Why girls bolt after church.

3 Nov

In the comments of my last thread, Hermes asked:

Haley, if you’re taking topic requests, I’d be interested in your thoughts on women bolting for the door the second the church service or singles group gathering is over (and then complaining that they don’t get asked out.)

Usually it’s either:

1) They don’t want to stay and talk.

2) They’re shy.

3) They’re alone.

If a woman is alone (i.e., didn’t come with a friend or doesn’t really know anyone there), she’ll be less likely to stand around and be available for small talk.  It’s very awkward to stand by yourself and wait for someone else to take notice of you.  (Plus, I think it’s kind of humiliating.)  Most people also are not comfortable with approaching groups of established friends and injecting themselves into the conversation.  Established groups of friends are some of the most impenetrable, unfriendly groups around.

At the same time, you can’t just keep to yourself and blame everyone else for not making you popular.  I don’t have much sympathy for people who grouse about their unpopularity yet expect everyone else to do all the heavy lifting.

I think the best time to make contact with a person is before the service or meeting starts.  Establish rapport beforehand, then snag the person before they jet afterwards.  Especially when a person is by herself, it’s usually on you, the established attendee, to make the first move.  A personal invitation is a very powerful (and often effective) method of persuasion.


58 Responses to “Why girls bolt after church.”

  1. Joseph Dantes November 3, 2010 at 1:26 pm #

    Bravo. I love it. Church game: connect early.

    Man, church is such a banal, SWPL drag. Odoriferous, vapid homilies. Lame teenie-pop worship songs.

    Or staid decay, full of Carnegie careerist glad handers.

    So the new time-efficient strategy for meeting Christians as a nomad is: network beforehand, skip the main course.

  2. Augustine DeCarthage November 3, 2010 at 4:23 pm #

    Interesting. I can’t tell you the number of times I saw a cute girl at Church, spotted her afterward, was building up my courage to approach (remember, this is when I was younger and didn’t deal well with approach anxiety), and then she walks off briskly. Bummer.

  3. Aunt Haley November 3, 2010 at 7:29 pm #

    Fortes fortuna iuvat!

    Really, it’s a miracle that anyone not in the popular crowd at church ever meets and gets married.

  4. tannen November 3, 2010 at 11:28 pm #

    ADG: of course when you did manage to say hello, you ran afoul of those on high within the post high school non married group. Guilting/shaming you (“we don’t think it’s God’s will for you at the moment (or ever)”) into dropping the matter anyways. Yep seen it before.

    Like Joe D says, just a venue for class consciousness and social climbing. I would imagine that this is a typical megachurch.

    So if ya see her, full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes! You miss all the shots you don’t take. God loves you no matter what, so he can deal with you awkwardly approaching a girl you like.

  5. Joseph Dantes November 4, 2010 at 1:09 am #

    Some RSD or Practical Pickup (http://www.practicalpickup.com/tales-of-three-lays-part-two) or even Roosh and it won’t be awkward.

  6. Joseph Dantes November 4, 2010 at 1:11 am #

    “Really, it’s a miracle that anyone not in the popular crowd at church ever meets and gets married.”

    Don’t underestimate proximity + desperation.

    It’s the miracle of the small town effect.

  7. y81 November 4, 2010 at 8:01 am #

    Church services (and coffee hour or whatever afterward) seems like a very poor place to meet people. And, if you’re a girl who came alone, obviously you don’t want to stand around all by yourself.

    It’s better to join groups that (i) have a set of regular participants, (ii) are small enough that you can get to know all the regular participants, and (iii) aren’t set up for the express purpose of meeting people, because that implies neediness and desperation (this criterion rules out singles groups). Churchly examples would be a study group or a community service group. Then, you meet a bunch of people, so you can hang around with them before and after the service, which shows how popular you are (DHV). Plus, you have expanded your network of social contacts, which is really the key to finding Mr. Right.

  8. ASDF November 5, 2010 at 7:55 am #

    So Haley, I’ve finally joined eharmony (they gave me a discount on a 3 month membership).

    Question: In the initial questions section, is it weird to ask the “What are your thoughts on premarital sex?” question? I mean, I know it’s weird, but they do offer it as a question choice, so it must be popular on eharmony. And some Baptist chick asked me it, so some people use it at least. Your thoughts?

  9. Aunt Haley November 5, 2010 at 8:47 am #

    Ah, the premarital sex question! eHarmony still has a pretty churchly base of users, so that would be a big issue for your average 25-year-old homeschool virgin (male or female) who is looking not to marry the town bike. Just answer it honestly. It will help weed out people who disagree with you. My one friend who is on eHarmony asks it a lot.

  10. ASDF November 5, 2010 at 8:59 am #

    No, I meant is it weird to ask it? Ideally, I’d like to meet a virgin, but it just sounds so bizarre to say, “Hi, I’m so-and-so. Are you a virgin?”.

    I answered the question “I am ok with it as long as marriage is imminent”.

  11. Aunt Haley November 5, 2010 at 9:12 am #

    ASDF, the question isn’t asking whether you are a virgin. It’s asking what your opinion is about premarital sex. I think your answer will turn off a lot of women who believe strongly that you should remain a virgin until the ring is on your finger, though.

  12. ASDF November 5, 2010 at 9:24 am #

    If they answered that they are against premarital sex, wouldn’t that make them virgins?

    I thought virginity was less important to women than men. I am going the “reformable rake” route, so hopefully my other qualities make up for my chequered past.

  13. Aunt Haley November 5, 2010 at 9:55 am #

    If they answered that they are against premarital sex, wouldn’t that make them virgins?

    For all you know, they could be Bristol Palin, advocating for abstinence while not being virgins themselves.

    In general, the younger the (virtuous) woman, the more insistent she will be upon virginity. Older women have swallowed the reality pill and understand it’s unlikely that any reasonably desirable men in their peer group will be virgins.

    Also, if you’re going the “reformed rake” route, saying you’re okay with having sex before marriage is not the best way to advertise that you’ve reformed.

  14. jack November 6, 2010 at 3:56 pm #

    Let’s examine that question with some examples:

    Case 1:
    Person is virgin, advocating abstinence.

    So far, so good, This one is easy, no hypocrisy.

    Case 2:
    Person who is not a virgin but is NOW abstaining advocating against premarital sex.

    No problem here either. They are entirely consistent. “I used to be that way, and I can tell you it is wrong. Learn from my mistake.”

    Case 3:
    Person advocates no premarital sex, but occasionally falls into temptation.

    More of a gray area, but still entirely probable that no hypocrisy exists. “Learn from my mistakes, and from the fact that once made, mistakes are easier to repeat. Mankind is fallen.”

    Case 4:
    Person advocates against premarital sex, but rationalizes that their own past or current participation in premarital sex is “different”.

    Hypocrite. “You have to understand, my situation is ‘different’.”

    One need not be innocent of a behavior to acknowledge that it is wrong. In fact, it usually takes some people screwing up in order to find out that something is bad.

  15. Hermes November 6, 2010 at 10:01 pm #

    At the same time, you can’t just keep to yourself and blame everyone else for not making you popular. I don’t have much sympathy for people who grouse about their unpopularity yet expect everyone else to do all the heavy lifting.

    Haley, I know I’ve left some complaining comments on your blog, but I hope this wasn’t directed at me. I was not whining when I wrote that comment. I was just genuinely curious.

    When people are new (and especially when they’re new and alone) I can understand. Recently I and some mixed-sex friends were discussing this. One of the girls and one of the guys both mentioned that it was tough when they were new for that very reason: they felt awkward just standing there hoping to find someone to talk to. You pretty much have to hope that some of the established comers will decide to be “welcoming” and go around introducing themselves to new people.

    I’ve observed this behavior, though, in people who are not new, but whom I also don’t know well enough to ask, “hey, how come you usually bolt for the door the second it’s over?” I don’t necessarily think some of these people are shy. I guess I just don’t understand why people wouldn’t want to stay and talk a little. Our young adults group is one of the social highlights of my week. Maybe that has something to do with living alone.

    You’re right that the atmosphere before the meeting starts is different from after, though. I had forgotten about that possibility since I usually can’t get there early.

    The mixed-sex group of friends I mentioned above was talking about welcoming new people, and one of the girls mentioned that she hoped that she as a girl would go around and welcome any new girls, and that we guys would welcome any new guys. She seemed to think new girls might find it “creepy” if a guy tried to welcome her, even if he really was just being curteous and not trying to hit on her? What do you think about that? I normally respect this girl’s opinion but it sounded to me like a case of Christian girls being too sensitive.

  16. Aunt Haley November 6, 2010 at 10:34 pm #

    I wasn’t directing that comment at you specifically.

    some mixed-sex friends

    Exactly what kind of people are you hanging out with?! (Ha.)

    She seemed to think new girls might find it “creepy” if a guy tried to welcome her, even if he really was just being curteous and not trying to hit on her? What do you think about that? I normally respect this girl’s opinion but it sounded to me like a case of Christian girls being too sensitive.

    It depends on how the man approaches. If he’s cordial and open and doesn’t try to flirt, a female visitor will understand that he’s just doing his greeting duty. As I’ve said before, women can usually tell if a man is trying to hit on her. If a man is friendly but reserved and the woman still suspects he’s hitting on her, she’s probably too sensitive. There are always going to be women who think that every man who so much as glances at them is harboring romantic interest.

  17. jack November 8, 2010 at 7:41 am #

    “There are always going to be women who think that every man who so much as glances at them is harboring romantic interest.”

    Especially the 5s and 6s.

    Christian girls, to a much greater degree than secular girls, practice a haughty doctrine of preemption.

    They are only interested in Jesus in Brad Pitt’s body, so the are very generous in their stay-the-h311-back body language.

    Very easy to read.

  18. Cpt. Capitalism November 8, 2010 at 3:09 pm #

    HI Aunt Haley,

    How much would you chalk the reason up to “The Lord Will Provide-ism?” ie- They expect the guy to be delivered to the front door and no need to stick around to give a guy a chance?

  19. y81 November 8, 2010 at 6:09 pm #

    I’m surprised by Hermes’s and Haley’s discussion. Doesn’t your church have small groups, besides the weekly service? At our weekly fellowship group, we go around every week if there’s a new person and everyone introduces themselves and usually the assistant pastor’s wife makes up a question for everyone to answer (like “what is your earliest childhood memory?”). So after a few weeks you know 10 or 20 people well enough that you don’t feel shy at coffee hours or whatever. In contrast, I have never met anyone new at coffee hour.

    Of course, our weekly fellowship group is mostly married people, so it isn’t serving the purpose of the blog, but I presume that most of the other groups are mostly single people, since our church is.

  20. Hermes November 8, 2010 at 8:10 pm #

    I’m surprised by Hermes’s and Haley’s discussion. Doesn’t your church have small groups, besides the weekly service?
    I attend a large church, which has a group for singles and marrieds ages 22-35, on Wednesday evening, with probably 50-75 people in attendance most times. We have some singing and then some teaching by the pastor, then some “hang-out” time. It’s that group that I’m particularly perplexed that some girls bolt from, because it’s very much a laid-back young singles coffee-shop type environment, the lesson is usually finished by 9 PM, and there’s sort of an unspoken assumption that many people hope to meet a significant other there.

    How much would you chalk the reason up to “The Lord Will Provide-ism?” ie- They expect the guy to be delivered to the front door and no need to stick around to give a guy a chance?
    That’s actually what I was thinking the reason was, but I wanted to see what Haley would say without suggesting it.

  21. Aunt Haley November 8, 2010 at 9:06 pm #

    Cpt. Capitalism–
    How much would you chalk the reason up to “The Lord Will Provide-ism?”

    I’m sure there’s an element of this to some girls’ thinking, but I’d say that generally girls who bolt are probably either not interested in socializing or they’re shy. I don’t think most girls consciously think, “Well, I don’t ever have to talk to a single man on my own, because the Lord will take care of it for me.” Besides, it’s really only an issue if the girl is complaining that she never meets anyone or goes on dates yet never makes any effort to socialize. Maybe these girls don’t mind not being part of the crowd or are not currently focused on trying to get married.

    They are only interested in Jesus in Brad Pitt’s body, so the are very generous in their stay-the-h311-back body language.

    This is NOT TRUE. Stop making up excuses so you can continue to wallow in your bitterness like some sort of martyr. Has it ever occurred to you that your ugly bitterness is a reason that you cannot attract women?

  22. jack November 9, 2010 at 5:52 pm #


    Shaming language? Ha! I figured you would have had enough experience bouncing around in the manosphere to realize that such an argument would be immediately dismissed by someone like me.

    Anyway, perhaps you confuse cause with effect?

    Perhaps my bitterness is a result of a bunch of shallow women looking for Jesus in Brad Pitt’s body? Always a possibility, is it not? Anyway, your statement is more correctly called an accusation, since it was never really intended to be a question, was it?

    Regardless, you’re wrong about me. I was always a perfect gentleman, which was probably my fatal flaw, even as I befriended many a Christian girl who needed to cry on my shoulder after being dumped by some cad.

    That was waaay back, or course, when I only wanted a nice sweet girl, and I didn’t really care if she was not a virgin.

    After a long time, I realized that once a gal had gone a few rounds with interesting/exciting a-holes, there seemed to be no going back. Sure, they look you up when they turn 40 and are out of options, but that is not really the same thing, is it?

    And my statement is very true about Christian girls. They have always treated me worse than unsaved girls. I can only assume that “God’s Precious Daughters” can afford to show a little contempt for us worthless beta males, they being so wonderful and all.

    I guess I would almost rather marry a former prostitute who got saved than a Christian girl who played a calculated game of “anything-but” with the alpha males in her singles group.

  23. Aunt Haley November 9, 2010 at 6:53 pm #

    You continue to prove my point.

  24. jack November 10, 2010 at 3:35 pm #

    You get mad at me every time I mention that I would like to find a virgin. I am perfectly willing to be alone, of course, since I know it is an uphill climb to find one.

    No need to hate me over it.

  25. Rebekah November 13, 2010 at 10:39 pm #

    I show up semi-early for church, sit in an empty pew. If a man wants to talk to me, he can sit next to me. By the time church is over? He’s too late, I’m jetting unless he can hold the door for me.

    So gents:

    1) Sit next to her. (Unless she has rabies…)
    2) Play doorman.
    3) Fellowship time is designed so you can interact. Imagine that.

    Note: sitting next to a woman only works in larger churches where the action wouldn’t be too noticeable. If she gets up during worship and then moves her station towards or away from you slightly… take the hint.

  26. Hermes November 14, 2010 at 4:19 pm #


    Apparently you forgot:

    4) Arrive at church at least 5-10 minutes early, i.e., with enough time to open you, build attraction, and reach the comfort stage, because if he hasn’t by the time the service starts, by gum, your’re out like a light bulb as soon as it’s over.

    I guess I understand where you’re coming from if we interpret your declared actions in light of what the SedCom has taught us about b*tch shields, sh*t tests, etc. But these are usually unconscious and instinctive. You’re saying that you deliberately behave this way. Why? Why, as a Christian women, do you knowingly throw up extra hoops men must jump through in order to win you over? And the hoops, of course, involve much more than getting to church early and being willing to sit next to you. As I learned from experience, before learning about game, if a guy’s body language is off, he doesn’t have a good opener, he’s not projecting that “alpha” presence, etc., merely being willing to sit next to a strange girl and say “hi, my name’s Hermes, are you new here, where are you from,” etc., gets him NOWHERE.

  27. Wayfinder November 15, 2010 at 10:44 pm #

    I have to say, I’m not sure that I’ve ever considered sitting near a girl. Maybe I’m missing a golden opportunity.

    But on the other hand, I have to agree with Hermes that sitting next to a girl seems unworkable. There is too much violated etiquette and split-second timing to spend on a maybe for most guys. Plus, correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like quality guys probably won’t show up early unless they’re extreme extroverts. In my experience, guys don’t usually think like that. They’re much more likely to stick around afterwards, though.

    Won’t stop me from trying it, but I’d expect that it would never even occur to even most church-alpha guys.

  28. y81 November 16, 2010 at 5:04 am #

    Hermes, Wayfinder: You’ll note that Rebekah didn’t say that she actually did ever meet any guys this way. I am guessing that she has other priorities. Although the capacity of young women–indeed women of all ages–to adopt self-defeating strategies should not be underestimated.

  29. Wayfinder November 16, 2010 at 7:19 am #

    I’m beginning to suspect that a large part of a successful church mating strategy is going to involve (1) figuring what the girls are doing to sabotage themselves and then short-circuiting it, and (2) Figuring out what the guys are doing naturally and do the opposite.

  30. Rebekah November 16, 2010 at 8:06 pm #

    Men – you are disasterously funny.
    Hermes, your use of “by gum” is adorable.

    Yes, after church – it is rather awkward to stick around if one doesn’t know many people. If a woman is sitting alone, she’s practically bait waiting for a bite. Plain and simple. Sit by her, but not too creepy close. A little old lady should be able to squeeze between you.

    Rather than encouraging artificial openers, It would be socially expected for you to introduce yourself or at least say hello or good morning or whatnot. Watch for it next time you are at church: $5 says there’s a few “single sitters” waiting for your polite introduction. I suggest the stunning opener “is this seat taken”? Works like a charm. If the seat is taken, and she likes you – she will likely point out that the seat on her other side is NOT taken. :)

    Best case scenario you can gallantly share your hymn book – no “game” required. Worst case scenario, you have narrowed thngs down for after service social opps. You can get a sense from her whether or not she wants to continue your conversation or not from the pre-service chit chat.

    Early bird gets the worm.

  31. AM November 16, 2010 at 8:52 pm #

    sounds like an ideal way to immediately identify yourself as “just a friend”

  32. Cpt. Capitalism November 17, 2010 at 10:37 pm #

    Uh, don’t mean to sound so simple. But may I ask a simple question?

    Would any guy here want to meet Rebekah?

    I don’t mean this to slander Rebekah, but I ask it as a serious question.

    Who would want to meet her, let alone date her? I literally picture a rabbid, frothing badger on a pew scaring away men.

  33. Joseph Dantes November 18, 2010 at 1:13 am #

    @ Cpt. Are you kidding? She has a bubbly irrational femininity that sounds way more fun that Haley’s steady rationalism.

    Sounds like you’re terrified of girliness, more’s the pity.

  34. Wayfinder November 18, 2010 at 11:23 am #

    I’m sure that once you get past her defenses she’s fine. I’m equally sure that no one has ever approached her on her terms.

    Like I said, I’m looking for a comparative advantage.

  35. Cpt. Capitalism November 18, 2010 at 1:14 pm #

    Duly noted (and excellent use of the economic term comparative advantage!)

    I’m just looking at it in terms of how much time I could spend playing Xbox or smoking a cigar instead of barking up a tree like that.

    All that being said, as a PK, I refuse to attend church ever again. Though I THOROUGHLY enjoy watching the chaos as feminism and spoiledbratamericanism clash with the religious world in the US. It’s like watching two galaxies collide. Nice pretty sparklies and boom-booms!

  36. Rebekah November 18, 2010 at 7:59 pm #

    Cap’n Crunch: I’m sure your Xbox would miss you far too much, no need to call the park warden for that tranquilizer gun after all. ;) If you keep working on that hand-eye coordination, you might be able to shoot one of us down yourself one day!

    Observe gentlemen… the elusive double neg! Dantes managed to simultaneously neg both Haley and I in one fell swoop. Good thing I have such sharp teeth and claws – we may get into a cat fight of some kind as we clamber into his Alpha arms.

    Dantes:+1 for gallantry noted. +2 points for accurately reading me as bubbly and feminine, leaving you at a spectacular +3. ;) Well played. (P.S. Good thing I’m so unapologetically forgiving and irrational or I would be forced to subtract 2 points for your calling me irrational.)

  37. Joseph Dantes November 19, 2010 at 3:51 am #

    @Rebekah Ah, but even the double neg is not so rare as a woman who both understands and appreciates it. Game set match.

    @Cpt. Ideally you could waste time with a woman while simultaneously playing xBox and smoking a cigar, if your chair is designed correctly. Just pause inbetween hugs.

    Also, what is a PK?

  38. Cpt. Capitalism November 19, 2010 at 7:50 am #

    Preacher’s Kid.

    You get to see all the wonderful politics and dirty sausage making going on behind the church the rest of congregation doesn’t get to see.

  39. Joseph Dantes November 19, 2010 at 1:06 pm #

    Ah, understood Cpt. A similar experience pre-game left me quite bitter.

    I’ve watched a fair amount of reality TV, to try to test my predictive ability on micro expressions, social dynamics and race. The Apprentice, Survivor, G’s to Gents.

    It’s easy to build up a lot of hate and cynicism. But those shows demonstrate that human nature persists without regard for church walls.

    Season 13 of Survivor took a lot of the wind out of that bitterness. There’s truth in cynicism, but there’s also a higher way. Looking at churches as nothing more than paleo villages filled with cackling poultry, sex and intrigue is a refreshing reality. But you can nonetheless rise above.

    I had the seeds of that belief before, but needed to see it done. I think I might be ready to go back to church.

  40. Cpt. Capitalism November 19, 2010 at 1:19 pm #

    Oh don’t worry, I’ve risen above.

    Enjoy your sabbatical at church. Let me know if there’s anything aside from sheep there. In the mean time I’ll watch the “church world” like I would a Shakespearian tragedy as it unfolds and destroys itself.

  41. Rebekah November 20, 2010 at 10:03 am #

    P.S. Hermes – I agree that “being willing to sit next to a strange girl and say “hi, my name’s Hermes, are you new here, where are you from,” etc.” gets a guy “NOWHERE”.

    You’d have to add on something fashionable like… “hey, would you like to go for coffee sometime” or “it was nice to meet you. Can I take you for lunch next week after service?” if you wanted it to go somewhere. And? You’d have to be prepared for a “no thanks” which is tough but better than getting nowhere.

    p.s. “where are you from” or “where do you live” or “do you come here all the time” are typical “stalker” questions and are to be avoided on first meeting. It will draw a big fat question mark in her head about your intentions immediately. “Is this guy going to put me in the trunk of his car?” is not the first thing you want her mind going to when she thinks of your lovely face…

    That’s why professional stalkers and creeps just try to trick women into revealing that kind of information by revealing similar information about themselves to build trust. But, hey – that’s a whole new topic for Haley to conquer. “Things stalker creeps do and say”.

  42. knepper November 20, 2010 at 12:43 pm #

    Rebekah –I like the way you think. Are you sure you’re a girl? (Just kidding!) I’m sure that alpha men could easily pull off the social interaction involved with sitting next to a strange girl in church when there were other seats available. But most betas would start stammering and sweating profusely, which would immediately get them classified as stalkers! To those who have, more will be given. Yet, any man who is unwilling to take a chance will never get the girl, for sure.

  43. y81 November 20, 2010 at 2:09 pm #

    I must say, from a perspective of male rationality, that arriving at church five minutes early in order to meet girls seems like about the lowest percentage strategy I could imagine. Now if Rebekah looks like Michelle Pfeiffer, then maybe it has a positive expected value, but otherwise not. In a bar or a party or various group activities, you can meet ten girls in an hour, but here, you come in, you get one shot to locate the right girl, make the right impression, say the right things, and have it all work out? And if it doesn’t, you’re now locked into a socially awkward, spiritually unrewarding situation for the next hour and a half? No thanks.

  44. Aunt Haley November 21, 2010 at 12:47 am #

    You pooh-pooh every strategy that isn’t using the friends and family network. Chatting up girls before church may not have the highest yield, but it’s not a terrible idea to diversify the portfolio, either.

  45. y81 November 21, 2010 at 9:04 am #

    AH: That’s very clever, continuing the econo-nerd theme which has meandered through this thread. You should hang out with more investment bankers. You would understand their jokes and could make some of your own. A lot of guys in financial services would like that kind of girl: someone with a “soft,” female job involving entertainment, but able to see a guy’s “expected value” with her own “diversified portfolio.”

  46. knepper November 21, 2010 at 10:42 am #

    In other words, the ROI (return on investment) is not too bad for this strategy. It’s not very likely to pay off, but on the other hand, you were planning to go to church anyway (right?) so you didn’t risk much additional time. You sold me. One problem though. If it’s a new church, how do you know the chick is really single? Maybe her husband is in the worship team, or maybe he’s in the service. In this case, you could commit a real Christian faux pax if you press too hard.

  47. Aunt Haley November 21, 2010 at 10:47 am #

    As long as you’re not visibly drooling and are looking her in the eyes, you’ll be fine. If she’s married to the guitar player or dating him, she’ll probably say so very early on in the conversation. Also, look for a ring on her finger.

  48. Rebekah November 21, 2010 at 3:58 pm #

    Haley is right – she’s going to ‘let you know’.

    Y81 – “here, you come in, you get one shot to locate the right girl, make the right impression, say the right things, and have it all work out? And if it doesn’t, you’re now locked into a socially awkward, spiritually unrewarding situation for the next hour and a half? No thanks”

    … nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    How “spiritually rewarding” is that bar scene for you?

  49. Wayfinder November 21, 2010 at 4:57 pm #

    Note that this applies too the girls too, of course. If she wants the best chance to meet a guy, she may need to hang around afterwards and actually introduce herself to some people. I’ve noticed that many girls seem to view saying “Hi” as being forward and aggressive, but I promise you that guys won’t view it that way.

    If a guy comes up to us and introduces himself, we assume it’s basic manners. If you put up your shield and hurry out the door, you’re going to ignore all of the guys who were trained to be polite.

    Would guys have a better chance if they introduced themselves? Yes.
    Are girls sabotaging themselves when they insist that they can’t take any action at all in fear of losing their reputation? Yes.
    Should both sides get over it? Yes.

  50. y81 November 21, 2010 at 7:28 pm #

    Rebekah: I try to spend the five minutes before the service meditating on my own iniquities and His incalculable mercy. Hopefully, I can maintain that sensibility throughout the entire service. That is what I consider a spiritually rewarding mental state, not brooding about what I did wrong in hitting on the girl next to me.

    Has the “come to church five minutes early, leave as soon as the service ends” technique actually led to any LTRs for you? I’d love to hear the details. What did he say, what did he do, what happened next? Are you married now? I explained my own first date with my wife a while back.

  51. Rebekah November 21, 2010 at 10:16 pm #

    Knepper blew my cover! How’d you know? (you a woman? or were you just negging me?) Dantes – I did get some help with posts from my wing woman so no need for that antiseptic shower.

    Undercover research: another PUA blew his cover with my (HB) coworker and she came to me – presumably for advice? (Total friends zone!) “Advice” given was strategic. …but now she knows guys run game so I’ve got to get new strategy. HB!!

    (Y81 – she’s the “single sitter” who disappears after service. No idea how to talk to her outside of work, and she’s close to being my boss …so church is it. I’m not officially LJBF’d but it’s not like I can freeze her out. I stopped texting her and that did NOTHING.) This one is ice cold (professionalism? Disinterest?) She won’t date a coworker or so she says but we’ve been group/work “friends” for a while. I’ve got a bad case of oneitis. Definite LTR material.

    I know I’m supposed to game other girls, become more Alpha, but its just not helping (ok, it’s not happening: she’s connected and I don’t want to blow my chance by dating her friends: she’s sucked up all that courtship/Joshua Harris material).

    In short, help.

  52. Joseph Dantes November 22, 2010 at 1:09 am #

    If you didn’t get help from your wingwoman with that latest post, I’d suggest a strict regimine of masculinization.

  53. Joseph Dantes November 22, 2010 at 2:13 am #

    Considering who was the girl in the little e-flirtation, I don’t think my face is the one that needs washing.

  54. Rebekah November 22, 2010 at 5:37 pm #


  55. Rebekah November 22, 2010 at 5:39 pm #

    …but I should add that as a fake woman, even I was more womanly than Haley! I think someone else needs to come out of the closet.

  56. Joseph Dantes November 22, 2010 at 7:59 pm #

    What is that… tranny pride?

  57. y81 November 23, 2010 at 9:16 am #

    I don’t think there is any solution for “Rebekah’s” problem, now that its true dimensions are revealed. PUA techniques are generally directed at getting you the girls who can be got. (Even if you successfully go after the prettiest girl in the bar, she’s a girl in a bar, not a nun.) Here we have a girl who isn’t interested, so probably nothing can be done.

    “Rebekah” needs an adjustment of mental attitude. When I was single, I often had episodes of unrequited love and adoration (aka crushes), but I never let them interfere with my sex life. You have to learn to dissociate sex and romantic adoration. For a guy, this shouldn’t be difficult. Think of Miss Unapproachable as the fair lady in the tower for whom you have Courtly Love, while you merrily boink some peasant girls.


  1. Linkage is Good for You: You Know What the Pattern Is Edition - November 7, 2010

    […] Haley – “Male IOIs.“, “Why Girls Bolt After Church.“, “Writing a Successful Online Dating […]

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