First date tips for dudes.

20 Feb

A male reader wrote me to describe a recent date that he went on.  He thought it went great and noted the various IOIs she sent out, but when (four days later) he asked her to go out again, she shut him down with the “we didn’t click” excuse.  I have a feeling he’s not the only dude out there who’s experienced this very scenario, so here are my (expanded-upon) thoughts that I sent him about common first date dealbreakers that men often unknowingly fall prey to – especially when they are trying to apply game and maintain alpha frame.

Before I get into these things, men should keep in mind that while all women are the “same” in that they all have a certain set of emotional needs and desires, not all women are going to respond to the same strength of tactics.  Women who are used to attracting a lot of male attention (whether they’re beautiful or just kind of slutty) need harder game run on them than women who are shy, conservative, and/or don’t go on very many dates.  Bar kittens and unadventurous, dutiful church girls are a chasm apart in terms of what will get a positive response out of them.  Bar kittens usually need to be taken down a peg, whereas church girls need to be reassured that you have honorable intentions (well, unless you assume the role of supplicating beta).  They both want male leadership and confidence, but the way in which those qualities should manifest themselves is going to be different depending on the girl.  Also, a certain amount of what works on any girl is going to depend on the girl herself.  This is where having some social intuition comes in.  Just as there’s no one approach that works on every single girl, not every single church girl is going to respond to exactly the same game, either.

Okay, with that out of the way – here are some basics.  Yes, I know, NAWALT, so there will always be some exceptions to what I’m about to say.  You may have bumped up against one.  But by and large, especially when dealing with “good church girls,” the following hold true.

(1) Always pay. If she was the one who asked you out, offer to pay anyway.  It may sound petty, but not paying on the first date, unless the woman insisted on going dutch beforehand, is a dealbreaker.  (Even then, you should still offer to pay.)  If the woman liked you a lot and you didn’t pay, her friends will still tell her that you’re a loser for not paying, so no matter what, the well will be poisoned against you.  So just suck it up that you’ll have to pay.

Note:  EVEN IF THE WOMAN OFFERS TO PAY, YOU MUST STILL INSIST ON PAYING. In your head you may think, “Oh, she’s being fair and modern,” but ten bucks says that a church girl (and pretty much every other girl with a drop of femininity in her) will secretly be offended that you permitted her to pay and did not put up genuine resistance.  (However, if she keeps fighting you on it, let her.  But then cheekily tease her about being a feminist if she does pay.)

(2) At the end of the night, say you had a good time – IF you genuinely had a good time. Otherwise, just thank her for the chance to meet her, get to know her, and spend some time with her.  I don’t think it’s absolutely necessary to tell her that you’ll call or that you should hang out again sometime – it’s too easy for men to say that and then not call or not ask for another date, which exasperates women.**  It’s better not to create expectations that can easily be dashed.  (But if you really do want to see her again, it’s fine to say that you should go out again.  If the girl isn’t interested, she’ll probably give a nebulous response like “Yeah, maybe sometime.”) Also, I don’t think it’s a good idea to ask for another date immediately at the end of the first date.  I’ve had this happen before, and it really puts the woman on the spot if she’s not sure if she’s attracted to you.  (**Roissy-style players can use exasperation to their advantage, because if you stiff her on a phone call, she will definitely have you on her Ish List and will be more likely to respond when you do finally call.  But that only works if you generated enough attraction in the first place.)

(3) It’s important to be respectfully playful. Gentle teasing works well on most women. Strength of any teasing/negs must be in proportion to how much romantic male attention the woman is used to getting.  Also, the teasing needs to be OBVIOUS.  Sometimes guys play teasing too deadpan, and the girl can’t tell if he actually means it or not and may feel insulted.  (Of course, sometimes it’s just that the girl has no sense of humor, which is something that’s outside of your control.)  A little bit of playfulness can go a long way in reassuring the woman that you’re safe to be with, have a good sense of humor, and aren’t overly invested in the success of the date.  Too often men fall into the trap of treating a date like a job interview, where she’s the boss they’re trying to impress, and they start trying to be walking encyclopedias about every topic they discuss.  It’s too business-like, doesn’t focus on the woman enough, and can even be alienating if the woman doesn’t have any interest in the topic.  So injecting a little playfulness into the date can alleviate a lot of the seriousness that sometimes occurs when men are trying hard to impress.

(4) Sometimes there just isn’t any chemistry. You can both be nice people but just have nothing to say to each other.  It’s not a failure on either part when that happens.  Don’t feel bad that you couldn’t squeeze blood from a stone.

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67 Responses to “First date tips for dudes.”

  1. modernguy February 20, 2011 at 10:04 pm #

    The only thing that matters is if you’re what she’s looking for, or if the impression you give makes her think you’re what she’s looking for. If it’s casual sex you have to be good looking, if it’s a church girl and you want sex, it has to be marriage, and if it’s in between where most girls are, all you need is charm.

  2. Miss365 February 21, 2011 at 3:04 am #

    Agree with all of these. I like time to wonder if there is going to be a second date, I like offering to pay and be the independent woman that I am ( after all I have a mortgage ) but I love it when a guy wants to pay for my dinner, coffee or concert ticket. It makes me feel special :)

    Please don’t treat our first date like a job interview. I don’t need you to list off how wonderful you are, tell me about your life but a little humility goes a long way! Have some faith that you don’t have to inform me how great you are – I’ll hopefully work it out for myself – if you are that is ;)

    Chemistry doesn’t always happen on a first date though. It usually takes me a couple of dates to not be as guarded.

    :)

  3. Workshy Joe February 21, 2011 at 3:41 am #

    Its definitely a case of “play it by ear”.

  4. Toz February 21, 2011 at 4:30 am #

    2 and 3 are no-brainers. 4 is something that as a guy, you should be able to do if you learn a little game. The best advice I’ve heard in this regard is ask her questions about herself and then tell her why that’s awesome. More points for teasing in between for the “push-pull” effect. In other words, talk about her. Every girl likes to talk about herself. Actually, that’s true for everybody.

    1 goes both ways. If the girl doesn’t at least offer some token resistance to having the meal paid for, that sends up red flags. Another reason why the first date should be short and cheap.

  5. yvettefrancino February 21, 2011 at 6:23 am #

    I agree with all of these. Exactly things that would make a first date good and (if that chemistry existed.. in which there would be a good chance if I was going out in the first place) would probably want a second date.

    I’m going to have to check out this Roissy theory, though. Sounds like I would not agree with it. A deal-breaker for me would be lack of respect. If the guy did anything disrespectful, I wouldn’t want to go out with him.

    Oh.. and end of the night? Never hand-shake, even if you’re not interested. Always at least a hug. If there’s chemistry, one kiss (no tongue) goodnight with a gentle teaser of more to come.

  6. Hermes February 21, 2011 at 7:11 am #

    .(1) Always pay

    Even if you’re a starving student?

    Sometimes guys play teasing too deadpan, and the girl can’t tell if he actually means it or not and may feel insulted.</blockquote
    I was at a party over the weekend where my response to a (homescshooled, conservative Christian) girl's making fun of a slip-up in my speech was to toss an empty beer can at her. Her reaction told me that was a bit too deadpan.

  7. Hermes February 21, 2011 at 7:12 am #

    I wish WordPress had comment previewing.

  8. Anonymous February 21, 2011 at 7:35 am #

    Being the man referred to, it is only fair to note that we met up at an art gallery where the main exhibit was a whole floor filled almost entirely with nude drawings, by a major artist it is true, but still a bunch of nudes. I wasn’t expecting that, but gamely soldiered on, thinking that to act embarrassed or awkward would just make things worse. And she did not seem embarrassed. The follow up email I got from her mentioned both how she was uncomfortable with the exhibit, how she never felt really comfortable with me. If within 20 min or so of meeting for the first time you take her somewhere where she feels awkward, it may not matter how good your conversation is or how much you make her laugh.

    I think we often underestimate how much Christian girls absolutely loathe pornography. Now I don’t consider the exhibit porn, but I can see how a church girl would think it close enough.

    Lesson learned.

  9. lifeinlonglegs February 21, 2011 at 8:22 am #

    Well done Haley.

  10. Aunt Haley February 21, 2011 at 10:09 am #

    Toz–
    I don’t think token resistance to the man paying is necessary. Women should humbly thank the man for paying, but token resistance is disingenuous and fake and I’d rather women not feel they need to do that just to prove to the man that they have character. (Oh, the irony.)

    Hermes–
    Even if you’re a starving student, you must pay. So budget and plan accordingly.

    Anon–
    It’s always a good idea to avoid anything involving sex or nudity early on. Honestly, though, I think almost anything can be worked through or overlooked if there is enough attraction. This girl just wasn’t attracted to you and made herself endure an uncomfortable date because she didn’t speak up.

  11. ASDF February 21, 2011 at 10:09 am #

    See, reason number 2 why coffee dates are the best first dates: Because women, who enjoy voting and earning as much money as men do still expect men to shell out their hard-earned dollars for the pleasure of their company. So you spend 3 bucks on the first date on them, and then by the second date they will be ready to go dutch on something bigger.

  12. Augustine DeCarthage February 21, 2011 at 10:27 am #

    “Bar kittens usually need to be taken down a peg, whereas church girls need to be reassured that you have honorable intentions.”

    I disagree. Church girls often need to be taken down a peg, and a man should leave them guessing about his intentions.

  13. Anonymous February 21, 2011 at 10:33 am #

    made herself endure an uncomfortable date because she didn’t speak up.

    For almost 3 hours!!!? With a venue change in the middle that was the perfect opportunity for her to duck out.

  14. y81 February 21, 2011 at 10:42 am #

    If you are a starving student, find something free to do on campus, like a student art exhibit (preferably not involving nudes, I guess) or poetry reading or some such.

  15. Anonymous February 21, 2011 at 10:53 am #

    Church girls often need to be taken down a peg

    a man should leave them guessing about his intentions.

    Church girls are generally pretty straighforward with you, so you should be straightforward with them. Using hardcore gaming tactics on them is unnecessary and more likely than not will backfire on you.

  16. Aunt Haley February 21, 2011 at 11:48 am #

    ASDF–
    Because women, who enjoy voting and earning as much money as men do still expect men to shell out their hard-earned dollars for the pleasure of their company.

    Well, what do you think marriage is?!

    So you spend 3 bucks on the first date on them, and then by the second date they will be ready to go dutch on something bigger.

    What a great attitude to have! “Hey, I already spent three bucks on you for the first hour. Now you’re on your own if you want to spend any more time with me!”

  17. ASDF February 21, 2011 at 12:24 pm #

    Well, what do you think marriage is?!

    In marriage, it has already been established who is going to be doing what. If a woman is cooking and cleaning and having babies, then yes, obviously the husband would take her out to dinner. But on a first date? Why is it on the potential husband to prove himself? How about you invite me over for a home-cooked meal instead? You would be demonstrating cooking skills, subservience, and frugality; all qualities a prospective wife should be interested in conveying.

    What a great attitude to have! “Hey, I already spent three bucks on you for the first hour. Now you’re on your own if you want to spend any more time with me!”

    I could very easily turn that around: “You only spent 3 dollars on me for the first hour, and now you’re not going to buy me anything to hang out with you some more? Forget it, loser!”

    If the girl has a job, she should go dutch. Why is it cheap to point out that in a society that is supposedly of equals, women choose to retain the one vestige of chivalry and patriarchy that works out in their favour?

  18. random beta February 21, 2011 at 6:55 pm #

    Aspiring suitors would do well to keep the following in mind. women are all posessed of a specific set of unspoken expectations.

    as far as she’s concerned generating interest is your job! generating interest is like inflating a life raft, with only your breath. it is time consuming, and exhausting, literally, and she is looking for any and every chance to deflate it. that’s her job, to make it difficult for you to land her. she wants to run, she wants you to chase her. and you better enjoy it. if you get frustrated, tired, lose heart, or stumble awkwardly, it’s automatic fail. She feels absolutely no sense of responsibility or duty to help you out. She’s done her part by being attractive enough for you to ask out. i write this because it’s infuriating, but if you don’t get it, you can’t win.

    Polite can’t win, it’s too soft, and you can’t be too rough, that will fail too. It must be said that women are so much like cats it’s hilarious. you don’t get points for respecting her boundaries, that’s a test too! if you don’t have the balls to cross that line, then you don’t deserve her.

    Remember, women will not respect you for your character, but only because you can turn her on. So don’t even bring that stuff to the table. men will respect you for who you are, your character, your drive. To a woman all that stuff is like as appealing as rotten cabbage.

    All of this is more true of christian women than non christian women, because christian women actually beleive that they are a “gift from god!” a real genuine princess and deserve the worlds single greatest man. She has not even a scintila of honest self insection or humility.

    It burns me to admit it, but it’s true. Women want a show. you are competing against movie, tv, and rom nov characters, as well as every guy that’s hit on her in her whole life. It’s like balling, go big, or go home! you gots to bring it son! you may look at a peacock and think to yourself, that strutting about and like some damn bird is humiliating and degrading, which it is, but that doesn’t matter, to get the reaction that a woman wants, you must dance! dance monkey dance!

    you may have received some misinformation in your youth that went something like, “women will be drawn to your humility, sincerity, honesty, integrity, and character,” or “cultivate a friendship, and love will naturally blossom!” or worst of all, “just be yourself.” lies! all of it! one-hundred percent, pure, undadulturated rot! Women have been pushing those lines on suckas since the dawn of time. Her addoring affection is about the same as she feels for a puppy of baby…except you’re not as cute. Being valued as a friend means you are not sexually dangerous, worse, you are attainable.

    Women do not want you, you are boring, attainable, and real. She has about as much interest in good qualities as you do in raw spinach. sure it’s healthy, but who da fuck wants healthy? i know i don’t. and just as i know that all attractive are secretly maniacle clucking bitch hens, i still get hard just lookin’ at em.

    so try it. maybe work up to it with a friend, start teasing. Start acting like you are the sexually confident spawn of satan that you swore you’d never stoop to allowing yourself to become, because it works. it only costs you your soul – joke – but it works, for as long as you keep it up.

    remember, you are the show. times have changed. women will never develope sexual feelings for someone who can’t pull off daring, witty, confident player, even if it is just pretend, as long as it’s convincing.

    it’s easy to get a woman to love for who you are, as long as you are willing to and capable of, becoming exactly the kind of guy, or at least acting like him in a convincing fashion.

  19. Anonymous February 21, 2011 at 7:27 pm #

    All of this is more true of christian women than non christian women, because christian women actually beleive that they are a “gift from god!” a real genuine princess and deserve the worlds single greatest man. She has not even a scintila of honest self insection or humility.

    Partly true. Christian women do have high standards. But they are difficult because they want you to be both sexy and of good character, not because they don’t care about good character.

  20. Augustine DeCarthage February 21, 2011 at 10:15 pm #

    “Church girls are generally pretty straighforward with you, so you should be straightforward with them.”

    Anonymous, babygirl, read what you just wrote again. You stand by that?

  21. Mr. Hook February 21, 2011 at 10:20 pm #

    Tip #1 is a non-starter for me. Any girl that expects me to “always pay” for a first date is someone still hung-up on a code of chivalry that no longer exists. As far as I’m concerned, it’s women who expect men to pay on the first date need to be taken down a notch, “church girls” especially. ;-)

  22. cathydinas February 21, 2011 at 10:21 pm #

    I recently went on a 2nd date with a guy I am very interested in but we had the abstanence talk on out 1st date…just to clear the are and let him know i wasn’t going to be a tease/ leading him on. Our first date we went hiking and to the farmers market– he lives across the Bridge from me in SF and I in Oakland and he rented a car that day and spent the day with me in Oakland. For our 2nd date I bought us tickets to see the Warriors game (aprox. 80 for the 2 tickets) equivalent to what he would have spent on the ZipCar rental for the day. At the game though– we got out seats upgraded twice– after the game he offered to pay for his ticket and I told him it was my treat. We went out for dessert afterwards and I didn’t offer to pay but I wanted to, when we shared a cab home from the resturant (the 2nd time he didnt rent a car because it was easier to get to the arena by train) I forgot to pay my fare… He gave me a good night high & kiss on the cheek.
    A few days later I sent him an email suggesting I take him out for his birthday…coming in March (I wanted to treat) and he said that that would be too generious and he would actually want to treat me. I told him I didnt have a problem with that but we have to remember we’re celebrating him!

    I think relationships and dates starting off are give and take… you have to find a nice balance– I’ll br bringing dessert to dinner but should I forget I will definetly have them split them off from the check so I can pay for it.

  23. ASDF February 22, 2011 at 7:51 am #

    Girls: Take a page out of Cathy’s book. What a refreshing attitude.

  24. modernguy February 22, 2011 at 8:09 am #

    The funny thing about women is that actually there is nothing special about them individually and they have very little to offer beyond sex. Most of the unique and creative personalities in history have been men, yet this idiotic chase goes on. And the more vacuous and vain women become the more coy and demanding they become.

  25. Toz February 22, 2011 at 8:09 am #

    Haley – Generally, if the girl just lets the bill go and have the guy pay, that’s a red flag that she’s got princess syndrome. By token resistance, I don’t mean speak up knowing that the guy will pay anyway. I actually mean, be ready to pay half and offer to.

    The big thing guys want to screen for is outsized expectations. Not offering to at least pay her share is an indicator of having them.

  26. Aunt Haley February 22, 2011 at 8:17 am #

    Toz–
    Well, I’ll be sure to order only water in the future so as not to give off entitlement princess syndrome if a man takes the initiative to invite me somewhere where there is food.

    modernguy–
    From the bottom of my heart, thank you for gracing my pitiful blog with your magnanimous presence. Thank you for spending time here and sharing your creativity and uniqueness when I, like all other women, possess nothing of value but a vagina.

  27. ASDF February 22, 2011 at 8:30 am #

    Well, I’ll be sure to order only water in the future so as not to give off entitlement princess syndrome if a man takes the initiative to invite me somewhere where there is food.

    Offer to split the bill. If he insists on paying, say “ok, well the next one is on me”, and mean it.

  28. Lily February 22, 2011 at 9:02 am #

    This paying thing is really not the same in the UK. You usually split. That’s been the culture for quite some time.

    It’s only when you get a bit older that guys will make more of a deal to pay and even then only certain types of guys – most likely to be either upper middle class/upper class & brought up like that and doesn’t matter about their job and what yours is OR regardless of background, they have been more successful than their peers and like flashing the cash – the average joe wouldn’t usually pay and certainly not expected to. This isn’t just market sample of 1, I was curious after reading it in one of those American dating books and thought I’d had it all wrong so asked around. One of my male friends has been on a lot of dates on match.com and every single time the woman has paid half (he never refuses). Though one time he fell out with a girl (and it happened to be the one he liked most) as apparently she’d paid cash for some stuff as he didn’t have any cash & he didn’t pay her back the next time or insist on paying it in full so she sent him a stroppy email.

    I don’t think it’s a Christian/non Christian thing as we also had a conversation about it at work with the 20somethings in the office & we have a few regular churhgoers amongst them.

  29. Lily February 22, 2011 at 9:03 am #

    @Aunt Haley
    I must say you have much more grace than me in terms of hosting visitors on your blog.

  30. Cathy Dinas February 22, 2011 at 9:07 am #

    Thanks ASDF :-)

    I think the key is creativity– our first date didn’t cost anything really if you can find something to do that doesn’t cost you any money the first time around it’ll be a lot less stressful and scrutinizing being done. You wont have to judge on who pays for what. He filled up on free food at the farmers market and I was fasting that day. Win Win.

    Step outside the “dinner” box!

  31. modernguy February 22, 2011 at 9:25 am #

    Haley – sorry, but it’s true. There are women who are interesting and creative, but for the most part they are uninspired and shallow. It’s not a coincidence that gossip, which consists of discussing trivialities in minute detail is such a quintessentially female activity. Women for the most part are just incapable of deep contemplation, which is the source of creative power. Women are always wondering why men don’t like talking about their day. It’s not because we don’t like talking, it’s because we don’t like talking about nothing important.

  32. modernguy February 22, 2011 at 9:45 am #

    Another facet of this is that women are happy to ignore unpleasant truths. The ideal for a woman is to be happy and for a man is to know the truth.

  33. Old Guy February 22, 2011 at 9:50 am #

    Toz: Women will rarely try to pay on a first date at a guy’s invitation. That means: ‘not trying to pay’ tells you almost nothing about any particular woman.

    Instead, ‘trying to pay’ means there is something distinctive about her, which will support a little story-telling. She may want to retroactively downgrade the encounter to less of a date; she may be trying to make some sad and socially tone-deaf feminist point; she may genuinely be unsure about what’s expected.

    She may even have realized that the guy she’s with sees the world through weird, damaged maniverse googles. She might be trying to be reassure him.

    Creating a narrative where none is needed is hamsters’ work. ‘Not trying to pay’ means nothing. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

  34. Old Guy February 22, 2011 at 9:55 am #

    Goggles.

  35. Badger February 22, 2011 at 9:57 am #

    How about you just have some game and be interesting, and then you don’t to follow a bunch of rules.

    “Note: EVEN IF THE WOMAN OFFERS TO PAY, YOU MUST STILL INSIST ON PAYING.”

    Oh for God’s sake. A woman who shit-tests me with the bill on a first date is toast in my book.

  36. Badger February 22, 2011 at 10:06 am #

    “Church girls are generally pretty straighforward with you, so you should be straightforward with them. Using hardcore gaming tactics on them is unnecessary and more likely than not will backfire on you.”

    You didn’t read the last two HH threads, did you? The one where a chick gave wildly mixed signals to a guy she didn’t want to go out with, and then pretended she had been totally on the up and up?

  37. modernguy February 22, 2011 at 10:25 am #

    One might ask why so many men need “game” these days while at the same time so many interesting technological developments are taking place. The world is full of things that men are interested in – technology, science, business – and men know a lot of interesting things and have a lot of insight about these things, yet they still need to learn to be “interesting” to women. This is because women are basically not interested in anything substantial. They are interested in momentary trivialities and little charms that have nothing to do with a man’s real purpose in life. And since there are no limits on women’s promiscuity any more, men have to learn to understand and cater to women much more than women have to understand men. So we have a situation where even if you do find a suitable wife (good luck) you have to “game” her (please her) for as long as you want to keep her, even while she basically has no understanding of you and doesn’t even feel that she should care to.

  38. cathydinas February 22, 2011 at 11:14 am #

    This is all very upsetting to read– I think women (some women)myself included have a lot to offer men outside of sex.

    And The more interested someone is about anything (whether it’s food, fashion, biochemistry or snails) if they are excited enough to share that with you they should be shut down because of it. Compassion is described as making what is important to me…important to you and Christians should have compassion for people, whether they are interested in dating or even having a friendly relationship.

    It sounds as if everyone is willing (both men and women) to make something so trivial like money (outside of marriage) a deal breaker– then you’ll be missing out on some great people in your life.

    This is not to say you should let someone walk all over you and take money from you sucking dry etc. but I honestly can say i genuinely give all the time– if i don’t want to give– i wont…I’d rather cancel a date– or let the date know in advance i’m a bit tight on cash and maybe we can reschedule. You should always assume they you’re pay both sides… especially early on what if the credit card declines or they dont accept american express– or someone steals your purse…you leave your wallet on the train.

    Other alternatives could be making dinner! or ordering in, sharing entrées…

  39. Ronin February 22, 2011 at 11:21 am #

    @ modernguy
    “So we have a situation where even if you do find a suitable wife (good luck) you have to “game” her (please her) for as long as you want to keep her, even while she basically has no understanding of you and doesn’t even feel that she should care to.”

    Start a blog already.

  40. Hope February 22, 2011 at 11:31 am #

    modernguy, you realize that how shallow, lame and uncontemplative you perceive women to be applies to men as well — you simply don’t care to marry a man, hence it matters little to you. What you seek in women is equally difficult to find in men. “Most” men are no more interested in deep and interesting discourse than “most” women. My husband’s IQ is 3 standard deviations above the norm, and men like him comprise less than one percent of the population.

    Most people don’t start off immediately talking about politics, philosophy, metaphysics, science and technology. I did with my husband after a short time of knowing him, but that was not a formal date nor something I do with most other people. I also don’t do that much overall. A woman who is never able to do frivolous and cute things or be a little helpless would not inspire much affection. I seldom bring up heavy topics with my husband, and usually only respond when he brings something up first.

    Your chief complaint appears to be that women aren’t like men, which is silly, because most men want girly women, not women who excel in heavy debates and intellectual competition. I’ve been there, done that, and gotten the “you argue like a man” and “that’s unattractive” feedbacck. Therefore I doubt you truly want a woman who has lots of masculine interests. Despite all this gabbing, you probably just want a pretty girl who doesn’t require any work or “game” to keep her happy and faithful. Unless, of course, you’re one of the rare male exceptions to the rule who values “mutual understanding” and “intellectual compatibility” over beauty.

  41. modernguy February 22, 2011 at 12:45 pm #

    Hope – I just think there should be some consistency. Men are not meant to spend their days catering to the whims of women. Yet all you hear these days is what men should be doing to ‘step up’ to be attractive to women. If women want dominant men then they should be submissive. But part of the problem is the dating market. Women love it. The system of modern dating only serves women’s desire to keep options at a maximum and commitment at a minimum so they can trade up as soon as a more charming and attractive model comes along. Most men hate dating. We are interested in the final object – sex or when that only occurs in a committed relationship, a committed relationship. Most men don’t like dating to experience different women’s “personalities” because basically women don’t differentiate themselves through that, except as sluts vs good girls. So you have a bunch of normal men going through the meat grinder of dating, who normally would be focused on substantial pursuits being forced to spend their time learning to be better peacocks. Because now they have to compete with the guys who are naturally good with women or who spend their days practicing it.

    I have no problem with ‘girly girls. But that archetype has some other qualities built in – submissiveness, vulnerability, innocence. To me that is the female ideal – and I have no problem that it comes with shallowness when it comes with the other qualities. But these days most women seem to exist with the default assumption that a man’s purpose in life is to become what women want.

  42. Toz February 22, 2011 at 1:15 pm #

    “Well, I’ll be sure to order only water in the future so as not to give off entitlement princess syndrome if a man takes the initiative to invite me somewhere where there is food.”

    Nah, that just makes you seem destitute.

  43. Hope February 22, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    A man doesn’t have to cater to the whims of women to get a good woman. In fact, this is why on some “game” blogs, the message is for men to internalize their greatness and have “inner game,” a dynamic that disregards feminine whims and focuses on masculine aims. This might appear to be a catch-22 — the attitude of not caring whether women find you attractve makes you more attractive to women, but it does work.

    A lot of women do “test” men constantly with nagging, expectations and arguments, and they can be exhausting. On the other hand, it takes a lot of self-awareness and self-control for a woman to not be “like that.” There also aren’t very many submissive women around because of the popular societal message that women should be strong, empowered and equal to men. But the truth is that women are attracted to men they look up to and perceive to be “better” than themselves.

    It sounds to me that you’ve had some bad experiences in the dating market. For my own part, I didn’t date much at all, because it’s a bad set up for introverts. It was never appealing to me to meet and date multiple people. There’s no romance or spontaneity in it. My husband also tried dating when he was around college age, and did not enjoy it.

    Dating sites especially are awful places. They promote a princess mentality; tons and tons of men are sending women messages, and it used to be only princesses who received such treatment (from suitors). Expectations and egos become superinflated, and women now demand more while offering less. Those women aren’t worth your time, so why waste your mental energy complaining about them? You can be choosy as a man, and rather than thinking about “game” as being a dancing monkey for women, it’s the way to make women work to be worthy of you.

  44. Silas Reinagel February 22, 2011 at 3:03 pm #

    These four tips are absolutely awful.

    1) A first date should never involve much money.
    2) A guy should always leave a girl wondering whether he’ll call her again. A silent, meaningful kiss is the best way to end a first date.
    3) Teasing need not be “respectful” nor overly gentle.
    4) Generally a lack of chemistry is a sign of poor or miscalibrated game.

  45. Rebekah February 22, 2011 at 3:58 pm #

    Women who are used to attracting a lot of male attention (whether they’re beautiful or just kind of slutty) need harder game run on them than women who are shy, conservative, and/or don’t go on very many dates.

    I think a man should not be too quick to presume and always take the time to observe a woman beyond her looks and perceived interest of other males. There are women who are attractive by any standard and men who notice it, but that does not always mean the women think as highly of themselves. Some of the most attractive girls I know struggle with the worst self-esteem issues, and many of them don’t date that much. Perhaps this is influenced by a moderately conservative social circle, which Haley did suggest considering.

    The teasing point is a really good one. Being playful and teasing has a way of making a woman feel comfortable and relaxed for some reason. I would just be careful how mercilessly men do this until they really know their target. And has Haley said, keep it playful ( not mean-spirited). I think most pickup artists even recommend this. Being mean makes the man look insecure and the women feel insecure.

  46. Miss365 February 22, 2011 at 5:33 pm #

    Just wondering – for all of you that don’t do these 4 things and compeletely disagree with them – how’s your dating life going these days ? ;)

    Just curious. :)

  47. random beta February 22, 2011 at 6:02 pm #

    No Miss365!

    “Just wondering – for all of you that don’t do these 4 things and compeletely disagree with them – how’s your dating life going these days ?”

    r u f***ing kidding me?

    the only thing that’s ever worked for me is acting like a d*** when i am pushy, offensively dirty and crass, using insidious explicit and implicit flirting, coupled with very aggressive physical touching, women wither. they give me everything i dream of, and beg for more like a greedy pig.

    when i treat them like a gentlemen, when i’m respectful, when i offer to pay, they get this look on their face like this guys a loser. Just asking normal get to know you questions is a sign of weakness.

    I had this girl not to long ago who approached me, flirted with me, teased me, then initiated contact with me my by taking my hand and leading me out onto the ice. but when i hadn’t copped a feel within the first hour of our meeting, she lamented, and deduced i wasn’t going to take advantage of her, and that just wasn’t the kind of man she was looking for.

    Later, I met this girl at church who was super flirty and responded to my jocular demeanor and initiating contact, But later when i asked her out, she stammered and back tracked anxiously, like she had just walked in on her parents having sex or something equally humiliating.

    yet at this same church, i met a different woman, who i ended up going on a group vacation with. She wore the tightest, lowest cut top she could manage with the tightest jeans, and made sure i got a look. She sat next to me on the ride up, making sure that we were in contact the entire trip. we flirted, and the more aggressive and dirty i behaved, the more into it she got. this fling lasted for 4 months when i broke it off, cuz it wasn’t deep enough.

    over and over i have tried being the gentleman because i hated the idea of being some asshat player, some smarmy worm.

    but rejection after rejection that is exactly what you reduced me to.

  48. cathydinas February 22, 2011 at 6:09 pm #

    I’m inviting any one of you guys …(given that i’m treated with upmost respect of course)who are single and in the SF bay area to take me out!

    just email me: hey.dinas@gmail.com

  49. Miss365 February 22, 2011 at 6:42 pm #

    @random beta

    Um, in response to your first question. No I’m not. I’m just asking. I’m genuinely curious – For those of you who seem to completely disagree with this, how is your dating life going…that’s all.

    And from your response – not great. I’m genuinely sorry to read that.

    How is it that the girls/women who are wanting the guys/men to treat them well and with respect and vise versa are just not connecting. We seem to be having the same complaints from both sides.

    Are we just not attracted to one another and it’s our ( as in us who are complaining ) fault ? Is all this talk of having game and dating rules keeping us single ?

    I look at my married friends and not one of them needed to adhear to any kind of rules or even dating. They connected as people and went from there.

  50. random beta February 22, 2011 at 7:03 pm #

    i think i am resigning myself to the fact that i am just not interesting. It also seems that the farther i get from youth, the less interesting i get. i am less moved by popular culture the older i get, and more averse to the risky behavior that i used to indulge in. My choices are more shrewd, but also, the social group which used to be very sustaining, engaging, and invigorating has been eviscerated at the hands of work and marriage. being that the requirements of both have left all of my formerly thick social group, quite thin in deed.

    Worse yet, i have far less access to the things i’m passionate about for myriad reasons.

    I will just be honest in thinking that the women i am attracted to are most certainly out of my league. I misunderstood the access that these super hawt women gave me as interested from adolescence through adulthood. frustration after frustration and the stupefying dissonance of women who share with you their deepest, dirtiest secrets, and carelessly undress infront of you then recoiling at the idea of any romantic feelings that alight upon them.

    the bitterness and anger of the humiliation which progresses to apathy and declining standards. despairing of the hope of ever winning or wooing or even finding love, settling then on those whom have desired me, those i am not attracted to.

    but when in comfortable relationships i cannot confess to them the same in love feelings that they long for or expect, they grow im-patient, and in frustration, depart.

    so it seemed as fate, or god’s will, was an angry, mean, and fickle bitch.

    and even though i am now open to relationships, i am also so weary of the chase that i cannot even muster more than a sheepish glance. there is no way to become motivated. no one has been able to articulate in even the vaguest of terms exactly what virtues a woman brings to a man these days, or what advantage coupling has over solitude…

    i am beyond even being bitter, i just don’t have the mental power to even imagine any different reality than the one which afflicts me now, the perpetual boredom of women.

  51. lifeinlonglegs February 22, 2011 at 8:12 pm #

    Random Beta: what you describe sounds like the worst kind of brokeness… it’s painful but perhaps a good place to be. God sometimes allows our failure that we can see His adequacy.

    After trying to be the player that women ‘responded’ to [on a temporary level, anyways] you described having “tried being the gentleman”.

    Rather than ‘being’ the gentleman, might you ditch the act or manipulative behaviours and just become more of who God made you to be? I don’t know what that looks like but I’m willing to say it will be someone attractive and powerful.

    Rather than letting women’s reactions dictate your actions, gravitating and testing ‘what works’, I suggest you become the anchor of your romantic relationships by turning to God in prayer and allowing him to transform you into the kind of man who will attract the awesome woman He has for you [you will surely be or become attracted to her as well, as God gives you the desires of His heart, which are better than anything we can imagine for ourselves] .

    This will get more painful before it gets better, and it will take some time, but it will be worthwhile. God Bless you in this time of numb boredom: whether you go for it or not!!

  52. lifeinlonglegs February 22, 2011 at 8:13 pm #

    p.s. that came off as more advicy than I wanted it to. I meant to present an alternative not to instruct.

  53. cathydinas February 22, 2011 at 8:35 pm #

    @lifeinlongleg– I couldnt agree with you more!

    @random beta– http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+31&version=NIV

    Proverbs 31… and for all them men & women who degraded women throughout their comments to uninteresting unintelligent or whores, sluts, churchy. girly– know that some of us…at least I do– strive to be so much more that that. There needs to be a shift in the way the world system lables us as and we need to see each other as God see us!

  54. cathydinas February 22, 2011 at 8:37 pm #

    p.s verses 10 through 30

  55. random beta February 22, 2011 at 9:11 pm #

    i completely agree. i was convicted every time i succeeded with a woman and felt so dirty because i knew it was wrong and something i didn’t want, and that regardless of how desperate i felt, it was no excuse. So i have put all of that behavior behind me!

    I no longer engage women or try to get to know them, i know that i am not what they want, and i know that there isn’t a thing in heaven or earth that i have the power or authority to do to compel that interest, that desire, i can no more will myself into Alpha-ness than i can will myself a foot taller! i cannot will myself to have a different experience with women.

    The truth is, i am not what women want. they have made that clear.

  56. MW February 23, 2011 at 2:33 am #

    RandomBeta: Sounds like you’re in an angry, gloomy place. Been there, maybe not to your depths or as long as you, but in the vicinity thereof. The church and it’s sinners will disappoint. If those are the kinds of church women (zoinks!?!) you hit it off with, man alive that’s a pretty sad statement about them.

    Get into the Gospel again. For it’s comfort, and Good News. When I was fed up with the moralism from Churchiana, it was so good to feel the reassurance that comes from for example Jesus’ prayers on John’s gospel. Hang in there, God is always there even if the church isn’t. Consider finding another more Christ centred congregation. Don’t look for a church just for the singles. It must about the gospel and orthodoxy above all.

  57. Badger February 23, 2011 at 3:37 am #

    “Just wondering – for all of you that don’t do these 4 things and compeletely disagree with them – how’s your dating life going these days ? ;)

    Just curious. :)”

    1. My first date with my girlfriend she offered to pay for her part of the check, I accepted and all was well.

    2. We didn’t have to negotiate whether we had a good time or if there’d be another date, we both knew it was good and expected to do it again.

    3. Gold: Game is critical; ditch the pedestal.

    4. This wasn’t a tip as much as an observation.

  58. y81 February 23, 2011 at 6:03 am #

    1. I don’t quite remember who paid for the first date I had with my wife. Generally, we split things when we were dating. It really wasn’t a big deal.

    2. I might have said I had a good time, but I think it is a better idea to “show, don’t tell” and make physical overtures. Which I did. Although that would have been on our second date, since our first date was lunch. So my rule would be to try and kiss her at the end of the first evening date. Also, to have an evening date as soon as possible. I really don’t believe in these daytime coffee “dates,” which I consider barely dates at all.

    3. I don’t recall doing anything like that.

    4. What Badger said.

    So it seems I mostly disagree with our hostess. To answer Miss365, I don’t really have a dating life, having been married 17 years.

  59. random beta February 23, 2011 at 6:54 am #

    not bitter, like i said, i am through that, the show it don’t say it, physical overtures which are successful it’s what leads to the problems. there is no such thing as, “just an anything…”

    women who haven’t been around the block about 40 billion times can’t escape reading all manner of ridiculous ideas from every nuance, every word, every deed, and every un-deed.

    so i have eschewed physical overtures precisely because it did work. but the consequences of the success have thus far proven to be more problematic than helpful.

    i see it in their eyes all the time. there is an unspoken expectation on their part that you are on the precipice of exploding into bliss, just one touch away from exploding into ecstasy! And i seem to get that look from so many. I know i can’t live up to that expectation, and nor do i try.

    but moreover, if they can’t like me for myself, and i have to, “slut it up,” to woo them, well, that’s not exactly worth it either. been there done that.

    so, like i said, peace about the single. if there will be a relationship in the future, it will be on my terms. and i am not in any kind of place to risk contact with a woman for any reason.

  60. Aunt Haley February 23, 2011 at 9:19 am #

    I think the only thing these anecdotes prove is that there are no rules anymore, and that it’s largely chance that anyone will do everything that the other person feels entitled to on the first date.

    Also, I don’t recommend trying to kiss conservative Christian girls too early. It will just make them think that all you want is sex, and even if she doesn’t think that, her friends will think that and poison the well against you.

  61. Toz February 23, 2011 at 11:23 am #

    “Also, I don’t recommend trying to kiss conservative Christian girls too early. It will just make them think that all you want is sex, and even if she doesn’t think that, her friends will think that and poison the well against you.”

    Funny you should say that. I’ve found that the more you resist kissing the girl, the more she wants it from you. You can be physical in a moderate way without kissing and that works fine.

  62. Augustine DeCarthage February 23, 2011 at 9:17 pm #

    “Also, I don’t recommend trying to kiss conservative Christian girls too early.” [I disagree. Kiss early.] “It will just make them think that all you want is sex,” [Yes, this is key. She must know that you as a man want sex, even if, as a Christian, you are committed to chastity (kinda) before marriage.] “and even if she doesn’t think that, her friends will think that and poison the well against you.” [This will undoubtedly happen anyway, so you might as well kiss her.]

  63. lifeinlonglegs February 23, 2011 at 9:32 pm #

    Cathy and Random Alpha [speaking it over you, man]: I am working on a little something on Proverbs 31. It may take some time but I hope it will be worth the wait.

  64. Red March 16, 2014 at 3:22 am #

    ALWAYS **offer** to pay, but I will not let you. There is an association with being a cheap-date, so I’d rather it not so much be a date, for the first couple of dates. Also, there’s an indebtedness created that forms an emotional bond, and I’d rather avoid that when it comes to lunch and a cup of coffee: just not worth it.

  65. Red March 16, 2014 at 3:24 am #

    Augustine, there are a lot of creeps out there who *say* they are decent Christian guys and *act* like they are decent Christian guys, and they *aren’t*.

  66. Red March 16, 2014 at 3:34 am #

    People who think “game” has anything to do with chemistry haven’t experienced genuine chemistry. There’s dressing marginal chemistry up, and then there’s the Amelie moment. Chemistry is very subconscious, and not something that you really have control over. Good chemistry is very, very uncommon.

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. Classic DLV: Being a MajorCheapskate « lifeinlonglegs - February 21, 2011

    […] recently affirmed by Aunt Haley, “Not paying” is the CLASSIC DLV error men make on first dates. In a LTR, there is […]

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