Like paper near a flame.

3 Oct

One consistent drum beat I’ve heard in the manosphere is that of a nearly obsessive fear of marrying a woman with a low or nonexistent sex drive.  This coincides with the idea that a man needs to “test drive” a woman before shackling himself to her with a ring, because what if she never puts out after the wedding night and horror of horrors you didn’t know this was going to happen because like a chivalrous white knight idiot you never had sex with her before the wedding?  Or – even worse – what if she only wants to have sex for a couple of years and then, after she gets her baby, she never wants to have sex again?  Sure, there’s a lot of derision of Carousel riders, but when push comes to shove, at least a Carousel rider is going to let you ride.  (Well, until she finds the next rider and takes half of your fortune with her, but at least you got your turn, which for most men seems to be better than no turn at all.)

In the Christian community, male fear of a sexless marriage seems to be as widespread as outside the church, but even more intense and much more underground.  It’s intense because devout Christian men know that they have one shot at marriage, which in turn is their one shot at finding a sex partner for life, and underground because Christians like to pretend that sex is a mystery that doesn’t exist don’t like to talk much about sex other than “Teens, don’t do it.”  For the Christian alpha male, there’s not much cause to worry – Christian alpha males almost always get snapped up right after college, or, if they delay marriage, whenever they feel like it’s finally time to leave and cleave…er, I mean, whenever the Holy Spirit speaks to them about the next season of life.  (As has been said here before, did anyone ever believe that Christian dating guru, pastor-to-be, megaflirt Joshua Harris was going to have genuine trouble finding a wife?)  It’s really the Christian beta males who must trek through Mordor to get to Mount Doom, only to possibly discover Gollum waiting to chomp off their finger.

The conundrum facing Christian beta males seems obvious:  Christian women don’t want beta males any more than non-Christian women do, Christian women have been trained not to give any signals of attraction, Christian women want to be “friends” for an unspecified amount of time first…yet Christian women expect men to “man up” and charge ahead, brandishing leadership skills in every facet of life, but not in too sexy a way, lest he be branded a sex-craved deviant or cause a sister (whom he should be treating with absolute purity) to stumble, but not so unsexy that the woman would rather wash her hair.  And a brother is somehow supposed to divine his future wife’s sex drive out of this?

While I empathize with Christian men facing the Leviathan of holy dating, I also think that the fear of marrying a low sex-drive woman is overblown.  I don’t know any single Christian women who are not confirmed spinsters who aren’t jonesing for sex.  As one of my single Christian female friends has said on a number of occasions, “I need to get married soon, because I’m ready to explode.”  It’s like shaking an unopened 2-liter bottle of soda and leaving the cap on.  You may not see a ton of bubbles, but the pressure is most definitely building up inside.  Men, please be encouraged that you won’t be buying a bottle of soda that is flat, but a bottle that is very agitated and waiting for the right time to unleash a torrent of passion.*

Interestingly, this subject came up in the comments of a recent Boundless post.  What began as comments to the female follow-up to “I’ll Go Out With You If…” (featuring the usual drivel) somehow morphed into some women admitting that yes, they did have sex drives that they were working to keep a lid on.  In one comment, a poster named Ashley summed it up thusly:

This is probably unrelated to the actual topic at hand, but I have never been able to explain this to a guy in a way that he can understand. There’s just no good way to tell someone, “I am so fantastically, unrestrainedly into you that I’m going to need us to work on the relational/emotional/intellectual connection here and I am going to need you to not. touch. me. until we talk about it — and I really have to warn you, I may need you to pull the breaks on me.”

Commenter Andrea-Elena responded:

Or how about…

I haven’t gotten to be physical much with guys in my life and I’m longing so much to touch and do all those things that even if I’m not over-the-moon into you, I might still pounce on you just ’cause I like you enough and I find you attractive enough and women get horny too!!!

I feel as if I ought to have a business-size card with that on it to give to a guy when we first start dating.

I was inexperienced until the age of 23. So I didn’t really know my own “strength” (heh, heh). I didn’t know I could be or would ever be the aggressor in making out. And there were times I was. Sure, that’ll be awesome when I’m someone’s wife. But it’s awfully dangerous during dating, especially at the beginning stages when it’s so easy for the physical bonding to escalate and go at a much more rapid pace than the “who we are as people” aspect of getting to know each other. And some guys don’t defend their own boundaries very well at times. Just as some of us gals don’t either at times.

So, men, take heart.  Chastity is not synonymous with a lack of sex drive.  Sometimes women may seem distant with affection because it’s the only way they can stop the snowball from accelerating down the mountain.  That said, I think it’s prudent for a couple who are getting serious to talk about sexual expectations in marriage.  If those expectations don’t line up and there doesn’t seem to be a way (or willingness) to make them line up, then the relationship really should be reconsidered.  Generally speaking, instead of spending a lot of time worrying about whether or not his future wife is going to want to have sex with him, a smart man would use that time to work on making himself so irresistible that his wife would have no choice but to jump him and have her way with him.

* Another way of putting it:  I DIDN’T WAIT THIS LONG SO I COULD HAVE FIVE MINUTES OF LAME, DUTIFUL SEX ONCE A MONTH.

Advertisements

75 Responses to “Like paper near a flame.”

  1. Joseph Dantes October 4, 2010 at 12:16 am #

    You’re basically denying the problem exists, i.e. that low sex drive women exist, and that inexperienced males will invest without recognizing them. Either that or you’re ending the article on an upbeat note without offering a solution.

    The way I see it, there are two possible solutions. 1. let Christian males become experienced with a rumpspringa style period of PUA fornication. This was my choice. 2. Permit polygamy so the cold fish have to compete in a kettle.

  2. Risky Business October 4, 2010 at 1:35 am #

    rumpspringa. haha

  3. Cane Caldo October 4, 2010 at 6:01 am #

    “While I empathize with Christian men facing the Leviathan of holy dating, I also think that the fear of marrying a low sex-drive woman is overblown.”

    True to a point. This is low-risk if you’re measure the percentage of women who are inherently frigid; but extremely high-risk if you’re measuring the consequences of failure. Men get married to have sex. If that is thwarted…well, despite modern notions, adultery isn’t just having sex outside of marriage.

    Besides, the real risk is after the kids are born. It’s a natural temptation for a woman to slip out of wife-mode and into mother-mode. I’m reminded of the church that focuses on conversions (“seekers”, et al) while ignoring discipleship; good intentions gone destructively awry.

  4. Cane Caldo October 4, 2010 at 6:11 am #

    “All I wanna do is zooma-zoom-zoom and-a boom-boom! Just spring ya rump!”

    To the larger point, Haley did offer a good solution: Be attractive. JD’s choice 2 is accurate, but too narrowly applied. One may remove himself from the dating market without removing himself from the minds of other women. The trick is to be disciplined to be your best in general–NOT to try to make her happy.

  5. Toz October 4, 2010 at 6:21 am #

    Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve never viewed this as a problem. For almost every dating couple at church I’ve known, the problem is keeping hands off each other, not keeping them on (same is true for my church-dating experience).

    Marriage does change things quite a bit. The allure of it being off-limits is no longer there, which accounts for a little bit of sex-drive loss. But the major thing is that husbands naturally become a little more beta. There probably are women that have abnormally low sex-drives, but I would venture to guess that most of them just don’t have an alpha hubby and that’s to blame more than anything else.

  6. nothingbutthetruth October 4, 2010 at 6:51 am #

    Well, the fact that some Christian women are having trouble to control their sex drive because of chastity does not say anything about sexless marriages.

    It is impossible to judge the horniness of a person out of his/her horniness in times of deprivation.

    If a man is deprived of food, he is going to think of food all the time. If his religion forbids him to eat, he will be obsessed by food. This does not mean that the guy is a big-eater.

    When the fast ends, the guy is going to eat a lot. After their needs have been covered, he will go back to his average frequency of eating. Maybe he does not like to eat a lot but, being deprived of food make him look like an obsessive eater.

    The same way, after a year of marital sex, the woman . If the woman only needs a sexual relationship per month, this will be it.

    Moreover, you are talking about young women, who are flooded by hormones. Woman’s desire changes with time, especially when kids are born.

    “I need to get married soon, because I’m ready to explode.”

    This is the best argument for premarital sex. You don’t marry because you are desperate for sex, which is a really bad idea.

  7. Cane Caldo October 4, 2010 at 7:13 am #

    Huh? That’s the only reason to marry.

  8. Bob October 4, 2010 at 7:18 am #

    Many men outside of the manosphere simply do not believe their wife’s sex drive is even partially under their control. That includes a good proportion of Christian males. As far as they know, sex is likely to disappear in a year or two, and never, ever come back – and there’s nothing they know of that they can do about it.

    These guys are not taught to use the occasional Alpha Male behavior, and they have no opportunity to see its effects for themselves in a way that makes the result clear to them.

    So this fear is going to be endemic to the Christian community until, as you’ve already pointed out elsewhere, the congregations get a clue and start being more honest with themselves.

    Your post is a fine explanation for the manosphere, but does not addres the problems of Christian men. Even Christian men who have a clue about sex drive understand that sex drive during abstinence has no relation to sex drive during marriage.

    I’m afraid I don’t have any solution for raising awareness among the church, though. I’ve long since taken my religion out of the organized scene.

  9. Wayfinder October 4, 2010 at 7:33 am #

    Well I agree that premarital eagerness doesn’t necessarily reflect how she’s going to feel after the honeymoon, I don’t view “test-driving” as a solution. First because I actually believe that it’s wrong, but secondly because even when you do have sex first that’s still no indication of how it’s going to be afterwards.

    How many times have guys said that their girlfriends stopped putting out after they became wives? It’s a constant secular fear too.

    I’m not interested in sex without a committed relationship for myself; I’d much rather find a solution to this division between the sexes that doesn’t involve whoring myself out in the hookup scene.

  10. ASDF October 4, 2010 at 8:04 am #

    As others have said, this is probably one issue where the experience of married couples would be germane. How frequently do the couples in your church get it on after 10 years of marriage?

  11. ASDF October 4, 2010 at 8:36 am #

    Although I guess that applies to any married couple.

  12. Thursday October 4, 2010 at 9:12 am #

    I would never marry a girl without a “test drive” at least in terms of a few good make outs to see how she responds. (I take it for granted that I wouldn’t sleep with her.) The best places are where you have some privacy, but not enough to go all the way. A public park at dusk always works for me.

    Low libido women do exist and while the risk of a sexless marriage may be overstated, it is a real issue.

    Anyway, when with some of these church girls it can take months even kiss them, it is somewhat understandable that this would make church guys paranoid.

  13. Aunt Haley October 4, 2010 at 9:59 am #

    There probably are women that have abnormally low sex-drives, but I would venture to guess that most of them just don’t have an alpha hubby and that’s to blame more than anything else.

    I think this is largely the reason for low-sex marriages. Has anyone here heard of the Twi-Moms? (They’re mothers who are obsessed with Stephenie Meyer’s Twilight books. Yes, their self-chosen moniker is “Twi-Moms.”) You’ve gotta wonder how many Twi-Moms dole out occasional sex to their beta husbands while secretly fantasizing about Edward Cullen breaking their bed. (In the final book in the series, Edward is just so passionate that he literally destroys the bed when he and Bella finally consummate their marriage.)

  14. Aunt Haley October 4, 2010 at 10:04 am #

    nothingbutthetruth, I am not talking about only young women. I’m talking about women in their late 20s through 40s.

    This is the best argument for premarital sex. You don’t marry because you are desperate for sex, which is a really bad idea.

    The Bible says otherwise: “But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” 1 Cor. 7:9

  15. Aunt Haley October 4, 2010 at 10:13 am #

    Bob, I think churches should be more open about counseling young men who are on the path to marriage. I feel like there is an attitude in evangelicalism that amounts to “sex is such an amazing and wonderful mystery that everyone needs to figure out completely on their own because that’s how special it is.” Which is a nice, romantic ideal, but impractical in a lot of ways. Plus, no one wants to get sex advice from the grizzled old codgers at church whose wives of beyond a certain age are completely sexually unappealing – or from grown-up Youth Group Guys who are way too open and eager to share their knowledge.

  16. Aunt Haley October 4, 2010 at 10:27 am #

    Thursday, most women enjoy feeling overwhelmed by masculine passion, whether that’s in the form of a stolen kiss or much more. I think that if a girl is being frigid and rigid about it during the courtship phase, one of a few things is going on: (1) she’s very shy, (2) she’s not sure if she’s attracted to you, or (3) she’s shit-testing you in a power play. If you’re kino escalating to favorable results and experiencing electric verbal foreplay but still getting rebuffed for the kiss, I think there’s a good chance #3 is happening. In that case I think you should just be direct, playful, and go for it. If she gets upset and accuses you of disrespect, the relationship is probably not worth pursuing, because that kind of woman will always be using sex for control.

  17. Joseph Dantes October 4, 2010 at 11:04 am #

    I sympathize completely with the aversion to whoring oneself out. It’s as unpleasant as it sounds.

    While this isn’t a solution to a biologically low sex drive, it does address some of the concerns regarding a girl’s sex drive dropping after she gets her big wedding and complacency sets in.

    Consider
    1. Not having a wedding. Biblically, they were only for the rich.
    2. Significantly modifying your concept of marriage and its nomenclature.

    As I see it, the minimum honorable male requirement re: sex is to provide a lifelong relationship to a woman once you’ve had sex with her, so she never needs another man or lacks provision. This definition includes neither sexual monogamy nor titular promotion.

    In other words, you can simply leave her in girlfriend status, and do like the Vikings did, giving her the name wife only when she gives you children. In the age of contraceptives, this strikes me as a more balanced status tradeoff. Otherwise you are rewarding her with honor in exchange for very little investment.

    Obviously this involves making sex far less a union of families and far more a couples dynamic. But since this wealthy age is economically atomistic, I think the approach makes sense. Excess familial involvement is likely to be a strain rather than a necessary support.

  18. Wayfinder October 4, 2010 at 12:29 pm #

    That’s only a solution if you’re not looking for monogamy.

    Recognising that what we call marriage today isn’t precisely identified with what it truly is or was, that still doesn’t give me licence to make up my own definition wholecloth.

    I’d rather not ignore the social witness of the title, either. I figure that if I’m treating someone as a wife, it’s only fair that she gets to be called that. The catch being finding someone who is able to fulfil that position. And if she isn’t someone who you can trust to be called your wife, then why do you trust her with everything else?

  19. ASDF October 4, 2010 at 3:31 pm #

    Having given it some more thought, once you’re married, can’t you just tell them that “the Lord commands it!”, and get it whenever you want?

  20. Joseph Dantes October 4, 2010 at 3:57 pm #

    It’s compatible with monogamy or polygamy.

    Since marriage today is a poisonous contract designed to erode male power and enable the worst sort of female entitlement, you are absolutely required to make up your own definition.

    Fulfillment of the wifely position is a gradient, not a binary. In my own life, I try to remove temptation and stumbling blocks as much as possible. These also exist on a gradient. Having a trustworthy wife is wife; putting major temptation in her path is not.

  21. nothingbutthetruth October 4, 2010 at 6:06 pm #

    Well, obviously I don’t share your beliefs. I think St. Paul believed the Second Coming of Christ was scheduled during his life, so he was writting in this context.

    I don’t think this was a universal command but something targeted to Corinthians in this historical context (Paul says several times: “I, not the Lord”). In the same way, the instructions about slaves to Timothy and Titus were not meant to be universal commands about slavery in all ages.

    It is amazing how people, when they quote the Bible, they are really strict about the aspects that they like while not giving a damn about the aspects that they don’t like.

    However, whatever your beliefs and whether you are celibate or not, I don’t think marrying someone for sex is a good idea.

    Marriage is the most important decision in your life and you have to choose your spouse because you have similar values, you are compatible and have a common project. Not because you are horny and you are going to explode. In my experience, the marriages where people married to have sex are the most catastrophic ones.

    On the other hand, I have not seen anyone to explode because of lack of sex (if this was true, Islamic suicide bombers – who are mostly virgins – wouldn’t need explosives).

    When you are desperate for having sex, you are not a good judge. It is better to exercise some self-control instead of rushing to marriage to have sex. After all, celibacy is the biggest gift (according to St. Paul). Or is this the part of the Bible that you don’t like and you don’t give a damn about what the Good Apostle says?

  22. Annie October 4, 2010 at 6:25 pm #

    Is anyone else assuming that the person writing the “I want to have sex or I’ll explode” comment on the Christian website is being completely facetious? I mean, honestly, in the comments I’m seeing it is as if people really believe she would make massive, life-altering decisions based on this one dimension. Which, if she really wanted to, I’m sure SOMEONE would marry her…

    Anyway, as a twenty-something woman who has just started reading this blog, I just wanted to drop a few cents in.

    Oh, and one more thing, as a woman who is often worried about the frigid/too friendly thing… I have seen many female friends get labled as “that girl” when they are friendly to guys. Once again, unless the person is already interested, if you try to show that you are a friendly, open person who might be interested in dating, so many people who want to boost their social appeal by rejecting others will cut them down. Yikes. Pardon me if I don’t want to get involved in some awkward dating one-upmanship war.

  23. Hermes October 4, 2010 at 7:03 pm #

    Haley, what do you think about the notion, oft-repeated in Christian circles today, that Christian women are raised to think “sex is dirty” (so they won’t do it before marriage) and then once they get married, find that they can’t “turn it on like a light switch” and so they carry this idea that sex is dirty into the marriage? I’m skeptical, because I perceive the “sex is dirty” mantra as having passed from favor 1-2 generations ago; it seems like all we’ve heard from church leaders for the past twenty years is, as you say, “sex is a wonderful, beautiful, amazing thing that is to be saved for marriage.” But I still know a lot of people who claim this “sex is dirty” attitude is a problem and one of the chief causes of female frigidity in marriage.

    One of my friends from church sometimes talks about how some of his married Christian friends have confided in him about this problem. He says that one of them has a wife who “thinks sex is dirty” and therefore doesn’t like it. Another guy told him that his wife “just lies there.” Ever since I’ve been reading about game, my first reaction to such things is to think that the guys just aren’t running proper game on their wives. This is especially problematic since when men seek help from mainstream church venues, i.e. their pastor or some organization like FotF, they are usually told that they are not being obsequious and white-knighting enough; “do more housework, send her flowers, tell her she’s beautiful,” they are advised. On the other hand, I can’t discount the possibility that some of these women really are just sexually frigid. What do you think?

  24. Hermes October 4, 2010 at 7:12 pm #

    Ah, who’s labeling them “that girl?” Other women, right? If you think men care, you’re mistaken.

    (A very nice, friendly, and cool girl at the church group I go to, who is, unfortunately, a butterface, very obviously wanted to go grab a bite to eat with me after the gathering last Wednesday. I vacillated for a while in my mind, and in the end decided not to, but was still flattered and certainly thought no less of her. I suppose other women could label her “that girl” if they observed her talking to me. But in the end, if she’s the one who actually winds up married, she’ll have the last laugh.)

  25. jack October 4, 2010 at 8:18 pm #

    Why do you think that guys like me prefer the idea of a virgin?

    I absolutely believe that the carousel riders are more likely to cut the guy off after marriage because they probably often see sex as the payment they make to get male attention.

    A woman who has never put out to purchase male attention is less likely to view sex negatively.

    Also, they are less likely to have tasted (heh) the world of alphas, and therefore are less likely to view their proper match as “settling”.

  26. Barry October 4, 2010 at 8:35 pm #

    “For the Christian alpha male, there’s not much cause to worry – Christian alpha males almost always get snapped up right after college, or, if they delay marriage, whenever they feel like it’s finally time to leave and cleave…er, I mean, whenever the Holy Spirit speaks to them about the next season of life.”

    Alphas don’t get “snapped up.” They pursue and do their own snapping. Its interesting how this quote sheds light on your perspective. Perhaps you just see other females as competition (and rightfully so). Perhaps this is a Freudian slip indicating that subconsciously you think its the females are the ones responsible for making it happen.

  27. Joseph Dantes October 4, 2010 at 10:33 pm #

    In addition to the reasons you’ve listed, one of the major reasons a man in that scenario gets no vag or unexcited vag is he has no way of instilling dread.

    The power to walk away is a major vaj lubricant.

    By never explicitly giving my gf the “wife” status complete with vows, at least until she gives me children and so has more skin in the game, I can maintain that chaotic subconscious doubt that I might just up and leave.

    In every negotiation, whoever cares less wins. I always maintain the upper hand in the relationship because I always care less than her about the relationship. A vowed and unilaterally committed Christian husband has no leverage left; he cannot realistically threaten to leave without eviscerating his honor and breaking his word.

    I, on the other hand, can use the nuclear option and simply disappear without comment for days or weeks at a time if her femaleness somehow erupts into hysterical shit testing. The mere threat of this capacity, demonstrated subtly by micro-expressions and body language over the course of a relationship, is enough to prevent such an event from ever occurring.

  28. Aunt Haley October 4, 2010 at 11:03 pm #

    I didn’t say to marry the first available person regardless of character or compatibility. But it is not wise for someone whose body is screaming for sex to postpone finding a mate.

  29. Aunt Haley October 4, 2010 at 11:08 pm #

    ASDF, can you possibly conceive a scenario where that would work?

    HUSBAND: Come on, honey. My manly needs are needing.

    WIFE: I’m tired.

    HUSBAND: But the Lord commands it.

    WIFE: Oh, well, why didn’t you just say so in the first place? Hop on!

    HUSBAND: Yippee!

  30. Aunt Haley October 4, 2010 at 11:43 pm #

    Hermes, I agree that evangelical churches these days are all about telling the youth that sex is OMGAWESOME – except for the part where you can’t have it until you’re married and if you do, many Terrible Things could happen to you! Also, teenage boys and dirty old men want nothing more than to Have Sex With You so you must discourage them and thwart their desires because that is what good sisters in Christ do. Oh, and virginity is the most precious gift you can give your spouse. I think some girls who grow up in the church become so militant about protecting their virtue that it becomes very difficult psychologically to do a 180 and be the freak in the sheets that their husbands secretly want them to be. It’s a little like being on a diet and told not to look at chocolate cake, not to think about chocolate cake, and most certainly not to touch or eat chocolate cake, and being reminded that eating chocolate cake before the proper time could result in many bad things happening – and then all of a sudden being told to indulge in chocolate cake all the time and that it is good and healthy for you to do so. And that it PLEASES GOD! What a mindbender.

    That said, there are a few other things that could color the scenario that your friends have experienced. One – did the couple go almost-all-the-way with no orgasm a lot prior to marriage? That can lead to some messed up sexual interaction in marriage. There could also be lingering guilt over messing around that is affecting marital sex. Two – as you suspected, are the husbands just not being alpha enough? I think a good litmus test for that is to imagine how the wife might respond to a celebrity crush in bed. Would she just lie there like a dead fish for George Clooney or a sexy vampire or a sports star? If not, the husband probably needs to be more alpha. Three – some women are extremely anti-mess. Sex is messy. That could cause such women to find sex unappealing and for it to be hard to let themselves go.

    One other thought…could it be that your friends are awful in bed? Maybe your friends’ wives, prior to marriage, had visions in their heads of being romanced Casanova-style, complete with Meaningful Sex in soft focus with dozens of candles not setting the room on fire, and the reality turned out to be night after night of your friends fumbling around in the dark and breathing like Darth Vader after a marathon.

    I don’t know, I think more or less 99% of these issues boil down to “husband needs to act more alpha.” They should try running some bossy caveman Game in bed and see where it gets them.

  31. Lily October 5, 2010 at 5:11 am #

    Interesting post. And also covered in this week’s desperate housewives. They also managed to slip in women who write to prisoners.

  32. Aaron October 5, 2010 at 5:38 am #

    A little late to the game here, but I just wanted to share that marrying a woman with a low sex drive is not an overblown fear. It’s a very real possibility. I was the good Christian boy who tried to do everything right. Both my wife and I waited until we were married. 

    The low sex drive thing wasn’t a gradual decline over a few years. It was there from day one. I love my wife, but it’s always at the back of my mind that I wish I knew then what I know now. It can be very miserable, and I wouldn’t wish it in anyone.

    I’m sure that I won’t convince many Christians that the church’s teaching on abstinence is mistaken, but that’s my experience.  I’m not advocating promiscuity or anything like that, but waiting to find out your wife has no sex drive until it’s too late to change your mind is just foolish.

  33. Cane Caldo October 5, 2010 at 5:43 am #

    Has that ever worked for anything?

  34. Cane Caldo October 5, 2010 at 5:58 am #

    Any PUA will tell you that women are the consumers in the sexual market, and he positions his goods according to their tastes. It’s her world.

    Besides, “snapping up” is a metaphor. People on here are quick to argue in bad faith.

  35. Cane Caldo October 5, 2010 at 6:02 am #

    the reality turned out to be night after night of your friends fumbling around in the dark and breathing like Darth Vader after a marathon.

    Do I know you?

  36. Cane Caldo October 5, 2010 at 6:43 am #

    ” I was the good Christian boy who tried to do everything right.”

    Tried? Don’t give up! If you two are truly each other’s first you have a huge advantage. The first thing you need to do is recognize–truly consider–that you are the head of your household. You don’t have to do anything to take the role; it’s unavoidable. The head cannot command the belly to burn fat, but it can make the body run. Further: it can ignore pain to pursue what is good. You may need to do that for awhile.

    As a last resort, it should be strongly considered that sexual immorality is not limited to sex outside of marriage. Jesus was talking to Pharisees who allowed divorce for the smallest disturbance of a man’s pleasure. This is not small. This is good deal of the talk missing from our churches, and it’s an important point to me as one of the few men on this board who actually believes in “not forsaking the gathering together”.

    Up until now I’ve tried to leave details about myself out, but I will say that this is coming from a married, early-thirties man with four kids, who’s made all the mistakes possible.

  37. Thursday October 5, 2010 at 7:17 am #

    There is a small subset of women who are promiscuous, yet don’t actually like sex. Those may cut off sex in a marriage. But the vast, vast majority of carousel riders are carousel riders because they really like sex and have had few scruples about indulging in it. They want to keep the party going.

  38. ASDF October 5, 2010 at 7:48 am #

    Why not? If she’s such a super Christian, isn’t there some biblical injunction where she has to please her man? Plus, you made the husband sound like a herb. In real life, it would go down like this:

    ASDF: Come on, baby, let’s do this.

    Wife: I’m tired.

    ASDF: BS! THE LORD COMMANDS IT!

    Wife: Go to bed.

    ASDF: Don’t make me pull an Abraham, and find a
    Hagar on the side who likes it rough. Your friend Cindy was giving me the eyes in Church on Sunday. hmmm…

    Wife: You’re a monster!

    ASDF: Don’t blame me. God set the precedent.

    Wife: I’m so turned on right now.

    See? Easy!

  39. Dex October 5, 2010 at 7:50 am #

    Women, even Christian women who have been saving sex for marriage, don’t have as powerful a libido as men. I’m talking about normal women. Doesn’t mean they don’t have one, it’s just not as forceful or constant as men’s. This should be explained to young men considering marriage. It’s just the natural way of things, our bodies response to the world and society we live in.

    Women’s desire wanes over a relatively short period of time. This is true of perfectly normal women with good husbands. Doesn’t mean they don’t love their husband or that there’s something dysfunctional about their marriage, just means that they’re settled in for the long haul of life together. This should be explained to young women considering marriage. It’s just nature.

    My marriage would have been a lot happier in the early years had these expectations been set with us. We adapted and learned, but not everyone does. I think a lot of divorce, infidelity and dissatisfaction could be avoided for Christians if members of the church are willing to get real with them prior to marriage about what’s coming and what to do about it.

    in re: teaching that “sex is bad”, I never heard that growing up in evangelical churches. I heard that premarital sex is bad and that children are a negative consequence of it. Maybe it’s that attitude that carries on into marriage, fear of pregnancy even after the fear is unwarranted?

  40. Aunt Haley October 5, 2010 at 8:25 am #

    ASDF, your scenario just sounds like Game. Mine was just a literal interpretation of your original suggestion.

  41. Joseph Dantes October 5, 2010 at 9:27 am #

    wrong. women’s libido for alphas is higher than male stamina

  42. Joseph Dantes October 5, 2010 at 9:33 am #

    wrong. see RSD flawless natural. advanced PUAs are the pursued and the qualifying for real, not just by appearance.

  43. Dex October 5, 2010 at 12:57 pm #

    Would be nice if I was wrong. Would be nice if being “all alpha all the time” kept arousal levels high over time. But, simply put, there is no measure of libido in which men do not significantly eclispe women.

    This doesn’t mean that women are prudes or that the Christian women Haley describes aren’t absolutely aching for a physical relationship with a man, esp an alpha. It doesn’t mean that sex isn’t great at the beginning of a relationship and frequent too. It doesn’t mean that it dries up completely or that it has to slow to a trickle.

    There are plenty of things you can do to maximize your attractiveness (see also Athol Kay’s blog)and have sex more often. But the fact that the male is naturally hornier than the female is a reality that men must accept first and then work with.

    I said in my earlier post that this was just natural, but I wonder…. In Old Testament law regarding marriage, sex was something that the husband was obligated to provide to his wife. It was her right and he was not to deny it her. I wonder if something in our modern life is killing sex drive in women, besides the betafication of their suitors/husbands.

  44. Cane Caldo October 5, 2010 at 1:34 pm #

    Tell me: do goods pursue consumers, or do consumers pursue goods? A car salesman runs a credit report, but it remains in the buyer’s power to ultimately buy or reject the car. PUAs are salesman.

    It was a good example of the arguments to which I referred, though.

  45. Cane Caldo October 5, 2010 at 1:43 pm #

    I think that was an attempt to keep the jealousies of the first wives at a manageable level.

  46. Thursday October 5, 2010 at 3:34 pm #

    Tupac and Doug, among other commenters on Roissy’s and other blogs I have read, have said that women vary a fair bit when it comes to libido. They also report that there are women out there who after awhile in a relationship become lukewarm about sex even with an alpha. If you’re an alpha, she is unlikely to completely cut off sex, but she may not want it all the time either.

  47. Joseph Dantes October 5, 2010 at 3:50 pm #

    If betafication reduces arousal, then alpha-fication increases it, per my argument. Then it’s just a matter of volume.

    I don’t know how many times you’re capable of having sex per day, but I guarantee a woman can do more, as long as proper lubing prevents chafing.

    Female libido is fundamentally receptive, not aggressive, even if it reaches overtly aggressive expression. Don’t confuse category with degree.

    Obviously you’ve never been with a girlfriend who was hot but nevertheless down to bang more than you were. If you’re doing game right you should be able to achieve this state effortlessly as a permanent part of your LTR. And I’m not even a natural alpha or investing much attention in game or a master PUA.

  48. Joseph Dantes October 5, 2010 at 3:52 pm #

    Waning interest in sex is a symptom of failure to provide a steady depravity stretch. I.e., lack of dynamism. See hvren.wordpress.com

  49. Joseph Dantes October 5, 2010 at 4:04 pm #

    Cane, you’re such an idiot. No PUA would ever accept this model, just believing this kills all game by inverse prizing. You’ve really outdone yourself in demonstrating your social autism this time.

    Sex is not a good that changes hands on purchase. Nor is it a service rendered by party A to party B, prostitution excepted. It is a voluntary shared experience.

    The balance of choice to which you’re ineptly referring somewhat favors the average woman over the average gameless man, but massively favors the man with game over women. This is hardcoded: eggs>sperm, alpha sperm>eggs.

    As for your critique of game, becoming alpha is not necessarily a matter of conforming to arbitrary female tastes; becoming self-actualized in manhood will carry one quite far before one must begin to make tradeoffs. You’re simply unfamiliar with the diversity of PUA schools.

    I’m tolerant of someone who argues to learn, since I do the same thing. But you never learn. At some point, shame should intervene.

  50. Aunt Haley October 5, 2010 at 9:37 pm #

    The average woman fluctuates in desire according to her menstrual cycle. There’s an important distinction, though, between “not wanting sex” and “refusing to have sex.” A good wife will have sex with her husband even when she’s not particularly desiring it. A selfish wife will only have sex when she feels like it.

  51. Aunt Haley October 5, 2010 at 9:39 pm #

    Aaron, did you not notice any signs of low sex drive prior to marriage? Did you ever discuss sex? Not trying to rub salt in the wound…just genuinely curious.

  52. Cane Caldo October 5, 2010 at 10:16 pm #

    “Sex is not a good that changes hands on purchase. Nor is it a service rendered by party A to party B, prostitution excepted. It is a voluntary shared experience.”

    One wonders what sort of nightmarish exchanges you get into at the store.

    Clerk: “Hey! You can’t eat that: you haven’t paid yet!”

    JD: “Back out of my solo experience.”

    Clerk: “…”

    You keep coming back to the social autism hang-up.

    Me: Happily-married, church member, knows his ass from a hole in the ground. Might be taken for a beta.

    You: Can’t manage any of the three without having a paranoid episode of losing control. Has to tell everyone how alpha he is.

    Projection isn’t just for theaters.

  53. Dex October 5, 2010 at 11:18 pm #

    I’m not arguing that alpha behaviors aren’t attractive (at least part of the month). I’m saying there’s a limit to the volume she wants. That that limit changes over time unless a fellow has naturally attractive behavior and features or unless he gets some LTR game.

    Science is here:

    https://www.csom.umn.edu/Assets/71520.pdf

    Don’t confuse the frequency of sex she can have with the frequency with which she will have or with the amount she wants. All different things with different motivating factors.

    The soda bottle ready to burst is a good analogy. If it’s been a long time (or a lifetime) of abstinence, the initial sex will be impressive. Or if she’s hormonally/ chemically unbalanced. Or trying really hard to get pregnant. I’ve been with both the first and the third. Wife, not girlfriend, though. It was fun, I’ll say that. But I had no problems keeping up. (Maybe you should get your T levels checked?) But that frequency and intensity didn’t persist over time.

    At any rate, I’m not necessarily talking about anyone you know. Your girlfriend may be the exception. I’m talking about “on average”

  54. Asher October 5, 2010 at 11:37 pm #

    I’m having sex around twenty times a week with my girlfriend. Her libido seems to be capable of more, but I’m simply not physically capable of more than that.

    Not sure how that squares with the idea that all men are more libidinous than all women.

  55. Joseph Dantes October 6, 2010 at 12:17 am #

    My T levels are fine, thanks for your concern. As for keeping up, I know how to bang a girl into unconsciousness pretty quickly. My point was that if you keep the right pacing a girl can go indefinitely but a guy can’t. I am talking from my PUA reading and rumpspringa experience banging roughly a baker’s dozen of girls, FWIW.

    Female libido is not like male libido, thank God. This makes it fundamentally difficult to compare the two.

    Female libido is receptive to male advances. Secondarily, it is flirtatious, although not necessarily overtly aggressive or consciously horny. However, an experienced player knows when a girl can easily be kicked into sex mode. That’s the minimum level of what I define as her being horny. Her pulling your pants off is harder to miss, but that takes game.

    I agree that this drops off over time without game. See hvren.wordpress.com

    In that situation, the man will have more libido. Men’s libido is fairly constant, whereas women’s is more emotion and context dependent. Yet another reason why it’s difficult to directly compare the two libidos.

  56. Joseph Dantes October 6, 2010 at 12:20 am #

    Exactly Asher. The great thing is you can bust on her for being so horny and it will only make her more so.

  57. novaseeker October 12, 2010 at 10:21 am #

    It’s very hard to maintain that level of passion in a marriage over the course of decades. The bar has been set too high by things like Twilight.

  58. novaseeker October 12, 2010 at 11:46 am #

    It’s mostly the advent of children that screws this up, for a few reasons.

    One, women generally tend to move into Mommy mode for quite some time both before and after birth. It is admittedly a very busy time for both Mom and Dad, and it isn’t a very “sexy” time. Fatigue is one factor, but overall focus on the kid is another one.

    Once you move beyond that stage and hopefully get through it, however, the next challenges come. Mom tends to either be less sexy after having a kid (sorry, but it happens) OR, as is increasingly common today, works out and bounces back and is just as sexy as she was before she had the kid.

    For men, however, the problem is very different. It’s said that when a guy marries, he loses quite a bit of his alpha cred, and that’s certainly true, because cutting off options necessarily makes one less alpha. It’s sort of like the price of the car immediately dropping like a rock as soon as it drives off the lot — for men, his objective alphaness drops like a rock as soon as he marries, regardless of whether he tries to maintain an alpha frame or not (if he does the former, it’s better, but the diminution of alphaness happens anyway — it has to happen because you have less options, which diminishes alphaness ipso facto).

    A man’s alphaness drops even more when he switches into “modern daddy” mode or “modern daddy/hubby mode”. There isn’t anything sexy about this. It’s helpful to the wife, and more or less culturally mandated by today’s marriage culture (Christian or not), but it basically castrates a man’s alphaness. A man starts to become more domestic, often, in this period, which directly leads to his wife being much less attracted to him. This is the case even if he retains his physique.

    So I would say what happens in quite a few marriages is either:

    (1) Wife simply becomes less attractive after birth and never regains it, diminishing husband’s desire for her probably permanently;
    (2) Wife shapes up after birth quite well, but husband is totally betatized, having morphed into daddy/hubby mode, diminishing wife’s desire for him probably permanently;
    (3) Mismatched libidos (i.e., situations where wife and husband are still objectively attractive (i.e., pretty and alpha, respectively) but where one person has a significantly lower libido than the other (in this circumstance normally it would be the woman);
    (4) Sexual orientation issues that are either undisclosed or, in some cases, latent and not fully explored — on the part of either the husband or, much more commonly, the wife.

    How fixable is this? Not very. Sure, guys can mitigate some of this by maintaining an alpha frame and running married Game and so on, but the main issue is that the day-to-day work of hubby/daddy is, in and of itself, betatizing as it currently plays itself out in our culture (where Mom and Dad are both basically parenting the same way, typically). In other words, where sex roles have been trashed in the husband/wife and mother/father relationships in the family, it’s very hard to then turn them back on, suddenly, when you enter the bedroom. Life isn’t that cut and paste, really. And in many marriages (including Christian ones), the goal for the out-of-the-bedroom aspects is “egalitarianism”, which involves pretty much a mashing together of sex roles which almost always guarantees that the guy will be betatized in that aspect of the marriage. One way to avoid this, of course, is to avoid having children. That’s not terribly attractive, particularly for many women. Another way is to insist on sex roles in the marriage *in total* (and not just when it comes to sexytime) — but that’s increasingly pie in the sky and hard to find, both because most women won’t go for it, as well as because relatively few men are currently capable of playing the male role well, given how under attack masculinity is in the current culture.

    So, unfortunately, there’s no silver bullet here for guys who want to get married. We live in a culture that enforces the female fantasy of a beta hubby/daddy and alpha lover smushed into one man as the objective expectation of most women — something that most men are not set up to be. Until we get more realistic about things, I think we’re just going to see these same sexual problems crop up again and again and again in marriages.

  59. unpopularculture October 27, 2010 at 9:25 pm #

    Christian women libido free? No one who thinks that has ever been on a church youth retreat ……. or for that matter, any youth group trip involving a ride on a darkened bus.

    I think it’s safe to say that a good amount of “low sex drive” in women has to do with the fact that men aren’t men and ain’t got no game. (Beentheredonethat.)

    Another part is that stress tends to lower sex drive … duh. Life is stressful these days, and it’s bad stress. My sex drive goes away under extreme stress — or just extreme busy-ness– as well. That’s kinda natural. All the standard advice about dealing with stress (exercise, relaxation, good diet, relationships, getting out into nature, and not least, spiritual life and prayer) apply.

    Another part is specific health issues such as hormonal imbalances. (Just as with men, “erectile dysfunction” can mean low testosterone or, even worse, cardiovascular disease!) You can get medical help for that, or (my preference) see a wholistic expert who specializes in treating these issues naturally.

    Christian women have been trained not to give any signals of attraction, Christian women want to be “friends” for an unspecified amount of time first…yet Christian women expect men to “man up” and charge ahead, brandishing leadership skills in every facet of life, but not in too sexy a way, lest he be branded a sex-craved deviant or cause a sister (whom he should be treating with absolute purity) to stumble, but not so unsexy that the woman would rather wash her hair.

    Yeah, see? Dealing with Christian chicks is simple!

    There’s just no good way to tell someone, “I am so fantastically, unrestrainedly into you that I’m going to need us to work on the relational/emotional/intellectual connection here and I am going to need you to not. touch. me. until we talk about it — and I really have to warn you, I may need you to pull the breaks on me.”

    This one Christchick (that is an affectionate term) and I met at a retreat type thing. She wasn’t at all my type physically, but in terms of personality and spiritual maturity — whole different story. Well darned if we didn’t spend the better part of five days stuck like glue. We had a complete rapport spiritually, mentally, psychically (we would unconsciously “copycat” each other’s actions and words a lot). We took moonlit walks along the mist-covered lake and whatnot. Totally romantic. But, her body language was arctic, though the conversation is very deep and we obviously liked each other.

    So eventually we’re sitting alone, and I’m trying to figure out how to steal a good night kiss. Nothing intense, just a peck — because I like to take things slow too, and it’s a refreshing palate-cleanser from some of the drunk-making-out-with-random-women-in-bars I had slipped into in in recent weeks.

    But in the course of conversation she starts talking about courtship and all that. Turns out she’s one of these neo-Puritan-wannabe, Josh Harris courtship types. Mind you, at this point she is 27 and I’m 25; we are not teenagers. But, she does not believe in touch, she says; so no kiss is possible (or so I assumed at the time). She doesn’t even hug. I have to show her somehow that I like her, so I end up only lightly caressing her hand with one finger as I sat next to her. Frustrating? Hell yes it was. It wasn’t even a horny thing. I just liked her.

    That, and maybe a quick hug goodbye when she dropped me off the last day to catch my bus home, was our only physical contact.

    Well damn! I got on that bus seriously bummed. But I was missing her, and sad, as soon as we separated. This feeling was totally foreign to me. Not even after ending serious physical relationships had I ever felt like this.

    We continued our friendship through the mails. (She didn’t have regular Internet.) And in one of her letters she volunteered a “secret.”

    She said that the reason why she was so physically distant, was that physical touch was her weakness. Said she was so susceptible, that she had to put up a very very wide boundary so as not to “fall.” And, I take it, in Josh Harris courtshipland, even to have a peck on the cheek, or maybe something a little nicer, is to “fall” … She recommended I go get his book, which I did. I found it contained sensible advice for 16-year-olds, but not for grownups.

    Well anyway, as it turned out, she eventually threw all the courtship/takin’-it-at-snail’s-pace stuff out the window . I took a trip with her again a year later–the same retreat. However, I was a total wuss in that I took her comment about not touching at face value, rather than reading between the lines and giving her what she said she wanted. Because when she volunteered her “weakness,” she was really giving me the key to her because she trusted me not to abuse it. But I was too timid to even use the key. And I fooled myself into thinking that in doing so, I was “pleasing” her with my superior virtue.

    Well it turns out, that was a mistake, because it was just a test, and I failed it. I visited her at her home two states away in November; but by January, she was engaged — to someone else, a hometown guy who, I will surmise, did not respect any of her exaggerated boundaries but simply went in for the kill. And, good for him: he was the better man for that.

    So, that situation taught me a) if you really want a woman, push the boundaries, b) don’t observe stupid “courtship” rules that some dude just pulled out of his ass and put in a book. Go with where the Spirit — and yes, your hormones that God gave you — are leading. Take things at a realistic pace.

    I mean, we could just do things Old Testament style. If you see a broad you like, just grab her. That seems much more direct …

  60. random beta February 7, 2011 at 2:39 pm #

    The REAL problem with dating Christian Women, has absolutely nothing to do with sexual interest level, the problem is as you’ve described it below,

    “It’s really the Christian beta males who must trek through Mordor to get to Mount Doom, only to possibly discover Gollum waiting to chomp off their finger.

    The conundrum facing Christian beta males seems obvious: Christian women don’t want beta males any more than non-Christian women do, Christian women have been trained not to give any signals of attraction, Christian women want to be “friends” for an unspecified amount of time first…yet Christian women expect men to “man up” and charge ahead, brandishing leadership skills in every facet of life, but not in too sexy a way, lest he be branded a sex-craved deviant or cause a sister (whom he should be treating with absolute purity) to stumble, but not so unsexy that the woman would rather wash her hair. And a brother is somehow supposed to divine his future wife’s sex drive out of this?”

    This, is such a good description of the real nature of the problem. In my 33 years of life, the only women that had the capacity to make me truly miserable were christian woman.

    Christian women, like all women, display consistent and repeating patterns of behavior. With Christian women it is more accute however, as Christian women, are playing hard ball, and playing for keeps.

    rejection, ljbf, emasculation, over-reaction, teasing, provocation, judging, shaming, acting bored, acting like a, “princess,” non communication, shyness, coyness, deliberate and accidental manipulation.

    What makes it even worse with the christian woman was that i wouldn’t even consider pursuing a woman until i was already sure she was marriage material.

    This is in stark contrast to the “worldly” and “un-christian women,” were becoming ever more attracted to me.

    In all, the vain, hopeless pursuit of christian women was a chasing after the wind.

    The section quoted below is supposed to show how women have the same desires and passions so don’t lose heart. And your right, as long as your not beta.

    “I am so fantastically, unrestrainedly into you that I’m going to need us to work on the relational/emotional/intellectual connection here and I am going to need you to not. touch. me. until we talk about it — and I really have to warn you, I may need you to pull the breaks on me.”

    Commenter Andrea-Elena responded:

    Or how about…

    I haven’t gotten to be physical much with guys in my life and I’m longing so much to touch and do all those things that even if I’m not over-the-moon into you, I might still pounce on you just ’cause I like you enough and I find you attractive enough and women get horny too!!!

    I feel as if I ought to have a business-size card with that on it to give to a guy when we first start dating.

    I was inexperienced until the age of 23. So I didn’t really know my own “strength” (heh, heh). I didn’t know I could be or would ever be the aggressor in making out. And there were times I was. Sure, that’ll be awesome when I’m someone’s wife. But it’s awfully dangerous during dating, especially at the beginning stages when it’s so easy for the physical bonding to escalate and go at a much more rapid pace than the “who we are as people” aspect of getting to know each other. And some guys don’t defend their own boundaries very well at times. Just as some of us gals don’t either at times.”

    The reality is that christian women, “NEVER!!!!!!!!” feel this way about regular guys.

    I try not to be bitter. My one take away, and the only bright patch in all of it is that i do value and appreciate my female friends. I am 33 now, and I enjoy my life, family, friends, art, work, hobbies, etc. I am very comfortable with myself now, and that took a long time to reach.

    It’s ironic now because more and more of the young attractive christian women are showing more and more interest in me, to which, thank god, i am at last immune.

  61. lifeinlonglegs February 7, 2011 at 5:22 pm #

    I wholeheartedly agree, Haley. Christian women want to have sex as much as men do, or even more in many cases.

    A few things come to mind, some from my self-describedly ‘sordid’ past [I make free to condemn myself for what most would consider innocent LTR material but I now measure myself by Biblical standards not secular ones so, that’s that] and some from Christian chastity.

    1) [sordid past] Women turn of sex, but men tend to turn off romance, connection, and affection: this is essential ’emotional foreplay’.

    2) [sordid past] Men might not put any actual effort into physical foreplay or into studying human anatomy and knowing what they are doing in the bedroom. Men are very paranoid about other men being ‘better’ than they are in bed but do nothing about it academically. This is why I will marry a nerd. I’ve done my reading: he should, too. [Chrsitian chastity] This study is a worthwhile investment for men and women in the context of marriage. Who wants to do the same thing every night [even if it is great, eventually you might feel like a scratching post instead of a sexual partner].That’s not sex, it’s masturbation using a person instead of your hand. Men and women need to learn to make a connection in bed, not just bodily contact. That connection can only be found in the context of committment, of marriage.

    3] [sordid imagination] Get her out of the house – a change of scene is sometimes necessary to feel romantic. You’ve got her bent over the kitchen counter and she can still smell the pine sol and see the spot she missed while cleaning it. Get the picture? Women observe a lot of details. It is hard to feel sexy when your kids are in the next room or when you can hear the cat vomiting in the background. Or when you’ve been so busy rugrat wrangling you have not had time to shave.

    4] [Christian Chastity and Sordid past]People who have the most sex before marriage have the least sex afterward. Because she doesn’t value you or herself enough to wait and give her whole self to you sexually… if she’s waiting, she’s anticipating it will be worth the wait and is certain she is very interested in you sexually. WE only get one shot at this, too. If she’s not sure, she’ll want to test the waters before committing. Terrible. Sadness.

    5] [Sordid past, scientific mind, and perpetual nerdiness] Women athletes or those who exercise regularly have more testosterone [higher sex drive], are more body-confident and body-aware, have better stamina, and in general make better wives because they are in better shape, more productive, more fertile…need I go on?. Oddly enough, the higher testosterone can also cause slightly thin hair up top. So, your wife might get a bit bald but she’ll be interested when you are.

    Personally, I am [despite sordid past] and have been for some time waiting for marriage and fear marrying someone who has a low sex drive or who is secretly gay. [See to Kiss or not to Kiss soon to come on my blog]. But I’d rather risk that than marry a man who would compromise himself, me, and our relationship with God for cheap meaningless sex outside of committment.

  62. lifeinlonglegs February 7, 2011 at 5:27 pm #

    I forgot to add that the reason Christians are afraid to talk about sex is liberal theology, disseacting the New Testament from the Old. Sexuality isn’t evil. What we do with it apart from obedience to God is.

  63. Jim July 30, 2011 at 5:23 pm #

    Haley– I think your article misstates the problem, or part of the problem. The problem is that the wife knows that if her husband is a committed Christian he will not leave her, no matter how she treats him.

    So, whether or not there is passion at the beginning, the problem thereafter is that the wife has total power over her husband in the area of sex because (1) he has to remain faithful, and (2) cannot leaver her for anyone else. So she can either withhold sex to control her husband, or if she is really selfish, she can just stop sex entirely knowing that he cannot do anything about it.

    In contrast, in a non-Christian marriage, a woman who does that always runs the risk that (1) the husband will have an affair (or go to prostitutes), or (2) will eventually leave her.

    Now of course the Bible directly speaks to this, when Paul says that husbands and wives are not to deny themselves to each other. But if the wife decides to ignore the Biblical command (and both society and most churches unfortunately give her support in that, because it is always the husband who is pictured as being selfish if the husband wants sex and the wife does not), a Christian husband has no recourse, but must remain the rest of his life in a sexless or manipulative marriage.

    In response to my comments, one could say the Christian woman in a marriage runs the same risk that her husband could do that to her. That’s true, but I highly suspect the problem is usually the other way around, at least as to sex. (Where I see a Christian woman being caught in a no-win position is where the husband becomes abusive or domineering, which of course is also directly against Scripture but happens all the time.)

    Why do I know about this? I am a Christian husband caught in a sexless marriage. As soon as we had our second child, my wife thereafter refused to even let me touch her. It is utterly the pits. I have lived with that for 19 years, and yet have been completely faithful to her and I have remained (1) because I felt I had a duty to act responsibly and raise my children in an intact family, and (2) I don’t (or didn’t) believe in divorce.

    Now that our children are finally raised and out of the house, and after a year of still being rejected even though I have asked whether we can go through marriage counseling and that I am willing to do anything to get our relationship back to how it was when we first married, I frankly am ready to leave.

    I have gone through counseling with my pastor. His response: (1) As a Christian I cannot leave; (2) somehow the problem must be related to how I have treated my wife.

    As you can probably guess, I found your thread because I have been doing Google searches trying to find guidance on what I should do.

  64. Old Guy August 2, 2011 at 12:43 pm #

    Jim:

    Hey.

    I don’t know how you understand the prohibition against divorce, but you may want to think through whether you can’t divorce your wife or whether it’s that you can’t take another one. My guess (and it’s not just a guess) is that it’s not just sex that’s missing from your marriage, and that your wife has been a malignant shit to you in ways big and small, every day, for what seems forever. Getting away from her may save what’s left of your life, even if it doesn’t get you laid.

    When your clergyman suggests that “the problem must be related to how I have treated [your] wife”, he’s saying something stupid and cruel, but which is nonetheless literally true. Despite the fact that your wife’s the one who’s not holding up her side of the deal and you’re doing as much of your best as you can still manage, you’ve lost the lead in your marriage, and the thing that makes a perfectly normal woman insane is the visceral realization that she’s mixed her genes with those of the wrong guy. While you might think that sex goes (or would go) pretty well for both of you if she’d give it a try, or that it would being less of a bitch would get easier for her if she’d just be a little less of a bitch, and while both of these are unqualifiedly true, she can’t do it. It’s in your hands. You can’t expect her to be something she’s not.

    Somewhere, somehow [that’s a joke], you got the idea that she is and can approach you as an equal. This just isn’t so in any practical sense. What you need to do is reassert your vision and control of your life so that she can want to be part of it. Hit the gym. Do what you need to to become more attractive to women in your social milieu than she is to the men. When she starts to come around, don’t focus overmuch on making sex good for her, fuck her stupid. She can’t be happy unless your world isn’t about something other than her. If it is, she’ll hate you for it.

    I haven’t read it, but I’d recommend that you as a guy in a crisis get the book by the guy at Married Man’s Sex Life, in the column on the right. You could probably figure it this stuff on your own surfing the web, but you can do that when you’ve the leisure.

    Hey.

  65. Old Guy August 2, 2011 at 12:46 pm #

    That should read: “She can’t be happy unless your world is about something other than her.”

  66. Jim August 2, 2011 at 1:20 pm #

    Yes, well, I can understand your viewpoint, but it doesn’t work too well when you believe you are governed by Scripture, e.g., Ephesians 5:25. And, what’s more, I am a serving elder of my church, so I also have ordination vows about being faithful and chaste (i.e., no cheating) as well as marriage vows. Maybe you say I have “lost my lead,” but the fact is we have raised two children and I have responsibly provided for and been a good Dad for them, and I have never done anything to hurt my wife or been unfaithful to her. I actually consider that an accomplishment.

    What’s hard is I am still in pretty good physical shape (I run 5-6 miles, 4-6 times a week, for example) and a fairly good looking guy even though I’m now in my fifties (or if not good looking–I really don’t know–for some reason women find me attractive). So I do get hit on by women all the time (or they do what I call “pinging” you with the eyes or the smile), and I actually find it increasing. Part of it is my wife doesn’t have much to do with me (for example, she will not go to church with me), so I think some women may think I’m unattached, or they have figured out the situation and think maybe there’s an opportunity there of some sort.

    I make sure to always wear my ring, but more and more I find that makes no difference to a bunch of women who are on the prowl. Really, the only thing you can do is try to avoid getting in temptation situations as much as possible, but I have to say it is really hard, and I frankly worry more and more that one of these days my resistance is going to wear out.

    You would think my wife would realize she’s at risk, I’ve as much as told her that, although in the context of saying I don’t want any temptations in our marriage, but for whatever reason she must think I won’t go over the edge.

  67. Old Guy August 3, 2011 at 10:15 pm #

    Jim, Jim, Jim:

    Seriously, I’m trying to help. I get that you’re all in.
    You may think you’ve not lost your lead in your marriage because you’ve been faithful to your wife, raised her kids, and been their Dad, but if you’re getting hit on by women and your wife doesn’t know about it because she doesn’t have much to do with you and won’t go to church with you, we’ve got a case of vincible ignorance here.

    I’m trying to avoid the local jargon, but here it is: you’ve allowed yourself to become a beta. Get this: being faithful to your wife, even out of conviction, and a good father to your children has a different effect on a woman if she sees you have options.

    This isn’t a matter of her calculating the risk of you leaving her, seeing the depth of you’re commitment, and concluding that she’s free to treat you however she pleases. It is instead a matter of her natural reaction to seeing that you are attractive to other women: somewhere near the evolutionary core of her mammalian brain her hormones will respond to the fact that your sons might disperse her genes among a multitude and — this is again the local jargon — her ‘gina will tingle.

    If out of conviction you’re immune to the obvious attentions of women on the prowl, you’re even more the man. It’s not that she’ll be threatened by their attentions and alter her behaviour accordingly to prevent a loss, it’s that the prowlers will “qualify” you and she’ll reorient towards getting herself some of that, i.e., you.

    Telling her, or, worse, “as much as” telling her that options are presenting themselves just sounds needy.

    You’re fighting the habits of a lifetime. Who knew?

    Buy the book.

  68. Old Guy August 3, 2011 at 10:20 pm #

    And, as seems to happen, that should read “your commitment”.

  69. Jennifer August 19, 2011 at 8:27 pm #

    “As has been said here before, did anyone ever believe that Christian dating guru, pastor-to-be, megaflirt Joshua Harris was going to have genuine trouble finding a wife?”

    But Mr. Flirt sure loves zapping the fun out of it for every other Christian, doesn’t he? Greedy man. Incidintally, knowing his attitude, he’d be as attractive to me as a pile of bricks.

    I was about to say that we shouldn’t discount all “beta” qualities, then remembered that you meant a total beta. No, women don’t want that..

  70. Badger October 14, 2011 at 7:17 pm #

    “I have gone through counseling with my pastor. His response: (1) As a Christian I cannot leave; (2) somehow the problem must be related to how I have treated my wife.”

    F that guy. What a jackass.

  71. Alex Cockell October 5, 2013 at 2:53 pm #

    So basically Josh Harris was the mother of all cockblockers… Nice(!)

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. Offline, but still off the wagon - October 5, 2010

    […] Aunt Haley puts to rest the claim that Christian women are libido-free prudes. […]

  2. Haley’s Halo « For the scattered flock - October 6, 2010

    […] October 7, 2010 by singlextianman Haley is a single Christian sister who seems to have been delivered from the fear of man; as she is comfortable speaking what are unpleasant truths. I’ve enjoyed lurking at her site; and I link here to an essay to get you started. […]

  3. Word Around the Campfire – the Still Swamped edition « Hidden Leaves - October 9, 2010

    […] and the stigma of being the back-up plan.,Beauty is not insurance against infidelity.,Like paper near a flame., and Feeling free […]

  4. The Church Man | The Reinvention of Man - August 9, 2014

    […] men they might end up with a good woman with a healthy (previously restrained) sex drive that can now be released in all of its naughty fury.  Woe to the man who ends up marrying the 30 year old virgin spinster […]

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s