Most men don’t care if they marry virgins.

11 Jan

Everywhere in the manosphere, men obsess over virgins like they’re some sort of magical unicorns that have healing powers and can tell the future.  Everywhere, the refrain of “MARRY A VIRGIN” rings out like a catechism.

But realistically, most men, and I include Christian men in this, don’t care if they marry a woman who is a virgin on their wedding night.  They only care that she is a virgin at the time they begin dating.  I think the majority of Christian men, if they were honest with themselves, are happy to marry non-virgins, so long as the non-virgin is their non-virgin.

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103 Responses to “Most men don’t care if they marry virgins.”

  1. Lando January 11, 2011 at 9:56 pm #

    Attending a private Christian University and knowing a lot of people on the maintenance staff I can verify this (lots of stories of going into a closet to change a lightbulb in a guy’s apartment and finding a naked girl). There’s a lot of Christians slutting it up and not seeing anything wrong with it.

    Most people just don’t see a connection between their sex life and their spiritual life.

  2. Simon Grey January 11, 2011 at 10:14 pm #

    I’d agree that most men want the woman they’re with to be their virgin.

    The main point about the Biblical definition of marriage is that it hinges primarily on sexual exclusivity. Marriage today is viewed as a legal contract, which isn’t really the Biblical definition at all, so Christians probably justify their behavior on this line of reasoning. the Bible does make it clear that their is an implied covenant between the two parties, consummated in the marriage bed, but their doesn’t appear to be anything in scripture that would imply the civil government is in charge of this matter, at least in the eyes of God.

    I’m starting to ramble, so I’ll save it for a later post at my blog.

  3. jack January 11, 2011 at 10:42 pm #

    That is basically true.

    Several posts around the manosphere recently pointed to a study that implied that as long as you were a woman’s first sexual partner, you had the lowest chance of divorce. Even if you had sex before marriage.

    Being her first seemed to be the pivotal element.

    That said, the implications are that if you take a girls virginity, you definitely are doing something more serious than if you are her fifteenth.

    If you are her thirtieth-
    http://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/safe-sex
    she may not even notice.

    Have fun!

  4. Athol Kay: Married Man Sex Life January 12, 2011 at 1:22 am #

    Actually if she’s not into you enough to have sex before the wedding, I tend to think she’s just not into you enough to marry her. I’m pro-messing around for engaged types.

  5. Purple Tortoise January 12, 2011 at 5:32 am #

    I think we need to distinguish between sort-of Christian and truly committed Christian men. I am in the latter category and, despite the temptations, remained a virgin until my wedding day. I wouldn’t have wished it any other way.

  6. AM January 12, 2011 at 7:12 am #

    I think we need to distinguish between truly committed Christian men and holier-than-thou Christians.

  7. Wayfinder January 12, 2011 at 7:19 am #

    Well, yeah. That’s the whole point. The problem for the girl is, what happens if the relationship breaks up before the wedding?

    Marriage doesn’t mean what it used to so there is a lot of justification about “it’s only a piece of paper.” Some of that is true. But if a guy is honestly trying to hold out for marriage then I’m not going to discourage him. If you can’t wait, why not have a quick ceremony now?

    There are at least three categories of men who are looking for virgins to marry: non-religious secular men, who are following an innate desire for faithfulness but are more likely to have slept around themselves; Christian men who are virgins themselves; and the guys who are somewhere between: guys who came to Christ late, or who “sowed their wild oats” or whatever.

    I know a lot of guys who are waiting for marriage. There is a shortage of virgins, so a lot of guys will settle for less. But that doesn’t make virginity any less valuable. To the contrary!

  8. cleared in hot January 12, 2011 at 7:19 am #

    Haley, you’re projecting here…BIG TIME.

    One of the major reasons why this is different for men (especially Christian men) is because of female moral particularism. Phi explains it well, here:

    http://academywatch.blogspot.com/2008/01/men-women-moral-universalism.html

  9. Purple Tortoise January 12, 2011 at 7:31 am #

    “I think we need to distinguish between truly committed Christian men and holier-than-thou Christians.”

    Can truly committed Christian men fall into sin? Yes. Can truly committed Christian men think it is no big deal to sin? No.

  10. Toz January 12, 2011 at 7:51 am #

    It comes to self control. If I’m going to marry someone whose morals involve holding out having sex until marriage, it makes sense to try to find one that succeeded, not failed. If she can’t control her vagina before marriage, how can I trust her to do so when we are married? Self control is a virtue that’s worth getting, even if some people don’t value it as much.

    This of course, doesn’t apply if her morals are such that she doesn’t value holding out having sex until marriage. In that case, it’s important to see if she holds to any morals at all and how consistent she is able to hold to them. In particular, since marriage is a promise of fidelity, she must at the very least have the quality of character to keep her promise to you. Her ability to keep promises to herself or to God is an excellent indicator of whether she can in marriage.

    If you’re a man and you don’t consider her ability to keep promises, you’re basically asking for failure (divorce and all the evil that comes with it). So really, your post should say,

    “Stupid men don’t care about virginity”

  11. Cane Caldo January 12, 2011 at 8:27 am #

    In today’s episode: Haley discovers that men are made in God’s image, but are still sinful and have fallen from grace. Meanwhile, Spite comes back in her recurring role as Sarcasm.

  12. jack January 12, 2011 at 8:56 am #

    The most interesting case for men is how/why she chose a particular guy to be her first.

  13. Simon Grey January 12, 2011 at 10:35 am #

    Here’s the blog post I promised.

    http://cygne-gris.blogspot.com/2011/01/disappearance-of-marriage.html

    It turned out to be more broad-based than I planned.

  14. Lover of Wisdom January 12, 2011 at 12:06 pm #

    I think there are two things here: what a Christian man desires and what a Christian man believes he ought to do. As a man, I want a virgin and then to deflower her as soon as possible because having sex with girls is a lot of fun and feels fantastic. As a serious Christian man, I want to do the right thing and marry her first. The second part is the struggle.

  15. Wayfinder January 12, 2011 at 12:20 pm #

    Given the audience (presumably Christian girls looking to marry Christian guys) the market you’re looking for is different from the general pool. The Christian guys who are unmarried, serious, and looking for marriage are going to tend to have very low numbers and to be looking for girls who have the character to match. That’s usually going to mean a virgin. Not that there won’t be exceptions and forgiveness (we’re all fallen) but that’s the kind of thing that’s valued.

    Past that we’re arguing about definition of marriage; I’m inclined to render the legal side of the marriage contract unto Caesar, but to look for character rather than contracts to preserve the union. No sex without marriage, for the witness if nothing else, but it doesn’t have to be the farce of the modern wedding season either.

  16. nothingbutthetruth January 12, 2011 at 2:00 pm #

    “They only care that she is a virgin at the time they begin dating.” Agreed. And many Christian men don’t even care if the girl is virgin at all, even if she lost her virginity with somebody else.

    Having said that, Christianity tells both men and women to be virgins when married. I don’t care about this but, hey, I don’t consider myself a Christian (my goal is to eventually become one but, unfortunately, I am far away from it).

    But what I don’t want to be is member of Cafeteria Christianity, a Church whose members pick and choose the parts of Christianity that they like and disregard the rest. Christianity is not a “feel-good” religion: it requires sacrifice and going agains your animal instincts and desires.

    Most self-proclaimed Christians are only Cafeteria Christians. And virginity is only an example of that.

  17. knepper January 12, 2011 at 3:02 pm #

    Most here would have no trouble, I think, accepting the idea that marrying a woman who has been with a lot of guys is dangerous (or even foolish), because she will not be able to ‘bond’ with you to the proper extent. Even is she has been with one other guy, it will still be a problem. But what if the ‘other guy’ is you, before you married?
    I think it could still be a problem, if you are both committed Christians. You will both know that you failed the test that the Bible expects of you, and she may (probably will) blame you for it. She may not bond to you to as great an extent because of the resentment over what ‘you did to her.’ (I’m not preaching to anyone, because my marriage was a case study in how not to do it).
    I agree with Lover of Wisdom. If you decide to get married, do it quickly. Planning a huge wedding is pointless (or harmful) in so many ways, one of which is the delay makes it harder to resist sexual temptation.

  18. Cane Caldo January 12, 2011 at 3:08 pm #

    “Having said that, Christianity tells both men and women to be virgins when married. I don’t care about this but, hey, I don’t consider myself a Christian (my goal is to eventually become one but, unfortunately, I am far away from it).”

    So once you’ve won the race, you’ll run it? Once you’ve saved yourself, you’ll seek salvation? Why bother?

  19. Badger Nation January 12, 2011 at 3:09 pm #

    I think this post is not even wrong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong). It’s impossible to evaluate its premise, any analysis has to be qualified and there’s the spectrum of virgin, slut, and several points in between. Not to mention that to paint most men as wannabe “virgin-busters” is silly.

  20. Aunt Haley January 12, 2011 at 8:44 pm #

    Toz–
    If I’m going to marry someone whose morals involve holding out having sex until marriage, it makes sense to try to find one that succeeded, not failed. If she can’t control her vagina before marriage, how can I trust her to do so when we are married?

    What man honestly thinks this? Aren’t most men so overjoyed to get sex and persuaded by their masculine egos that there is no way their women could be looking anywhere else? (I mean, other than the men who regularly comment at this blog, who are probably the most likely to distrust women.)

    jack–
    The most interesting case for men is how/why she chose a particular guy to be her first.

    1. He kept badgering her for sex and she gave in after being worn down.
    2. He threatened to leave her/shamed her into giving him sex to keep him.
    3. She thought he was going to marry her/she was “in love”.
    4. She was horny.
    5. She was tired of/embarrassed about still being a virgin.

    knepper–
    If you decide to get married, do it quickly. Planning a huge wedding is pointless (or harmful) in so many ways, one of which is the delay makes it harder to resist sexual temptation.

    I totally agree that engagements should be short.

  21. Josh January 12, 2011 at 8:56 pm #

    This seems to be a recurring theme here – the idea that virginity doesn’t matter, or that you can “revirginize” by being not having sex after you first meet or start dating. Wishing it were true doesn’t make it so.

    There is not a man on earth who wishes his wife or girlfriend had more sex partners before she met him. You can certainly tip the scales in favor of the non-virgin, if you compare a dumpy fat middle-aged Christian virgin to a young-reformed hottie who had some fun in college. But all other things held equal, the virgin wins over the non-virgin. Virginity may not be a dealbreaker anymore, but it is still desirable and definitely a factor.

    As to those pointing out all the Christians sleeping around, sure, point out the hypocrisy, but it doesn’t change anything. Just because guys value virginity in a girl doesn’t mean they won’t take whatever they can get.

    Play with the bad girls, marry the good girls – is this anything we don’t already know?

  22. Aunt Haley January 12, 2011 at 9:06 pm #

    Josh–
    It probably wouldn’t be such a theme if I didn’t sense that men are saying one thing and doing another.

  23. ASDF January 12, 2011 at 9:18 pm #

    They aren’t really saying one thing and doing another. For a happy marriage, the mantra is “find a virgin and make her yours”. Whether that is two to six months into a relationship, or after a year and a half wait culminating with an expensive wedding and a government license, the effect is the same (Except maybe in the eyes of the Lord): You are the only man your wife has been with.

  24. Wayfinder January 12, 2011 at 10:34 pm #

    The virgin angst is coming from different sources, some of which overlap. Secular playboys who want to settle down were perfectly happy sleeping with the girls but a lot more reluctant to marry them. Most of the PUA-manosphere is about constantly trying to bed easy girls while refusing to have relationships with them. The anti-marriage group sees all girls as too easy and are refusing relationships on those grounds. Most guys, even non-religious guys, perceive virginity as a sign of sexual faithfulness. The betas have trouble finding girls at all, so any sexual experience on her part is disqualifying for marriage. The alphas can have their pick. The faithful Christian guys who are still single and waiting for marriage are hoping for someone equally committed, though some of them will be too weak to make it all the way. The less committed Christians will give lip-service to waiting, and they’ll still want her to be their virgin.

    Some of these groups will have no problem sleeping with the girl first. Some may have that as a necessity before an actual relationship. Secular virgin guys often just lack opportunity, and often don’t attach much importance to the formal ceremony. Religious virgin guys will theoretically be stricter about it, but that partially depends on if they chose to be virgins and have turned down actual opportunities. In almost every case, the bright line isn’t the wedding ceremony, it’s the only-one-partner, with all that implies.

    The chaste Christian virgin male who deeply believes in waiting for marriage is an exception to this, but we’re apparently a dying breed.

  25. Purple Tortoise January 13, 2011 at 5:21 am #

    “It probably wouldn’t be such a theme if I didn’t sense that men are saying one thing and doing another.”

    Are committed Christian men saying one thing and doing another? Or are you speaking of the atheist, the man who plans to become a Christian someday, etc.

    Haley, I have the impression that you are looking for a square circle. It seems that the available committed Christian men don’t have the personality traits that you find attractive, yet the men you do find attractive lack genuine faith.

  26. Aunt Haley January 13, 2011 at 7:08 am #

    Wayfinder–
    I don’t think PUAs are all about bedding easy girls so much as finding ways to make all girls easy, if that distinction makes any sense.

    Purple Tortoise–
    I specified men in this article, not just Christian men. But I do think Christian men largely fall into this mindset, mainly because they are not genuinely committed to chastity before marriage.

    Also, I think most women are looking for a square circle.

  27. Wayfinder January 13, 2011 at 7:21 am #

    @Haley
    It does, with the addition that they will then despise the girls who do give it up for them. But that’s another topic.

  28. Toz January 13, 2011 at 8:46 am #

    Haley –

    First, very few men have such monstrous egos to think that they are the be-all and end-all gift to women. That’s essentially what you would have to believe as a man to think that you would satisfy a woman so completely that she would never ever think about another man for the rest of her life. Remember, she doesn’t have to be actively “looking” for her to fall into temptation.

    Second, yes, the thrill of sex is huge and blinds some men in regards to longer-term consequences. But you know, some men do actually think about things other than sex. It makes zero difference if you have no choices. That is, if you happen to be a beta male with very limited options. But if you actually have some choices, there’s a definite rational decision-making process that most men go through. The actual decision depends heavily on the morals and values of the particular man, but the general process isn’t all that different.

    If you are a man with some options, then these things will matter. If not, they won’t. Seeing as most men don’t have many options, perhaps you are right. Most don’t care about virginity. I would say that the alpha males that most women crave, though, absolutely do.

  29. jack January 13, 2011 at 9:14 am #

    @Toz

    Yes, the mid to lower range of beta males do not usually have enough market power to pull a very chaste girl (who is even remotely attractive), so you end up with them having to settle for a girl who hadalittlefunincollegeitsnotyourplacetojudgeme.

    The problem is that many men secretly (or not so secretly) begrudge these women their “fun”.

    Sin was fun? Okay.

    The other element that always bears repeating is that most men know or suspect that the ‘fun’ was had with higher status men then he is, given womens’ ability to pull such men in short term hookups. He knows that she has had “better” and he knows that she will always view him as someone she settled for.

    You can call that insecurity, of course, but it misses the point that sometimes insecurity is the correct response.

  30. Goblue January 13, 2011 at 9:47 am #

    @jack

    If a Christian girl were to tell me “hadalittlefunincollegeitsnotyourplacetojudgeme”, I would run for the hills as fast as I could.

  31. Toz January 13, 2011 at 11:21 am #

    @jack

    Yea, pretty much every man isn’t going to be happy that they married someone that’s been with other guys. I don’t think the previous guy’s status matters all that much. If he’s higher, then you get jealous. If he’s lower, it devalues her and by implication you. There are no good ex-lovers.

    I would say that getting jealous is totally beta. It’s going to lower her attraction for you and make you look weak, so it’s probably not appropriate.

  32. Cane Caldo January 13, 2011 at 2:50 pm #

    It would be foolish to value marital history over sexual history. Suppose a woman married, but by some strange fate she remained a virgin. It wouldn’t bother a later husband at all. Now, pick a person you know who had a “serious”, sexual relationship with just one man, but never married. We’re wary.

    Why? Because sex wasn’t invented to give marriage purpose, but exactly the opposite: marriage is an institution meant to govern sexual behavior.

  33. nothingbutthetruth January 13, 2011 at 3:04 pm #

    “If he’s higher, then you get jealous. If he’s lower, it devalues her and by implication you. There are no good ex-lovers.”

    Agreed. The best is not to have ex-lovers. The rates of marriage unhappiness, divorce and infidelity increase with the numbers of ex-lovers (for both sexes).

    Having said that, for men, it is far better for your wife to have “lower” ex-lovers than “higher” ex-lovers. Given women’s hypergamy, having a “higher” ex-lover is a shadow over the current relationship. The woman cannot stop thinking that she has settled and that she can do better. A recipe for divorce or unhappiness.

    Having a “lower” ex-lover means that your wife looks up to you and think you are the best she can have. It is not an ideal situation but it is far better than the previous one.

    (About the thing I said before, I could not explain myself well. It is not that I “plan” to become Christian some day after having had “my fun”.

    It is that I lost my faith longtime ago because of intellectual reasons. But I still miss the presence of God in my life so I would be delighted to recover my faith. I don’t lose the hope of achieving that and I try to do whatever I can to increase the odds)

  34. knepper January 13, 2011 at 4:54 pm #

    If ‘Hadsomefunincollegeyouhavenorighttojudgeme’ was honest about her past prior to marriage, that’s one thing. You knew you were getting slightly used (and likely damaged) goods, but you agreed to the deal. If you thought you were getting a virgin, and then found out differently–I would be upset. But then, if you assume a girl is a virgin because she is or claims to be Christian, you are truly naive.

  35. CAB January 13, 2011 at 5:00 pm #

    The problem with “Hadsomefunincollegeyouhavenorighttojudgeme” is not so much the “had some fun in college” part (though that’s still bad) as the “you have no right to judge me” part.

  36. Purple Tortoise January 13, 2011 at 5:06 pm #

    Haley,

    If you think Christian men are not genuinely committed to chastity before marriage, perhaps you’re attending the wrong churches.

    Yes, most women these days are looking for a square circle, but those willing take a square square or a circular circle are the ones who get married. I’ve known quite attractive Christian women who could have had almost any single Christian man but instead got into a string of relationships with non-Christian men who had more worldly looks and charm. These women knew better than to marry a non-Christian, but they couldn’t find any Christian man good enough for them, either. Now these women are single, in their 40’s, and dating far below the quality of men who paid attention to them in their 20’s.

  37. Bisch January 13, 2011 at 10:22 pm #

    @nothingbutthetruth:

    (About the thing I said before, I could not explain myself well. It is not that I “plan” to become Christian some day after having had “my fun”.

    It is that I lost my faith longtime ago because of intellectual reasons. But I still miss the presence of God in my life so I would be delighted to recover my faith. I don’t lose the hope of achieving that and I try to do whatever I can to increase the odds)

    May I recommend a book? The Reason for God by Timothy Keller. He’s a pastor of a church in Manhattan, has been for many years, and used to have a question and answer session for skeptics after his service, where the most ardent, Manhattan intellectual peppered him with questions. Those sessions are mostly what he used for fodder to write the book. It’s unlike any Christian apologetics book I’ve ever read. Very intellectual, very precise, very convincing (but true I was already convinced). I’m so high on this book for a skeptic such as yourself, that I’ll have it sent to you if you promise to read it…email me and we can set it up. paul at bischoffproperties period com.

    I would absolutely offer that there are solid, reasonable, intellectual reasons to believe the God of Abraham exists.

  38. Miss365 January 14, 2011 at 7:06 am #

    I personally don’t want to buy into the idea that all guys are seeking this and that all Christian guys are seeking this. However I wasn’t always a Christian but I have made a personal choice to remain celibate since the break up of my last serious relationship almost 11 years ago. And while that doesn’t qualify me for ‘virgin status’ and I deplore the term ‘born again virgin’ my personal choice has been made because I believe from experience ( and from what the Word says )that sex binds you to that person. And the next time I sleep with someone I want it to be with my husband. So that said, I would hope that my future husband would be open minded enough to respect my choice to wait once I “knew” it wasn’t right.

    Maybe it’s a matter of knowledge.

    But that’s a debate for another post ;)

  39. CAB January 14, 2011 at 7:22 am #

    Miss365: Yeah, that’s another thing that hasn’t come up much in the comments. There’s a big difference between a girl who didn’t become a Christian until her 20s, and thus has some sexual experience but is truly repentant of it; and a girl who’s been a nominal Christian since she was 6, but slept around (or did everything but) anyway and doesn’t see it as a big deal.

    I think many Christian men, virgins or not, wouldn’t have all that much problem with the first girl — especially if they’re in their late 20s and have become a bit jaded about younger, nominally Christian women. They’d still prefer virgins, obviously, but if genuine ignorance before and true repentance now are the case, that’s a good sign of the woman’s new character. So while the woman may still lose a point or two, it’s often not going to be a deal-breaker — certainly not the way “Hadsomefunincollegeyouhavenorighttojudgeme” should be.

  40. nothingbutthetruth January 14, 2011 at 8:17 am #

    Bisch, thank you for your offer. I am writing you to your address. I have been asking for years to my Christian friends for a book or a person who can answer my intellectual doubts about faith (to no avail), so I am really interested.

  41. terry@breathinggrace January 14, 2011 at 10:07 am #

    @CAB and Missy365, With these comments:

    There’s a big difference between a girl who didn’t become a Christian until her 20s, and thus has some sexual experience but is truly repentant of it; and a girl who’s been a nominal Christian since she was 6, but slept around (or did everything but) anyway and doesn’t see it as a big deal.

    and this:

    So that said, I would hope that my future husband would be open minded enough to respect my choice to wait once I “knew” it wasn’t right.

    Maybe it’s a matter of knowledge,

    You captured very well my thoughts on being ever so careful not to hold fellow brothers and sisters in Christ hostage to sins they committed before they ever knew the sin was wrong, had a true heart change, and repented.

    If, as Haley seems to believe, that a majority of single men in the church have no commitment to chastity before marriage, then I would argue that they are NOT Christians. Of course, I would argue that most professed Christians probably aren’t Christians anyway, particularly given America’s watered down, “salvation-costs-you-nothing-but you-get-everything-including-a-get-out-of-hell-free-card” version of the gospel.

  42. mshkosh January 14, 2011 at 1:15 pm #

    My husband was the first guy I slept with, so I was one of those girls. I am not 100% sure it was the right decision. I was 24 when I got married. I find it difficult to believe that having sex with a previous guy would keep a woman from bonding with a second guy.

  43. jack January 14, 2011 at 1:20 pm #

    miss365 and CAB

    Yes. This is a reasonable position. And this is the person who I will probably end up married to, if I ever marry.

  44. Miss365 January 15, 2011 at 3:59 am #

    @Mshkosh – I don’t think it means that you can’t bond with the next person ( or subsequent partners ) but you do have a connection with someone you have been intimate with that you don’t have when you haven’t.

  45. Julie January 15, 2011 at 7:04 am #

    Actually, the men who sometimes haunt me now that I’m married, are the men I crushed on but never dated or was physically intimate with in any way. If I actually dated a man, I know his faults all too well, LOL.

  46. mshkosh January 15, 2011 at 7:42 am #

    @Julie…can you explain what you mean by haunt?…that you remember them fondly?

  47. mshkosh January 15, 2011 at 7:44 am #

    @miss365….I apologize for not being more clear. I have been reading alot about this subject, lately, and have come across this as a belief. That having sex with a man precludes you from bonding with a subsequent man. I did NOT read it into this article, but it came to mind as I was reading about why men want virgins.

  48. Anonymous January 15, 2011 at 9:34 am #

    Men don’t want virgins any more; virgins don’t know anything about sex.

  49. Julie January 15, 2011 at 10:43 am #

    Haunt…

    Think about them, wonder about them, wonder why they didn’t pursue me, wonder what they’re doing, find it hard to have anything but an idealized view of them…

  50. mshkosh January 15, 2011 at 12:51 pm #

    @Julie…Oh yes Julie..I completely “get” that.

  51. ASDF January 15, 2011 at 5:34 pm #

    Men don’t want virgins any more; virgins don’t know anything about sex.

    I’ve actually heard a few guys say this, but I just don’t see the logic. I’d rather have a girl I can train than have one who’s a pro ’cause she’s had a million dicks all up inside her.

  52. The Man Who Was . . . January 16, 2011 at 8:52 am #

    While I sympathize with the religious arguments against having sex with your fiance, the research shows that women who live together with their boyfriend first don’t have any less marital success than anyone else, so long as he is the only person she has had sex with.

    The purely utilitarian argument against premarital sex isn’t that if you do it before marriage it will hurt the marriage (even selection effect doesn’t seem to matter that much). Rather allowing sex before marriage opens the doors to women having sex with men other than their future husbands. And that _does_ reduce the chance of their marital success.

    It’s the sex with more than one man that does the damage, not the context in which that sex occurs.

    As for Christian women not demanding virginity of their husbands, there are two factors:

    1. Due to the higher rate of Christian men than women with some sexual experience, it would mean a lot of them would have to do without a husband.
    2. Premarital sex tends to do _vastly_ less damage to a man. Not no damage, but vastly less.

    I agree with others that there is a big difference between keeping oneself chaste and demanding it of your future mate.

  53. The Man Who Was . . . January 16, 2011 at 8:54 am #

    I’d rather have a girl I can train than have one who’s a pro ’cause she’s had a million dicks all up inside her.

    Someone over at Roissy’s said the following: guys who want virgins have a hard time understanding guys who want sluts, and guys who want sluts have a hard time understanding guys who want virgins.

  54. Cane Caldo January 16, 2011 at 10:31 am #

    “Someone over at Roissy’s said the following: guys who want virgins have a hard time understanding guys who want sluts, and guys who want sluts have a hard time understanding guys who want virgins.”

    The difference being some guys want a purely sexual outlet, and some guys want a wife.

  55. jen January 16, 2011 at 10:43 am #

    @ the man who was..What kind of damage are we talking a bout here? or is it just statistical damage?

  56. terry@breathinggrace January 16, 2011 at 11:56 am #

    As for Christian women not demanding virginity of their husbands, there are two factors:

    1. Due to the higher rate of Christian men than women with some sexual experience, it would mean a lot of them would have to do without a husband.
    2. Premarital sex tends to do _vastly_ less damage to a man. Not no damage, but vastly less.

    I agree with others that there is a big difference between keeping oneself chaste and demanding it of your future mate.

    I agree completely.

  57. Julie January 16, 2011 at 4:12 pm #

    I think paternity uncertainty is the reason why men can be so turned off by women with experience.

    As for women being damaged by it otherwise, I don’t know. I mean, you’re attracted to your husband or you’re not. Just because you’re a virgin doesn’t mean you will be wildly enthusiastic about sex with someone you aren’t strongly attracted to.

  58. Anthony January 16, 2011 at 9:37 pm #

    For those of you who doubt the “damage”, there is statistical validity to the idea that multiple sexual partners make a woman more likely to cheat and/or divorce. There’s a post on the subject here (which links to a couple of other posts), and I’ve managed to find an old(ish) paper on the subject here.

    That’s the statistical side of it. Causality? That’s been discussed endlessly, too, though Julie’s comment about being haunted more by the men she wasn’t with than the ones she was really strikes a chord with me, and doesn’t fit the common theories.

  59. Kathy January 17, 2011 at 5:09 am #

    Multipal sexual partners make men and women both likely to cheat..

    Men who seek to marry virgins should themselves be virgins. Otherwise, they are hypocrites!

    Fornication is fornication..

    God does not differentiate between the sexes on that score.

  60. jen January 17, 2011 at 7:01 am #

    The older article says this in it

    . However, when the analysis controls for unobserved characteristics affecting both the likelihood of having premarital sex and the likelihood of divorce, the differential is no longer statistically significant. These results suggest that the positive relationship between premarital sex and the risk of divorce can be attributed to prior unobserved differences (e.g., the willingness to break traditional norms) rather than to a direct causal effect.

    which was kinda my hunch…..these studies make me wonder what things are being controlled for.

  61. jen January 17, 2011 at 7:04 am #

    am I just naive, or does the average guy really question the paternity of his kids??

  62. jen January 17, 2011 at 7:05 am #

    This subject fascinates me…another question that comes to my mind is….are women in second marriages, by default, more likely to cheat,then?

  63. Julie January 17, 2011 at 8:10 am #

    Jen, I doubt most men are thinking consciously about whether they are actually the father. However, a surprising percentage of men really are not the bio fathers of their kids. Can you imagine how horrifying it would be to find this out?

    On an unconscious level, this is likely why men prefer virgins and get so turned off by women’s prior experience. Most women don’t feel such an aversion to non-virgin men. Which makes sense when you consider that a man can never fool a woman into thinking a child is hers when it isn’t.

    It’s mostly not conscious–however, throughout history, men who married virgins who were faithful to them would have left behind more descendants than other men. And the men today have descended from these men and thus would have the same kind of hard-wiring in their brains.

  64. Goblue January 17, 2011 at 8:52 am #

    @Kathy

    Given that the divorce laws are biased against men, for a Chirstian woman who wants to follow the SAHM-Male provider model, the onus is on her to prove that she is not a high risk for divorce, and that she won’t open her legs indiscriminately in the presence of a PUA.

    Men are judged on their providing abilities, with sexual history being less important.

    This is the reality of life. It isn’t fair, but nothing in life is fair, so deal with it.

  65. jen January 17, 2011 at 2:34 pm #

    @Goblue..does being a virgin prove that?

  66. Julie January 17, 2011 at 3:59 pm #

    Just to be contrary again, I think sometimes that having dated alphas in the past, it better enables me to appreciate my husband (likely a greater beta on the scale people seem to be using). Since I’ve been burned by alphas in the past, I have learned my lesson and they no longer enthrall me.

    If I had never dated an alpha and then married a beta, I wonder if I would have retained a fascination with them. Probably depends on the woman…

  67. Kathy January 17, 2011 at 4:19 pm #

    “Men are judged on their providing abilities, with sexual history being less important.”

    Not by God they are not Goblue.. And not by Christians who take their faith seriously either. A man who has slept with many women is just not good husband material.

    Apart from that, the thought of marrying such a man would make me sick to the stomach.

    For me sex is inextricably tied up with love. It is something special that you share with your loving spouse.Sex brings a couple closer together.. Deepens their love and strengthens the bond between them.

    “This is the reality of life. It isn’t fair, but nothing in life is fair, so deal with it.”

    Nothing to deal with.. I have been married for fifteen years to a wonderful man.. And that bond just keeps deepening and getting stronger every day ;)

    People who treat sex in such a cavalier manner be they male or female will indeed have trouble bonding and remaining faithful if they marry.

    Btw, in all the years that I have been marrried to my husband I have never once thought of (or been tempted) having sex with another man. It is anathema to me. Such is the strength of our physical and spiritual bond.

    Sadly, sex is in the gutter these days. If you want it you are encouraged to satisfy your “needs” just like any animal would. There is no restraint… There is no love… There is no fulfillment or true joy.. There is no deep spiritual connection.

    Empty sex has always been and will always continue to be.. just that. Empty sex!

  68. Kathy January 17, 2011 at 4:54 pm #

    “This subject fascinates me…another question that comes to my mind is….are women in second marriages, by default, more likely to cheat,then?”

    I just noticed your question Jen. This is my second marriage. I was a virgin when I married my first husband (he was also a virgin) at the age of nineteen. The marriage ended in divorce.( I eventually obtained an annullment from the Catholic Church.)

    Shortly afterwards I met my husband, within twelve months we were married. I have never looked back. I never think of my former husband… I did once see him at his father’s funeral a few years ago. I went to pay my respects to a good and decent man.. I was worried that it might be awkward… When I saw my ex I went straight up to him and hugged him, telling him how sorry I was .. Interestingly, I felt nothing.It was like hugging a stranger.. Of course I felt compassion.. But, that was it.

    Did I bond with my first husband? Yes, I did.

    The bond however was destroyed over time because he had a gambling habit that I was unaware of at the time of the marriage. This coupled with the fact that he discoverd that he was infertile further eroded that bond, and pushed him over the edge.

    Nothing I could do or say would console him. He told me to find a man who could give me children, such was the pain and torment that he was undergoing. ( I came to understand this better later on)

    I believed that marriage was forever. I wouldn’t leave. In the end he was unfaithful.. I realize now that I was just a constant reminder of his inability to have children..

    So in answer to your question Jen.. Not for me!

    However it would depend on the circumstances, the woman’s background, how she was brought up by her parents, and if she had had a high partner count..

  69. The Man Who Was . . . January 17, 2011 at 6:34 pm #

    Multipal sexual partners make men and women both likely to cheat..

    But it’s much more likely for women.

    Men who seek to marry virgins should themselves be virgins. Otherwise, they are hypocrites!

    What exactly is hypocritical about prudence?

    Fornication is fornication..

    It is a sin for both, but has significantly worse consequences for women.

  70. Kathy January 17, 2011 at 7:02 pm #

    “But it’s much more likely for women.”

    That may be the case, but if I were a single woman today I would not want to take a risk with a man who had slept with many women..Besides as mentioned earlier it would be a turn off.

    “What exactly is hypocritical about prudence?”

    I’ll be blunt. TMWW. If I were a single virgin and you were a man who had slept with many women I would not have anything to do with you. It’s called prudence. :) (there is also a little thing called self respect involved..)

    “It is a sin for both, but has significantly worse consequences for women.”

    Nope, can’t agree there.

    Men and women who fornicate (unless they repent) are all going to end up in the same place.. Hell.

    God is an equal-opportunity creator when it comes to the sins of mankind.

  71. nothingbutthetruth January 18, 2011 at 2:26 pm #

    “Men who seek to marry virgins should themselves be virgins. Otherwise, they are hypocrites!”

    Not necessarily. This is the same as saying:

    “Women who want to marry a career man should themselves have a career. Otherwise, they are hypocrites!” (This would make stay-at-home moms a bunch of hypocrites)

    “Women who want a strong man to protect them should be strong themselves”

    “Men who want a beautiful woman should be beautiful themselves”

    I don’t seek to marry a virgin and my girlfriend was not virgin before knowing me, so this is not a personal issue for me.

    But women and men have different criteria about selection of partners so it is not hypocrisy to want something different from what you have. For example, men value physical beauty more than women. Women value status more than men and so on.

  72. Julie January 18, 2011 at 2:51 pm #

    “For example, men value physical beauty more than women.”

    People say this, but is it really true? I cared about how good-looking a man was, as did most of my friends.

  73. CAB January 18, 2011 at 3:07 pm #

    Kathy: “It is a sin for both, but has significantly worse consequences for women.”

    Nope, can’t agree there.

    Men and women who fornicate (unless they repent) are all going to end up in the same place.. Hell.

    God is an equal-opportunity creator when it comes to the sins of mankind.

    There are earthly consequences to things, too. It’s not a good idea to ignore them. Most women value chastity in men much less than most men value it in women. Certainly Christians should value it quite highly either way, but it’s just not how our biology is wired.

    Julie: “For example, men value physical beauty more than women.”

    People say this, but is it really true? I cared about how good-looking a man was, as did most of my friends.

    I don’t think anyone would argue that women don’t care about a man’s looks, but there’s a pretty big difference in how important it is to each sex. That seems pretty well-documented, such as how visual men are in regards to sex itself. Most people end up marrying someone comparable to themselves looks-wise, but it seems much more common for men to gain one or more points on the scale through wealth, status, character, etc. Good-looking guy + plain Jane couples seem a lot rarer than average Joe + pretty wife couples.

  74. Kathy January 18, 2011 at 3:56 pm #

    “Most women value chastity in men much less than most men value it in women.”

    Ya know, I am getting sick and tired of hearing this rubbish regurgitated by men…

    You need to rephrase it like this. Most sluts value chastity in men much less than most man whores value it in women.

    Then it would be true.

    Unfortunately many people in this debauched world of today do not value chastity and purity.

    True Christians ( not nominal ones) do not rack up notch counts! They believe that sex belongs in marriage.

    None of my Christian friends thing a guy is cool because he has slept with a slew of women. Quite the contrary..

    Now, a slut, well that’s a diffrent story. In lieu of love and selfless concern for others she will be happy with a “used” man because (supposed) technique is all that matters as she moves from one sexual fling to the another.

    Like attracts like!

    No decent Christian woman wants a man with a high partner count.That is the reality.

    One would do well to remember that PUA’s attract like minded women.

  75. CAB January 18, 2011 at 4:50 pm #

    Kathy: I think we’re actually largely in agreement. I said “most women,” and you’re trying to refute it with how you and other Christians feel. But Christians who actually believe what the Bible says about sexuality are relatively rare — and you seem to be agreeing in your post that most people today are (man-)whores.

    I’m a virgin Christian male, and I value chastity quite highly in both sexes — I find it admirable in both, and quite attractive in women. But our views are not like those of most people. And even among Christian women, you can find those who are drawn to the “reformed rake” type. There may not be any in your circle of friends, but they are out there — and it doesn’t make them non-Christian to struggle with temptation.

    And, honestly, which scenario seems more likely to you: A virgin Christian man marries a woman who slept with one man once, or a virgin Christian woman marries a man who slept with one woman once? I’m not saying that good Christian women want men with high partner counts — though I don’t doubt that some secretly struggle with such a desire, or at least desire for the high-status men who are likely to have had high counts.

    But women are more likely to compromise on a man’s virginity than men are on a woman’s — that’s borne out anecdotally and makes logical sense, because, again, the earthly consequences of fornication tend to be less severe for men than for women.

    (One last point: I do want to note that you come off as awfully self-righteous in this last comment. I’m in total agreement with you about fornication being a sin. But is everyone either a virgin or a (man-)whore? What about the man or woman who gave in to temptation for just one night, and has been chaste since? Personally, I can’t say that I’m sure I’d have managed to wait if I’d had more opportunity to sin. I’ve avoided putting myself in bad situations, and haven’t gone looking for extramarital sex, but if I’d had a long-term girlfriend give into temptation herself, I don’t know if I’d have been strong enough to resist.)

  76. Kathy January 18, 2011 at 5:36 pm #

    “One last point: I do want to note that you come off as awfully self-righteous in this last comment. I’m in total agreement with you about fornication being a sin.”

    Yes, you are right CAB, I do come off that way, I agree. I guess that I am just sick and tired of the way people treat one another..And their lack of love for God.

    “Personally, I can’t say that I’m sure I’d have managed to wait if I’d had more opportunity to sin”

    I appreciate your honesty CAB.. Look I am no pearl pureheart. I am a sinner like everyone else.

    In between splitting with my first husband meeting my second husband I had no shortage of male attention. I never slept with another man, though, until I met my second husband (who was at that time a lapsed Catholic)

    Well, I was weak, I was tempted and I gave in..I take full responsibility for that. If I had said “no” my husband would have accepted that. He is a good man!There was no coercion on his part.

    When we had marriage preparation with the local priest, he rightly pointed out that I was in a grave state of sin.. I knew this but still I could not stop. I loved my soon to be husband very much…

    As I look back, I shake my head in dismay. One knows not of what one is capable of sometimes until one is put to the test.

    I failed miserably.

    Getting back to fornication and forgiveness… I said in an earlier comment that if one repents then one is forgiven.

    If a man or woman had made mistakes in their life and were truly sorry for them, well, I think that it is much different to say, a person who has slept with many others and doesn’t see a problem with it.

    Btw, thankyou CAB for so eloquently and gently putting me in my place..

    I will pray (and I mean this) that you find a good and chaste woman with whom to share your life with. :)

  77. CAB January 18, 2011 at 8:00 pm #

    Kathy: I guess that I am just sick and tired of the way people treat one another..And their lack of love for God.

    Hard to blame you there.

    I will pray (and I mean this) that you find a good and chaste woman with whom to share your life with. :)

    Thank you; that’s very kind.

  78. E. Walsh January 19, 2011 at 12:19 am #

    I’ll risk repeating what others may have said. As a Christian male in my mid 30s, I’d like to meet a Christian virgin woman and marry her. I believe that we’ll pair bond the best that way.

    Rather than insisting on virginity, I’d accept someone who wasn’t a virgin but leads a self-controlled life and is aware of her sinful nature and need for a saviour. Just as I’m reminded of those need daily. It’s better to marry than to burn and I burn every day.

    Do I think I’ll court a virgin? Doubtful. I’m not 20 anymore and neither are they.

    Do I deserve a virgin because I’m one myself? No.

    Do I still value that highly in a woman? Yes, very much so. That said, if she has a haughty attitude towards responsible and temperate non-virgin women, I’ll pass. She’ll never be satisfied being with a saved sinner.

    Should she value virginity highly in me if she is not one? Yes.

    Does she deserve it in me? No.

    Some Christian women I’ve come across seem to think that their future beefcake hubby should be a virgin yet be an expert in sexual healing (to quote Marvin Gaye) on their wedding night. They thought they deserved such a man because they’d kept themselves “pure”. I just walked on.

  79. terry@breathinggrace January 19, 2011 at 10:38 am #

    I think wires got crossed here and I fear that once again, people are reading into comments things they want to see rather than what was really said.

    If a person had a “past” before they knew fornication was wrong and sinful, and they repent, turn to God, and live their lives accordingly, then we are to receive and respect them as joint heirs with Christ, not people to be shunned. As sinners ourselves, we should be particularly empathetic and supportive of them in thier new, chaste, lifestyle.

    This scenario categorizes a great many people as we live in a secular society where most young people are NOT taught that chastity is something to be valued. Christianity is a religion based on conversion. None of us are birn saints, and everyone has committed some sin in their life. Because your sin may be different from some else’s doesn’t make yours benign.

    Truth void of grace is useless. Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy, people. Y’all, being Christians, are supposed to know this.

  80. jack January 20, 2011 at 6:38 am #

    @jen

    “does being a virgin prove that?”

    No. But it is an excellent indication that she will be faithful.

    If the girl in question has previous experience being intimate with many men, then her intimate relationship with her husband will be diluted and less meaningful.

    ESPECIALLY if he has ever been intimate with a guy who really knew how to please her, in whatever way that might be.

    Previous sexual experience diminishes the “seriousness” of sex to anyone. The more you have, the less of a “big deal” it is.

    This is painful news to many women who thought that they could have a ‘little fun’ in college and then look for good husband material later.

    Very few people get to play both sides of the game and succeed.

  81. jack January 20, 2011 at 6:44 am #

    Kathy-

    Could you please explain then why so many Christian girls chase and eventually yield themselves sexually to high-statuts non-Christian men? Happens all the time.

    You are confusing how the world actually worls with how God want the world to work.

    I can’t even begin to count the number of Christian girls Iknew how gave it up for non-Christian men.

    So much for the idea that Christian girls value chastity in a guy. Secular girls value it even less.

  82. Wayfinder January 20, 2011 at 6:49 am #

    Maybe what we should really be discussing is not the degree to which men value virginity in women (or women in men) but the degree to which women value it in themselves.

    I’m not sure how much pressure young female virgins get, but I am aware of how much their male counterparts receive. Not good for anyone.

  83. cleared in hot January 20, 2011 at 7:11 am #

    @terry

    You are 100% correct.

    @jack

    You, too.

    This is painful news to many women who thought that they could have a ‘little fun’ in college and then look for good husband material later.

    And to their husbands, who forgive their past but find out that they still have to deal with this ongoing sexual/emotional baggage in their marriage nonetheless.

    Could you please explain then why so many Christian girls chase and eventually yield themselves sexually to high-status non-Christian men?

    Flipping through channels Monday night, I came across this new show In the Bedroom with Dr. Laura Berman and there was a couple with “issues” in their sex life (she no longer wanted to have any sex).

    The lady admitted that she grew up in a Christian home, with those values. She also admitted that in college she went into full-on conquest mode to chase down the “big fish on campus” (her now-husband) and that they were intimate from the very beginning of their dating relationship. She said she thought if she wasn’t giving it to him, he wouldn’t stay with her.

  84. jack January 20, 2011 at 11:21 am #

    “The lady admitted that she grew up in a Christian home, with those values. She also admitted that in college she went into full-on conquest mode to chase down the “big fish on campus” (her now-husband) and that they were intimate from the very beginning of their dating relationship. She said she thought if she wasn’t giving it to him, he wouldn’t stay with her.”

    I say a big SERVES ‘EM RIGHT to both of them.

    She went into unpaid-harlot mode and he thought he had won the jackpot.

    Their suffering is expected and deserved.

  85. Beta Betty January 20, 2011 at 3:35 pm #

    “Most people just don’t see a connection between their sex life and their spiritual life.”

    Most people are idiots. And? Most Christian idiots or Cafeteria Christians follow theology of the New Testament as thought it were somehow justifiably disected from the Old Testament.

  86. Beta Betty January 20, 2011 at 3:41 pm #

    Terry/breathinggrace has it right on the money.

  87. amyta November 5, 2011 at 10:43 am #

    is all a load of nonsense….listen – people lie (shocker i know) and catholic school girls are the super sluts…how do i know? i went to catholic school as a hindu. So when u marry u shud lie and hope to god ur man doesnt find out is the moral of the story. most christians are hypocrites anyway…

  88. Jennifer November 5, 2011 at 10:55 am #

    So are most Hindus liars too?

  89. Harry April 12, 2012 at 7:30 am #

    The hypocrisy here is so blatant it’s absurd.

    I am not sure if even 1/100 Christians in the US have any sense whatsoever. And you’ve proven just that.

    Thank God that one day you will be hunted down and slaughtered like the senseless, braindead animals that you hypocrites truly are.

  90. Harry April 12, 2012 at 7:38 am #

    Virginity was throughout Western History, a requirement upon marrying. It’s a requirement in most societies today still (even the most tribal ones). In the 60s you changed that here in the US — the most fundamental family dynamic that there is, that is meant to create a permanent bond — and wonder why nothing in this country now works liked it used to.

    Not only that, it’s common sense — not just a religious teaching to be and require a virgin only when you marry. On top of that, you’ve violated your most basic, most cornerstone family values in Christianity. So not only are you senseless, you’re beyond senseless hypocrites. And what happens when beyond senseless and unethical, dishonest hypocrites (lunatics) like you get the right to vote — who are they going to vote for? You think they are going to make responsible financial decisions like they made ‘responsible’ social ones by having pre-marital sex?

  91. Peter June 5, 2012 at 2:34 am #

    Harry, I like your second post.

    Please tell me more about yourself. Are you a Christian? Are you part of a church, group, or community who has control on the virginty issue?

    I am in search of such a church, group, or community. I live in Long Beach, California, and I can’t find people who think like me, to say the least. I am a real Christian virgin man at the young age of 44, and I am searching for a young virgin girl for holy matrimony. I prefer a Caucasian girl. Where can I find her? Those of us who believe the same should come together and unte, or we will perish!

    Those of us with

  92. Adrienne September 22, 2012 at 1:11 pm #

    Most Christian men whom I’ve dated would rather date a woman with some sexual experience. That is my experience. Nowadays most Christian men and women expect sexual intercourse in long-term relationships. There remains a small percent of people who plan to wait until marriage; but this is rare and considered strange even among people of faith. No longer is virginity a preferred state in modern society; but there remains a stigma around casual sex. Love, caring and sharing are important aspects of a sexual relationship.

  93. descriptivegrace April 25, 2013 at 8:33 pm #

    “Most Christian men whom I’ve dated would rather date a woman with some sexual experience.”

    Because they aren’t real Christians. They’re man-whores.

    I won’t even ask out a woman who I don’t know is a virgin; so I don’t date. Because how will you know? Not like you can assume that because she’s at church she’s a virgin, not nowdays.

  94. descriptivegrace April 25, 2013 at 8:52 pm #

    “There remains a small percent of people who plan to wait until marriage; but this is rare and considered strange even among people of faith.”

    This is true, and if you admit to being a 30 year old virgin, as I’m admitting right now, people will look at you funny. But this is the internet and I can’t see your funny looks. I will amend my earlier comment. I would date a woman who is not a virgin, if her husband died and she says he was the only man she ever slept with. Other than that, forget it. In my thinking, women who sleep around before marriage are likely to cheat on you. And, obviously, I’d prefer not to be compared to someone else.

  95. Samson J. April 29, 2013 at 10:41 am #

    This is true

    No, it isn’t. You Yanx need to figure out a better way of separating the sheep from the wolves.

  96. John December 10, 2013 at 2:15 am #

    We care if our shoes, car, flat screen is new. We care if our food is prepared fresh. But we don’t care if the woman we plan on spending the rest of our lives with and having children with is a virgin? There’s isn’t a man on this planet that would not love to marry a woman that has never known another man. There’s something very special about that. So much so that the Bible uses it to describe the Church. The Church will be presented to Christ as a Bride with no blemishes or spots. Society is trying to make light of something that is very sacred and very profound. When that virgin bride consummates her marriage with the act of sexual intimacy, there is something that goes on that’s very special. No man can ever claim her because that covenant was made with the blood of a virgin and only death can break that covenant. She bonds to her husband and her husband bonds to her. Every man that I have spoken with would love to find the right woman and that woman be a virgin. Our society has become so promiscuous and sexually immoral that we try and down play the importance of virginity and reduce it to nothing. Sex is the most intimate way to express ones love for out spouse, but we think it’s nothing. I feel like I was born to live in a different time. When people cared and had respect for these things. Our society has become obsessed with sex. How many women have become emotionally damaged before they even get married? Why? Because they had terrible experiences with other men that they were sexually involved with. We pretend that sex apart from marriage is okay and it only brings destruction, pain and shame. Sex outside of marriage is a sin and sin never brings nothing good with it. Blessed is the woman that walks that isle a virgin. We all make mistakes and two non virgin people marrying can be happy but the ideal thing is for both person to be virgin. Don’t rob your husband of that wonderful gift with someone that isn’t your husband. Save it for that man you will marry and have children with. The man you plan on spending the rest of your life with. Amen.

  97. John December 10, 2013 at 2:49 am #

    It really rubs me the wrong way when people that want to truly live the Christian life are called holier than though. Well if I’m living in accordance to the bible and your not, I guess I am holier than you. So what, what wrongs with that? The whole point of being a Christian is to walk as new creatures in Christ. It’s too to walk in the Spirit and not satisfy the desires of the flesh. Sin brings with it spiritual death. If we died to self and crucified the flesh with its desires we can live a holy life. We have the Holy Spirit that lives in our heart. God has not left us alone. We cannot walk in newness of life with our own strength. That’s why we must pray and fast. That’s why we must congregate, listen to preachings and study the bible. That’s why we must walk in obedience to God. Sexual immorality is a sin that brings with it shame, destruction and pain. We have so many dysfunctional people today because they play with sin and get burned. Sex outside of marriage brings disease, unwanted pregnancies and baggage into a marriage. The greatest act of love a woman can express to her husband is by giving him her virginity and consummating the marriage vow with a blood covenant. How beautiful. We are in the world but not of the world. Let’s not think like they do but rather renew the spirit of your mind with God’s word. How can we tell the world that Jesus can deliver us from sin but still walk in sin. Let’s not make excuses for our weaknesses and live like hypocrites. If the bible says we can do all things in Christ, then we can do all things in Christ, period. Don’t make excuses and hold everyone to such a low standard. There is power is this walk with Christ. God has given us power over sin. I pray that every woman will marry being a virgin. Amen.

  98. John December 10, 2013 at 2:59 am #

    If you’re truly born again and filled with the Spirit. You can do all things in Christ. There are so call Christians that have never been born again and that’s why they still live a life no different than the world. Read the book of Acts. That church had power and a testimony. We are the body of Christ. We can’t do whatever we want with this body and use grace as an excuse to continue sinning. Jesus says that fornication comes from the heart. It’s a heart issue. Get your heart right and you won’t fall into sexual sin. If Jesus said we can walk this Christian life, then we can! Let every man be a liar and God be true. We can conquer sin, yes we can. Thank God almighty.

  99. groupsman November 8, 2014 at 3:53 pm #

    @Kathy,
    I read your comments with interest:

    You said you never slept with a man until you met your 2nd husband (no judgement from me here, no worries).
    You admitted being weak & giving-in.

    Like you, in my wife & my marriage preparation with the church’s lay couple, they asked us if we were having sex. The other 2 couples in the sessions also answered affirmatively.
    The lay couple @ the Catholic church recommended we stop the sex & use the time to discover more about each other.

    I can’t say what the other 2 couples did, but we complied.
    Though we still slept in the same bed (clothed) during the weekends we dated (we lived 2 hours drive apart), I think my future wife respected me for not pressuring her.

    At the time, in our mid-30s, I was somewhat of a lapsed believer, not “so enthusiastic” about my faith as I had been in college, when Christian women didn’t seem to know I existed.
    Same with immediately after college & into my late 20s.
    Though I considered myself a “good Christian gentleman” who would never pressure a woman to do anything against her morals, I did get “hungry” & unfortunately, took advantage of a couple of “opportunities” @26, which I deeply regretted & immediately felt remorse over my sin.

    “….If I had said “no” my husband would have accepted that. He is a good man!There was no coercion on his part.”

    Kathy… that’s the way I did it with my future wife.
    I admit it was my idea to have sex with her 4 mos. into our dating relationship.
    I only asked if I could unbutton her shirt. I figured we could engage in some “everything…but” activity like I’d done with some other Christian women I dated in my late 20s. (Yes, I know that’s sinful too. I’m not perfect & had strong sexual desires in my late 20s).

    She asked if I wanted to make love with her. How could I answer that?

    “…I failed miserably…”

    So did we. We had a lot of sex when we dated, in our mid-30s.
    I do regret that but one must understand how when one goes A DECADE without any significant romantic relationships, a guy can get hungry…

    She is & was a Christian when we dated & stronger in her faith @ the time than I was.
    Neither of us were virgins when we met, but both of us had very low partner counts, which I preferred in the woman I wanted to marry.

    God’s grace is there & I’m so glad we are forgiven.

  100. groupsman November 8, 2014 at 4:14 pm #

    @Jack,
    I read with interest your comments to Kathy:
    “…Could you please explain then why so many Christian girls chase and eventually yield themselves sexually to high-statuts non-Christian men? Happens all the time.
    “…..I can’t even begin to count the number of Christian girls Iknew how gave it up for non-Christian men.
    “…..So much for the idea that Christian girls value chastity in a guy. Secular girls value it even less….”

    Jack, it disheartens me also.
    Here I was this new Christian first year of college. I truly wanted to be the man God wanted me to & desired a good Christian woman girlfriend I could turn into a wife.
    But… it was like I was “invisible” to the church girls I tried to date.
    Yes, I dated but rarely got 2nd or 3rd dates and it was even worse after college.

    Admit, I lost my virginity in high school before becoming a believe the next year in college, so I was very aware of what sin was & my sinful nature.

    Funny how I actually did better with dating when I was IN HIGH SCHOOL & not so concerned about a Christian girl’s morality than when I was what I considered a born-again “Christian gentleman” in college….

    It just killed me that I couldn’t land a relationship & had my first real adult relationship with an ALMOST FIANCE @26.

    Your observation about Christian women going for the “bad boys” & allowing the pagan fornicators & nonChristian men to get first crack @ the “innocence” instead of the Christian men they may later meet & marry is spot-on & is a big concern of mine now.
    In my early 50s, all these questions of why I did or didn’t do this or that, haunts me.

    Can only say you’re not the only one whose noticed that supposed “good Christian girls” going for the wrong type of men. It is a big regret & something I now suspect may have happened to me when I was this naive Christian man in my early 20s.

    If you’re an “older Christian virgin” wondering why you’re not in a relationship or married like many of your friends, the answer may well be not your doing, but due to the sinful choices many Christian women make….

  101. Frank Wunder November 11, 2014 at 9:26 pm #

    @groupsman

    The whole line about “stronger in her/his/their faith” is horse manure. Of course a person can be more morally disciplined than someone else if enough effort is made to follow through with the commitment.

    When I read comments such as yours I see the faulty ladder thinking that some people are farther up the ladder than others. Gotta work hard and do all sorts of self-sacrificial/moral flagellation if you wanna move on up.

    Since swallowing the red pill I give myself two options: I will remain celibate until I get married or I will die a virgin. There is no room for mess ups or mistakes. I refuse to fail. The choice to fail does not even exist. And if that makes me a strange, misguided person then so be it and if other Christians think that my attitude is awful or that my conduct is not ‘godly’ or spiritual enough for them, then I have no problem walking away.

    The whole lead by example paradigm has collapsed into silliness, especially when the so-called leaders are cowardly lions whipped by feminism and crowd pleasing into utter uselessness.

    More Christian men need to turn around and walk away and if that means a celibate life then so be it. There are too many enablers, too many wimps offering second chances and not enough men saying enough is enough.

    I’ve had enough and I am not going to compromise.

  102. PETER November 12, 2014 at 3:17 am #

    ATTENTION: To everybody who claims to care about and supports virginity; stop your BnW and DO something about it! We are called to be in the “world” but not be of the “world”, so STOP behaving like worldly people! Know that we cannot change the world but WE CAN RESTORE THE TRUE CHURCH! I can lead the way! However, this will require that you open yourselves to the TRUTH and this will require your FINANCIAL COMMITMENT! This is not impossible, but it will require ALOT of money! I will not sell you fake tickets to heaven, false promises, or false hope which never arrives! I shall produce real fruit which you can see and partake of while you still have the capacity to enjoy and while you are still alive! So, WHO is with me? Show me the amount of your commitment! Post your responses. If I see a good number of responses and a good amount of your commitment, I will then provide you with my contact information. God help us.

  103. Samuel Culpepper February 10, 2017 at 2:08 pm #

    Haley:

    You should read Genesis 2:24 carefully. Sex with a virgin is the consummation of marriage as illustrated by the first human marriage, that of Adam & Eve. The notion that marriage only exists after the state grants a license and some pastor performs a ceremony, is completely unsupported by the scriptures. So I disagree with your premise, but agree that all men want a virgin for a bride whether they will admit it or not. In fact taking a woman to “wife” after she has given her virginity to another man (marital consummation) is simply adultery. Yes that means that the vast majority of western so-called christians are in fact living in unrepentant adultery and therefore will not enter the kingdom of heaven (I Corinthians 6:9-10). Its a sad state that the apostate teachers have wrought, be not deceived by them Haley.

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