Holding bags and leading the way.

4 Jan

To quote drunken Ted Mosby from one of my favorite episodes of How I Met Your Mother, I’M BACK, BABY DOLLS!  I hope everyone had a good Christmas and New Year’s and got at least one gift that truly pleased them.  (For those following my new TV saga, I pulled the trigger last night and ordered a 46″ Samsung 1080p/120Hz LED.)

While I was home, I got to see the sad state of Midwestern male fashion, which seems to consist of fat guys wearing Bears sweatshirts and baggy stonewashed jeans.  Hipsters don’t really exist in the Midwest, probably because very few adult men in the Midwest are actually thin enough to fit into any hipster clothes.  (Exceptions include youth pastor types trying to stay ~relevant~ to the kids**, and college grads who live in Chicago.)  When I mentioned the sartorial downfalls of men in the area, my mom immediately turned on me and said that women have a duty to look good, too.  Thanks, Mom!  I know I keep beating the fashion drum here, but seriously, men, dressing well, especially in an area where all the men look dumpy, will make you stand out to women.  You will seem better-looking, more interesting, and more intelligent, and women will be more interested in talking to you.  (**But if you look like a member of MercyMe or a guy from Rascal Flatts, then you have probably failed in that endeavor.)

Also while I was home, I gleaned more manly insight from my dad, who complained about men who hold their wives’ bags while shopping and men who let their wives lead the way in the movie theater.  Recalling that this is a topic that has come up more than once in the manosphere, I formulated some guidelines and decided that there is only one scenario where it is appropriate for a man to hold his lady’s shopping bags:  where he takes the bag from her in a display of manly authority.  By this I mean that he does it because he wants to as a show of courtesy and caring, not because she expects him to be her bag carrier.  This is akin to the ’60s stereotype of carrying a girl’s books to class.  If a woman just hands you her bags so she can be free to go buy more stuff, then she thinks of you as her personal manservant, not a man she respects and admires, though she may tell you otherwise.  As for men letting their wives lead the way in the movie theater (or anywhere else), the same principle applies.  If the man, out of courtesy and generosity, lets his wife or girlfriend pick their seats, that’s fine.  But if she naturally charges ahead and decides where the two of you are sitting because she’s the decider and you’re the follower, then there’s a problem.

Yesterday my eHarmony-using friend picked me up from the shuttle center and told me about two dates she’d been on with two different matches.  One acted like he was God’s gift and couldn’t be bothered to make conversation or show any signs of courtesy that a man would normally show on a date.  This is probably why he is still single at age 40.  The other was very, very nice and gentlemanly, but he is suffering from extreme oneitis for his ex-girlfriend, who left him after seven years for a thug who beats her.  (Insert Roissy post about nice guys and thugs here.)  Lessons learned:  (1) There is a difference between being alpha and being rude.  DON’T BE RUDE.  No one likes to feel like their time is being wasted, and no one likes to feel like they are dirt on the bottom of someone’s shoe.  (2)  Don’t be a nice guy to show her you love her.  Be a man.

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71 Responses to “Holding bags and leading the way.”

  1. modernguy January 4, 2011 at 7:58 am #

    The only question is, after jumping through all these hoops to be the man women want us to be, why should any man settle for one woman?

  2. Lover of Wisdom January 4, 2011 at 10:06 am #

    I now live in the Midwest and find that all college-aged girls look exactly alike with their dark wash jeans, cute top, blond hair, and Ugg boots—very original.

  3. Simon Grey January 4, 2011 at 11:16 am #

    I’ve noticed that rudeness is one of the mistakes that betas trying to act alpha make. There are, of course, several reasons for this problem, but the main cause seems to be mistaking correlation for causation.

    Also, I don’t understand why midwestern men have problems dressing nicely. Decent dress shirts and sweaters can be had on the cheap (especially at JC Penney’s and Kohls), usually cheaper than NFL-branded clothes. I just don’t get it.

  4. jack January 4, 2011 at 7:33 pm #

    “The only question is, after jumping through all these hoops to be the man women want us to be, why should any man settle for one woman?”

    As long as she is the woman I want her to be.

    High expectations work both ways, sometimes I think that many women think that purely being female is the primary qualification.

  5. Badger Nation January 4, 2011 at 11:32 pm #

    As long as we’re talking about Midwestern fashion we have to acknowledge that Madison, WI (home of the Badgers) is the original home of the Muffintop.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=muffintop

  6. Badger Nation January 4, 2011 at 11:55 pm #

    I have a simple rule. I don’t hold feminine stuff – shoes, clothes, bags, purses. Carry it yourself.

    I don’t buy tampons either.

  7. Aunt Haley January 5, 2011 at 6:39 am #

    Lover of Wisdom–
    I now live in the Midwest and find that all college-aged girls look exactly alike with their dark wash jeans, cute top, blond hair, and Ugg boots—very original.

    White middle-class college girls are the picture of herd mentality, and especially so in the Midwest. (But, in their defense, the mainstream stores that they shop at probably only sell identical fashions, so they’re not likely to see much that breaks the mold anyway.)

    Simon Grey–
    Also, I don’t understand why midwestern men have problems dressing nicely. Decent dress shirts and sweaters can be had on the cheap (especially at JC Penney’s and Kohls), usually cheaper than NFL-branded clothes. I just don’t get it.

    It seems that after college (if they even go), Midwestern men just let themselves go. They get jobs where dressing well isn’t necessary, and they hang out drinking and watching football with their buddies at night. The twain don’t inspire either a trim figure or much attention to appearance.

    P.S. I would encourage Midwestern men to shop at Macy’s for nicer duds. For a Midwestern guy really looking to upgrade, a trip to a big city like Chicago may be necessary. The clothing selection in bigger cities will be larger and carry more high-end brands.

    Badger–
    The muffintop is a nationwide scourge, alas, but, uh, congratulations on being from a city of such distinction?

  8. ASDF January 5, 2011 at 7:48 am #

    Hey Haley,
    I thought I would give you my 2 month Eharmony update, which ties a little into what you say here. Everybody seems to wear jeans and a t-shirt nowadays, so I have mostly given up on judging girls by their clothes, and instead go solely with their face/physique, as far as appearances go. There are quite a few fat women on that site. Many more than my original impression led me to believe.

    You can tell the odd upper middle class girl, because she will have a picture of herself at some function wearing a sharp-looking dress. It’s quite a treat to see. Unfortunately (and it is unfortunate, because they are most of the better looking and smarter ones on the site), they are all living the Sex and the City dream.

    There isn’t as much religiosity on eharmony as I had expected, either. There are a few holy rollers, but the vast majority of women are as secular and modern as you would find on the street.

    All in all, I don’t think I will be renewing when my cheap 3 month trial expires.

  9. Aunt Haley January 5, 2011 at 8:19 am #

    ASDF–
    Where have you been hiding? I had assumed that you got so busy dating eHarmony babes that you had no more time for commenting.

    There are quite a few fat women on that site. Many more than my original impression led me to believe.

    There are quite a few fat women everywhere, but I think that fat women honestly believe that their fatness isn’t a handicap insomuch that they have a sterling personality. So they take to the internet to find the personality-seekers, with hopes of better results.

    There isn’t as much religiosity on eharmony as I had expected, either. There are a few holy rollers, but the vast majority of women are as secular and modern as you would find on the street.

    Are you not tailoring your match results for Christian church-goers? eHarmony itself became more secular when Neil Clark Warren broke away from Focus on the Family, so I wouldn’t expect it to be predominantly Christians there.

  10. ASDF January 5, 2011 at 6:51 pm #

    I got a big boy job, so I’ve been in the office non-stop. Between the suit and the job, it’s been a big SMV boost, though my internet surfing time has sadly been curtailed. I still check in here regularly though, but mostly just to read.

    I have been on two Eharmony dates. One was much more awkward in person than in e-mail. The other is a real sweetheart with whom I’ve gone out a few times, but who doesn’t wow me on the other metrics, so we will see how it plays out.

    My match selection is tailored to meet Christians who drink “a few times per year” and who want children. I get about 6 matches per day, but the quality isn’t good, and I can’t figure out the matching logic, as they all have fairly different personalities. They should just unlock all the matches and let you search through them.

  11. Aunt Haley January 5, 2011 at 8:14 pm #

    ASDF–
    Congrats on your big boy job! I’m sure it feels good to be earning a big boy paycheck. :)

    Re: the two women you’ve dated from eHarmony – well, at least you met the first one early enough in the process that you could determine there was no chemistry. How was it awkward? As for the second girl, if she doesn’t interest you, it’s not a good sign. Niceness isn’t enough in the long run. If you like her but you’re balking because she doesn’t fill your subconscious ideal that you’ve had in mind since you were twelve, maybe that’s worth reconsidering.

    Most people I know who have met someone on eHarmony had to stick with it for months and months; they did not find their future spouses right away.

  12. ASDF January 5, 2011 at 9:29 pm #

    Well, with the first girl, we had chemistry via e-mail, but when we met up, she wasn’t as cute as her pictures, and didn’t have much to say. I also might have gotten tipsy and chatted with the waitresses too much at the bar we were at, but that is neither here not there.

    The second girl is really nice, and very feminine and shy. I joke with her that she reminds me of Pam, from The Office. She’s a little cuter, but same sort of station in life. Very middle class (She has good manners, but not a lot in the way of culture). Not my ideal by any means, but her femininity and gentle demeanor are so refreshing, so here I am.

  13. knepper January 6, 2011 at 4:19 pm #

    ASDF,
    I have been signed up for Match.com for 3-4 days now. Initially I was very encouraged, but soon became discouraged to a similar degree. They seemed to have alot more women, and more local, than E-Flesh-Trade, I mean E-Harmony. But so far, the results have been disappointing. I’ve got very few responses, and I’m not a bad looking guy. What amazes me is how many women who are not at all attractive seem to think that men should be beating down the cyber doors just to be in their presence. Some are so fat and disgusting, it is literally pathetic. I’m just saying. These fat women also seem to believe that through the magic of the internet, they are somehow going to interest men, something I’m sure they never could do in the flesh. Sorry, the camera doesn’t lie. It has been an experience, but probably will turn out to be a waste of money.

  14. ASDF January 6, 2011 at 7:21 pm #

    Knepper:

    I hear ya. Good looking girls don’t write back. I don’t know what the other guys on eharmony are like, but I’m pretty sure that I’m in the top tier, so it’s puzzling. I do list a few things about looking for a traditional woman, so that might scare them off.

    The majority of e-mails I receive come from unattractive women, many of whom do not compensate by being interesting or sweet. What they are hoping to accomplish by e-mailing me (usually when they also live 3000 miles away) is the second biggest mystery of eharmony.

  15. Aunt Haley January 6, 2011 at 8:51 pm #

    knepper–
    Looks are especially important in online dating, but if your profile isn’t well-written or doesn’t make you seem interesting, that can negate a lot of your physical appeal.

    Sorry, the camera doesn’t lie.

    But it does add ten pounds! (Cue Chandler on Friends when he sees a picture of Fat Monica: “How many cameras were ON you?!”) And some people just aren’t photogenic in a still.

    ASDF–
    I do list a few things about looking for a traditional woman, so that might scare them off.

    It’s not always WHAT you say, but how you say it.

    If you write, “I want a traditional woman. She has to cook for me, clean the house, wash my clothes, be feminine, and be a mother to our children,” women might interpret that as domineering, insensitive, and stuck in the ’50s. A better way to say the same thing is, “I’m looking for a great girl to go through life with, someone who doesn’t mind her man bringing home the bacon in exchange for changing some poopy diapers.” Or something to that effect. Women don’t like it when men make blunt, unhumorous, inflexible demands when still in the negotiation rounds. (Not saying that either you or knepper is writing your profile like this, but more as a general observation.)

  16. ASDF January 7, 2011 at 7:44 am #

    But I AM inflexible and stuck in the 50’s! ;-)

    I went and rechecked how I wrote it. It seems innocent enough to me. Not hilarious, but also not demanding, and it’s just one line out of many. So attractive girls either really bristle at the thought that somebody is looking for a traditional wife (“domestically inclined and church-going” was the phrase I used), or it’s something else.

    In real life though, in many girls, I notice a change in attitude around 27 years of age. After a few years out of university and trying to make a living, many are quite happy at the hypothetical thought of settling down and being a housewife and letting their husband deal with the working world. 21-24 year olds, however, won’t even entertain the thought.

  17. Aunt Haley January 7, 2011 at 8:00 am #

    ASDF–
    “Domestically-inclined and church-going” sounds stiff and somewhat formal, at least out of context. The goal in a successful profile is to make the woman already feel like she’s spent time with you and liked it. If you want a critique for tone, you can email me the text.

  18. Badger Nation January 9, 2011 at 6:09 am #

    ASDF,

    I would not put your list of wants for a woman in the profile itself. DHV yourself in the profile, be interesting, and then qualify her on the date itself when you can soften the “demanding” tone of the list of wants in person.

  19. Jill January 9, 2011 at 2:37 pm #

    Ha I liked that part about Midwestern fashion. Unfortunately, I don’t think that women are much better past 25. Every time I go home (I grew up in the Chicago suburbs), I am confused by what everyone is wearing.

  20. Hermes January 9, 2011 at 10:25 pm #

    In real life though, in many girls, I notice a change in attitude around 27 years of age. After a few years out of university and trying to make a living, many are quite happy at the hypothetical thought of settling down and being a housewife and letting their husband deal with the working world. 21-24 year olds, however, won’t even entertain the thought.

    Interesting. This is pretty much exactly what my old pastor told me, when I was talking to him about moving away to go to medical school, back in 2007, before I knew anything of game or the Roissysphere. He basically said, forget the ones just out of college; they’re still thinking they’re going to find fulfillment in their careers, travel, and other adventures; look for one in her late twenties because that’s when they realize the career isn’t all it was cracked up to be and they’d actually be happier letting a decent guy worry about earning the money. He’s been partly right, in that the girls I’ve met in their early twenties are indeed holding out in the hope that they’re going to move to New York City and Jude Law is going to step out of a cab one day and bump into them and sweep them off their feet, but, while girls in their late twenties do seem to be more realistic, one just doesn’t meet any who are both good-looking and still single.

    BTW, I have to give that pastor credit. He actually uttered the words “I hate feminism.”

  21. ASDF January 11, 2011 at 7:29 am #

    Yeah, Hermes. I’d never really thought about it until I read it in Roissy or somewhere, but then I started asking girls, or just observing it myself.

    I suppose the trick is to find a girl who’s been chewed up and spat out by the working world, without being similarly experienced in the dating world, which is hard, because the two usually go hand-in-hand.

  22. ASDF January 11, 2011 at 7:34 am #

    It’s also funny how many girls worship their lame career as well. Unless they’re in something culty like a fireman or police job, guys mostly just see their work as a way to make money. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard a girl gush about some fluff internet marketing or soft medical job as if it were the ultimate culmination of her existence.

  23. The Man Who Was . . . January 11, 2011 at 3:26 pm #

    while girls in their late twenties do seem to be more realistic, one just doesn’t meet any who are both good-looking and still single.

    Some girls are ready at 21, some still haven’t given up on the dream at 34. The trick seems to be catching the right girl at the right moment. Difficult to do if you have some standards for looks and difference between success and failure can be miniscule. You are kind of beholden to their schedule. Which is why your motto must be, “You must be relentless.” Of course, you can’t be seen to be breaking a sweat.

    One of the most difficult things you will have to do in church dating is walk away from some awesome girls who are perfect for you but who just aren’t at the right place when you meet them. Next.

  24. CAB January 11, 2011 at 3:52 pm #

    …while girls in their late twenties do seem to be more realistic, one just doesn’t meet any who are both good-looking and still single.

    The usual line about maturity in boys vs. girls is that girls mature faster than boys. But that’s clearly true in only two respects: they’re better at sitting quietly and learning in the modern classroom setting, and they hit puberty earlier. Real emotional maturity and common sense? Far too many women haven’t attained any of that at age 30, let alone age 20 or 22.

    I suppose the trick is to find a girl who’s been chewed up and spat out by the working world, without being similarly experienced in the dating world, which is hard, because the two usually go hand-in-hand.

    I think one of the chief frustrations in the manosphere, or at least the younger and/or pro-marriage segments of it, is that — to put it crudely — we want to marry at 24 to the bubbly, innocent, hot, 22-year-old virgin, not at 30 to the gruff, jaded, already-aging, 28-year-old non-virgin (let alone slut). Why should reasonably handsome and decent men have to sit around for years, not join in the “fun,” and take what’s left? The supply of good (let alone good and attractive) women in their early twenties who are ready to marry is far, far smaller than the demand, and it doesn’t help individuals or society to have lots of single, sexually frustrated, early-20-something men.

    We know that our parents’ generation married significantly earlier, and we wonder w

    It’s also funny how many girls worship their lame career as well. … I can’t count how many times I’ve heard a girl gush about some fluff internet marketing or soft medical job as if it were the ultimate culmination of her existence.

    Yep. It boggles my mind, too. But it happens when they’ve been told for decades that their careers are how they’re supposed to feel fulfilled. Then the biological clock ticks in, and it goes out the window in favor of marriage — or it’s all they have left.

  25. CAB January 11, 2011 at 3:59 pm #

    I do wish this comment system had a preview function.

    To elaborate on maturity, before the obvious objection about male “adultescence” is raised: It used to be that young women were more mature in many ways than young men, because they were brought up more strictly. But to have any hope of marrying a young woman (and, again to be frank, get laid), a young man had to man up and take on adult responsibilities. Now, there’s a lot less incentive to do so — and in fact, there’s disincentive, because to do so often means being too “boring.”

    We know that our parents’ generation married significantly earlier, and we wonder why we have to wait to marry and suffer from the awful system they set up.

  26. Aunt Haley January 11, 2011 at 9:31 pm #

    Hermes–
    I’ve known enough girls in their early to mid-20s who are desperate to get married. Those are the girls who think that every man who so much as looks at them could be The One. Unfortunately for men who are determined to marry very good-looking girls, these girls tend not to be in the 9-10 range.

    ASDF–
    I can’t count how many times I’ve heard a girl gush about some fluff internet marketing or soft medical job as if it were the ultimate culmination of her existence.

    Well, just because you don’t think it’s great doesn’t mean that the girl doesn’t genuinely like her job. And if you are conveying that judgment in your interactions with her, that’s a huge turnoff.

    CAB–
    But to have any hope of marrying a young woman (and, again to be frank, get laid), a young man had to man up and take on adult responsibilities. Now, there’s a lot less incentive to do so — and in fact, there’s disincentive, because to do so often means being too “boring.”

    A job doesn’t make a man boring. A man makes himself boring. The inherent sexiness of a job doesn’t matter so much as the man’s passion and ambition. I’ve discussed this before. A man’s passion can make a lot of mundane things seem interesting to a woman. But if you’re just going to have a ho-hum attitude about a job that depresses you, then a woman will pick up on that and find it unattractive.

  27. Brendan January 12, 2011 at 10:08 am #

    Again, I have to ask why the hurdle gets set so high.

    The reality is that most people have humdrum jobs. It’s a job, after all. The percentage of people who have jobs that they are in love with and feel passionately about is very small compared to the overall workforce. I have a high-paying professional job, but I do not have any passion for it — never have and never will. That’s not the role that the job plays in my life — it’s my job.

    It makes sense to seek out someone who has engagement and strong interests they have developed some mastery in, but expecting this to be their job is, imo, setting the bar too high, because you’ll exclude most people.

    Personally, I’m very, very skeptical of others who claim to love their jobs with a passion. These people scare me, really.

  28. ASDF January 12, 2011 at 6:41 pm #

    Haley:

    Well, just because you don’t think it’s great doesn’t mean that the girl doesn’t genuinely like her job. And if you are conveying that judgment in your interactions with her, that’s a huge turnoff.

    They do genuinely like their jobs. That’s the problem.

    It is said in the context of: “Children? Get real! I want to DO something with my life. I’m going to get a job in AN OFFICE!”

    They dismiss marriage and children as getting in the way of their true calling, which is usually a job of little consequence.

  29. Aunt Haley January 12, 2011 at 8:11 pm #

    ASDF–
    Sometimes I wonder if you are a 55-year-old man.

    P.S. ASDF and Hermes, you guys need to hang out at Boundless more. That place is TEEMING with women desperate to marry and who battle despair daily because they’re about to turn 24 and aren’t married and pregnant.

  30. ASDF January 12, 2011 at 9:24 pm #

    You’d be surprised how many people say that. ;)

    What’s the deal with Boundless. Is there a personals section or something?

  31. Aunt Haley January 12, 2011 at 9:29 pm #

    ASDF–
    Boundless doesn’t have personals (although I believe they are affiliated with a matchmaking site called “Marry Well” that was founded by some former Boundless writers), but if you read the comments on any singleness/dating/gender relations post, inevitably the “my soul longs to be married WHY AM I NOT MARRIED YET I TOTALLY THOUGHT I WOULD BE BY NOW” people post their sob stories. Er, relate their struggles of singleness, I mean.

  32. ASDF January 13, 2011 at 7:39 am #

    Hmm, maybe I will make a sexy personal ad like this and spam their comments sections with it.

  33. Hermes January 13, 2011 at 8:15 am #

    Ha, Roissy once linked that video as a supreme example of hopeless oneitis and betatude. The girl isn’t even that good-looking; a 7 at best. Just goes to show that being a well-muscled hunk is no guarantee of alphatude.

  34. Hermes January 16, 2011 at 4:20 pm #

    CAB:

    I think one of the chief frustrations in the manosphere, or at least the younger and/or pro-marriage segments of it, is that — to put it crudely — we want to marry at 24 to the bubbly, innocent, hot, 22-year-old virgin, not at 30 to the gruff, jaded, already-aging, 28-year-old non-virgin (let alone slut). Why should reasonably handsome and decent men have to sit around for years, not join in the “fun,” and take what’s left?

    Well, a-freaking-men to that. The thing is, I think this sentiment has been fairly well expressed in the manosphere by now, but in those discussions it’s typically been assumed that the girls whom Nice Guys have to settle for are 1) 35+ years old and 2) no longer virgins. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the sentiment even applies in the church with girls who basically are good Christian girls, have remained virgins, and who are only in their late twenties. Like it or not, there IS a noticable difference in physical appearance between 22 and 28. Even if a girl is “only” 28, has consistently striven to stick to Biblical principles regarding sex, and is still relatively sweet and down-to-earth, I have a hard time being interested because I know that things have already started to sag and wrinkle and I feel that when she was 22 she was probably too hot to be interested in a guy like me. Even at that relatively young age, the saying “if the kitten didn’t want me, I don’t want the cat” still applies. Don’t get me wrong; I’ve always known that in marriage you have to love each other even when you’re old and gray, that the physical is only one aspect of love and that your love deepens as you build a lifetime of experiences and a family together, it’s just that I used to think that part of what made that tradeoff worthwhile is that you get a few years in while she’s still, as GBFM would say, “younger, hotter, tighter.” It would be a major, MAJOR act of stettling, in my mind, to give up on the possibility of ever getting to experience being with a girl in her early twenties.

    We know that our parents’ generation married significantly earlier, and we wonder why we have to wait to marry and suffer from the awful system they set up.

    One of the most mind-boggling questions to me is: how did the older generation of conservative Christian parents, those who believed in traditional gender roles, believed women should be housewives devoted to domestic tranquility, who read books by James Dobson on childrearing, sent their kids to Christian schools or homeschool them, raise this generation of young women who, even though they are professing born-again Christians, dream of moving to New York City and becoming fashion designers? Why are these daughters not living the traditional way of life their parents supposedly believed in? Did the parents not really believe in it after all, do they just not care, did they try their hardest but were unable to prevent their daughters from being infected with wanderlust and ambition by the surrounding culture, do they inwardly object but feel powerless to do anything about it? I just don’t understand.

    Haley:
    I’ve known enough girls in their early to mid-20s who are desperate to get married. Those are the girls who think that every man who so much as looks at them could be The One. Unfortunately for men who are determined to marry very good-looking girls, these girls tend not to be in the 9-10 range.

    I know what you mean, but I would extend that range down to 7. In my experience, desperate girls in their early twenties are 6’s and below. If I could get a cute, early-20’s 7 to settle for me, I’d be happy.

    The inherent sexiness of a job doesn’t matter so much as the man’s passion and ambition. I’ve discussed this before. A man’s passion can make a lot of mundane things seem interesting to a woman. But if you’re just going to have a ho-hum attitude about a job that depresses you, then a woman will pick up on that and find it unattractive.

    Read this carefully, guys who think you’re going to get a prestigious job and impress women with it. I’ve learned exactly what you’ve described here in med school. I used to notice doctors who had hot wives, and when I went to med school, I thought that would be me. After a while, I noticed that the docs with hot wives were the ones who were into it, who could regale people with stories from their time in the hospital or work interesting tidbits of medical knowledge into conversation. If you can’t do that, because you don’t study very hard, because you were counting a hot girl liking you first just becuase you could factually state “I’m going to be a doctor” and then relying on her presence in your life as motivation to study and do well and get into it, women are not going to be attracted to you.

    P.S. ASDF and Hermes, you guys need to hang out at Boundless more. That place is TEEMING with women desperate to marry and who battle despair daily because they’re about to turn 24 and aren’t married and pregnant.

    See above. If there’s one thing I’ve been forced to accept over the past 4 years, it’s this: physically attractive girls are NEVER desperate.

  35. Julie January 16, 2011 at 7:20 pm #

    You can be desperate but still not want to settle…until the biological clock starts to tick loudly…it’s not ticking loudly for early 20s women.

  36. Goblue January 16, 2011 at 8:54 pm #

    @Aunt Haley

    “I’ve known enough girls in their early to mid-20s who are desperate to get married. Those are the girls who think that every man who so much as looks at them could be The One.”

    Pray tell where can these girls be found? Even the 5-6’s at church think they deserve a man who looks like Brad Pitt and has the bank account of Bill Gates.

  37. The Man Who Was . . . January 16, 2011 at 9:29 pm #

    Did the parents not really believe in it after all, do they just not care, did they try their hardest but were unable to prevent their daughters from being infected with wanderlust and ambition by the surrounding culture, do they inwardly object but feel powerless to do anything about it? I just don’t understand.

    A little of all of the above.

    The unbelievable prosperity of the post WWII West caught everybody by surprise, including devout Christians. Settled, traditional ways of life, by their very unconscious nature, are easily upset by technological change. So, most parents probably didn’t know how to resist, even if they wanted to.

    Plus, people wanted to enjoy the fruits of prosperity and share them with their kids. So, even Christian kids get pretty much everything they want growing up. The result is that everyone in our society feels pretty entitled.

  38. The Man Who Was . . . January 16, 2011 at 9:42 pm #

    Hermes:

    Even laying aside the physical deterioration thing, it is kind of appalling that Christian guys have to wait around until girls start to get realistic about their prospects in their late 20s/early 30s. No, I don’t mind having 20 years of blue balls at all.

    Our slogan might as well be “Traditional Christianity: we promise you’ll get laid by the time you’re forty.”

  39. Julie January 17, 2011 at 5:55 am #

    Hermes, what number would you give yourself? If you are a 6 or below, maybe it would be more realistic (and satisfying) to go for the young 6?

  40. Hermes January 17, 2011 at 4:37 pm #

    The Man Who Was…:

    The unbelievable prosperity of the post WWII West caught everybody by surprise, including devout Christians. Settled, traditional ways of life, by their very unconscious nature, are easily upset by technological change. So, most parents probably didn’t know how to resist, even if they wanted to.

    Plus, people wanted to enjoy the fruits of prosperity and share them with their kids. So, even Christian kids get pretty much everything they want growing up.

    This is kind of what I’ve always suspected happened with the upbringing of the baby boomers by their parents, the so-called greatest generation. The GGs returned home from WWII, had a bunch of kids, and raised them in an era of unprecedented prosperity and technological change the ramifications of which they were unprepared to deal with and could not fully foresee. But I’m talking about the subsequent generation. What perplexes me is how conservative Christian members of the baby boom generation, those who were raised in conservative Christian families and never rebelled, never tuned in, turned on, dropped out like their peers–those who saw firsthand the social revolution that was underway and rejected it, making a conscious effort to raise their kids according to traditional values, not only failed to do so but don’t seem to care. People who are now in their fifties, whose daughters are now in their twenties, daughters whom they did their darndest to raise as conservative Christians, on whom it by and large worked, in that they now profess faith in Christ and have remained virgins, but they don’t seem to see a contradiction between that and moving to NYC to become fashion designers.

    I’m just musing aloud here, but I wonder if we’re stumbling into another example of social conservatives’ incorrect assumptions about the innate nature of women. Maybe they just assumed that all women naturally want to become housewives, so they didn’t think to explicitly teach their daughters to do so.

    Even laying aside the physical deterioration thing, it is kind of appalling that Christian guys have to wait around until girls start to get realistic about their prospects in their late 20s/early 30s. No, I don’t mind having 20 years of blue balls at all.

    Our slogan might as well be “Traditional Christianity: we promise you’ll get laid by the time you’re forty.”

    Heh. Good point. I haven’t thought about that in a long time, partly because I’m such a different person now than I was at 25, and I don’t regret the path I’ve taken, but at 25 I really didn’t know what to do with myself and wonder if I’d have done better in life in general with a cute wife keeping the home fires burning. What’s particularly frustrating is the way some Christian pundits (I’m looking at you, Boundless) blame the entire delay of marriage on men. Back then I was virtually screaming at my computer screen: “Come on, Ted Slater! I’m a healthy 25 year old male; do you really think I DON’T wish I were having sex right now instead of playing computer games?”

    Julie:

    You can be desperate but still not want to settle…until the biological clock starts to tick loudly…it’s not ticking loudly for early 20s women.

    That’s a distinction without a difference. That’s like saying “you can be desperate, but desperate only for George Clooney.” If you don’t want to settle, by definition, you’re not desperate.

    Hermes, what number would you give yourself? If you are a 6 or below, maybe it would be more realistic (and satisfying) to go for the young 6?

    Given women’s notorious ineptitude at rating their own attractiveness despite its deriving from the relatively objective criterion of looks, and given that attractiveness for men is based mainly on the much more subjective criteria of status and personality traits, I’m not even going to attempt to assign myself a number.

    But if our hostess buckles and posts the famous face-blacked-out body shots of herself, I’ll reconsider.

  41. Aunt Haley January 17, 2011 at 6:06 pm #

    So let me get this straight, Hermes:

    You blame WOMEN for your lack of success in life. As in, had only a very physically attractive 20-23-year-old Christian virgin with no personal aspirations in life than to prop you up and pop out babies for you found you wildly attractive and married you, then you would be successful in your professional life.

    You seem, however, to be forgetting that you need to have something to offer women for them to be interested in you in the first place. You have previously stated on this blog that you have trouble even starting conversations with women, and from what I can tell, you also have massive self-pitying problems AND you are not very motivated in general. I don’t see how these three problems DON’T disqualify you from snagging a hot young virgin for life. And THEN you have the gall to act like you’d be doing yourself a massive disservice if you married someone not of that full description AND insinuate that it’s women’s faults for not throwing themselves at you in the hopes that you will find one of them attractive enough to marry!

    I’m sorry, friend, I wish you well, but with your attitudes of entitlement and of revenge-snubbing the women who spurned you when you were younger (when you presumably had less to offer, and if you even made your intentions to them known), it’s going to be very difficult for you to find a woman who will say to herself, “Gee, I’m going to love having sex with this man until one of us dies!”

  42. y81 January 17, 2011 at 6:17 pm #

    Any rational person would want to move to New York City and be a fashion designer, as opposed to living in some hick backwater or some white bread bedroom suburb. New York City is where it’s at. We are the cool people, the cultural leaders, the engine room of American empire. This is where the future shape of Christianity, as well as next year’s lapel widths, is being decided.

    You might as well ask, why didn’t Jesus stay in Galilee instead of going into Jerusalem? Why didn’t Peter stay in Antioch instead of going to Rome? They knew what New Yorkers know.

  43. The Man Who Was . . . January 17, 2011 at 7:11 pm #

    Haley, it is entirely true that Christian guys are subject to the same forces and can be pretty entitled too. But I don’t think most of them are as entirely unrealistic as girls seem to be. I know a lot of _my_ frustrations in dating boiled down to, “Why the hell can’t I get a 7?” not “Where is my 9?” The one girl I did end up going out with in my 20s was an 8, so I don’t think I was being entirely unrealistic.

    Here are a few of my church dating greatest hits:

    While in my late 20s, I literally begged a girl, a very cute 8 in her early 20s, to absolutely reject me. She liked to talk to me, so I obviously wasn’t creeping her out. I actually told her, “Please, just tell me you’re not interested.” To which she replied, “I can’t do that” At that time that totally blew my mind. I kind of understand now that I was apparently good enough to be the backup plan.

    26 year old chubby 6 (she looked much better in her pictures), I met online in my very early 30s, who after a great exchange of emails and IMs, but a mediocre first meeting (going to see a friend of hers’ band), saying she’d still like to meet up with me again, “I’m trying to give guys a second chance.” I was kind of blown away that such a person of mediocre attractiveness had such a history of peremptorily rejecting guys.

    32 year old 8 who, after I had been practicing my “game” for a lack of a better term, gave me major IOIs every time I talked to her at church, but who always seemed to find an excuse not to go out with me, then constantly creeping on my Christian dating profile.

    One of my best friend’s 32 year old now wife, who came within a hair’s breath of breaking up with him, but for some social proof at a musical performance he gave.

    Witnessing the rejection of younger guys in church that I know the girls will obviously not be able to do better than later.

    Late 20s/early 30s girls I am dating on Eharmony who tell me, “I would have never done this 3 years ago.” I don’t say this, but the thought going through my head with most of them is, “Why weren’t you doing this 5 years ago?”

    From my experience, there is no sense among younger women that they have to do anything or give any guy they are at least somewhat attracted to a bit of a chance.

    It is possible that guys like Hermes just had unrealistic standards, but it is also possible they were constantly very close to succeeding with girls who have a hair trigger response for rejecting guys.

  44. The Man Who Was . . . January 17, 2011 at 7:19 pm #

    In other words, there is a good chance that given a very slight change in our social structure, a lot of personable single guys in church who aren’t would be married by now. They’d make good husbands (i.e. they’d make their wives happy), but can’t get over the initial hurdles.

  45. Kathy January 17, 2011 at 7:26 pm #

    TMWW I do agree that it is much harder for decent men like you to find a wife. (are you Canadian?) Feminism has a lot to answer for.

    It is not as bad here in OZ.

    Perhaps a trip down under is in order? :D

  46. The Man Who Was . . . January 17, 2011 at 7:26 pm #

    Hermes:

    1. It takes more than just a generation or two for religious to formulate an adequate explicit response to changes in the social/intellectual/technological sphere. Conservative religious people still haven’t adequately dealt with the challenge of Darwin and it’s, what, 150 years on from The Origin of Species.

    2. Blood is thicker than religion. People are going to love their kids and are going to pamper them, no matter what. I’d further note that, even if, far worse than just going to NYC or whatever, their daughters were to leave the church and start living with some guy, most people wouldn’t take a hard line and reject them.

  47. The Man Who Was . . . January 17, 2011 at 7:36 pm #

    And, also, there is a pretty bright line on not having premarital sex in our religious traditions, but broader social considerations of the feminist revolution take considerably more thought and experience to form an adequate response to.

  48. Hana January 17, 2011 at 9:57 pm #

    Hermes, with all due respect, what you say doesn’t really make sense. You want a girl who is at least a 7, but not one over the age of 28, because she’s starting to “sag” and would have been “too hot” to be interested in you when she was younger. Which implies that even *if* you meet an attractive girl in her early twenties, you assume that she won’t be interested in you. But maybe she would be if you didn’t doubt yourself as much. Or maybe you really are aiming outside of your league by limiting yourself to “7s”…I don’t know.

    But you say it would be a “major, MAJOR act of settling, …to give up on the possibility of ever getting to experience being with a girl in her early twenties” AND the girl has to be at least a 7.

    You know you’re really limiting yourself to some pretty strict criteria, don’t you?

    I know women date above their league–but most people eventually marry someone within their league. Sure, the girls who settle down young get a more alpha guy than they would if they were older–and a man can boost his status as he gets older–but there’s still a “league.” So, although I have no way of knowing, I feel like if you’re consistently hoping for these youthful 7s but aren’t managing to date any of them, then they’re probably out of your league. Why not compromise a little on either youth or beauty, and go for the 21 year-old 6…or the 30 year-old 7?

  49. Aunt Haley January 17, 2011 at 10:23 pm #

    Man Who Was–
    Late 20s/early 30s girls I am dating on Eharmony who tell me, “I would have never done this 3 years ago.” I don’t say this, but the thought going through my head with most of them is, “Why weren’t you doing this 5 years ago?”

    Because they were hoping to meet someone in real life, not have to resort to the internet to be evaluated like a menu item.

    From my experience, there is no sense among younger women that they have to do anything or give any guy they are at least somewhat attracted to a bit of a chance.

    Why would they think they have to do anything, when sad betas grouse that men will pay attention to them just because they’re young? Also, women will give men chances if they’re a little bit attracted. They won’t if they’re not. If a woman seems to be interested but isn’t giving you much of a chance, then she’s probably just not that into you. Or, she likes you but there is something problematic about your character or some other aspect of your looks/personality/social status.

  50. The Man Who Was . . . January 17, 2011 at 11:46 pm #

    Because they were hoping to meet someone in real life, not have to resort to the internet to be evaluated like a menu item.

    So, you’re 32 and you’ve never had a boyfriend and you couldn’t like clue into the fact that you maybe you’re not really above it all by the time you’re, say, 27.

    Also, women will give men chances if they’re a little bit attracted.

    Read about the girl above who nearly broke up with my friend, the man she is now devoted to. Or the chubby 6 (a 6!) who was starting to realize she should really start giving guys a few more chances. I stand by my assertion girls often reject or are only a hair away from breaking up with guys they kind of _like_ in the hopes of something vastly better coming along.

  51. Kathy January 18, 2011 at 4:41 am #

    This stuff about grading women (or men) according to their “looks” is rather puerile. There are many more things that come into play like morality, having a good heart, being loving and considerate.

    Would you like a 9 who was ill tempered inconsiderate and selfish… Get over yourself!

    Aim for the stars and end up in the gutter.

    Better to be open minded and go with the flow..

  52. ASDF January 18, 2011 at 7:18 am #

    Kathy:

    Are there still a lot of virgins in Oz? I’ve heard that they take a pretty cavalier attitude towards sex down there.

    Also, you’re not going to get very far asking men to ignore looks. A) It’s hardwired into us, and B) half the time, it’s not even about scoring the hottest chick. It’s about scoring a chick that is in the same number category as you. Why should an 8 settle for a 6, just because she’s Godly? In a normal world, he would be paired up with a Godly 8.

  53. Wayfinder January 18, 2011 at 7:49 am #

    Obviously, the entitlement has affected both sexes. Like the other male commentators I can only speak to the male side of things from the inside. I can say that there was an assumption from the older generation that things would just happen; my parents and their peers spent a lot of time worrying about teaching their kids not to have sex and very little time thinking about how their kids were going to look for marriage. Marriage was something that just happened, right?

    This stuff about grading women (or men) according to their “looks” is rather puerile. There are many more things that come into play like morality, having a good heart, being loving and considerate.

    Well, the problem there is that a lot of the women seem to be evaluating themselves on looks. If they were looking at my character it’d be a lot easier to find someone, but I keep seeing late 20’s/early 30’s Christian girls with long lists of requirements and status symbols and no desire to commit to anyone. My last girlfriend wanted to continue the relationship indefinitely while she decided what she wanted to do with her life, and I said no and left.

    I don’t think my status or income are anything to speak of yet, and I’m not exactly a slacker. The idea that I have to wait five more years before girls start to notice my existence is discouraging, and I’ve been trying to alter everything about myself that I can to be a more appealing person in general.

    Even laying aside the physical deterioration thing, it is kind of appalling that Christian guys have to wait around until girls start to get realistic about their prospects in their late 20s/early 30s. No, I don’t mind having 20 years of blue balls at all.

    This is the real problem. Chaste Christian guys have to wait around listening to the women complain that ten years is too long to wait for sex, which was my experience last week.

  54. Aunt Haley January 18, 2011 at 8:18 am #

    Man Who Was–
    Read about the girl above who nearly broke up with my friend, the man she is now devoted to.

    It sounds like she gave him time and that he, for whatever reason, wasn’t convincing enough for her to want to commit the rest of her life to him. Luckily for your friend, fate intervened in the form of social proof/preselection that sealed the deal. Would you rather this woman have married your friend feeling unsure, but “oh, well, I guess I’ll have to take this ’cause I can’t do better?”

    As for the chubby 6, who has committed the cardinal sin of being chubby, she obviously felt she could reject guys because she was not hurting for male attention. So why are you blaming her instead of all of the men who gave her attention over the years, leading her to believe she was in demand?

  55. Julie January 18, 2011 at 8:54 am #

    I think godly 8-9 women have a harder time finding their match these days as well. In the past, Christian alphas seemed to be more interested in marrying, and marrying young. Nowadays, they seem a lot more commitment-phobic.

    As for settling, don’t most people have to do this? Most men are not going to marry a woman who is a 7 or above in looks. Most women are not going to marry an alpha. I think what’s realistic is to expect parity–it’s understandable that a 6 would want a 6. It’s unrealistic for people to be disappointed when they don’t succeed with people out of their league. I mean, be disappointed, sure, but don’t be surprised.

  56. The Man Who Was . . . January 18, 2011 at 9:24 am #

    she obviously felt she could reject guys because she was not hurting for male attention.

    Sorry, but you’re in full on hamster mode.

    Think about it. She has come to the realization that peremptorily rejecting guys wasn’t getting her anywhere. Which means she wasn’t getting attention from higher level guys. Which means even she was starting to realize she was rejecting guys on her level.

  57. The Man Who Was . . . January 18, 2011 at 9:31 am #

    Would you rather this woman have married your friend feeling unsure, but “oh, well, I guess I’ll have to take this ’cause I can’t do better?”

    Yes, I think a lot of Christian women would be happier if they settled.
    Attraction will increase after sex, so long as there is a little bit at the beginning to build on. That’s why secular PUAs advise you to go for the bang as quickly as possible and get her hooked on you. Only then should you start thinking about a relationship. Don’t give her hamster time to come up with bogus excuses. Christian guys don’t have that option.

  58. CAB January 18, 2011 at 1:17 pm #

    y81: Christ did not go to Jerusalem because it’s where all the cool, influential people hang out. He went there to die. Yes, it was important for the early church to go to influential cities — but to spread the Gospel, not to satisfy the ambitions of individual apostles. By your logic, all Christians need to be thoroughly irrational — and I want no part of a “future shape of Christianity,” let alone one determined by egotistical New Yorkers.

    Haley: Also, women will give men chances if they’re a little bit attracted. They won’t if they’re not. If a woman seems to be interested but isn’t giving you much of a chance, then she’s probably just not that into you. Or, she likes you but there is something problematic about your character or some other aspect of your looks/personality/social status.

    This paragraph is self-contradicting. Women will give men chances if they’re a little bit attracted… but if there’s anything wrong with you, or if she only likes you a little, she won’t give you much chance?

    Kathy: When men rank a woman’s looks, they’re ranking a woman’s looks — and nothing else! It’s not about reducing a woman’s value as a person to how hot she is — it’s about making quick comparisons so that other guys have a point of reference. Basically, it’s just a shorthand.

    As for personality: Few men want a 9 who’s impossible to live with (there are plenty of Proverbs about that) — they’ll take an 8 who’s much kinder, sweeter, and more feminine any day. But few men are going to take an incredibly sweet 6 when they could have a nearly-as-sweet 8.

    Haley: Would you rather this woman have married your friend feeling unsure, but “oh, well, I guess I’ll have to take this ’cause I can’t do better?”

    If she couldn’t do better, why should she be disappointed? That seems like the whole problem to me. Obviously, I want women to be thrilled going into marriage, but in a lot of cases, they need serious reality checks, not to find a “better” guy. And they also need to recognize that they’re making the choice as much as the man is.

    Julie: I think godly 8-9 women have a harder time finding their match these days as well. In the past, Christian alphas seemed to be more interested in marrying, and marrying young. Nowadays, they seem a lot more commitment-phobic.

    I think the problem is that what women consider to be a Christian alpha has changed dramatically. 50 years ago, he would’ve been hard-working, gainfully employed, well-mannered, etc. (and, of course, fairly good-looking). Now, thanks to the unseriousness of many churches and young ladies, he’s often a “youth minister” or “worship leader” who’s traveled a lot and doesn’t have a decent job, but is full of charm (and probably still good-looking).

    This is another reason why so many young Christian men are frustrated: We did what we thought we were supposed to do, by working hard, getting a meaningful degree and a solid job, and living responsibly and below our means. But now it’s much, much harder to find an early-20s woman who’s looking for that — whether because we seem too boring (i.e., we’re not sufficiently charming or extraverted), or aren’t passionate enough about our work (where we probably took something that we aren’t crazy about, but pays well, with an eye towards supporting a family), or whatever.

    All that said, I’m not quite 25 yet, so I’m striving not to become bitter — I certainly don’t have good reason to yet. But seeing and reading about seemingly good Christian girls wasting their youth (and, far more seriously, often falling away from faith) when it wasn’t nearly so bad 50 years ago is just depressing.

    Random summing up the frustrations other men and I have expressed in this post: We’re tired of women in their early 20s acting like they’ll always be in their early 20s.

  59. Julie January 18, 2011 at 2:50 pm #

    CAB, I can understand that frustration, and when I was in my early 20s, I was just that way. Partly, it was because I didn’t have to marry just anyone–I went to grad school, and was capable of supporting myself. I had it in mind I wanted two children, so there didn’t seem to be a rush on that.

    But partly, it was a deep fear of “getting it wrong” when it came to marriage, since I am a child of divorce. I think people nowadays recognize that we need to be much more careful and compatible than people were in the past. Our society, and the church, just doesn’t support people in sticking together as they used to. It doesn’t seem to be enough for people who share faith and a love of family to make it long-term. The people with thriving and long-lasting marriages often seem to have more connection and compatibility than that.

  60. The Man Who Was . . . January 18, 2011 at 3:11 pm #

    On reflection, I should have been more polite to our hostess above. However, I completely stand by the substance of what I have said.

  61. The Man Who Was . . . January 18, 2011 at 3:18 pm #

    There is something to the complaint of very good looking or very intelligent Christian women that they have a hard time finding their Christian male counterparts. Devout Christians are a small minority of the general population and very intelligent or very good looking people are a small minority of the devout Christian population, so nowdays it is often hard for those people to find each other. Still, female hypergamy tends to make this situation worse than it needs to be.

  62. Kathy January 18, 2011 at 4:56 pm #

    “Are there still a lot of virgins in Oz? I’ve heard that they take a pretty cavalier attitude towards sex down there.”

    Of course there are sluts here too.

    Not in the circles I move in however.

    Australia has not been immune to this overall lack of Godliness and complete self absorption and hedonism that has engulfed the world.

    It has less to do with feminism (only part of the problem) and more to do with selfishness and materialism.

    We have neglected the spiritual aspect of our humanity and sadly, have ended up with a “soulless” world as a result. An empty shell, if you like..

    Only when we start to open up to God.. When we start to nourish the soul instead of focusing on our bodies, only then will we see an improvement in our society…

    Having said all that…From a secular viewpoint, life in Australia is much better for men. We still really DO like and respect our men here. The marriage rate has been rising since 2001 as has the birth rate.

    It is not perfect here, but it is much better than it is in America.. There is not the bitterness here that I sense so much from male Americans..

  63. y81 January 18, 2011 at 5:31 pm #

    As Glenn Reynolds reminds us today, women’s sexual peak arrives much later than men’s. So the male readers might consider, would I rather have a cold and unenthusiastic 22-year-old or a lusty 30-year-old as my bedmate? Only if maximizing the number of your children is your goal would you choose the former.

    In fact, as I have noted, the demographic evidence suggests, somewhat contrary to the tone of the comments here, that “good” men (i.e., men with college degrees and jobs) are almost certain to find spouses in their late 20s and early 30s. (Whatever frustration the geeky ones and the believers experience in their early 20s is not measurable by demographic analysis.) So maybe the invisible hand is arranging things for the best, matching “good” men with willing wives.

  64. Hermes January 18, 2011 at 6:39 pm #

    Haley:

    You blame WOMEN for your lack of success in life. As in, had only a very physically attractive 20-23-year-old Christian virgin with no personal aspirations in life than to prop you up and pop out babies for you found you wildly attractive and married you, then you would be successful in your professional life.

    A mainstream commentator once remarked that the MRA/MGTOW types “want the lives their grandfathers had and are frustrated that they can’t have them.”

    Remove your indignation at my chronic lugubriousness, and what you’ve described is actually a pretty accurate picture of the pre-sexual-revolution sexual marketplace. A LOT of guys throughout history had their wives fall in love with them–maybe not the headiest, sweatiest, sweep-them-off-their-feetiest love, but love nonetheless–on the basis of not much more than being able to provide for a family and treating them well. Despair and self-pity aren’t attractive, but most men are not going to be suave and sophisticated ladies’ men capable of planning and executing flawless whirlwind dates that inspire the tingles time after time. Women can’t expect that.

    The Man Who Was…:

    I suppose. I never expected these people to disown their daughters, I just thought they had made a much more conscious effort to raise them on the refrain “the purpose for which God made you, and the best way for you to glorify him, is to get married young to a nice-guy provider, have a few kids, and be a housewife,” rather than being silent on the issue and moreover not seeming to mind when the girls instead embrace the “dream big, if you can dream it, you can achieve it, never settle for anything less than the best, change the world, etc.” mentality some of them seem to embrace.

  65. Hermes January 18, 2011 at 6:44 pm #

    y81:

    As Glenn Reynolds reminds us today, women’s sexual peak arrives much later than men’s. So the male readers might consider, would I rather have a cold and unenthusiastic 22-year-old or a lusty 30-year-old as my bedmate? Only if maximizing the number of your children is your goal would you choose the former.

    The “women’s sexual peak” trope is a crock. Besides, even if it were true, the 22-year-old is going to age gradually into a 30-year-old, so by marrying her young you’d get the best of both worlds.

  66. ASDF January 18, 2011 at 9:36 pm #

    …The MRA/MGTOW types “want the lives their grandfathers had and are frustrated that they can’t have them.”

    Most women want this too, though, no surprise, they don’t know it. Women want a guy who will take charge, right? Well, most guys can take charge of submissive women. Back when women were raised to be sugar and spice and everything nice, and guys were raised to act like men, this dynamic worked perfectly.

    Nowadays, women expect men to man up and act like the men they were raised not to be (something I agree with), all the while they completely ignore the fact that they have been raised to constantly question and undermine men. I think a lot of women could be very happy with greater betas (I.e normal, masculine guys who just can’t play them like Mystery can) if society quit telling them to be dissatisfied.

  67. Wayfinder January 18, 2011 at 10:59 pm #

    In fact, as I have noted, the demographic evidence suggests, somewhat contrary to the tone of the comments here, that “good” men (i.e., men with college degrees and jobs) are almost certain to find spouses in their late 20s and early 30s. (Whatever frustration the geeky ones and the believers experience in their early 20s is not measurable by demographic analysis.) So maybe the invisible hand is arranging things for the best, matching “good” men with willing wives.

    Well, first you’re assuming that they were able to find full-time jobs, which is a bit iffy these days. I would agree that the majority of “good” men do get married. But a sizeable number have not, or were married later than they would prefer. And if they were chaste, they had to spend that time watching everyone else have sex (89% of males and 92% of females by age 24 based on one source I found).

    On wanting the lives their grandfathers had, I’d add that they were probably raised with the expectation that this was the moral way to succeed, versus their slacking, sleeping-around parents and peers. And they do it and find that not only is it vastly more difficult to afford a family today, but that the women don’t even appreciate the effort.

  68. cleared in hot February 3, 2011 at 10:45 am #

    So Haley…which of those two men did your friend go on a second date with?

  69. Aunt Haley February 3, 2011 at 11:25 pm #

    cleared–
    So far, neither. Pimp Car Alpha Wannabe did himself in with his exceptional rudeness. The other guy is just digging himself a sad beta ditch by moping about his ex too much.

  70. ASDF February 4, 2011 at 6:18 am #

    How come you aren’t on eHarmony, Haley?

  71. Aunt Haley February 4, 2011 at 6:39 pm #

    ASDF–
    I haven’t run out of blog material yet.

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