I previously shared a reader’s dilemma with a nerdy engineer who asked her via email for hot chocolate “next week.” Reader emailed back a “yes” qualified by many mentions of friends and doing things as a group. Commenters duked it out with competing advice.
All of those with any investment in Reader’s boy problems will be happy to know that said email did not destroy NCEG and that he seems to have gotten the message. Reader wrote me:
I saw the “NCEG” with a few people last night, and he did not appear hurt, but nor did he mention hot chocolate again or really speak to me one-on-one (as he has in the past)! I feel like he may have still been looking at me admiringly though–I can’t be sure! And he offered to drive me home, which is in the opposite direction of where he lives. At first I said no, but then someone else decided to get a ride with him, so I went along. Hm. I’m hoping the right message has been sent!
“Let your ‘yes’ be ‘yes’ and your ‘no’ be ‘no'”? Is NCEG still smitten and plotting future email invitations for hot chocolate? You decide.
Haley's Halo 
Man this is painful to read. I was NCEG many years ago. So he offered her a lift home which is in the opposite direction to his place. She waffles then accepts. He’s still into her, and she likes the attention by getting into his car. Expect future invitations.
HH do you know NCEG? Maybe you could send some helpful game tips his way.
Roissy’s post from yesterday included a study that showed that for women feeling friendly with a guy actually REDUCED her tendency towards exclusivity – while for men friendly feelings increased exclusivity.
Guys like NCEG need to realize just how counterproductive their behaviour is and how easy it is to change it.
*Phew* – possible human contact with socially embarrassing dude avoided. Another victory for vanity and cowardice. Now where’s that guy all the other girls like…
It’s probably unclear to him whether this is a rejection of his personal male alphadom level or simply that his invitation didn’t fit her courtship methodology and Christianity requirement. He will probably assume the latter. Which is a good thing.
The smug arrogance of this miserable excuse for a human being makes me sick.
Accepting a ride while hoping the ‘right message’ has been sent?
This girl is despicable.
lol wtf jack. the decency with which Christian girls comport themselves, particularly including handling rejections, is a major selling point.
He’s safely in LJBF territory. Poor guy needs to learn some game. A tiny bit of teasing followed up with just a touch of aloofness would get him so far.
Anyone else think the girl seems to be doing a little too much thinking about a guy that she supposedly doesn’t want?
Kudos for the guy! He played it exactly as I would have advised. No big deal that she didn’t want to go out. No need to be mad at her or reject her (that shows insecurity.) Offer the ride, just like he’s offering it to others… not because she’s the love of his life, but because that’s the kind of guy he is.
Hopefully, he really is moving on and when she decides she wants to go out with him after all, he will already be happily with another girl and she’ll kick herself for letting him get away.
Score 2 for the not-so-socially-inept engineer.
MW called this one. Neither of them have taken any hints.
Was it another girl who accepted the ride, causing our sister to change her “no” to yes”? Maybe the guy has more “game” than toz is giving him credit for.
As I have stated many times before, JD, I have received the worst treatment from my “sisters in Christ”.
To the extent that I wonder why I keep looking for a Christian girl – I may do better with a converted pagan.
MW–
I don’t know NCEG.
Toz–
I asked Reader for a follow-up.
OTOH, Yvette might be onto something. If he wised up and is blase about the whole thing, much better. But I doubt it.
Then Toz has a point too: “He’s safely in LJBF territory. Poor guy needs to learn some game. A tiny bit of teasing followed up with just a touch of aloofness would get him so far.”
I’d advise him to go this route.
“Anyone else think the girl seems to be doing a little too much thinking about a guy that she supposedly doesn’t want?”
Run little hamster, run! He’ll get under her skin even more if he plays it cool and nonchalant, while seasoning it with a pinch of friendly teasing.
Good stuff Hales. I like that you post reader emails for advice; taking a page out of Roissy’s book.
Keep it up.
One more point: Anyone know why engineers have the geeky/nerdy rap down your way? Maybe it’s the more techie kind: software/biomedical etc.
They’ve never had that stereotype up my way. Round here, most of them are the smart, athletic, garrulous type. Lots of partying and prank pulling like suspending a car from one of the main bridges in town in the middle of the night. Especially the mech/structural/civil guys. The mining and geotech guys have a kickass hockey team.
MW: Are you at UBC? The engineers here are definitely hard partiers, but of the “nerds away from home for the first time” variety, in my opinion. Kinesiology students they are not.
Reader never said why she isn’t into NCEG. Is it looks, personality, seems incompatible? If it were say, just that he’s not Christian, mostly people here would find that a 100% ok reason.
MW: yes. I just finished an eng grad program. I was surprised at how un-nerdy and omega most of the engineering students are. I was probably the most socially awkward one. Probably the serious hardcore introverts have moved to computer science and software. It could just be that it’s a decently ranked school, at least for BME. Maybe going down the ladder things get worse.
I was also amazed by how many just beautiful girls were in engineering, especially undergraduates. It’s enough to convince me that part of the variation in intelligence and attractiveness is caused by some underlying fitness factor.
Mining engineering and geology are a different story though (socially). I’ll agree with you there.
rob–
From Reader’s original email, which I posted in the previous blog post on this:
“He’s a nerdy engineering type who apparently graduated at the top of his class, but socially he acts younger than he is/doesn’t have very good verbal communication skills. I do like him as a person, but I don’t think we even communicate well enough to be actual friends!”
“[H]e seems to have gotten the message.”
Ummm… no, he hasn’t. A bunch of people reading about this at leisure can figure out that she’s sent a detectable message (She let him drive her home, but only after someone else came along too!) but she can’t fairly claim to have gotten her message across.
She was doing fine when she refused the ride, but then gave him room to misunderstand in a way he’s clearly inclined to do — if he were quick on the uptake he wouldn’t have asked to drive her home after their last exchange.
Our 20something thinks she’s done the right thing if she’s managed to shift the blame for his ultimate disappointment to him. That’s not the same thing as telling him what he needs to know.
I’m getting gongs and cymbals here.
OK, I’ll bite: Is everyone here Canadian? LLL, ASDF, MW, apparently.
Maybe even Haley: there are 3 million of us in California.
Old Guy–
I’m not Canadian, but this blog does seem to attract a lot of commenters from the Great White North, eh.
Modern Guy – LMAO
“He’s still into her, and she likes the attention by getting into his car. Expect future invitations.” – exactly! Do not reward behaviours you do not want to increase: accepting the ride was selfish; it benefits her and not the nice guy. [Unless as y81 says this was to protect her sister from a one on one car ride with a stranger male, in which case that’s just safety speaking]
I’m with Jack – this is smug arrogance at best, and with Toz – shes doing a lot of agonizing and maintaining contact and seems unclear on her feelings. Could her rejection just be a sh*t test?
[p.s. Jack sorry about your experiences :( with Christian women.]
The biggest mistake Christian women make is succumb to the pressure to be ‘nice girls’ to the extent that we misrepresent/are untruthful about ourselves and our feelings in an attempt to save others grief. This MAGNIFIES grief, rather than saving it. This girl just did a takeaway – by denying and then accepting the ride – which will increase his interest. ugh.
Back to square one, and then some! Just be honest, chickita!
Canadian? yah!
Normally, I would say FriendZone for our hapless engineer. However, the element of faith and the accompanying strong social expectations that the young woman is dealing with certainly complicates matters.
Please, keep us all updated. This is becoming quite the learning experience for me.
Thanks!
[Unless as y81 says this was to protect her sister from a one on one car ride with a stranger male, in which case that’s just safety speaking]
That’s not what I meant. I suspect that sister Reader became jealous, or at least competitive, when NCEG offered another girl a ride. I doubt very much that she was worried about the other girl’s safety from NCEG’s physical overtures, or the other girl’s susceptibility to NCEG’s romantic blandishments.
For the record:
The other passenger in NCEG’s car was a MALE.
PICTURES! Or pictures of people who look similar whom you found on google images.
Hmm, well, my speculation was incorrect. But I’m still rooting for NCEG. Mutabile semper est femina. The important thing for him is to keep his options open, which, given the m/f ratio in every church I’ve ever attended, shouldn’t be that hard. When the other girls in the FG see him giving sister Reader a ride home, they’ll probably start wondering, “Why isn’t he giving me a ride?”
ASDF: No I’m not at UBC. But I was thinking of that department. Same with many other departments across the land. It’s a noble tradition dating back over a century.
Mining guys and geos, you got it ;) ! Had many good times with those guys and girls. Ever go to Roundup? Plenty of eccentrics but hardly any nerdy/awkward types.
Rob: Glad you had a pleasant surprise in your Eng. department. Recently I’ve seen that the Geos are split about 50/50 M/F. Lots of attractive women, and most are pretty cool. Drama queens can’t hack the teamwork required for fieldwork and camp life. So refreshing.
Awaiting the followup, Haley.
Jack, you should try to find a Christian girl who was not raised in a Christian home. Or maybe one from the Northeast, where being one is practically illegal and very socially unacceptable. That way you know she is for real, and she is less likely to have a female Christian rationalization hamster, which is slightly different from a typical hamster in that this hamster helps the female rationalize away her Christianity for convenience’s sake.
Also, you know why so many women are going into engineering now? Because they dumbed down the curricula!!! (AACK runs from flying objects).
BTW I am female and I am an engineer. So shut up already.
MW:
Yeah, I went to Roundup this year. Where you there? One of the event nights was full of chicks; it really threw me for a loop.
ASDF, I was volunteering for the shourt courses and awards dinner. I didn’t have much time to wander the booths though.
In what capacity were you there?
Could only make it to Alaska night, the tamest one. Bummer. Been to the others in years past, heaps o’ fun! Best thing, it’s all gratis. :D
helvetica: Christian hamsters are worse than heathen ones, because the “spiritual” coefficient logarithmically magnifies the screeching moral outrage and shaming language.
“BTW I am female and I am an engineer. So shut up already.” Keep your PDE’s far away from me.
ASDF I almost forgot, Roundup brings out both kinds of gold-diggers. Watch yourself, young skywalker!
Even in the first entry the thought crossed my mind that perhaps she likes him more than she is letting on.
MW: I went to an engineering school in the mountain west and in retrospect we were mostly betas. From what I’ve observed of engineers, they mostly become beta providers.
Although I with it by time I was done, I was darn proud of that bachelors in ME. A few years in the working world have taught me that its just a ticket. These days I resent the fact that I worked so hard to get A’s when B’s and C’s would have got me the same ticket. Much of the actual content of the degree was a waste of time.
In the working world engineers continue to do the same thing. They work hard in hopes of getting to the top. They continue to put long hours in but refuse to commit to any risk. The alphas are making a few tough decisions, battling some issues, telling the boss to shove it and sneaking home early.
Engineers are nearly all betas. I am included in these ranks but I feel like since I’ve been enlightened to it and no longer proud of it, I at least know which way to grow.
MW:
I was there in a free drinks capacity. I went to BC Night, which was like a highschool dance but with beer kegs. Lots of fun. I was also at Alaska night, which was pretty tame, as you mentioned. It’s funny that we probably saw each other. I couldn’t make it to the actual show though.
I also didn’t see any gold-diggers. Too bad.
Wow. Women are evil.
Girl engineers are hot, hot , HOT!
Talk nerdy to me, baby!
I’ve always wanted to have a makeout session with girl who wears taped-up black plastic rimmed glasses.
Wow – did I say that out loud?
Anyway, nerdy girls are the hawtest of all girls. Bar none. Especially if they are eeeeever so slightly socially awkward.
Rrrrrrr…..
Rob: Glad you had a pleasant surprise in your Eng. department. Recently I’ve seen that the Geos are split about 50/50 M/F. Lots of attractive women, and most are pretty cool.
Wasn’t that great for me. I’m very creepy, so I try to avoid women irl.
ASDF: there were quite a few gold-diggers at AK night. They really stand out from the regular geobabes. Small world, Roundup! No doubt we did cross paths as such. Best of luck at UBC. Are you in engineering or geology?
Jack: You sound happy for once. That’s good! They do have their charms that’s for sure, but some take a long time to lighten up. For the studious awkward types, I’d try the chem, math or comp sci departments at UBC or SFU. But she won’t be Jessica or Ashley from Dallas but Jelena from Serbia or Grace from Hong Kong. If you’re lucky, Hiro from Japan. Minus the hipster glasses. Hope you can deal with that.
Rob: I highly doubt it. But if you are as you say, way to hamstring yourself. Not hard to start over.
Y81: 10-4!
@helvetica,
As a Catholic male ME, I think your advice is good. Also your wit and female deprecating humor speaks highly of your worth. Good men can see aspects of men laugh at men. Good women can see aspects of women and laugh at women.
Finding out that so many commenters here are engineers certainly explains the quality of some of the commentary.
MW:
I am done at UBC, and work in the finance side of the mining industry. So I was at Roundup, but I was not of Roundup. Are you a Geo?
Earlier this week we were having a discussion at Alte’s Blog about higher IQ and people closer to the autism side of the spectrum. (Social misfits)
Obsidian said, “Yes, game is kind of guideline to navigate with women, especially if it is not intuitive for you, being brainwashed by feminism etc. So basically you use strategies and try to build a logic upon it. It is a bit like IBM’s Watson: It is not the way a socially talented person would approach it but it may be more successful to achieve some objective.
Alte replied, “It’s more universally successful, I think. Natural talents are using Game as an art, while learned talents are using it as a science. The science is more successfully repeatable, but the art comes easily and doesn’t require as much practice.”
I think the “regular” people just live life but some “geeks” study life, try to makes sense of interactions and study it as a science. Hence the appeal of “Game” to geeks.
But accepting and understanding Game, requires generalizing and adjusting it to an individual. Men (especially geeks) are good at this type of thinking. Women tend toward personalization and often refute anyone trying to generalize or propose things are generally true. Such women profess to be “special snowflakes” because they believe that since nothing is true for everyone, then typical things could not be applicable to them. (The whole NAWALT thing.)
Haley, you approach relationships as a “how to” which is basically scientific and a generalization, so you attract the geeks to your blog. How many times have all of us seen the friends first vs. attraction first discussion in Christian circles? Some people just don’t get it, because the concepts of LJBF, initial attraction or “disinterested” friendship are not understood.
Attraction happens or should happen before marriage since life is not about checklists. But attraction is 99% precluded in LJBF or if a guy tries to befriend a woman in the hope of making it more.
The other thing is geeks can drive regular people nuts because geeks think about stuff like this and then even want to talk about it.
“The other thing is geeks can drive regular people nuts because geeks think about stuff like this and then even want to talk about it.”
Most people are loath to examine what’s really going on and what drives their desires. Most people just can’t take the truth.
Oh wow – poor guy! She is totally sending him mixed messages. If she wants nothing to do with him, she shouldn’t have accepted his offer of a ride. He is clearly into her and she is not, so she needs to be straight with him and stop giving him false hope by being friendly.
“Oh wow – poor guy! She is totally sending him mixed messages. If she wants nothing to do with him, she shouldn’t have accepted his offer of a ride. He is clearly into her and she is not, so she needs to be straight with him and stop giving him false hope by being friendly.”
We know how this story will end. He’ll continue to make approaches in both bold and subtle ways. She’ll pass up multiple opportunities to give him a firm ‘no.’ Then she’ll have to give him a pyrotechnic rejection, say she had no idea why he was acting this way and her gaggle will label him a creepy stalker.
Badger:
“We know how this story will end. He’ll continue to make approaches in both bold and subtle ways. She’ll pass up multiple opportunities to give him a firm ‘no.’ Then she’ll have to give him a pyrotechnic rejection, say she had no idea why he was acting this way and her gaggle will label him a creepy stalker.”
So true man, you nailed it. Seen it many times. No personal responsibility on her part. I’d expect nothing more from a non Christian, but would expect a Christian girl to set things straight. Many well intentioned men are nervous and awkward around women, especially when they are younger. It’s not their fault that they are not masters of understanding the intricacies of the female psyche at 21. No one tought them this, so how can you expect it? In snowflake’s mind and/or nethers, good character but no ‘game’ renders him a creepy looooser. He’s probably not going to be the smooth operator she expects him to be.
ASDF:
No I’m not a geo but I’m still peripherally related to it. We should grab brewskis sometime and compare notes.
““Oh wow – poor guy! She is totally sending him mixed messages. If she wants nothing to do with him, she shouldn’t have accepted his offer of a ride. He is clearly into her and she is not, so she needs to be straight with him and stop giving him false hope by being friendly.””
We have a winner.
“So true man, you nailed it. Seen it many times. No personal responsibility on her part. I’d expect nothing more from a non Christian, but would expect a Christian girl to set things straight. Many well intentioned men are nervous and awkward around women, especially when they are younger. It’s not their fault that they are not masters of understanding the intricacies of the female psyche at 21. No one tought them this, so how can you expect it? In snowflake’s mind and/or nethers, good character but no ‘game’ renders him a creepy looooser. He’s probably not going to be the smooth operator she expects him to be.”
I’m to the point where I’m starting to tell just about every single-guy I know about game and how to come up to speed – religious, nonreligious, nice guys, cads, whatever. There’s just no frickin’ reason to hold on to these antiquated wannabe-chivalric dating ideas that push women away, and no reason to let young men believe stupid pretty lies about the female mind and not know how to read their mixed signals. It literally ruins lives, when decent men can’t get the comfort of a woman’s companionship.
If a good guy is going to use game to land a woman and thus take her out of the market before some Roissyesque cad can talk her pants off, isn’t that a net positive?