a long history of emotional manipulation and abuse by those that had been in my life. For those of you that think I am just running around churches recklessly asking people out… no. It’s like.. maybe 1 to 2 people a year and definitely not all from the same church after getting to know a few people after months of settling.

    “Emotional manipulation and abuse.” When I heard those words I started crying… I just broke down in her office. I knew I didn’t have a happy history of trying to pursue women, but I had no idea that the things I was explaining to her were acts of manipulation and abuse. That these people would just enter my life and just take, take, take and lead me on and trick me into believing that I was some how I am not valuable enough to be had when I slow down, pull away, or ask for fair investment… I’m am rejected… never to be seen again. If we are going to be just friends… it doesn’t mean you can’t do nice things for me or invest in me as a human.

    So where does that leave me? I really don’t know. I have prayed so much about it and have left the issue in God’s hands. Only to have another seeming perfect woman come into my life. Christian, sweet, wants a family, and so on. My heart rises with hope, but anymore I feel as if I have to smother my feelings so as not to feel the disappointment that I have experienced in the past.

    Just push those feelings down deep and pretend I am the last man on earth. I used to dream of being the most awesome husband and father, but the older I get and the more I hear about these reasons as to why … it would be “1 in a million” to be able to make a marriage work. Or things like .. “You are not Catholic enough.”, “You’re not what God wants for me.”. A lot of people telling me what God wants for them and what He doesnt want for me, and often hyper hypocritical.. As if I had no relationship with Christ. Excuses that insinuate that some how the God we both profess to love and adore, would make sure to make is personally know, that I am not marriage material…. for that person.

    So what is it really? I self inventory… and am very critical. I know my short comings, and hold a very palpable conviction about any issues I am going through. Yet, as a Christian I know with out a doubt. My faith is unwavering in knowing the scripture, prayer, praise, and believing. If my faith is alive and growing… then… what?

    Is it my skin color, am i too tall, am i too goofy, am i too muscular, am i too much of a night owl, is it my ankylosing spondylitis, what? Be real with me.

    Yet, then I have these older women in my church and family that know everything about me… keep asking me why I am single. I DONT KNOW!!! I really dont know.

    What does the Almighty say on the issues of marriage in the New Testament because we do live under the New Covenant. Well, the list is very simple. Other than a man and wife binding to each other as one flesh and being equally yoked in their faith. Be faithful, loving, and caring to each other until death do you part. The list is pretty open on all other issues. So why are so many people interjecting God into their relationship decisions… when both candidates are both presumably good Christian people?

    I honestly feel that God could care less about the specifics of which Christian we are all to marry, but care exactly in how they relate to each other and treat each other and is working to provide good opportunities for all us to come along a person in which we can invest in. Not better models of a man for you to continuously upgrade your choices till you meet an actual prince.

    A friend just went through a divorce. When he got married, he was a Christian, but what he found out is this process of where even though he was a “better Christian man” than the other suitors, he was never good enough for his wife. His wife never submitted to him and he kept pouring into her till he was burned up emotionally and spiritually. Now he is an atheist. His pastor calls it the “princess syndrome”. Women that are never happy, nor feel they should submit to their husband though he loves and devotes himself to her. That she is unknowingly… expecting a fairy-tale/perfect life before she has ever lived hers. That some how Christian men should all come riding along as a prince… when in fact all of us are just men of adequate and simple means. Simple looks and doing the best we can. If that isn’t good enough for you, then maybe you don’t deserve us?

    SO why do we have to act like there has to be a divine intervention in whether we have or dont have our relationships? We don’t and shouldn’t. Own up to your own feelings on the matter, and furthermore own up to how you feel about other people. THEY ARE YOUR FEELINGS, not Moses on the Mount commandments from God.

    The elders I know are so perplexed by these issues. They once said being a Christian and single is a non-issue if they are looking to get married. “Christian men need Christian wives and vice versa. What are you all waiting for? A dove to come land on someone’s shoulder? If you have the slightest inclination that it can work… go for it because if you are both devoted to God, then it really shouldn’t matter who is next to you!”

    If being equally yoked in the faith is the main qualifier of who we should be pursuing. It should be that easy, and that hard. Anything more is 99.9% of your own doing and you need to own up to it.

    I know there are a lot of girls that go through this as well, so I am not saying this is purely a men’s point of view. The more I look around… and ask… what the frack is going on here? The more I realize this is a really pervasive issue that is infecting and crippling the body of Christ. This unrealizable goal that we associate with who we think our future partner will be.

    Christ came to fill that gap. … and by worldly standards he was poor, scruffy, a leader of even more scruffier and poorer men, lived on the verge of hunger and thirst, gave his all to everyone and anyone, had the devil taunting him, and was chaste despite and his only female friends were women of ill repute and his mom. Despite the fact that he is the Son of God where he could live in paradise forever and never want or be with hardship. No, if Jesus is the measure of who we are supposed to be looking for in a partner… then I am ashamed of the way we treat each other.

    I’m a mixed breed guy (1/4 parts Lakota, French, Swedish, Irish), I stand 6’4″ with a muscular build. I have a strong faith, but I dont go to church all the time. I do pray often. I have had a few huge prayers come thru. I mean like.. HUGE. I have had some spotty times of reading my BIble, but much better as of this new year. I did memorize nearly all the Bible in my youth and remember a lot still. I love to sing in church. No, I really do. I love knitty gritty detailed sermons where we pick apart the history and particulars of the verses. I have a Bachelors in Environment Design and am working on my Masters in Architecture. I have a future job at a small firm called Blue Star Studios. I work hard. Really hard. I love going to the movies. I suffer from ankylosing spondylitis, part of my spine is fused. It puts me into a lot of pain from time to time, but I go through chemo and infusion treatments that help a lot. For now it is an incurable condition but thankfully is only passed down through the female genes so I wont give this Scandinavian gene to my kids. It also means that I only have around 20-30 more years left in me to be an active and productive human… and I hope longer than that in just living and loving everyone I can till my clock runs up. I just want to love someone with all my heart and just be the awesomest at doing all these ridiculously overly romantic things for a woman and being the best dad, but I also fight lust from time to time as the years roll on. I seriously cant wait to be miserable with the issues that come with marriage and parenting. I struggle with the idea of adopting or dating single moms, though, but if it can happen. I want it to. I am 29 and single. It has felt like an eternity. I am slow to anger, but sometimes passive aggressive when my buttons are really pushed. I’d rather be a peace maker, but there have been a few occasions where I learned how my muscles can hurt others. I am very tidy at times, then sometimes a complete mess. I love smiling at people, but often am to shy to follow it up. I come from a middle class family that has been through a lot of highs and lows,d and those hard times have taught me a lot of what is necessary. Family. I really dont care what “class” of family I live or marry into. I just want what works, is best, and what God blesses me with. These are just little facets of myself I have learned over time… … on and on… but at the end of the day. Christ is my all.

    Wanna go on a date?

  101. necessary others April 28, 2015 at 6:08 pm #

    roubideaux123 Well, it’s a little hard to follow your thought process, to be honest, but at one point you said, ” What are you all waiting for? A dove to come land on someone’s shoulder?” I guess I’d ask you the same. What are you waiting for? You said you ask out only 1 or 2 girls a year. Uhm, if you want to get married, you need to be asking out more girls than that — or try eHarmony or christianmatch.com or something. I don’t know what’s happened for you on the dating front that would lead a therapist to say you’re a victim of emotional manipulation and/or abuse because, unfortunately, rejection is frequently the name of the game in dating. In the end, getting married needs to matter more to you than getting rejected. My brother didn’t get married until 35 but he asked girls out and went on dates all the time. He put himself out there because he wanted it, but at the same time, he didn’t act desperate about it. He pursued marriage like any other goal. Who cares if people think you’re “recklessly asking girls out”? It’s your life. Other than praying for God to deliver the perfect woman to your doorstep, how else are you going to find her if you don’t put yourself out there — risk of rejection be damned?

    And don’t be too quick to say you “can’t wait to be miserable with the issues that come with marriage and parenting.” You don’t know what you’re saying. Marriage misery is some of the worst misery a person can experience. Don’t think that all your problems will be magically solved because you have a partner. They won’t. In fact, they may double.

    One red flag in your comment: “I’d rather be a peace maker, but there have been a few occasions where I learned how my muscles can hurt others.” What does this mean? Have you hit people or hit women? I’m not sure what this means, but as a woman, I don’t like the way that sounds. If I heard a man say that to me in a dating context, I’d run the other way immediately. If you do have issues with physical aggression, you absolutely need to work on that before you become a husband. If you mean something else by that comment, maybe you could explain what it is because that’s how I read it.

  102. roubideaux123 April 29, 2015 at 10:24 pm #

    @necessary_others

    Sigh.. let the laundry fly I guess.

    I feel like we have a lot to learn from each other. Maybe, I don’t know.

    This isn’t about being hurt when hearing the word “NO” or that it didn’t work out and you guys called it quits. I can handle those weekend heartbreaks. I wish I heard more people say no, and have had an equitable discussion like adults. Rather than saying or taking action in things that directly mean a future and commitment from one another only to act like a complete butthead in the face of it all.

    Example one: Her name will be Kari. We were talking for months on end and finally decided to started seeing each other. In this period of time i got accustomed to her making plans as well and I was excited about them because it generally meant I would learn something new. Specific statements like: “Are you free Sat.? (me: yes!) Good, I can’t wait to see you again and I am going to take you water boarding!” Saturday rolled around and I couldn’t get a hold of her. So while I was waiting I attended a festival at a nearby park. While there I ran into her with another guy, though they didn’t see me. I texted, and they both looked at it and ignored it. A few days later i prodded, and no answer. Then a week later I revealed I knew what happened. Then she said I never mattered and that it is my fault for believing her. Because she is suddenly just a “chaotic and adventurous girl”…”it would have been 1 in a million for us to get together” What???? Why were we even seeing each other or why were you even talking to me????

    OR

    I had a housemate for 3 out of my 4 years of undergrad. She was my best friend and our friends called us the “old couple” because despite both of us having our own dating lives we were pretty seamless in our friendship. She probably slept and studied more in my room than I did. Yet, since I graduated first, the next year she invited me to come back and visit promising a big adventure. So I did, and when I showed up she was no where to be found. I poked around town, and kept trying to get a hold of her. Finally before I had to fly out, I demanded an answer from her. She said that if I had any lingering feelings of kinship with her that it wasn’t her fault, and that I never had to be her friend in the first place. This, after all the years of living together and taking care of each other thru thick and thin. Promising to be friends even though we may be old and married. Wow…. some class. All those times I stood up for her or comforted her while her army boyfriend abused her (he literally pistol whipped her), or pushed and encouraged her to chase her dreams in pageants (she was so close to becoming Miss Colorado this year… SO CLOSE!). Well she is over him and making history for Colorado, that’s good, but.. wow. I dunno, every time I think of her. It hurts, but she is a role model for Christian girls she endorses now.. so I keep my mouth shut and pretend I am okay with it.

    OR

    Met this girl in college groups at church. I pursued her but she declined. I left and went to graduate school, and then she started pursuing me. After a while of seeing each other and being committed to each other. She asked me to only love her and to not leave her for my summer job. So I did and cancelled my summer internship and looked for one closer to home. She started to develop some odd habits, but asked me to respect them. So I did, but then I got back a tablet I loaned her. After a while I powered it up and all her fb messenger messages started updating and displaying themselves. I found out that the only reason she was dating me was to use me as a cover for her, sleeping with two friends, and they began to suspect each other. Then after further investigation it turns out she was sleeping with two other men for monetary and material gain. All the while playing the roll of a typical Christian college student.

    After finding that out I didn’t eat for three weeks, disappeared for a week and was found at a lake freezing in the rain. All I could do was just walk… my heart and soul felt gutted.

    OR

    Finally after three years of rebuilding my heart and confidence. I started seeking out a few people at church, but honestly I was scared. So i finally capitulated and joined ChristianMingle, and met this wonderful girl. We dated exclusively for almost a year and both admitted that we both had desire for the other, but because of past deceits my heart was just slow to warm up to make a final commitment. YET, I know I could spend forever with her. So i keep investing in her. She seemed like the perfect person that I could trust and develop my faith with. We could talk forever! I asked her to be patient with me, and she said she will always be there for me. Even if things eventually don’t work out, she affirmed that she will always be my friend, but she confirms she is falling for me. Then my health began to fail again. Like clock work in Spring. She knew about it and she had been with me to prior chemo / infusion treatments. I was barely able to operate and go to class. She was unhappy with the sudden change, but she said she will be there for me. Then at my next chemo / infusion treatment, she never showed up. She wouldn’t respond, and separated from me in all forms of social media. A week later, I hear through the grape vine of friends at church… She is dating another guy suddenly, then a week later she is in a relationship with the love of her life. I hear she says “God finally brought along her perfect match”.

    THAT IS MANIPULATION, THAT IS ABUSE, if you ask people to be apart of your life and then you deceive or string them along until it isn’t convenient anymore. I am sorry if the simple phrases I used before don’t carry much weight for you, but it seems to be a part of a larger cancer that exists in Christian dating. Are you comfortable with this behavior?

    When did our words as Christians become so empty of action? Or maybe I am just good at meeting those types of people. Like some horrible sitcom remake of 7th Heaven. I ask God all the time. Please let me run into someone that will just be true to me. When did letting your yes be yes and your no be no fall out of style? …or trying to use God as an excuse for our crappy reasons to be so crappy to others.

    Yes, I will be quick to say I want that misery because I love doing it. Right now I live with extended family and I am basically their children’s nanny.. errr the male equivalent there of. There is nothing more rewarding than seeing their eyes light up with knowledge and intelligence despite the hardship.

    Who said that problems will go away? Nobody? Not even Jesus said that, soooo what are you getting at? I mean… it literally says it in the scripture that life gets harder just for being a Christian, but there is a twist on that. it shouldn’t be Christians making life harder on each other.

    I was raised in an environment where challenges or risks were to be overcome… not avoided because they were inconvenient. If I wanted something, I had to earn it. So I literally had a self paying job from 5th grade on. (not doing chores or taking money from mom or dad). In such pursuits I have worked on drilling rigs, roustabouts, harvest crews, manufacturing lines, lawn care teams. As well as taxation, assessment and gis teams for the government and now finally an architecture desk in a private sector job.

    I know life is hard.

    In helping raise the kids around me and even my brother for most of his early years I think it isn’t all that bad. Sure, stinky, annoying, and mind numbing at times, but worth the reward. All I have to really tell myself is would I rather be changing diapers or be welding metal pipes for a natural gas line in the middle of nowhere with a rugged crew and no ice for our drinks in the the heat of July, or perhaps driving a combine alone for 14 hrs straight in August that has no A/C. There was almost a decade that I had to raise my brother when my mother was bedridden due to TMJ and fibromyalgia. Dad was working all day to make sure we were provided for while she went through treatment. Just me and my brother. I dunno, I dont see how loving or taking care of another can be too burdensome. Especially if they are committed to you, I think my parents are prime example of that. I know life can be stressful, but if we are committed to each other… then why worry about those superficial stresses? I dunno… I think it is a beautiful endeavor. I know I was rough as a child at times.. and disobedient and reckless. So why would I think that if I had children… it would be any different?

    Hmm, It maybe could have been differently worded but the statement is of course a life times worth of experience all packed up into one line. To elaborate:

    Yes, I played a lot of sports and have had to defend myself from the throws of degenerates. I had full ride scholarships to play football and to study architecture upon leaving high school. I chose architecture. Yet, growing up I was bathed in physical competition, even my girlfriend in 8th grade was a rodeo girl and joined the football team (yes, I had to hit her in football for the position she decided to played, but she quit after a month… so sad, she was doing so well). I played every sport available from the time they became available for my age all the way through high school, and yes. with my strength, I came to know I can crush or subdue other men in a competitive and sporting nature.

    Yet, several times in tough situations I had to act in defence of others. Like when a guy was beating his girlfriend in my front yard and several other times when guys made aggressive advances to my friends or housemates in college. In these events people were in fact hurt sometimes. Broken noses, sprained wrists, injured ribs.

    It escapes me as to why a man would use anything remotely forceful with a woman except in the rare circumstance that she is not in control off herself or intentionally hurting others. Which I can also speak to, as one night a drunk or drugged girl broke into my room and began to undress and sexually assault my body (sigh…). After waking up to jostling and the obvious presence of another body in my bed. I threw her off and called for my housemates which were asleep in the room and in the adjacent room. She started coming back.. trying to do all the same things. I asked her what she was trying to do but it was like dealing with an animal. Just incoherent… grossness. Every time I tried leave she would grab onto me. So I chose to subdue her and she complained I was hurting her. My housemates were slow waking up, but when they realized this wasn’t a dream and was in fact reality they kicked into gear (a deranaged college girl came through our open window and started to strip and do sexually explicit things) I began to let up. BUT, she started to do sexually explicit things again. So with their help I subdued her again and she said it hurt. I didn’t care. Her actions were disgusting and violating, and my housemates helped put her clothes back on and finally got her out of my room. After she heard we were calling the cops she bolted. The cops never found her even though I was pretty sure she went in a certain house. So, I endured a sexual assault as well. The police certain felt that what I did was right despite the circumstances.. so your point?

    I dunno, I guess I don’t believe in being a flaccid man that can’t defend himself or the weak around him if all efforts for peaceful and coherent resolution fail. Whether the trouble come from a woman or a man, and yes even if it hurts them. You are scared of this protective nature?

    One time some girls I knew where fighting and really tearing at each other and I intervened and physically removed them from each despite their whining that the other was guilty and that I was being too mean and rough in separating them. Was I wrong for prying them off each other? I dunno, several days later they both thanked me individually for doing what I did.

    My mother is a lawyer and worked as a guardian ad litem for the state. Sometimes as a child I had to ride along, sit in her office, or go to court with her because she couldn’t find a babysitter at times. I have seen first hand how physically abusive women can be. To you it might be a foreign concept, but I have witnessed cases where my mom had to be escorted into houses with state patrol. For the specific circumstance of removing starving children from a house while their mother sharpened knives to intimidate the shotgun carrying officers and her children, a husband being brought into court with a fractured skull to testify against his wife for beating him because he wasn’t making enough money, or even a mother trying to hide the fact that she locked their “ugly” disabled son in a closet for 8 years straight and beat him when he wanted to come out. I know physical violence towards women happens more, (it’s gross) but it does go both ways. It also says in the Bible that men (though it says husbands) are not supposed to be harsh to their wives. I believe it is also safe to say that this also includes friends and the general pubic. All you have to do is reach out to the undeserved and needy to know that it goes both ways in a way more frequent manner than anybody in a privileged lifestyle would know.

    I can see why you would think that a statement about using strength and hurting others would be a flag to you, but for me it is a general qualifying statement filled with history of all things I have been apart of and endured. I’d rather make peace with a person, but if you come at me and intend to harm me beyond a reasonable means of physical engagement (like I am going suffer irreversible harm; like you stabbing me, running me over with your car, hitting me over the head with a pan, yes these actually happened to other men by women) I am going to act, and you may get hurt. I would expect you to say the same thing too about men, but please dont disparage a man that is willing to admit that he will stand up for himself or others in the face of violence. I always advocate for peace between people, there are many verses on this matter in the New Testament you know.

    The world is gross, disgusting, and rotten. So I find it really surprising or find it very disappointing and even hurtful when I see Christians treating each other so casually in the ways that are inherent in the world(sometimes even worse). Of course I am speaking in this from my life experiences in dating, but the same can be said from a girls point of view, or completely different views. I am not denying that. I guess I am seeking some resolution or understanding for my circumstances.

    So in dating why is it so hard to ask people to be straight up in their Yes or No. Why do we have to act, like their has to be some divine revelation, or be such douches in playing games with each others hearts? Yes or No, It is simple as that, and if you change your mind later, LET SOMEONE KNOW!!! …and quit deceiving one another… geeze.

    Thanks for your reply. Looking back, I see that I should have edited in word then submitted to avoid some confusion, it was rather late and I coudnt sleep with the pain I had when I was writing that. Perhaps my pain meds were kicking in a little too much! This happens every once in a while.

  103. Ryan April 30, 2015 at 7:45 pm #

    Where are all these cute Christian girls in their late 20’s/early 30’s at? I wish my church had that problem. I think most girls who stay single that long are looking for a man that doesn’t exist. It’s an ugly circle and no wonder Christians are so messed up. Everyone has this standard of partner that probably isn’t real. I don’t want to date the ugly girls and the attractive girls don’t want to date me and vice versa. Oh well. Hopefully Jesus comes soon and none of us have to worry about it anymore.

  104. Anna May 12, 2015 at 5:30 pm #

    Megan: if you look around at various churches and community events, I have confidence you’ll find someone.

    As a SWF, 31, I’ve been observing conservative Christian communities for around 15 years now. As teens, my peers wouldn’t date, while a few got pregnant (!). Others married right out of high school (now divorced) or right after college (more likely still together). Sometimes they seemed perfect for each other but still divorced; other times they were odd matches in terms of personality, but still made it work. Few dated in college, and the girls from 22-30 struggled in our small groups as the gender ratio (and attractiveness) as balanced, but the guys were reluctant to ask any girl out, whether she was a 4, 6, or 8. I watched a stream of guys approach the 2-3 gorgeous, gracious female leaders and be turned down; a classic ‘beautiful mind’ problem.

    Many of these twenty-something girls could have saved some heartache by changing churches and/or dating in the 30-35 year old range of guys who are suddenly ready to settle down; these guys aren’t often at the young people or college groups, and may not attend regularly on Sundays, but they’re open to religion; connecting with them can be a challenge. Even the 3s and 4s and 5s, girls I had pegged as difficult or chubby, have mostly been married and started having children by their early thirties. So if the desire to marry is there, and the flexibility to try different churches and settle with a guy who’s ok/decent/a good guy/not outstanding, I think many women will successful find someone.

    I’m not married but in many ways it’s been a choice; I enjoy living abroad and travelling, and few good guys/Christian guys want to live a wandering life. I respect that, and hope to find a fellow wanderer with a good heart, with kids/divorced or no. (Side note: I suspect guys google for this page when they’re fed up with Xian girls, and girls google when they’re lonely for a guy. So… selection bias in who’s commenting? :-))

    TL;DR: most of the guys and girls who struggled with honest hearts have found someone. I’m wishing the best to all of you, Christian or not, jaded or not — may you find people you enjoy.

  105. necessary others May 13, 2015 at 11:17 am #

    Are you aware you responded with a nearly 3000-word comment? Do you actually expect a stranger on the Internet to take that all in? I’m a writer, editor, and English teacher by profession and I can’t make heads or tails of what you’re saying. This is not an error of comprehension on my part. It’s a problem with your communication skills. Honestly, you sound as if you’re trapped in a victimhood mentality. Every example you gave was a story of how someone did you wrong. You even acted victimized that I mentioned there was a red flag in something you said regarding physical violence. ANY normal woman would think that. You seem to want to attract a woman, so – as a woman — I’m simply telling you that the way you phrased what you said raised a red flag.

    Frankly, your entire response raises a red flag because, again, you’re trapped in a victim mentality. I don’t care how “manly” you may seem or appear or how much you don’t want to be a “flaccid” male, you are allowing yourself to remain victimized mentally and, well, that ain’t manly. You’re replaying negative scenarios in your head and mentally feasting on those again and again. I don’t know if you were sexually assaulted or not, but my advice to you is to seek the help of a good counselor who won’t simply validate your “woe-is-me” mantra, but someone who will help you move past it. Women don’t want to be around a man who acts victimized. They want to be around a man who’s strong and secure in himself. You’re not — or you wouldn’t be writing 3000 words in a blog comment to strangers recounting the various wrongs done to you over the years. You’d get over them and move on. Do you engage women this way in person? I truly hope not. If so, I can see at least part of your problem.

    I’m sorry to sound tough on you, but you need some tough love to get out of this pit you’re wallowing in. I’m sorry people have treated you poorly. People do that. Christians too. It’s life. It sucks sometimes. I could tell you my many many sob stories too, but I won’t. Ask God to help you to break out of this negative thought cycle you’re in. I mean, is it possible that other women notice this about you, not just me? Just a thought. You need to break this thought process before you EVER get married or – trust me – you’ll be utterly miserable and you’ll make a woman utterly miserable too. Or do you think the misery you replay in your head won’t transfer into your marriage? As my parents always told me, “You take yourself with you wherever you go.” Stop replaying all your victim scenarios. It’s a turn-off to women.

  106. necessary others May 14, 2015 at 12:27 pm #

    @roubideaux123 I meant to add this: You can’t possibly understand the challenges a marriage can bring into your life. Sorry. You just don’t know. I do. You said, ” I dont see how loving or taking care of another can be too burdensome.” Exactly! You don’t *see* it. If you did, you wouldn’t be so dismissive about the kind of pain that marriage can bring.

    What you call MANIPULATION and ABUSE (capital letters, no less) most people would call someone being a jerk to you. Everybody has been through this treatment in romantic relationships — everyone! — but you don’t eat for three weeks, disappear, and are found freezing by a lake. These are not normal coping skills. You haven’t been treated well at times, but YOU are part of the problem. It’s not just everyone else’s fault. You need help to not elevate your romantic problems in life to epic insurmountable dramas, otherwise marriage is going to kill you.

  107. thedeti May 15, 2015 at 6:24 am #

    Roubideaux:

    necessary is mostly correct here. You come off as unattractive to women because you’re not secure in yourself.

    The other part of your problem is — and this is key — you define yourself by how women perceive you and how much they allow you (or not) into their lives. You have chosen to experience the world through wishing to be a husband and father first; and a man second. You have it exactly backwards.

    I know this because you describe your life thus: when a woman comes along and gives you some attention, you drop everything else in your life and immediately give her top priority. You gave up a summer internship to be close to a woman who said she loved you. You make yourself immediately available, without limitation or condition, to any woman who shows any romantic interest in you.

    You’ve bought into the modern Churchian lie that says that a man’s highest and best use is as a husband to some woman, and as a father to children. These are noble pursuits, but are secondary, because he can’t carry them out unless and until he has his identity as a man sorted out first. He cannot be a loving husband or an effective father until he knows who and what he is as a man, first. There’s more to it than having a job and some bank. There’s more to it than being able to get dates and have sex with women.

    I won’t lie to you and tell you I have all the answers. But I do know that being good at being a man does not involve putting women first. I do know that a man does not prioritize any woman he’s not married to. I do know that even if a man is married to a woman, he does not allow her to direct the course of the relationship. I do know that a man does not compromise professional or educational opportunities for a woman. I do know that a man must have a mission, and that that mission cannot be husband to a woman and father to children.

    Get a mission. Find out what you’re all about. Get secure in that mission. Join a group of men who will build you up and help you. That group cannot be a namby pamby pussified group of Nancy boys at the local church who drone on about the dangers of pornography and your needing an “accountability partner” and “bouncing your eyes” whenever you see good looking women.

    Just my two cents, Roubideaux.

  108. thedeti May 15, 2015 at 6:30 am #

    Roubideaux:

    Read this:

    http://www.justfourguys.com/good-christian-men-think-twice/

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