If I like him, he can do better.

5 Dec

I met today with a couple of female friends, and, as is usually the case when two or more female friends gather, conversation turned to dating and male/female relationships.  At the moment, none of us is dating anyone nor has any prospectives in the pipeline, so whoever out there thinks that “good girls” get snapped up like cake at a Weight Watchers meeting, think again.

One friend mentioned how she had gone to a recovering addicts celebration/gathering at another local church and had become annoyed by the fact that as she was walking to the venue from parking, a very good-looking young man was walking not far behind her yet did not attempt to strike up a conversation even though it was evident that they were going to the same place.  Eventually they were forced to stop at a light, whereupon my friend took it upon herself to start talking to this guy, and they chatted all the way to the church.  Tonight she was planning on returning to the same church with some hopes of seeing him again.

After hearing this story, I said that I almost never talk to men who I think are good-looking because I assume that I will not meet their minimum standard of attractiveness and they will act like they would rather have their teeth drilled without Novacaine than talk to me.  I’ve had this happen before.  The man will give half-hearted, simple-sentence responses, never look you in the eye, act agitated, and generally give the impression of someone who is silently cursing his upbringing as he tries to tolerate your substandard presence for the minimum time required to feign politeness.  It is a simultaneously depressing and infuriating experience and is a huge waste of time.

My friend expressed great surprise at this revelation and quickly assured me that I could have anyone that I wanted.  I immediately shut down that possibility, citing, well, my life to date.  My friend told me that I needed to stop thinking this way.  I pointed out that life experience made it pretty difficult to.  My friend then said something that surprised me:  that she talks to men assuming that they will be interested and that men’s standards of attractiveness are not actually very high so long as you act smiley and bubbly.

I suppose, on the one hand, that to have success, you first have to have a successful attitude.  Surly warts do not win hearts.  On the other hand, the laws of the sexual marketplace are pretty immutable, and the likelihood that you will be the one to defy them successfully is pretty low to nonexistent.  I just know, both through reading and from experience, that if I find a man attractive – especially if he is objectively good-looking – then lots of other women will think the same.  And given the statistics of it all, the likelihood that I will be better-looking than all of the other women who are interested is probably going to be more or less zero; in other words, he will always have more appealing options than myself.  There is always going to be someone who laughs more at his jokes, who thinks he is smarter than I think he is, who wears a smaller clothing size than I do, who has a prettier face, who has a better body, who is more charming than I am, who is less opinionated than I am, who is willing to get in psychological turf wars with other women in order to get the guy, who is willing to make herself more sexually available, and – the older I get – who is younger than I am.

So whose approach is better – the optimist’s or the rationalist’s?  I don’t know.  Probably the best thing is to find someone you think is good-looking that no one else thinks is good-looking* and who honestly thinks you’re the best he can do even if it’s not true (if he’s good enough for you, he can probably do better than you).  I think it’s pretty rare, though not quite as rare as finding a unicorn or a chupacabra.

*The guy I had a massive crush on during my freshman year of college is someone I thought was fairly textbook tall, dark, mysterious, and handsome (AND A GOOD DANCER. AND SMELLED DIVINE), but my friends all made eww faces when I said I thought he looked great.  Of course, he ended up marrying the annoying girl from our dorm.  Oh, well.

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61 Responses to “If I like him, he can do better.”

  1. Joseph Dantes December 6, 2010 at 1:35 am #

    Aaand Haley still has zero girl game. Probly why this blog appeals to mainly guys.

  2. Risky Business December 6, 2010 at 2:11 am #

    We need pics to verify your market value. Then we’ll tell you what we really think from the safety of our internet anonymity. haha.

    I don’t know if it is true that if you find a guy attractive all other girls will agree. Certainly that may be true for certain men that are perfect adonis types, but I think women tend to be more fickle in their preferences and it depends on a lot more. Based on my experience, I think the average-looking non-creepy/dorky guy can get a positive initial response from 10-20% of available women. Not sure if the opposite holds true for women, but maybe you can play the numbers game.

  3. Dave December 6, 2010 at 3:46 am #

    Wow that is a negative view of the world. I don’t know what constitutes girl game, as a guy, but I will say that I’ve dated women from all over the spectrum. Every person, from eight to eighty, has a different vibe, a different combo of funny, smart, pretty, fun, etc etc etc. I don’t always date the most attractive ones, but it’s always the ones I feel comfortable with. And the only way to know that is to talk to lots of them. So every chance you get, crack a smile, make a silly joke, break the ice. Because if the only data I have is raw attractiveness, that’s the only way for me to tell the difference between you and anyone else. So go for it! Plus, positive women are generallynhotter. Just sayin’

  4. Ilíon December 6, 2010 at 4:59 am #

    Haley, though I’ve stopped reading your blog (I doubt I was even a blip on your radar), but I haven’t disabled email updates, so I became aware of this entry.

    You really need to stop thinking in term of “Game” (and stop reading “Game” pseudo-philosophy) — men really are not that utterly shallow.

    It’s obvious — you state/demonstrate it in this entry — that you assume from the very start that no man … or, at any rate, no man who meets your standards of physical attractiveness … can possibly be attracted to you. “Game” merely serves as justification for that defeatist attitude.

  5. Toz December 6, 2010 at 5:08 am #

    Haley, your strategy would be rational if you assumed every male was an alpha. Alphas know how much choice have and can coldly calculate where they are in the marketplace of dating. Betas, in general do not. That is, they have little game so have no means of price discovery. So roughly 80% of men out there have little to no clue as to how attractive they are to women. Like women, many of them figure out their market value based on previous experiences and social proof, which oftentimes is a terrible indicator of actual market value. Hence, your approach is not “rational”, but simply pessimistic. Your friend, on the other hand, is playing the whole dating scene rationally. She knows there isn’t an easy way for most (beta) men to discover their own market value, so she presents herself as great value for them. Unless she’s really ugly, it won’t be obvious whether she’s shooting high or low, and given the general lack of other information, many guys will just go for what they know they can get.

    Haley, if you’re not going to join any clubs that won’t have you as a member, you’re not going to be in any clubs. I’d say the rational strategy is to date betas (honestly, it’s not that hard to game one) and train them up to alphas. It’s almost never about how good looking they are, but how they present themselves. Just make sure they have rock-solid morals so they don’t go trading you up for a better model (pun intended).

  6. Hermit December 6, 2010 at 5:09 am #

    “We need pics to verify your market value.”

    I’m thinking the same thing. Of course meeting IRL, a person of sufficient honesty could tell you exactly where you’re going wrong Haley. I’ve had friends try to hook me up with girls, I talk to them on the phone and get along great, then once meeting up IRL and find we don’t get along at all.

  7. Josh December 6, 2010 at 6:12 am #

    There is always going to be someone who laughs more at his jokes, who thinks he is smarter than I think he is, who wears a smaller clothing size than I do, who has a prettier face, who has a better body, who is more charming than I am, who is less opinionated than I am, who is willing to get in psychological turf wars with other women in order to get the guy, who is willing to make herself more sexually available, and – the older I get – who is younger than I am.

    Basically, you think that making the necessary behavioral and physical changes to acquire a man of your liking is beneath you.

    Men want respect more than love, and a proud woman, even one who is insightful and mostly correct, plays second fiddle to a woman who is unconditionally supportive and generous.

  8. Andre December 6, 2010 at 6:15 am #

    A negative viewpoint, especially about themselves, is IMO ( and many other mens opinions) not at all attractive. Yes, there are always women ‘better’ than you. There area always men ‘better’ / more ‘alpha’ than me. That does not mean however, that there is not a good loking man who will find you attractive and fall in love with you. When I met my wife, I was dating someone with larger chest than her, and considered equally attractive to most men. However, despite her somewhat ‘better’ body, I dropped her and pursued my wife. Been married 20 years.

    The PUA sites do not have it all correct – the process good men use for choosing a long term mate is significantly different than the process PUA use to choose the next pump & dump.

  9. Josh December 6, 2010 at 6:18 am #

    And as to your friend, she is basically right, that as long as you act smiley and bubbly men’s standards aren’t that high, for the reasons mentioned by Toz.

    But look at what she said. My friend expressed great surprise at this revelation and quickly assured me that I could have anyone that I wanted. She was giving that same unconditional support (even in the face of reality), that men desire. Without knowing any more about her, I assume it is in her nature to act this way.

  10. Ilíon December 6, 2010 at 6:41 am #

    Men want respect more than love, …

    That’s close, but not quite right, for love and respect are the same thing, just examined or understood with a different focus.

    What men want is the respect of a woman whom they love.

    What women want is the love of a man whom they respect.

    Thus, there shouldn’t be a problem … except that human beings are notoriously perverse.

  11. ListenToYourFriend (mostly) December 6, 2010 at 6:46 am #

    “My friend expressed great surprise at this revelation and quickly assured me that I could have anyone that I wanted.”

    If your friend meant this literally, she was wrong. Such a blanket assertion would be wrong for any woman (or man).

    “My friend then said something that surprised me: that she talks to men assuming that they will be interested and that men’s standards of attractiveness are not actually very high so long as you act smiley and bubbly.”

    In my experience, your friend is mostly right on this.

    “I almost never talk to men who I think are good-looking because I assume that I will not meet their minimum standard of attractiveness and they will act like they would rather have their teeth drilled without Novacaine than talk to me.”

    If your description of men’s reactions is accurate, the reactions are probably not due to a lack of attractiveness on your part, but rather something about your demeanor or the things you choose to converse about. In my experience, most men and women interact comfortably and frequently with, converse and joke with people whom they don’t find attractive, people who are much older, people who are of an incompatible sexual orientation, and so on. A lack of physical attraction, on its own, should not induce the extreme reactions you describe.

  12. Brendan December 6, 2010 at 7:36 am #

    Keying on what some others have said here, from the typical (read: Beta) guy perspective, he isn’t operating from a position of perceived abundance, and therefore an overheated sense of his own sex rank and opportunities. That’s what an *alpha* male is like, because he has so many opportunities literally dumped in his lap … but your typical beta, even a “higher” beta, doesn’t have that, so he isn’t going to be as typically dismissive as you suggest. I did notice, however, that your own (and your friends’) comments focused a lot on the physical sex rank of the guys in question. This could be a part of the issue here. While good looks are not as important for guys in terms of sex rank as they are for women, nevertheless the quite good looking guys get a lot of opportunities in today’s freewheeling SMP, and if these are the guys that are getting your (and your friends’) attention, then you could be setting yourself up here — i.e., you could be focusing your attraction on specifically the kinds of men who have more opportunities, and hence setting yourself up to lose a very competitive race at that point.

    Assuming you’re speaking about men with roughly equal sex rank to yours, there shouldn’t be a need to be pessimistic. You’re in the ballpark physically at that point, and so then in terms of LTR selecting for guys it becomes more focused on persona. The pessimism and negativity probably helps to run down otherwise attractive aspects of your persona, but in any case, by and large, most guys prefer less edgy/pushy/opinionated/forceful and more soft/fun/laughter/perky … by and large. You might not like to hear that, because it may not match your “natural” persona, but that’s the same song and dance that beta guys get from women because their own “natural persona” doesn’t match what women prefer, either. Men and women alike need to ditch this idea that we get to just “show up as we are” and find a mate who loves us for that –> we may very well do so, but that’s a low-probability/high-risk strategy. The fact remains that there are some personae that by and large men find attractive in women (and some that they find unattractive) and that similarly there are some personae that by and large women find attractive in men (and some that they find unattractive). No-one is telling beta males they have a right to embrace their betatude and get the women they want — it’s pointless because they’re not presenting in a way that will be attractive. The same can be said for how certain women present. The good news is that this can be changed, to some degree, with effort and work and self-discipline.

  13. Joseph Dantes December 6, 2010 at 7:42 am #

    You could just try acting like a Russian girl:

    “American women have been raised to believe that traditional qualities of femininity—appearing as though you are trying to please the man by caking on makeup, wearing tight short skirts that show off your legs, speaking in a high voice, giggling, and deferring to his desires—as well as characteristics usually used to describe sluts—high heels, heavy perfume, sleeping with a man on the first night without demanding he use a condom—are not only atavistic and repugnant but, ultimately, unsuccessful tactics in the competition for Mr. Right.”

  14. J December 6, 2010 at 7:48 am #

    Here is the deal.

    There are roughly the same number of men and women, so to a first order estimate says everyone will get someone. You can talk around this point all day but thats the basic situation. In reality, we’re just all playing for position.

    Some people hold out too long and get caught with a reduced selection. Others settle too soon and could have done better. This is the fundamental game mechanic at work.

    You are going to end up with someone with roughly the same value. The market is efficient that way.

    If the guy is roughly in your league, there is no reason you can’t get him. That doesn’t mean you will. Just because you will end up with someone in your league doesn’t mean you will end up with a specific person in your league.

    So if you are being realistic, there is no reason to lament.

    If on the other hand, you are just complaining that you can’t have someone who is way out of your league, well. That’s just being stupid.

    You can, however, try to upgrade yourself. Increase your own value and thus the value of someone in your league.

    I hope that helps.

    [Haley: This post got caught in the spam filter due to using a fake email address. Please use a real email address in the future, or I won’t approve the post if it gets caught in the filter again.]

  15. Wayfinder December 6, 2010 at 8:13 am #

    Your friend (and everybody in the comments) is pretty much right.

    I’m constantly surprised by how much some girls will sabotage themselves. Leaving rapidly after church, huddling in a herd of girls, and assuming that a guy could do better than her are all things that will eliminate a lot of guys.

    It sounds like you’re coming across as cold and distant. Or critical and harsh, which isn’t much better. It’s basically an announcement that you think you’re either too high for him to bother, or too low to be worth it.

    You know that guys aren’t attracted to the same things that girls are. Act on it. In my (limited) experience, most girls would probably do better if they just made themselves more available to the right guys. Most guys would do better if they managed to get past the girls’ jerk-filter.

  16. Hope December 6, 2010 at 11:40 am #

    I used to be super pessimistic like that, too. I thought I was fat (I never went above 115lbs), ugly, dumb, and that guys could do much better than a horrible person like me. I constantly talked about how life sucks and isn’t worth living. Then I got a clue and set out to improve myself. I exercised, ate healthily, and got a better attitude. Which version was more attractive to the majority of guys? I don’t think there was any contest.

    Being friendly and generally projecting a positive, happy vibe, and presenting yourself in such a way that you are open to conversation and friendships, is as good as adding at least a point to your attractiveness factor. There aren’t too many men who want to rescue a depressed/suicidal and always negative girl from herself, although they might brave it if she’s incredibly gorgeous. But most healthy, well-adjusted men want similarly healthy, well-adjusted women.

    Guys don’t like overly self-critical women because even if she doesn’t cross over to criticizing others, it would be highly likely that she’s going to have issues. They might also start to suspect something really is wrong with her and stay away. I used to think and present myself as a 3, and that was the kind of guys I ended up attracting. When I started thinking of myself as at least a 7, that was around the time I met my awesome husband.

  17. Erin December 6, 2010 at 11:55 am #

    Well, I think it’s a balance. Present your best self, be friendly to all the men you meet–because you never know what a guy is looking for.

    Be especially attuned to, and open to, those men who you DO think are on the same “level” as you–because it is true that when two people have parity, they are more likely to get together and stay together.

    I think there can be a tendency to think that if you find a guy attractive, he couldn’t feel the same way about you. However, when eventually you find a match, you will find attractive someone who finds you attractive!

  18. Bob December 6, 2010 at 2:16 pm #

    Can’t remember where I read it, but the art of success is maintaining blief in one’s own infallibility while still learning from mistakes. The rationalist can rapidly become jaded and surrender, when faced with the same odds as an optimist, but who’s still playing, and therefore has a chance to win?

    Look at it this way. If attitude matters, you must be positive. If attitude doesn’t matter, being positive will not affect your chances of success – though it may affect your enjoyment of the game. Game theory (the Beautiful Mind kind) would say to be happy.

  19. Silas Reinagel December 6, 2010 at 4:58 pm #

    Warmth, positivity and a healthy self-image make a huge difference.

    In fact, a good personality and attentiveness to appearance will make a huge difference with men who are interested in real relationships and/or genuine connection.

    Raw physical sexual appeal is far from the only thing that matters (especially to alphas), and woe to the woman who has neither a desirable body nor a charming and pleasant personality…

  20. The Man Who Was . . . December 6, 2010 at 6:48 pm #

    I don’t at all recommend that you put pictures out there, but it is very true that it is hard for us guys to give you any useful advice about what is going wrong without seeing what you look like.

  21. Augustine DeCarthage December 6, 2010 at 8:27 pm #

    Lotta wisdom in this thread. I’ll say one thing briefly.

    Haley, you seem to assume that the attractive men (from your perception) have it all figured out. You seem to assume that they are all perfectly aware of their exact position in the SMP. Chances are, most of these guys (except for the natural Alphas) don’t. Most of the guys you perceive as attractive spent years as un-datable schmoes and may still see themselves that way. Some don’t, of course, which is a good thing. But the ones who still think that way operate under the rules that all unattractive men are bombarded with: “Don’t bother women, because they don’t want to talk to you and they don’t want your attention.” Some of these guys don’t realize that they are now considered attractive.

    So when you a man doesn’t interact with you, it may not be for the reason you think. It may be, that’s true, but then again it may not.

  22. David Collard December 7, 2010 at 2:41 am #

    “What men want is the respect of a woman whom they love.

    What women want is the love of a man whom they respect.”

    Beautifully and elegantly put.

    Men don’t always know how attractive they are. I had a girl tell me that she hoped I never found out! I went out with a very unattractive girl because I didn’t think I was much good myself. And I probably didn’t marry the best looking girl I could, because I valued other traits too. Most men have a “type” they like, and if you meet that minimum, they will be interested.

  23. P December 7, 2010 at 3:25 am #

    Haley,

    There are two major problems in your thinking.

    One, which I get primarily from your last post, is an excessive preference for “alpha males” which has probably influenced your relationship history. Remember, in game theory, hypergamy:women::polygyny:men. In other words, if you want an “alpha male,” are you prepared to accept that he will have a mistress?

    Christian monogamy is intrinsically an exercise of the commandment: “deny thyself, pick up thy cross, and followest thou me.”

    Your standards remain too carnal. Grace builds on nature, so it is foolish to attempt to act (or expect others to act) contrary to nature, but we should attempt to exceed nature. Marriage requires more than following after our monkey tingles.

    Secondly, many men do just that, contrary to your expectations. Physical appearance does not occupy the place of importance in men’s relationship choices that you think it does. Here is how it works:

    Men date for looks, they commit for personality.

    Admittedly, they don’t commit to anyone they haven’t dated, so looks will always count for something – if after making love to you a man would need to go preach repentance to the Ninevites, you’re going to have problems (unless you find a man with a fondness for whales).

    But in the end looks are more binary then a continuum. A girl’s looks are either “yes” or “no.” True, some are “heck yea!” but that doesn’t really matter. Why you ask? Because men aren’t really that stupid. The fact is, the girl who is gorgeous now will be serviceable 10 years from now, and not much at all 20 years from now. In the long run, all chicks are ugly (and the run ain’t that long!).

    So between one girl with 10 looks and a 6 personality, and another girl with 6 looks and an 8 personality, the former will have a much easier time getting laid, but a much harder time getting married than the latter.

    You don’t need to be the best looking girl around, or the best looking girl a guy has ever gone out with, or even the best looking girl trying to get a guy right now – you just have to be good looking enough for the guy to anticipate the idea of having sex with you, and be someone he would still want to be around the morning after (and the morning after that…)

    If you want an example, observe the following video :

    Short skirt and pretty face vs. bring guy soup when he’s sick = beauty FAIL, compassion WIN

  24. jack December 7, 2010 at 9:55 am #

    “*The guy I had a massive crush on during my freshman year of college is someone I thought was fairly textbook tall, dark, mysterious, and handsome (AND A GOOD DANCER. AND SMELLED DIVINE), but my friends all made eww faces when I said I thought he looked great. Of course, he ended up marrying the annoying girl from our dorm. Oh, well.”

    Aha!

    A beautiful kernel of truth. And one that explains why so many women are alone.

    The Whisperers (as described by Dalrock) enforce on each other. Some girls who juuuust might consider a nice beta will INSTEAD abandon that thought in the interests of maintaining acceptable status with the girl group she travels in.

    This is why the SMP is irreparably broken – women are (for the most part) the ones who are running the show.

    This means that once a small minority of women find a guy “unattractive”, they can vote him out of the dating market altogether.

    This leads me to a nice little aphorism:

    Women more often need protection from other women than they do from men.

  25. Aunt Haley December 7, 2010 at 10:05 am #

    Josh–
    She was giving that same unconditional support (even in the face of reality), that men desire.

    Women are socially obligated to tell their friends encouraging untruths. The friends of ANY woman who expresses self-doubt about her attractiveness will assure her that she is indeed a catch. (This particular friend of mine IS a very encouraging person in general, however.)

    Man Who Was–
    I don’t at all recommend that you put pictures out there, but it is very true that it is hard for us guys to give you any useful advice about what is going wrong without seeing what you look like.

    You’re preaching to the choir: no pictures. I’m probably better-looking in everyone’s imagination, anyway. ;)

    jack–
    A beautiful kernel of truth. And one that explains why so many women are alone.

    Have fun swimming back from the Island of Conclusions. You’re completely off-base on this one.

  26. Ilíon December 7, 2010 at 10:13 am #

    Have fun swimming back from the Island of Conclusions. You’re completely off-base on this one.

    Actually, he isn’t completely off-base; the only off-base part is that silly talk about “betas.”

  27. Joseph Dantes December 7, 2010 at 11:51 am #

    I have to say, this post could be retitled, “Jack’s justification.”

  28. Hope December 7, 2010 at 12:00 pm #

    Jack does have a point about women’s “whispers” in closed social circles. My husband was voted out of being a suitable romantic interest in high school and during his time at Peace Corps. It worked out well in the end for me, because he’s a great catch, but he did mention that in the past, women would say things like he was acting too “interested” or talk about his unflattering characteristics. Keep in mind he’s a physically above average guy, 6′, good build, symmetrical features, emotionally open and expressive, and well over above average in IQ. He’s just not very suave with women, which in my opinion is a good thing.

    The other key point is that when you have a crush on a guy, you should find some way of getting to know him better and letting him know. It doesn’t matter what keeps you from doing this, whether it’s other women’s whispers or your own insecurities, but you have to get over that mental hurdle. Put yourself out there in front of him. Don’t chase like a desperate stalker or flirt like you want a fling, but also don’t just stand off all aloof and occasionally glance over, or pretend you couldn’t possibly be interested. In the beginning I had a bit of a crush on my husband, but nothing developed until we started talking more to each other on a friendly and much more in-depth basis.

    Also, David is right. Men (not players) don’t always know how attractive they are. Often men miss signals of interest from women, and some men were rejected when younger and so never do real “approaches” when older. My husband was this way, and if I hadn’t given him obvious signals of interest (talking to him A LOT), he would have never made a substantial move, partially because before then, I was just another stranger. A man won’t date you, much less marry you, if he doesn’t ever get the chance to know you. And it’s not “chasing” a guy if you just strike up a friendly conversation with him, and letting him know you exist and are a happy, cool and interesting girl who happens to be single.

  29. Wayfinder December 7, 2010 at 12:17 pm #

    A man won’t date you, much less marry you, if he doesn’t ever get the chance to know you. And it’s not “chasing” a guy if you just strike up a friendly conversation with him, and letting him know you exist and are a happy, cool and interesting girl who happens to be single.

    I just want to echo Hope’s last point, since it seems to be a hang up for a lot of “good” girls. If you’re not available, no one can pursue you.

  30. Julie December 7, 2010 at 12:26 pm #

    I never let friends influence who I was attracted to. If anything, it was me being instinctively drawn to alpha males of questionable character, and my friends trying to let me know that he didn’t seem very trustworthy, or he wasn’t acting invested in me. If I had been interested in a beta, and therefore found myself with a quality man who invested in me, and who I did not have to compete for with every other woman, my friends couldn’t have talked me out of that.

  31. jack December 7, 2010 at 12:51 pm #

    “Have fun swimming back from the Island of Conclusions. You’re completely off-base on this one.”

    SHAMING LANGUAGE!!!

    Haha – j/k.

    Whether or my assertion applies to you (I will take you at your word), you have still exposed the mechanism by which this happens. And it DOES happen.

    This also explains why people wear odd clothing or listen to stupid music. It’s all about fashion. Since your Girl Circle issued their vote of “eewww”, most girls would not have the internal fortitude to cross the sexual picket line and initiate with that guy.

    Side note: Men are not generally like this, for the most part. Our ultimate fantasy is to find a hot girl that no one else thinks is attractive.

    Further:

    And what is the purpose of issuing the “eewww” anyway? To discourage you from initiating with him? Internal policing of the girl circle?

    Or, maybe, just possibly, there is nothing more gleefully satisfying to the Modern American Woman than finding reasons why a man is unworthy of her affection?

    Princess Suzi, endlessly rejecting unworthy suitors – another hard day at the office for a gal!

    Maybe it is just the other side of the guy fantasy of a huge harem of hotties. It’s that the girl wants a huge man-harem of rejectees. Perfectly natural human impulse.

    JosephD-

    You could always apply the “broken clock is right twice a day” explanation for my apparent accuracy on this one. I won’t mind if you attribute it to a lucky accident.

  32. jack December 7, 2010 at 12:57 pm #

    “A man won’t date you, much less marry you, if he doesn’t ever get the chance to know you. And it’s not “chasing” a guy if you just strike up a friendly conversation with him, and letting him know you exist and are a happy, cool and interesting girl who happens to be single.”

    Yes. Pursuit is the man’s responsibility. Making oneself available for pursuit is the woman’s.

    When I am looking for a car, I don’t start knocking on random doors asking if they have a car for sale. I look for someone who is advertising that they have a car available.

    Too often, many women try to strictly control their signs of availability. Icing the daylights out of most men, and then turning into a gooey pile of smiles and demure expressions when around high-status guys.

    This fails unless the girl is quite desirable herself.

    Additionally, most girls will never, ever experience being pursued actively by a high status man for anything other than short term activities.

  33. Julie December 7, 2010 at 1:24 pm #

    Jack, my girlfriends and I never sat around and talked negatively about men. Many of them dated and married men that I wasn’t attracted to. Also, it is not pleasant to reject men–this is why women try to be nice about it.

  34. jack December 7, 2010 at 3:54 pm #

    Julie-

    Let me rephrase – not all women enjoy the ACT of rejection (some do, of course, as every man knows).

    I think many more, though, enjoy the process of deciding that the guy is not worthy. In other words they love the process of selecting and filtering. The rejection DECISION is enjoyable. They would prefer not to have to actually ACT OUT the rejection. This is why they ice most males so aggressively. It is pre-jection.

    Those girls in the story issuing their “eewww” – was this accompanied by a sense of regret that this fellow was unfortunate to be so undesirable?

    I remember a certain contingent of kids in school who laughed at the retarded kids at lunchtime. Not to their faces, of course.

    Women often seem to have this amazingly pure Darwinism when it comes to social interaction.

    An oldy but goody:

    http://eumaios.wordpress.com/2010/01/05/sex-and-the-churchy/

    Reference his comment about beta males in the church being “very courteously hate hate hated.”

  35. Julie December 7, 2010 at 4:46 pm #

    Hmmm…trying to remember if I enjoyed that process. I really don’t think so. I was more anxious and sad that it seemed to be taking forever to find someone compatible with me who I could make a life with. I was hoping for more men to pass through my filters! I don’t think this was all because of an inclination toward alphas, although that was certainly an impediment. It was also about all the weird, quirky, unique and faulty things about me that were just not going to be a match for most men.

  36. jack December 7, 2010 at 5:28 pm #

    Julie

    As always, there are exceptions.

  37. knepper December 7, 2010 at 5:38 pm #

    You are an intelligent girl, Haley, and I realize it must be like fingernails on the chalkboard for you to hear guys say, ‘be more bouncy and fun like brainless Betty over here, and guys will love you!’ Yet there is more than a kernel of truth here. One, many guys (myself included) like a cheerful girl because they themselves are not natured that way, and they like someone who will lift them out of their gloomy introspection at times. But more important, a negative attitude is a huge downer in love and in life. Presentation is everything, and when you exude rays of negativity and self-pity (ouch) everyone else cannot help notice and be repelled by it (and I say this as the King of Self-Pitiers).
    Also, I think you may be still carrying a torch for this idealized Big Crush, who was perfect in every way, in your imagination. Been there, done that. Put that idol to death, at once! He never would have lived up to your imagination anyway.

  38. Aunt Haley December 7, 2010 at 7:52 pm #

    jack–
    Whether or my assertion applies to you (I will take you at your word), you have still exposed the mechanism by which this happens. And it DOES happen.

    While I’m sure that some girls get talked out of their interest in guys by their friends (sometimes for their own good), you are completely wrong about my freshman crush.

    knepper–
    You’re not the King of Self-Pitiers. You’ll have to fight jack for that honor.

    Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to go paint my nails black while I sit on my pink frilly bedspread listening to Evanescence on repeat and stare at the poster of Edward Cullen on my wall, longing for the day a strong, handsome man will discover and love the unfathomable depths of my aching soul.

  39. Joseph Dantes December 7, 2010 at 8:34 pm #

    Jack, I think your apparent accuracy here is due to the fact that despite both your and Haley’s superficial familiarity with Game, you’re both still clueless and alone.

    Please note that you in no way surpass me in misogyny, but only in hopelessness, bitterness, and ineffectualness.

  40. jack December 7, 2010 at 11:01 pm #

    I’m not sure whether I am supposed to feel bad or good about my inability to keep pace with your misogyny.

    I will dispute the hopelessness charge, since you are not in a position to assess my current wants.

    With regard to bitterness, I will preemptively claim victory in that regard. I have surpassed all, being the alpha and omega of bitterness (pun intended).

    With regard to ineffectuality, I would submit that you are not in possession of sufficient data points to credibly make that assertion.

    You’re very young, aren’t you? It’s obvious. At some later date, you will be able to excise this strange penchant for competition and comparison, which at this point is corrupting some otherwise interesting observations.

    I deal with young bucks in my profession all the time. It’s always the same, full of pi** and vinegar, fists clenching, mouth on a hair-trigger. They learn over time that while they are fast, they are not yet wise.

    So, patience, young skywalker.

    Boasting and achievement are nearly always inversely correlated.

  41. Risky Business December 8, 2010 at 1:05 am #

    I agree with Ilion. You need to stop thinking about game so much. What game represents is a method for immature men to seem mature. What “alpha” represents to me is really just maturity. Specifically, spiritual maturity. This is why guys can train themselves to behave a certain way to be more attractive. A man who is fully surrendered to God will be closer to the person God made him to be. That includes all the personality and confidence that is characteristic of the alpha male.

  42. Ilíon December 8, 2010 at 5:48 am #

    Haley: The guy I had a massive crush on during my freshman year of college [was dreamy to me], but my friends all made eww faces when I said I thought he looked great. Of course, he ended up marrying the annoying girl from our dorm. Oh, well.”

    Jack:A beautiful kernel of truth. And one that explains why so many women are alone…. This means that once a small minority of women find a guy “unattractive”, they can vote him out of the dating market altogether.

    Haley:Have fun swimming back from the Island of Conclusions. You’re completely off-base on this one.

    What men never seem to get it that women not only do not want our opinions or advice, but that they do not respect our opinions (about much of anything) … and, having received a bit of advice from one of us, they will frequently do just the opposite, apparently just to prove that they can.

    What women never seem to get is that if you do not respect us, then we cannot love you.

  43. jack December 8, 2010 at 6:29 am #

    “Beta” is a now well known reference point for discussion on this topic.

    If you would like to start a semantic side argument about the appropriateness of the term “beta”, please, go ahead.

    The use of that term was not critical to the point I was making and served as a convenient conversational device. Or so I thought. I guess there is a lawyer in every group.

  44. jack December 8, 2010 at 6:37 am #

    And by the way, risky business:

    “What “alpha” represents to me is really just maturity. Specifically, spiritual maturity. This is why guys can train themselves to behave a certain way to be more attractive. A man who is fully surrendered to God will be closer to the person God made him to be. That includes all the personality and confidence that is characteristic of the alpha male.”

    You may feel this way about “alpha-ness”, but you are confusing your own personal definition of a good moral man who is a leader with the actual meaning of alpha.

    You are entitled to your own private definition of any word you like, but that will make it difficult for you to converse meaningfully on the topic at hand.

    You also make a mistake in supposing that I “think about game” a lot. I don’t. I am aware of how it fits into the culture at present, but using of the term alpha and beta is independent of whether one is speaking about “game”.

    Lastly, while you have correctly defined what a Godly man SHOULD be, you are completely incorrect on that definition for what is attractive to many women.

    Yes, many women will agree with what you just said, and then go right out and date a man who is the exact opposite. I’m guessing that you are deeply sheltered in the church to form such a thought, which is the only way the reality of the real world could have escaped your notice.

    You are talking about how things should be. I am talking about the way things really are. Big difference.

  45. Joseph Dantes December 8, 2010 at 8:05 am #

    @Jack

    “Overall, the adverse effects of aging dominate the positive effects of experience.”
    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract-id=767125

    You’re not in a position to know what you want. You haven’t tasted it. THAT’S experience talking.

    To assert that being middle aged or older is any advantage in discussing Game is ludicrous. Once again… clueless.

  46. Joseph Dantes December 8, 2010 at 8:20 am #

    And here’s one for what you “want,” from the Don himself:

    “The fool loses his hopes, never his illusions.”

  47. jack December 8, 2010 at 9:36 am #

    Again, I am not discussing game. A am familiar with some of its terms, as I stated.

    You’ll eventually outgrow your hubris Joe. And hopefully also your inverse correlation.

    Are you this insufferable at parties?

  48. Badger Nation December 8, 2010 at 12:52 pm #

    “and had become annoyed by the fact that as she was walking to the venue from parking, a very good-looking young man was walking not far behind her yet did not attempt to strike up a conversation even though it was evident that they were going to the same place. ”

    Did anyone else find this women’s “annoyance” to be highly presumptuous? The idea that an attractive guy is obligated to chat her up on the way to an event, and she’s entitled to feel snubbed if he doesn’t? Not to mention that I thought recovering addicts weer advised to avoid dating within the same support group.

    Anyway, good on her to start talking to him. That’s a good, soft initiation that gives him enough to know it’s safe to play. Day-game is an exceedingly difficult environment to pursue, even for skilled socializers, so women should not expect a lot of quality approaches there and will need to open their own sets to present their availability. Opening a day-game “set” does not equal the woman pursuing, for those desperate to point out how women like to be pursued.

  49. David Collard December 8, 2010 at 8:38 pm #

    Hope, you sound like my wife was. She made it pretty obvious she was interested. Many men are not good at reading subtle messages. (I asked my wife last night if a woman at a meeting could have been flirting with me. She gave me two answers: definitely not and of course. Not very helpful. I sometimes think women just like misleading men.)

    Here is what my wife did to get my attention and get her to ask me out. Talked to me, teased me, told another girl to leave me alone, told me a slightly sexy story, picked an argument with me. All to get my attention and to get me thinking about romance. Maybe some of it was not intentional but it worked. The proximate reason I asked her out was because she told me that she had been swimming naked in the pool of a house she was minding on her own. Did she do this to titillate me? Don’t know, but it got my attention.

    A girl can do anything she likes to get a man’s attention, short of actually asking him out. Use your imagination. Ladies used to drop their hankies, Haley. I am sure you can think of something. Just don’t assume that quality men will want to run the risk of misreading faint signals and being humiliated by a failed approach.

  50. Risky Business December 9, 2010 at 1:53 am #

    Jack, I believe you confused my message with the fact that it was posted chronologically after yours. When I said “you” I was talking to Haley, as Ilion was. I wasn’t addressing you or your comment at all, so I was confused as to why you replied to me specifically.

    I am perfectly aware that I am talking about the way things SHOULD be. I felt I was using God’s definition, not Man’s. I thought that should take precedence. My words were advice to Haley to seek out what should be ideal, not what is attractive to most girls – the edgy alpha male you reference. I didn’t grow up in the church, so I do know what the reality is, so I don’t appreciate your unwarranted ad hominem comments jumping to conclusions about me.

  51. James December 9, 2010 at 3:34 am #

    There are a lot of men out there who would be just great for you. If you are not meeting them, then you are not going to the right places, or you have set up inappropriate defenses that either deter them, or prevent you from noticing them. It might be worthwhile seeing a therapist who would help you to notice if you are making assumptions that disqualify you from meeting someone suitable.

    Join a class in computing or car maintenance, so you can meet and hang out with men who wouldn’t otherwise cross your path, in a safe environment without lots of other women. Not all those men will be nerds.

    A lot of people on this blog write about “alpha” and “beta”, when what they really mean is “hot” and “non-hot”. Trust me, you do not want an alpha male: he will likely take a mistress and dump you both after 7 years. “Hot” is also a risky idea – if most women see your husband as “hot” they will put a lot of temptation in his way. Fortunately there are a lot of men out there who are not conventionally “hot” yet will nevertheless appeal to you.

    Don’t talk to girlfriends about dating – many women have so much competitiveness and jealousy that it gives them a boost if you are single and unhappy, and they will be eager to point out any man’s superficial flaws. If you really want to find out about a man’s character, ask another man.

    Don’t do internet dating – it’s like meeting men in a bar, except everyone is wearing a mask. It’s a pity, because it’s such an easy way for women to meet men, but 90% of the men on dating sites are players or worse.

    So many people on this blog rate people from 1 to 10 as if attraction were one-dimensional and we could all agree on a person’s score. This is not only nonsense but is also likely to lead to unhealthy patterns of thought (… I couldn’t get him interested and he’s a 5 … OMG I must be only a 4 … that means I can only hope to get a 4 … but I only like 7 and above … woe is me!!!).

    To compound the unhealthiness, many people here use the terminology and ideas of “The Game”. Duh! The Game teaches a man how to be a pick-up artist. It does not help a woman to identify husband material.

    In short, much of what people write here is not only unhelpful but actually reinforces your sense of frustration and helplessness.

    I suggest giving up the blog and getting out of your comfort zone. Organise a singles-only barn dance for Valentine’s Day, with equal numbers of tickets for men and women. Join clubs; if you can’t find any that you want to join, start your own. Become the master of your destiny.

  52. jack December 9, 2010 at 6:52 am #

    RiskyBusiness;

    My bad, thought you were responding to THIS comment:

    Ilion:
    Actually, he isn’t completely off-base; the only off-base part is that silly talk about “betas.”

    One additional thought on why men do not approach:

    We have been taught/shamed for years that we should not be forward/”creepy” with girls, and that “unwanted attention” (nice little H.R. term) is rude.

    Therefore, we won’t approach unless the girl turns on the sign saying she is open for business.

    This DOES suck for more shy/demure women, but they have the feminists to blame for this, not men. We would not mind approaching but have been thoroughly instructed not to.

  53. Julie December 9, 2010 at 7:00 am #

    I remember being frustrated by men going for sweet, perky girls. I was more introspective, deep, artsy–how I longed for a man to be attracted to me for those reasons. It was my hope to find a man I could connect deeply with, emotionally and spiritually. I didn’t really make an effort to act more sweet and feminine, because I thought men SHOULDN’T be attracted to airhead types. Gradually, I began to incorporate more of those attributes but still be myself. Still, in the end, I think it’s best to be yourself and find someone who truly appreciates for who you are, without you having to put on an act. So women can intentionally be more feminine and supportive, and men can emphasize their strength and leadership qualities. But it has to be in the context of ultimately being yourself overall, if you want to find a compatible partner.

  54. Aunt Haley December 9, 2010 at 7:53 am #

    Julie–
    Still, in the end, I think it’s best to be yourself and find someone who truly appreciates for who you are, without you having to put on an act.

    Those be bold words in these parts. Get ready for the pitchforks!

  55. Risky Business December 9, 2010 at 8:02 am #

    No worries Jack. Arguing over the internet is like winning the special olympics anyways, right?

  56. Wayfinder December 9, 2010 at 8:13 am #

    We have been taught/shamed for years that we should not be forward/”creepy” with girls, and that “unwanted attention” (nice little H.R. term) is rude.

    Combine this with girls putting walls around themselves and you get lonely single women. The “nice guys” may not approach, but neither do a lot of “good guys”. It seems like too many women have narrowed their options down to “bad boys” and the subset of aggressive “good guys”, who mostly marry off early.

    A lot of people on this blog write about “alpha” and “beta”, when what they really mean is “hot” and “non-hot”.
    Actually, I think it’s counter-productive for a girl to be worried about attracting the attention of an “alpha”. If she’s ignoring less-noticeable guys that’s one thing, but if she (like Haley here) is worrying that she isn’t good enough for every guy who shows interest in her she’s doing it wrong.

    But it has to be in the context of ultimately being yourself overall, if you want to find a compatible partner.

    True. I certainly wouldn’t appreciate it if it turned out that the woman I thought I knew was just putting on an act to get me to like her. I believe that there are personalities that are more attractive, but (for the right kind of guy) it’s more a matter of having good, feminine character than being bubbly. Loyalty, respect, and responsibility count for a lot.

    Just don’t use introspection as an excuse for icing yourself off from potential suitors. If feminine is defined as “airhead” something is drastically wrong.

  57. Aunt Haley December 12, 2010 at 5:32 pm #

    Wayfinder–
    If she’s ignoring less-noticeable guys that’s one thing, but if she (like Haley here) is worrying that she isn’t good enough for every guy who shows interest in her she’s doing it wrong.

    I never said I was “worried” that I wasn’t good enough for men who showed interest in me.

    If feminine is defined as “airhead” something is drastically wrong.

    Girls learn from very early on, usually junior high or earlier, that girls who are ditzes, giggly, and fawn over boys get the most attention from boys. Girls who bake cookies and volunteer for clean-ups generally don’t. That doesn’t really ever change.

  58. modernguy December 22, 2010 at 3:38 pm #

    Part of the problem is the women don’t understand that men generally hate small talk and talking about trivialities, which is a woman’s conversational stock and trade. You could say that 90% of ‘game’ is just forcing men to learn to take to women in an entertaining way. There is no attraction if there is no fun, and most of the time we men are in a serious or contemplative mood which is not going to facilitate that. So when your friend is walking to church with an attractive guy who won’t break the ice, there’s no puzzle there, he probably just wants to get through whatever hoops he’s going to be made to jump through today and really doesn’t care what you think about the traffic or nice weather or blooming flowers or any of that crap. Of course since women are not suddenly going to develop depth to their being we are the ones that have to learn to enjoy life at the surface.

  59. nothingbutthetruth December 24, 2010 at 10:18 am #

    Although I too think it is a bad idea to post pictures of yours, I think it would be useful to post pictures of an actress that it is roughly as much attractive as you. Then post some picture of an actor that is roughly as much attractive as the guys you are attracted to. Give some general data about where the guys are located in the socioeconomic status and how much social-savvy they are.

    Then I think you would get some good and realistic advice for your situation. Otherwise, any advice is a shoot in the dark.

  60. Marquis July 13, 2011 at 5:42 pm #

    I think the central topic correlates with the ‘Reasons women don’t approach men’ thread on this blog. I also think that Haley’s feelings are very natural, and are exactly what she should be feeling.

    (People should keep in mind that these situations are not egalitarian, and that men would not see the same benefits, or the same lack of negative consequence if they were to act in a similar fashion)

    Women SHOULD feel that if ‘I like him he can do better’, and they should have 1000 reasons running through their mind as to why they shouldn’t approach a guy they find attractive. This is what makes women relish relationships with men they are attracted to so much (while at the same time remaining unmoved by the prospect of being with men they are not so interested in). It’s basically an on/off switch in women: guys whom they are interested in and guys whom they are not elicit an almost night and day difference of reaction. This highlights the notion that women (at least socially) prefer monogamy, as well as giving an impression of just how much women value men (or the idea of men) in their social lives romantically. Women are very serious about relationships, the idea of relationships, and the men whom they can forsee as qualifiying for that position in their lives. This is some serious shit! In these issues, women’s angst and nerves seem to correlate with their perception of value and opportunity they see in these men- these men whom they find attractive/interesting romantically.

  61. Jennifer August 19, 2011 at 8:05 pm #

    “That girls who are ditzes, giggly, and fawn over boys get the most attention from boys. Girls who bake cookies and volunteer for clean-ups generally don’t”

    Ah, that depends on the guys. Or the term of the relationship: if the giggly girl’s really a ditzy carousel rider, he’s more likely to marry the hardworking good-in-the-kitchen girl.

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