More anecdotal evidence that men don’t care about virginity.

23 Feb

So, in an effort to scrounge up twelve dates by May 10, because nobody I know knows any single Christian men, I finally forked over money to eHarmz.  The level of psychological pain this action incurred was comparable to my feelings when I see how much of each paycheck I lose to taxes.  Since starting eHarmz about a week or so ago, I have been matched with close to a couple dozen men and am in the early communication stages with a handful (they initiated contact).

In these early stages, you can send five pre-scripted, multiple choice questions to the other person.  One of the questions is “what are your feelings about premarital sex?”.  The answer choices range from “totally against” to “very much a fan” (paraphrase).  One of my friends always uses this question as a sort of litmus test for the man’s spiritual commitment, so I figured I would, too.  So far none of the men who have answered this question have answered “totally against.”  And in my preferences, I have matches restricted to the highest level of religious commitment as well as to primarily conservative Protestant denominations.  So on the anecdotal level, the idea that supposedly committed Christian men believe that sex is only for marriage is bunk.

Even more telling, though, is that NONE OF THESE MEN HAS ASKED ME THE SAME QUESTION.  If virginity/restriction of sex is supposedly so important to men, wouldn’t they be very interested in my feelings about it?  Yet so far nobody has sent out this question.

Then again, one of my other questions is “what are your feelings about gender roles” (with answers ranging from “get in da kitchen and make me mah DINNUH!” to “halfsies on all chores!”), I haven’t gotten matched with anyone who believes in traditional gender roles, and a number of the men have chosen the “we should define gender roles for ourselves” option.

I’m trying to keep an open mind, but my apathy is rising.

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59 Responses to “More anecdotal evidence that men don’t care about virginity.”

  1. Toz February 23, 2011 at 11:21 am #

    What are the other questions that you can ask? Premarital sex and gender roles seem a bit too serious when you’re getting to know a stranger.

  2. y81 February 23, 2011 at 11:40 am #

    This points up what I have been saying, that our hostess is going to the wrong church.

    This weekend we went to Charlottesville (college tours), where we found a very nice PCA church, with dozens of handsome young men. I’m not saying that there were more men than women, just that there were lots of men. Indeed, my wife, who seems to respond to college visits by transforming back into her 18-year-old self, had more to say about the young men than the sermon. So the fact that Haley’s friends can’t arrange 12 dates with fellow churchgoers points up the need for a change in church venue. Remember, our Lord is present wherever two or three are gathered together in his name, but Mr. Right is only in one place.

  3. cleared in hot February 23, 2011 at 11:52 am #

    the idea that supposedly committed Christian men believe that sex is only for marriage is bunk

    Two possibilities spring to mind…one, that your “test” is working and you’re seeing the actual level of Christian commitment in their response; and/or two, you’re seeing what happens when the desperation level is pretty high. Who really wants to narrow the pool even more, at least not without meeting the person and actually talking about the issues?

    a number of the men have chosen the “we should define gender roles for ourselves” option

    This is what we’ve all been told for the last forty years. Why are you surprised?

  4. ASDF February 23, 2011 at 11:58 am #

    Those questions come off as too serious to start out with. “Hi, my name is so-and-so. Are you a virgin?”.

    Also, remember the golden rule. “Good for me but not for thee”, aka, guys can have sex but you can’t. Didn’t we cover this last time? Guys don’t care if you remain a virgin until your wedding day. That’s a girl fantasy. Guys are concerned that you were a virgin before you met.

  5. modernguy February 23, 2011 at 12:00 pm #

    Why would any man voluntarily take the possibility of sex off the table? The woman is going to decide if that’s a possibility or not anyway, so might as well let her make the choice, at least initially. As for the second question, men who honestly think women belong at home and say it will almost always have that used against them eventually, and we know this. Why give women one more reason to disqualify you off the bat?

  6. yvettefrancino February 23, 2011 at 12:08 pm #

    Hi Haley,
    I would suggest you consider that while many men may take their Christian commitments seriously, they are open to dating others who aren’t as serious about it or who have become more serious over time. Maybe they’d prefer to date someone who wants to wait until marriage, but realize that saying that was mandatory would sound judgmental of those women who may not be virgins but now would be willing to wait.

    On the gender deal, is “get in da kitchen and make me mah DINNUH” considered traditional? “Defining gender roles for ourselves” sounds like the healthiest option because it’s unlikely that any of the canned responses fits the very unique model that you and a partner would make.

    Personally, I don’t like the eHarmony canned questions, or canned questions in general. There are so many more answers than the canned responses, so it’s difficult to truly sense a person’s character. For that you need open communication.

    OKCupid is very interesting because there are hundreds of questions (and you can make up your own) about all kinds of topics and also how important the answers are to you when they pertain to a partner. It’s free, so I’d suggest checking it out.

    You also might try a Christian dating site.

    As for eHarmony, unless the guy is totally off-base, I wouldn’t be too quick to assess his level of Christian commitment based on his eHarmony answers. Talk to him first and you will most likely get a better sense of his personality and values.

  7. Lando February 23, 2011 at 12:21 pm #

    Yeah “cleared in hot” is right. I know a Christian guy who is on a dating site. He didn’t put anything in the religion field.

    Guys on dating sites are usually desperate for dates. When most women aren’t even marriage minded in their 20’s why shoot yourself in the foot by looking over potential good partners just because they have different beliefs on a value that you can possibly negotiate on.

    As far as gender roles, if you got game and leverage in the relationship, you can turn a cold hearted feminist monster into a doe eyed girl who happily skips off to the kitchen. I think a lot of intelligent men realize this. I’ve seen a lot of traditional marriage role marriages from outside (including my parents’) where it was obvious that the woman had the man by the balls even though everything else on the outside was “traditional”

    And really should sex be up on the top of the list? I’m a virgin dating a non-virgin (her number isn’t high). I found out about this from a third party right before our first date and almost wrote the girl off because I do value sexual abstinence.

    However she has offset that by being supportive, submissive, playful, and positive in our relationship. She also made it clear early on that she would not repeat past mistakes with me, she hesitantly told me this before she knew I was a virgin (she had thought I wasn’t because of my confidence and game).

    Really I’m just glad I have a girl who’s a believer and who treats me right without a bunch of relationship bull crap that I have to wade through.

  8. Aunt Haley February 23, 2011 at 12:25 pm #

    1. The canned question does not ask the person if they are a virgin. The question is how the person feels about premarital sex. For every question, the person has the option of writing in an answer.

    2. You can set your match preferences based on sexual experience. As a realist, I didn’t demand virginity. But all that seems to do is just get you matched with people who don’t value chastity.

  9. cleared in hot February 23, 2011 at 12:37 pm #

    As a realist, I didn’t demand virginity. But all that seems to do is just get you matched with people who don’t value chastity.

    1+1=2

  10. Lover of Wisdom February 23, 2011 at 12:37 pm #

    I have a feeling that your experiences with eHarmz are going to be great entertainment for the blogosphere.

  11. Simon Grey February 23, 2011 at 12:41 pm #

    @Haley- You’ve got to account for selection bias here. most guys on this site are likely betas, since they are using this venue instead of face-to-face (this is a general observation; there are probably some alphas who find this site as a good way to find flings, or are in a place where they can’t meet women). As betas, they are more concerned with not offending the girl they’re trying to meet, and so they go for more neutral answers (and by this I’m saying that they are lying to you). Their behavior is rational in the aggregate, but not in your specific case. As such, you’re reading to much into this.

  12. Splash Daddy February 23, 2011 at 12:49 pm #

    You’re correct Haley – men don’t really care about virginity. Chastity, virtue – yes. But only a very young man who is committed to remaining a virgin until married cares, and even this will diminish the older he gets (assuming he is within the relative norms of personality, attractiveness, and libido).

    Gender roles? The responses you get will be what the guy thinks you want to hear.

    Stay away from the serious questions before you’ve even met. Just get a date in a casual atmosphere with minimal pretense.

  13. knepper February 23, 2011 at 12:50 pm #

    My sense is most guys, even if they are personally opposed to premarital sex, are not going to say so unequivocally on an ‘icebreaker’ questionaire. The reason is, it makes them seem like a wimp, a beta, and a man who has a low sex drive. No one wants to be crossed off some hot babe’s list early on because they are tagged as someone who doesn’t care much about sex.

  14. Aunt Haley February 23, 2011 at 1:00 pm #

    Lover of Wisdom–
    You seem to have the unique ability among commenters here to be amused by anything I write.

    …Congrats?

  15. Hope February 23, 2011 at 1:21 pm #

    Most men nowadays will say they don’t care about traditional gender roles, but in practice they almost certainly love it when the girl does all the cooking and cleaning. They aren’t and usually won’t be blunt about this, except when talking with the boys.

    This is an area where the girl is just going to have to game herself into being domestic, because a man demanding a domestic servant doesn’t fly well in the current social millieu. Think of it as a form of female game.

  16. Cpt. Capitalism February 23, 2011 at 1:41 pm #

    Haley,

    Sounds actually beneath you with those kind of questions (and answers). I’m just picturing a ton of Promise Keeper type whiteknights that would be answering these questions. Though I do wish you the best of luck.

    Cpt.

  17. Josh February 23, 2011 at 2:59 pm #

    It’s a dating site. And you pay for it. These customers, are, almost by definition, not in a position to make demands.

  18. Helvetica February 23, 2011 at 3:05 pm #

    I tried eHarmz a number of years ago – kind of an interesting experience. Notwithstanding the fact that I live in the sticks and had to set my area range on the farthest setting, the web site ticked me off by matching me up with short guys. I clock in at 5’9″ and set it to hook me up with tall guys – it was setting me up with fracking 5’4″ dudes!

    And yes I do share your frustration with the general level of sexual purity demonstrated by our fellow “christians”, not just men but women included. I get tagged as a loser even among other Christians, that is how bad it is where I live.

  19. Lawyer from Hell February 23, 2011 at 3:09 pm #

    The answer to the premartial sex question is an attempt to be nonjudgmental. plus it is the best answer to elicit your sexual history.

    In our current society the probability of meeting a virgin is so close to zero it is statistically around there, inculding in the religious setting. An answer of totally against it, conveys they would judge a woman that has premarital sex and thus preclude almost the entire dating pool.

    Secondly, in order to gage a woman as a prospect, her premarital history does matter and saying that he’s against premarital sex means that any woman that he interacts with is more likely to lower her numbers (or claim virginity) in order to satisfy that response.

    Their answer is much more prudent at getting to the truth.

    Finally, most men would not preclude the opportunity for sex, even if they are christian.

    As for the other question, that is again the socially prudent answer. It converys that his future wifed is a team mate. Blah blah blah.

    All this is very beta thinking as someone pointed out.

    Which is part of the reason the church is dying.

  20. Toz February 23, 2011 at 3:22 pm #

    “You seem to have the unique ability among commenters here to be amused by anything I write.”

    Oh, I’m very amused. Which is why I comment here.

    I’ve been told that eHarmony has a 65-35 ration girl/guy and that other sites such as match.com have the reverse. Perhaps you should try one that’s got better ratios for you?

  21. Purple Tortoise February 23, 2011 at 3:50 pm #

    I tried eHarmony about ten years ago but quit after a couple months. One of my acquaintances had success, but I found that it had insufficient screening for serious Christians. The choice of preset questions and answers was also suboptimal. Perhaps eHarmony relies too much on matching “personality” and too little on matching core values.

  22. Helvetica February 23, 2011 at 4:19 pm #

    Slightly OT – this probably tells you a little bit about the culture where I live. It is nice to be able to talk openly about valuing chastity, even if it is online. If I were to talk about that in real live, even at church, I would get labeled as a closet homo emotionally underdeveloped stuffed-emotions male-hating chronic spinster.

    I think I need to move.

  23. Purple Tortoise February 23, 2011 at 4:53 pm #

    “Slightly OT – this probably tells you a little bit about the culture where I live. It is nice to be able to talk openly about valuing chastity, even if it is online. If I were to talk about that in real live, even at church, I would get labeled as a closet homo emotionally underdeveloped stuffed-emotions male-hating chronic spinster.” — Helvetica

    You should find a different church.

  24. Ceer February 23, 2011 at 6:59 pm #

    I was linked to your site by the Captain Capitalism blog, which I read for his economic commentary. As I’ve been reading online, I’ve begun to doubt that women truly respect men who are committed sexually to their future marriage. I tend not to talk about the fact that I’m a virgin with anyone I’m interested in. Your post gives me heart, though.

  25. Aunt Haley February 23, 2011 at 8:18 pm #

    Cap’n Crunch–
    What do you mean by “beneath me”?

    Helvetica–
    I think it’s time for a church upgrade.

    Toz–
    I’m already financially committed to eHarmz for the time being. It’s probably heavily female there because people like RoboPastor tell their congregants that it’s the best online dating site for restricting for Christian matches, and people like me decide to trust him.

    Ceer–
    There are a lot of women who respect men who are committed to purity. Just don’t act like a dweeb.

  26. Joseph Dantes February 23, 2011 at 8:22 pm #

    It’s a dating site, try contacting the men you want. You don’t have ONLINE approach anxiety, do you?

    I strongly recommend split testing and treating it as a marketing and numbers game. Online, that’s all it is. A video game.

  27. Joseph Dantes February 23, 2011 at 8:29 pm #

    Seriously Haley this is such a farce. All you have to do is cast flattery and appreciation to the four winds and the beta puppydog Churchians will come running.

    Either you’re unwilling to do the above, which is a problem of motivation, or you’re dissatisfied with the resulting men, which is a problem of realism.

    The ghostly cries of a barren womb await…

  28. Cpt. Capitalism February 23, 2011 at 9:14 pm #

    Beneath you as in;

    The questions are indicative that the type of people who run the site AND participate are going to be below your intellect.

    Just reading the questions and the multiple choice answer made my stomach turn. You seem too blunt and honest and direct to suffer the inane, “Do you believe in premarital sex;

    a. No, damnit woooooman. Bend over.”
    b. “Well, I’m a traditional values type of guy”
    c. Tee hee. Tee hee! Well, I don’t kiss and tell.
    or
    d. Bend over wooooman!

    Who the freak came up with these questions and honest to god who lowers themselves to the point of answering them?

    And frankly, not you.

  29. jack February 23, 2011 at 9:28 pm #

    I understand your thinking, Haley, but remember this is why marketing agencies use very tricky tactics to understand what customers really want.

    If you stick a camera in someone’s face and ask them about what kind of car they would prefer, you can bet that they will give very publicly-acceptable answers.

    Fuel efficiency, low maintenance cost, whatever.

    But what do the actually buy? Plenty of gas-guzzling sports cars and huge trucks.

    If you ask Joe 6pack down the street why he bought that huge truck, he will give you all sorts of reasons like movin’ stuff, or whatever.

    But the realllll reason is that he feels like a stud driving around in his big ol’ truck.

    This is why these guys don’t answer your question truthfully.

    Also, you must realize that guys on eharmony (as pointed out above) are very beta and their experience with women up to this point has been that the women they know all have more sexual experience than they do.

    They do not like this very much, but are realistic enough to know that they will have to compromise on this point.

    Either way, they will hedge on this question so as to yield the maximum chance of meeting you.

  30. Badger February 23, 2011 at 9:33 pm #

    ” As betas, they are more concerned with not offending the girl they’re trying to meet, and so they go for more neutral answers (and by this I’m saying that they are lying to you)”

    This is something I learned early in online dating – be maximally interesting to a subset of people, don’t try to appeal to the widest possible audience by painting yourself as neutral.

  31. lifeinlonglegs February 23, 2011 at 9:52 pm #

    Thank you Badger; finally someone with gumption not to paint every room beige!
    [note: I think THIS is why the church is dying. no salt!, all fear.]

    Ceer = welcome. You have friends here!

    “Guys don’t care if you remain a virgin until your wedding day. That’s a girl fantasy. Guys are concerned that you were a virgin before you met.”

    …um….which, incidentally, is why even many Christian women aren’t virgins anymore: you think you’re getting married, even discuss it, even get engaged, then think well we’re “as good as married’ [ugh] …. and then the dude doesn’t pony up and marry you. Convenient, no? [keep those chastity belts locked, ladies]

    Helvetica – I tried eharms and had the same experience. Nothing but immigrant 5 foot 2 men. Then they all went off to work in a mine somewhere and this evil witch came and offered me some kind of poisoned apple, and I fell asleep. I am currently waiting for a handsome prince [who values chastity and doesn’t need a step ladder] to wake me.

    …enter Joseph D: I, too hear the “ghostly cries of a barren womb”.

  32. ASDF February 23, 2011 at 10:14 pm #

    Lifeinlonglegs:

    …um….which, incidentally, is why even many Christian women aren’t virgins anymore: you think you’re getting married, even discuss it, even get engaged, then think well we’re “as good as married’ [ugh] …. and then the dude doesn’t pony up and marry you. Convenient, no?

    Really? The majority of Christian non-virgin girls were duped by fake engagement? Christian male “players” hung out with them and didn’t have sex for 6-10 months before finally getting the bang and then leaving?

    It seems more likely that Christian non-virgin girls have only themselves to blame, probably by getting into an insta-relationship and having sex with “THE ONE” after a month. And then doing it all over again the next month with the next love of their life.

  33. Aunt Haley February 23, 2011 at 10:46 pm #

    Sir Crunch-a-lot–
    Just reading the questions and the multiple choice answer made my stomach turn. You seem too blunt and honest and direct to suffer the inane, “Do you believe in premarital sex;

    I admit to gritting my teeth some, but you can’t win if you don’t play the game. And since I don’t know anyone who knows anyone, I’m kind of stuck playing the game.

    The thing about online profiles is that (a) most people are not that interesting, and (b) most people are not good writers. Combining those two traits doesn’t make for scintillating reading…or gina tingles. I will give eHarmz credit for not matching me with any real dullards. So far I think the service is best suited to nice, earnest people who want to meet other nice, earnest people.

    Badger–
    This is something I learned early in online dating – be maximally interesting to a subset of people, don’t try to appeal to the widest possible audience by painting yourself as neutral.

    I let my friends see my profile. One friend thought it was really boring and chastised me for it; another thought it was really funny. I’ve thought about making my profile more generic and ~heartfelt~ in an attempt to induce more contact initiation, but my inner iconoclast resists.

  34. P February 24, 2011 at 12:39 am #

    Haley, I love you, but sometimes your sheer level of cluelessness makes me tear my hair out.

    Let me share you a view from the opposite side of the spectrum. I am on a few online dating sites, and 80% of girls’ profiles begin thusly:

    “I LOVE sports. LOVE them. I especially love {proceed to list *each* and *every* local sports team}. I will now authenticate my sports fandom by using the nickname current in the local vernacular for *each* and *every* local sports team. As you can see, I am quite the sports fan. Really.”

    At first, this kinda freaked me out. I passed over some profiles, thinking, “sorry, I like the odd game now and then, but I’m just not THAT into sports.” But then, as profile after profile (really, the 80% is not an exaggeration) began the same way, I had an epiphany:

    They were lying.

    You see, people just meeting other people tend to tell each other what they want to hear. And every man has been subjected to countless hours of lectures about the evils of “slut-shaming” and he just doesn’t want to deal with argument.

    Does that mean he is lacking in “Christian commitment”? Now, it means he is realistic about his options.

    But I do assure you, there is not the man yet made who can hear a woman even say the word “virgin” without getting half a boner.

  35. Double E February 24, 2011 at 2:24 am #

    I’m a Christian man. I’m on eharmony. Those two questions you mentioned are two that I ask right off the bat.

    The ratio of women to those who don’t on that website who:
    *are age 31 and below
    *are against pre-marital sex
    *want traditional gender roles
    *are not chubby

    1/200

    And all of them were Asians born outside the States.

  36. Miss365 February 24, 2011 at 2:33 am #

    Let me just say that at least the pool of people who actually use and pay for membership for eHarmz in the US is waayyyyy bigger than in Australia. :)

    SplashDaddy ‘You’re correct Haley – men don’t really care about virginity. Chastity, virtue – yes. But only a very young man who is committed to remaining a virgin until married cares, and even this will diminish the older he gets (assuming he is within the relative norms of personality, attractiveness, and libido).

    Gender roles? The responses you get will be what the guy thinks you want to hear.

    Stay away from the serious questions before you’ve even met. Just get a date in a casual atmosphere with minimal pretense.’

    I’m with you right up until the last point. The thing that actually makes Eharmony stand out from the rest of the dating sites – Christian or not – is those types of questions.

    And if you’re just after a date Haley then yeah, these questions are too heavy, but if you are after someone who could potentially be someone that you want to share your life with then no, better to work it out now. But personally I wouldn’t analyze the answers too much at this stage, wait until you meet some of them in person and find out their explanation for some of these things. Usually a completely different story because they will have their experience and story attached to their answer. And most of the time it won’t be what you expect. :)

  37. Aunt Haley February 24, 2011 at 8:03 am #

    P–
    What do you have in your profile that’s getting you matched with so many “sports-loving” women?

    Also, the word boner is funny-haha.

    Double E–
    I take it you don’t have yellow fever?

  38. Hermes February 24, 2011 at 8:04 am #

    This isn’t related to the virginity issue, but does demonstrate how difficult it can be even for a supposed conservative Christian to find someone on eHarmony.

    I was a member back in 2006, and had answered all the “values” questions so as to screen for committed Christians. I kept getting matched with a lot of girls who were committed Christians, but whose profiles said they were into things like “social justice” and “racial reconciliation.” After a while, I added to my profile a blurb about being a traditionalist who likes old-fashioned Western Civilization or something like that. From that point on, all the social justice/racial reconcilation girls started closing on me with the “our values don’t match” reason.

  39. Cpt. Capitalism February 24, 2011 at 11:20 am #

    Then I ask;

    Isn’t a life by yourself enjoying the intellect of others (be they friends, family, bloggercomrades, etc.) where you have the freedom to do what you want, better than “settling” for the (invariably) lame contestants that are going to come from “e-harmony?”

    There are fates worse than marriage to somebody you really don’t like. And being single and happy and enjoying this one life you’re given by the almighty is certainly preferable than “forcing” yourself psychologically to somehow “hook up” and marry somebody for the sake of marriage/boredom, let alone because society told you to get married.

    Do your own damn thing and if men are too stupid to realize they maybe aught to participate then to hell with them.

    Cpt.

  40. Aunt Haley February 24, 2011 at 12:52 pm #

    Hermes–
    Other than the fact that you are a raging reactionary conservative, the rest of your profile probably fits the typical educated progressive profile, which is why you kept getting matched with Sally Society-Savers. Maybe next time you should present yourself as more average and see if you get a more suitable set of matches? It would be an interesting experiment, anyway.

    CPT (straight outta Compton!)–
    Your advice is flying in the face of everything ever printed in the manosphere, which is that perfect is the enemy of okay good, and that as a woman who’s getting older every day and therefore uglier, I should settle as soon as possible in order to find happiness. Don’t hate my attempt to at least stick my toe in the water.

  41. Old Guy February 24, 2011 at 12:53 pm #

    P: You’re right. Haley’s not attuned to how cultish it sounds for a guy to say he was “totally against” premarital sex, when (assuming he’s age appropriate) his boy parts have been barking at him nonstop for over half his life and they aren’t going to stop soon.

    Haley: They call sex a temptation because guys really, really, really want to do it. Not having sex when you can is hard. Guys are not going to say they’re “totally against” premarital sex because every cell tells them otherwise and they’d be lying. Trust us on this.

    P: Speaking as a man yet made, worrying about virginity as such is just weird: Your wife isn’t going to be one for almost all of your marriage, and that won’t make her less boner-worthy. People who drive planes into buildings apparently look forward to a never-ending supply of virgins in the afterlife, but that’s a symptom of their disease.

    ***

    Virginity is a tolerable proxy for chastity among the young and attractive, but it is strange to see Christians insisting that its absence is an indelible stain.

    Are people bent out of shape about virginity because they feel Christ forgives too easily? Perhaps He’s let them off easily at least once and they want to impose a higher standard?

    One of the regulars here gets it: she’s definitely no fan of cheap grace and thinks that Christ forgives and so should you. She’s Protestant, but somehow knows what penance is all about. (She can identify herself if she wants.)

  42. Ocsne February 24, 2011 at 1:14 pm #

    I am a single Christian man and here it is, short and sweet:

    A non-virgin is not a deal breaker.

    With this said I do not undermine the purity of virgin women. As a Christian man a virgin is the ideal case. However, in this non-ideal world there will be single Christian women who are not virigins. These women cannot undo this fact. Therefore where a woman is in her walk with the Lord and her love for Him is much more important than if she is a virigin or not.

  43. Double E February 24, 2011 at 1:31 pm #

    I was unclear. The 1/200 group were all Asians. The rest of the 199 were of all ethnicities.

    Yellow fever jokes aside, I’ve noticed that Han, Korean, and Viet Christians tend to be more sexually conservative than western Christians. It really isn’t very funny.

    I am not looking for a hookup. I am not looking for a casual date. I am not looking for a girlfriend or LTR. I am looking for a good wife. It makes all the difference. And if I am going to commit fully to a woman recognizing that God does not permit divorce except in cases of adultery, I am not going to settle for second best. I am not going to settle for a woman whose past says that she may very well bail when times get tough. I am not going to settle for a woman whose past tells me that adultery is a very real possibility.

    To men looking for marriage specifically, a woman’s sexual past matters. Her values matter. How she treats her family matters. How she is around children matters. Her faith matters. Her debt level and wisdom with money matters. Whether she is dedicated to family more than career matters. Her demeanor matters. Her femininity matters.

    Quoting from The Social Pathologist:

    “And before anyone thinks I had excessively high standards, I did. I was playing for keeps, this wasn’t a game. My treasure, my good name and my future children (and all that frustrated hedonism) had a vested interest in the choice of my mate. She had to be exceptional. She is.”

    http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2009_11_15_archive.html

    I agree fully. I have kept these standards for myself and hold women whom I consider a potential wife to them. It has paid off. My girlfriend who is likely my soon to be wife is much of what I expected.

  44. ASDF February 24, 2011 at 2:49 pm #

    I could probably handle a girl who had a partner or two, but mostly I want a virgin wife in case I have daughters. I want us to be on the same page when I tell my daughters about how they shouldn’t sleep with men outside of marriage or they’ll be worthless sluts.

  45. cathydinas February 24, 2011 at 3:05 pm #

    Aunt Haley

    “Double E–
    I take it you don’t have yellow fever?”

    Really necessary?

  46. ASDF February 24, 2011 at 3:19 pm #

    Yellow fever, jungle fever, we don’t stand on ceremony here. If they came up with a funny name for white fever, I doubt I’d be offended.

  47. Aunt Haley February 24, 2011 at 9:22 pm #

    White supremacy fever.

  48. ASDF February 25, 2011 at 6:31 am #

    Well, the manosphere does have quite the crossover with the reactionary-sphere. I say we run with it!

  49. y81 February 25, 2011 at 8:08 am #

    The manosphere has quite a bit of overlap with the out-of-the-mainstream far right. Which is why the manosphere isn’t getting any. Conventionally pretty girls say yes to conventionally successful boys, which is why I recommend conventional approaches.

  50. terry@breathinggrace February 25, 2011 at 9:00 am #

    One of the regulars here gets it: she’s definitely no fan of cheap grace and thinks that Christ forgives and so should you. She’s Protestant, but somehow knows what penance is all about. (She can identify herself if she wants.)

    While I’m pretty sure this comment was not referring to me, since I only chime in here every once in a while, I appreciated the sentiment expressed. I agree with Old Guy (and the woman to which he is referring) 100%.

    We are teaching our girls the importance of purity and the problems that promiscuity and disobedience to God’s commands in this area can create. But…

    I shudder to think what I would have missed out on had a written my guy off because of his past. At 17 years and counting, I truly cannot imagine being happier with anyone than I have been with him.

    Still, I think Haley may have touched on something important here. If supposedly committed Christian men can’t cut to the chase on an issue as basic as premarital sex and denounce it outright, that’s troubling.

  51. knepper February 25, 2011 at 4:02 pm #

    There is also the fact that the venue itself (internet dating) likely screens out many committed Christians. Let’s face it–it’s hard to believe that God is guiding you to your ‘perfect’ spouse, when you know (if you’re a guy) that 90% of the reason that you are clicking on a particular woman is that she looks hot. Is God guiding your finger as you click on 2Sexy4U who likely has posted a picture of herself that is at least 10 years old? Not hardly.
    Even if you have the noblest of intentions, there is something about the experience of clicking on her, and her, and her that brings out the carnality in a guy. Just saying.

  52. Aunt Haley February 25, 2011 at 4:23 pm #

    I don’t understand how men can’t tell if a photo is ten years old or not. Shouldn’t hairstyle, makeup, and clothing be a giveaway?

  53. Samson February 25, 2011 at 6:13 pm #

    Shouldn’t hairstyle, makeup, and clothing be a giveaway?

    You’re expecting *way* too much here, Auntie.

  54. y81 February 26, 2011 at 5:09 am #

    Haley must have very fashionable friends. I just looked around the house at our family pictures, and I can’t see any change in ten years. My wife was most commonly wearing cotton knit blouses and shoulder length hair then and now. As for me, some of my suits ARE ten years old.

    Now it’s true, if you go back 50 years, there are some changes. None of the little boys at our church are wearing powder blue suits with knee pants, as I did, and none of the little girls wear white gloves, as my wife and sister did. (None of the adult women wear white gloves, for that matter, as my mother and mother-in-law did.)

  55. lifeinlonglegs February 27, 2011 at 8:46 pm #

    ASDF -forgive the singular example: I’m not saying women were duped by fake engagement. I’m saying they fell for the lie that ‘we know we’re going to get married, so why does it matter” crap. [engaged or not]. IF they fell for it, so did the guy. Virginity matters to women, too. Whether you dishonor each other in fornication after two hours or 12 months doesn’t matter: you’re still not married. :) Women and men are equally responsible, I’m just telling women not to be stupid because we ladies can imagine we’re ‘as good as’ engaged rationalizations when that’s not reality at all. Not sure men fall into the same trap…

    e.g. you yourself cite educating your daughters that “they shouldn’t sleep with men outside of marriage or they’ll be worthless sluts…” …rather than your sons. I imagine you will teach them not to marry “worthless sluts” but am wondering – will you instruct them to retain their virginity [or consider themselves worthless sluts as well]? Is this a cultural issue or a spiritual one from your perspective? – or both?

    As for the virgin issue: it is important for both men and women to preserve themselves for marriage.

    Where virginity was lost within context of marriage and spouse died, there ought be no issue if fornication has not occurred.

    Where virginity was lost within marriage, but divorce occurred – the question is one of biblical eligibility for marriage.

    Where sin has been committed and repentance [actual turning away, not feeling ‘sorry’ with no action] is evident over the long term, there is reason to believe that Christ has renewed this person and their sexuality but prayer is required to determine the right course of action when considering pursuit of marriage with such a person.

    Where people are consistently disobedient to God [read: someone who has sex or sexual contact before marriage as a Christian] there is good reason to question their commitment to God and therefore their prospects as a marriage partner [no evidence of true commitment to Christ – why would they be committed to you? On what power would that commitment rest? Their flesh? …certainly the Holy Spirit is our source of Power over sin!]

    That’s my two cents – from a Christian perspective and not one of evolutionary psychology.

    It is important that if we consider ourselves “morally superior” because of our spotless record in this area, we examine ourselves humbly in consideration of Matthew 5:28.

  56. lifeinlonglegs February 27, 2011 at 8:50 pm #

    “Where people are consistently disobedient to God [read: someone who has sex or sexual contact before marriage as a Christian] …”

    just to clarify – I mean as a Christian as in “while they are a Christian”, ongoingly as a Christian, or after a reasonable period of purporting to be a Christian – as opposed to ‘before’ they were a Christian. We’re DEAD in Sin, not sick in sin… can’t expect someone separated from God to have a ton of self control [fruit of the Spirit].

  57. Joseph Dantes February 27, 2011 at 9:27 pm #

    “Your advice is flying in the face of everything ever printed in the manosphere, which is that perfect is the enemy of okay good, and that as a woman who’s getting older every day and therefore uglier, I should settle as soon as possible in order to find happiness”

    It’s not just advice pointed at girls. Don’t pretend to special persecution:

    “Why You’re Alone and Miserable,” by Assanova
    http://www.realassanova.com/2011/02/why-youre-alone-and-miserable.html

  58. Jason March 22, 2011 at 9:28 pm #

    Whether you dishonor
    each other in fornication after two
    hours or 12 months doesn’t matter :
    you’re still not married. : )

    From a first testament perspective, when you dishonour each other in fornication you are married. Not much of a ceremony though. :)

  59. Jennifer August 19, 2011 at 6:57 pm #

    Nothing wrong with splitting gender roles, but on the virginity thing, I think they’re just trying to be realistic :S Most guys, though, see chastity as preferable.

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