If it weren’t for sex…

2 Mar

If it weren’t for sex, it would be so much easier to be single (Christian-style, anyway).

If it weren’t for sex, it would be so much easier to find someone to marry.


69 Responses to “If it weren’t for sex…”

  1. Bhetti March 2, 2011 at 8:14 am #

    Look deeper, dig deeper.

    To me this is what you’re saying:
    You’re living in an unChristian society, with even alleged Christians (especially males) not holding your values about the special importance of sex within a marriage.

    Sexual reproduction is one of the most beautiful acts on Earth. Don’t blame it, in itself.

  2. Country Lawyer March 2, 2011 at 8:49 am #

    What do you think keeps men connected to women?

    If it weren’t for sex (and children from it) women would have no power over men.

    The fact that men are withdrawing from society and marriage is evidence of this.

  3. jack March 2, 2011 at 9:20 am #

    Country Lawyer is correct-

    A large portion of non-Christian women seem to want the great masses of beta males to keep toiling away to keep civilization functioning, technology advancing, etc., while they spend most of their affection and attention on the handful of men that provide spark/v-tingle.

    Some Christian women even expect this.

  4. Wayfinder March 2, 2011 at 10:12 am #

    If it weren’t for sex, there wouldn’t be any reason to get married.

  5. Hope March 2, 2011 at 10:53 am #

    It’s the digital age. You have the perfect opportunity for not having actual sex until marriage bed, but still being a sexual and sexy creature in a man’s eyes. Sexting, cyber sex, phone sex and mutual fantasies involve zero physical contact but let a man know you’re a sexual creature and develops intimacy without the other complications.

    I don’t think any man would think of a female virgin as unchaste for just “talking sexy,” but they would be afraid that you’re frigid and won’t be sexual after marriage if you never show your sexual side. Maybe this is a bold statement, but I’ll make it anyway. No man ever falls in love with a woman without first having been immensely turned on by her.

    If any man wants to disagree with that, feel free.

  6. Aunt Haley March 2, 2011 at 2:12 pm #

    If it weren’t for sex, there wouldn’t be any reason to get married.

    But it would be easier to pick a spouse if sex weren’t a consideration.

  7. jack March 2, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    But why would a guy want a spouse?

    I think I can translate Haley’s assertion as such:

    “If it were not for sex, I would have an amazing assortment of serviceable but unattractive beta males to choose from.”

  8. jack March 2, 2011 at 2:41 pm #

    Well to be more clear, that choice exists now.

    Most women desperately wish they could be attracted to ‘good guys’, but they spend every waking second training themselves to crave something else.

  9. DavidD March 2, 2011 at 3:43 pm #

    Similar logic has been around for centuries, periodically prompting some unusual men to castrate themselves (some encouraged by Matthew 19:12, 1Cor. 7:7). Almost 30 years ago I read of a young man who was so disappointed by the amount of sexual desire still left in him after he castrated himself, he decided to remove his own adrenal glands, too. He did a skillful job of cutting his way down toward his adrenal glands from the front of his abdomen, aided by mirrors and clamps on stands. There are so many organs in the way, though, he found he passed out when he tried to retract them all. He had to give up the effort. He had to admit God wasn’t with him in this plan.

    Fortunately most people accept that biology is what it is for many good reasons, long before they reach a point in trying to conquer their biology where they simply can’t go further, having burned some bridges even to get that far. Plastic surgery addicts come to mind.

    People are always going to wonder, “What if …”, often in completely unrealistic ways. I think I’ve had better results in accepting why things are the way they are, both physical things and spiritual things, that when I have found some effort difficult or even impossible, there are good reasons for that. It’s always helped me to ask for God’s help in seeing those reasons.

  10. lifeinlonglegs March 2, 2011 at 9:37 pm #

    I see your point Haley – understanding that what we’re talking about here isn’t finding a ‘servicable’ man [um, we could just employ someone if that was what we were looking for] but rather a deep fruitful friendship and an emotional and personal relational connection with someone with whom we share similar beliefs, values – and goals with whom we can serve God… that would be easier if we could eliminate the necessity of romantic attraction, physical attraction. Easier, but less beautiful.

    re: the digital age – If we think “physical contact” is the thing scripture is concerned with we’re kidding ourselves – it’s the ‘why’ not the ‘what’… the heart attitude is the crucial thing. Matthew 5:8 people!!

  11. Wayfinder March 2, 2011 at 10:35 pm #

    Remove sex, procreation, and children from the equation and what do you have left?

    Companionship and laundry, basically. Guys have been doing their own laundry for the last forty years, and most of them are fine hanging out with their male friends. If you remove sex from the equation there’s little reason left for men to seek out women specifically. It used to be that housekeeping skills created an equal exchange, but few men or women cook or anything anymore.

  12. Aunt Haley March 2, 2011 at 11:00 pm #

    You are misunderstanding my point, probably because men always have the luxury of already being sexually attracted to their options. Women don’t.

  13. y81 March 3, 2011 at 5:58 am #

    If I understand Haley, she is saying that men are not very sexually selective, and the typical man finds most women attractive, so out of the large number of women he finds attractive, he can choose the “best” spouse (based on his own definition of “best”). Whereas, Haley is saying, most women are very selective, and she, Haley, in particular, is mostly attracted to aloof, manipulative, bad-boy types who aren’t particularly suitable or even interested in her.

    I’m not sure this is true about women in general–I’ve know plenty of boy-crazy girls who seemed to be attracted to just about every guy they met, and chose suitable husbands from that set–but it may be true about Haley.

    Maybe some evangelical group should open a camp to re-orient the Haleys of the world so that they are attracted to Christian men with jobs, paternal instincts, etc., instead of pining for unsuitable men. Or maybe Haley’s personal demons can be driven out by prayer and fasting.

  14. Wayfinder March 3, 2011 at 6:07 am #

    Evidently I am; the first thing that struck me about this post was that it made no sense from the male perspective. I’d be interested in hearing your clarification, because it feels like an important point that I’m not quite grasping.

  15. ASDF March 3, 2011 at 6:46 am #


    Maybe some evangelical group should open a camp to re-orient the Haleys of the world so that they are attracted to Christian men with jobs, paternal instincts, etc., instead of pining for unsuitable men.

    They’d probably have better luck just letting boys be boys instead of feminizing them and teaching them to pedestal. That would also solve much of the problem. Much easier than re-wiring girls’ brains.

  16. jack March 3, 2011 at 7:15 am #

    Well, yeahh, sortaaa…

    IT is not so much that men are sexually attracted to lots of women as much as it is that we are sexually attracted to having sex.

    Women should be careful not to feel too flattered by this imbalance of desire.

    Look at it from another angle – suppose a person is very angry and frustrated about something. They are that much more likely to vent by snapping at the first person who irritates them. The recipient of such an outburst would be wise not to assume that they are a favored individual that was sought out specifically.

    The male sex drive is not all that different. As a guy gets hornier, his standards drop accordingly.

    Men do not have the ‘benefit’ of being sexually attracted to lots of women – we are not THAT attracted.

    Women are actually the ones who benefit – even if they are not all that attractive, the male sex drive makes sure that some guys will pay attention to them.

  17. Aunt Haley March 3, 2011 at 8:45 am #

    Most women have a sex drive, which makes being single unsatisfactory. For Christians, the only way to satisfy the sex drive is through marriage. But the problem for most women is that they’re not going to get commitment from very sexually attractive men. So then they have to figure out a way to become attracted to not so attractive men. I mean, if the point of marriage is sex, and once you’re married some guy is going to want to do it to you all the time, it’s better for the both of you if you’re actually attracted to him. But if sexual attraction were removed from the equation, a lot of women would find it very easy to pick a husband, because most women know that the world is filled with beta providers.

    A lot of “keep it real” dating advice for women sounds like “find unattractive men attractive.” The male translation would be “there are a lot of nice fat girls out there who would make wonderful wives. So why don’t you give some fat girls a chance and maybe they will start seeming thin to you after a while!” Most men won’t go for this, but shame, SHAAAAME! on all those entitlement princesses who want to be turned on by their future husbands. I’m sure I’m not the only woman who finds this attitude irritating and frustrating.

  18. piquant March 3, 2011 at 10:29 am #

    Women are definitely pickier, no argument there.

    The disney and boy-band fantasy machine has done its best to make women unrealistic.

    It has the same effect on women that porn has on men.

    The difference, however, is that porn is not socially acceptable, but pining for the Jonas Brothers is acceptable.

    Both are harmful.

  19. Wayfinder March 3, 2011 at 10:45 am #

    Well, maybe. There is a lot of conflicting advice put out by people with different agendas. As a counter-example I have recently seen several people tell men that they should be looking for character rather than a pretty face.

    My unconfirmed hunch is that the majority of beta men are that way because they were told that that was what women want. My own mother is under the impression that women just want someone who can understand them.

    I think the hidden assumption behind “keep it real” is that female attraction takes time and opportunity to develop, and those situations aren’t occurring by chance. I’m not sure that your pessimism is justified in making female attraction a black-and-white issue; you may never get the top alpha, but a beta-with-some-alpha qualities is probably findable.

    This is all from the outside, of course. I guess I’m still trying to wrap my head around what makes women tick.

  20. Learner March 3, 2011 at 10:51 am #

    Haley, can you tell just by looking at someone or emailing with them if you are sexually attracted to them? I have found that if I respect and admire the man for qualities other than looks, and enjoy his company that a little time cuddling on the couch tells the story for me about whether or not I am sexually attracted to him. Then after the “switch” is flipped for me the man becomes more and more sexually attractive to me.

  21. Learner March 3, 2011 at 10:55 am #

    Sorry, stupid iPhone cut me off…. What I was trying to say is that for me, attraction can definitely grow. Perhaps you ate cutting yourself off at your knees if you expect sexual attraction without any relating to eachother.

  22. Brendan March 3, 2011 at 11:45 am #

    Haley —

    I think a big part of the dilemma is that you seem to be pining for something that may be out of reach? It doesn’t sound fair, but life isn’t fair. Leaving out everything else on the table (character, career, values, religion, etc.), men are attracted to a higher number of women than women are to men — leaving the rest of that aside — just based on initial impressions (in the case of men, looks, in the case of women, that odd mix of looks, charm, etc. that we call “alpha” for shorthand). That is, there are far fewer men that are attractive in that initial, raw, visceral sense for women than is the case vice-versa. It just is that way. It isn’t “fair”, but it just is so. If all the women could be married to the men that women find sexually attractive in that initial, raw, visceral sense, we’d have to have institutionalized polygamy, because there are far too few men like that to meet the female demand — and that has always been the case, even though it’s probably worse today as men have been lowered in status while women’s status has risen.

    So then the issue becomes — what do you do about that? It seems like there are a few options.

    One is to hold out for a guy like that who has all the rest of the things you need as well. This is an understandable choice, albeit a low probability one, because the guys who have that *and* the other stuff you want (values, Christian, career, etc.) are almost all married by now in your age range (which I’m guessing is early 30s or right around 30). Many of the guys like that who are still available in this age range are players to some degree — and there still aren’t very many of them (by definition, there never *are* very many of such men). So the key question in choosing this option is whether you would prefer to be single than being with a man who is not igniting your initial, raw, visceral sexual attraction. Some women do indeed decide that — it doesn’t take much googling to read their stories on the internet — but the key is being comfortable with singleness as a possible result.

    Another option is to try dates with a few men who may not have that visceral spark, but who otherwise seem like fine men. This sounds unappealing to you, I understand, because you feel like it’s basically saying “forget about sexual attraction”, but it isn’t. What it recognizes is that, for quite a few women at least, sexual attraction kind of builds as they get to know a guy, if the other pieces are falling into place. A recent example of this was a selection of stories I was reading in some online newspaper recently about happy older couples who had been married for 50+ years. Many of the women admitted that they were not “initially attracted to” their husbands, but as they got to know them, they became attracted to them and then wanted to marry them. They agreed to dates with them because they seemed to have other good qualities, and they were open to seeing whether anything developed. Of course, it doesn’t *always* develop, but sometimes it does. When these women were young, as now, only a handful of women were able to snag the men all the women were swooning for. But that doesn’t mean these women married men to whom they weren’t attractive. It just means that their attraction develops over time based on how they actually related to these men. This correlates with the reality that female sexuality is closely tied to emotions.

    Does that refute Game? No. Game is intended to generate that initial, visceral, raw attraction — which is a strategy for men to generate and retain the attraction of women whom they would not otherwise initially attract in a marketplace where many women — including you, apparently — are putting a primary importance on this raw, visceral, initial attraction to men. If you can see that, and step aside from it, you would probably be better off. That probably won’t be terribly easy, because the culture — Christian and otherwise — screams at you that you shouldn’t approach it that way, but then again the secular culture screams at women that they shouldn’t even consider marrying a man they haven’t had sex with because they are taking the chance of marrying a bad lover — Christian women who are chaste sidestep that cultural meme, why not sidestep the other cultural meme that says that women need the initial, raw, visceral attraction for a relationship to be worthwhile, or that if she doesn’t have that she’ll never be attracted to him.

    You need to think a bit outside the box, here, I think, and also take a good long look at what is going on inside of you, what you really want, and whether you can realistically get it.

  23. Julie March 3, 2011 at 12:15 pm #

    What Brendan said. Another thing that made my search for a man complicated is that I really wanted someone who had high “psychological femininity.” Someone who I felt was my soulmate. I had a college boyfriend to whom I was extremely attracted, but I agonized over the fact that I just didn’t feel very connected to him emotionally and spiritually. However, the guys who I did have that deeper connection with didn’t always rev me up the same way in terms of physical chemistry–perhaps they had a bit less testosterone?

    I think what Brendan is suggesting is the best path for most women. Of course, you shouldn’t marry someone you have no attraction toward. But it wouldn’t hurt to get to know someone a bit before you decide for sure. And it’s probably wise to be open to marrying someone with whom you have a moderate chemistry, rather than holding out for something intense.

  24. Hope March 3, 2011 at 12:41 pm #

    @lifeinlonglegs, I’m not suggesting doing text sex with just any guy. But if a deep emotional connection has developed along with friendship and love, why not? It’s communicating honestly and openly with a man you cherish. Then again I’m not Christian, so maybe I don’t really understand.

    @Brendan/novaseeker(?), absolutely brilliant post. It is said that true love should be friendship lit on fire, and for many women, myself included, falling in love definitely takes time and involves getting to know a man better… much better.

    On the other hand, I don’t think that Haley is going after the raw initial attraction as you insinuate. Women do have an intuitive sense of what will probably work and what probably won’t work. Sometimes, especially as an unusual woman, it’s very difficult to meet men who “click” with you.

  25. Helvetica March 3, 2011 at 3:51 pm #

    If it weren’t for sex, dating for chaste Christian women wouldn’t be such a minefield.

    “Did he really just ask me to stop by his house and WHAT ON EARTH DOES THAT MEAN??”

    It is awkward to have to be like “ummm, I, like, er, don’t do that until I’m married….”

  26. Old Guy March 3, 2011 at 3:54 pm #

    Haley: Take none of the advice you’re getting. If you accept a man whose lead (I’m trying to talk Evangelical here) you can’t spontaneously accept, you will, in time, find yourself eating his soul for breakfast with a spoon. You won’t be able to stop yourself.

    Find your alpha.

  27. Julie March 3, 2011 at 4:55 pm #

    Old Guy, at what cost? If Haley wants to become a mother, she risks never becoming one the longer she waits, especially if what she’s waiting for is not realistic.

  28. y81 March 3, 2011 at 5:50 pm #

    I have never suggested that Haley (or anyone else) marry someone who doesn’t melt her butter. Indeed, I would rephrase Haley’s statement to say that without blowaway sex, marriage would be unbearable. What I have suggested is that (i) she dramatically expand the number of her male contacts, including dates with men who may not initially make her swoon and (ii) give up her rather unrealistic search for an aloof, psychologically manipulative man who is seeking a faithful marriage with a chaste Christian wife.

  29. Wayfinder March 3, 2011 at 6:23 pm #

    I’m getting a real pessimistic reading of all this, Haley, though I’m not sure if you meant it that way. Are there large numbers of beta men in your life that you’re not attracted to, or are you just assuming that the odds are against you?

    Why would she want to develop intimacy with a guy who isn’t committed to her? Is this really the only way that anyone can flirt anymore? Seems like a cop-out for both parties. She trades her sexuality for his attention, but is too afraid of losing him to make him commit first?

    I guess I’m not quite getting how your scenario helps. Is this for pre-date advertising her sexyness to attract attenion (and maybe a date)? Or while in a relationship (in which case why draw the line there)?

    The moral prohibition on sex doesn’t actually have much to do with sex itself, but is more about inappropriate intimacy and betraying past or future vows (1 Cor. 6:15-17, Mat. 5:27-29, if you want some references).

  30. Hope March 3, 2011 at 6:34 pm #

    @Wayfinder, how do people develop emotional intimacy if they never talk about their deepest and truest feelings? And in most healthy adults, sexual feelings are part of this and are normal. There is also a period of time when two people are getting to know each other, falling for each other but before serious commitments are exchanged.

    My husband and I did sexy talks during this time. Emotionally we had felt the other one was “the one,” and part of our very strong feelings for each other was sexual. It would have been dishonest to not talk about those feelings and pretend they didn’t exist. However, neither of us has a Christian background. In our case, I suspect (though I can’t know) that if I had never professed any sexual feelings for him, he probably would have thought I didn’t really want him, and wouldn’t have wanted to commit to me.

    Perhaps Christian men are really different.

  31. Brendan March 3, 2011 at 6:49 pm #

    It’s not that Christian men are different in general, Hope. It’s that there are real limits on extra-marital sexuality for faithful Christians. That doesn’t mean no talk about sex, however. It also doesn’t mean other forms of chaste non-sexual physical intimacy are out of bounds. I think there are quite a few ways that people can suss out attraction to each other sexually in ways that are non-sexual, as paradoxical as that seems.

  32. Wayfinder March 3, 2011 at 7:00 pm #

    I certainly never intended to imply not talking about sex at all, but “Sexting, cyber sex, phone sex and mutual fantasies” implies a graphic bluntness rather than just flirting, at least to my ear. I think a certain degree of intimacy is necessary in relationship forming, but not laying it all bare, as it were.

    Now admittedly, many Christian circles have taken this too far and made all talk of sex verboten. That’s one part of the church-beta problem that Haley is up against. Not to mention that virgins tend to be lousy at flirting and sexual talk in general.

    I don’t really see any good solution for this; individually its fixable, but as a community its difficult, and its impossible to know ahead of time what level of sexual interest the other party expects. Too much and you’ll chase them away, too little and they’ll think you’re not interested. Not that I think very many Christian guys of any stripe will be scared off by a female stating a sexual interest in him, but he will be concerned that if he expresses it back she’ll turn on him.

  33. Brendan March 3, 2011 at 7:08 pm #

    Yeah the sexting and so on is not really what I would expect and not what my own GF and I do — I think for faithful Christians that’s going to be uncomfortable in most cases.

  34. Hana March 3, 2011 at 7:35 pm #

    I attempted to write a comment here, but it got long, so I turned the comment into a blog post instead, since I’ve been planning to start a blog: http://asmanywaters.wordpress.com/

    For those who are interested, I was the one who rejected, firmly or not-so-firmly, the “NCEG.”

    Ooh…now you have to read the blog! ;)

  35. Hana March 3, 2011 at 7:40 pm #

    I wish the blog had a preview feature–this is my attempt to see if my display name now shows up as a link to my blog.

    Also, Brendan has a well-thought-out post, and the part about “thinking outside the box” is more or less the theme of what I wrote as well.

  36. Old Guy March 3, 2011 at 8:21 pm #

    Julie: I said to Haley “Find your Alpha” rather than “Find an Alpha” because a man’s attractiveness to women is less connected to his physical appearance than a woman’s attractiveness to men is connected to her physical appearance. If she doesn’t put overmuch stock in photos, there’ll be a guy, a real one.

    Nonetheless, if she settles for a man who seems to her a beta she’ll end up as some guy’s fifth horse(wo)man of the apocalypse.

  37. Brendan March 3, 2011 at 8:37 pm #

    Great post over at your blog, btw, Hana.

  38. lifeinlonglegs March 3, 2011 at 9:09 pm #

    Old Guy – I roared and heartily agree. You won’t have many babies if you’re so repulsed by your spouse you don’t want to consummate your marriage.

    “If all the women could be married to the men that women find sexually attractive in that initial, raw, visceral sense,”

    …. um, it is hard for many women to find someone she is attracted to at all, let alone in a raw sense: let me explain…

    Physical attraction for women is so much more than just ‘looks’ – we find a guy who looks good but he has a slimy vibe even though he’s a believer: we think he’s ugly because there is something oozing out of him in our discernment….[then it turns out he’s fooling around with young women in the congregation….] we find a guy who isn’t great looking but we’re willing to meet with him – it turns out he’s living with his mom who still does his laundry for him [no independence? mom issues? = ugly]. We meet a guy who has a great career, a reasonable physical appeal, and when we ask him about the Bible it becomes apparent he’s unversed: all the sudden, he’s ugly,too. We find a guy with a great spiritual life, leadership qualities, hard working, well mannered, likes us too…. but he’s financially cheap to the point of not taking care of himself. Is that how he’ll care for us? …who can live like that? …Ugly.

    When a woman says she’s not attracted to a man, she means she doesn’t RESPECT him enough to have sex with him. It’s not about physicality: it’s the whole package. ugly + other good things = wedding. ugly + other respect killers mixed with good things, and the wedding is off.

    SHOCKING NEWS: Looks alone aren’t a ‘deal breaker’ for women like they [of fatness] seem to be for men.

    Women HAVE to be attracted to someone but mostly, this translates out of respect for who the man is as a person – you can grow in attraction in a physical sense with a man you admire and respect – and it works reciprocally. When a woman loses respect for her man, her sex drive tanks. I lost respect for a man for something he wrote and LJBF’d the guy pronto after losing a large degree of respect for him.

    Men: if you want to attract women and have a great sex life be a respectable man. This doesn’t mean being a wimpering feminized yes-man: it means standing up for what is righteous at all cost. Ladies should look for ways to find respect our man rather than running him down in our minds like the [feminist] culture teaches us to. We should prophecy over him with our thoughts, words, and deed: speaking God’s truth and heart over him that he might be encouraged. I don’t think sex is fulfilling for a man if he notices his spouse is not attracted to him and ‘into it’. You should think he’s a king, and he should know it – in and out of the bedroom.

  39. lifeinlonglegs March 3, 2011 at 9:15 pm #

    Before the haterade gets poured on… I should clarify that I am NOT saying a guy has to be perfect or if you are ugly and have one bad quality you’re “out”…. no wedding for you!

    I’m saying that there are major deal breakers on which women ought not compromise [sleaze, a man who is still breastfeeding off his mother, financial irresponsibility – whether cheap or too freewheeling – or abusive tendencies, etc. which combined with ugly are lethal in terms of a specific woman’s attraction.

    we all have issues and so it is logical to expect something not so great in a partner – part of the beauty of growing in Christ is seeing his power to change us as we are obedient to Him…. but for women, a couple major issues is like being ugly AND fat is to [most] men. Does that translate?

  40. Hermes March 3, 2011 at 9:29 pm #

    The male translation would be “there are a lot of nice fat girls out there who would make wonderful wives. So why don’t you give some fat girls a chance and maybe they will start seeming thin to you after a while!”

    Boundless once ran a pair of articles by John Thomas arguing exactly that:

    Summary: standards of beauty are culturally determined, and thus the fact that men in our society like thin, young women is entirely arbitrary and is a product of Hollywood and the fashion industry. Men have both the ability and a moral obligation to will themselves to be attracted to fat, plain women and marry them.

  41. Aunt Haley March 3, 2011 at 10:06 pm #

    Boundless once ran a pair of articles by John Thomas arguing exactly that:

    Didn’t John Thomas once write a Boundless article about how he madly pursued his now-wife because he found her so beautiful?

  42. Hermes March 4, 2011 at 4:01 am #

    Haley, my mistake: the articles I posted were by Michael Lawrence, not John Thomas.

    I don’t remember the article you mention by Thomas, but in the ones I posted by Lawrence, he mentions that he got exactly what he had always wanted, physically speaking, in a wife.

  43. Will S. March 4, 2011 at 9:25 am #

    Speaking of Boundless, here’s some blog fodder:


  44. terry@breathinggrace March 4, 2011 at 10:41 am #

    My unconfirmed hunch is that the majority of beta men are that way because they were told that that was what women want.

    Yep. It’s true.

    As usual, Brendan’s take on all this is spot on and insightful.

    I think one should never underestimate the idea of a love that grows over time. I had that visceral reaction my husband at first, and we had a very volatile marriage in the beginning.

    It took a while to find a comfortable rhythm where things weren’t so charged all the time. There were times when that kind of intensity was wonderful, but times when it was gut-wrenching. Don’t let Hollywood sell you a bill of goods, folks. There’s a flip side to everything.

    The bottom line is that a man who exudes confidence is going to be attractive to women even if he isn’t dashingly handsome. Unfortunately, like the person said above, most men fall into beta mode because they have been lead to believe (mistakenly so) that it’s what most women want. Funny thing is, it’s the feminists that sold that bill of goods, and most of them don’t even like men.

    You traditional girls looking for love need to help these men understand that you want a guy with confidence and a bit of aloofness. Men who pour their hearts out the way women do are just not attractive to most women, especially in the beginning of a relationship when there’s no shared history and documented verification that a man has at least some alpha in him.

  45. CSPB March 4, 2011 at 1:24 pm #

    @lifeinlong legs
    I am singling you out. Your comment was particularly insightful and on target. You got brains and savvy. I’m going to generalize, but I think this describes you (and many of the women frequenting Haley’s blog):

    The HSE/HD Woman
    This type of woman is the dream of every man but not many men can actually deal with her. She has a very strong sexual drive backed up by a very good self-esteem. She is like a Ferrari with a strong motor and an experienced driver driving it.
    This type of woman will test her man – from the very beginning – for leadership qualities. She will be able to remain a good companion to him for as long as is the alpha in the relationship. One of the most distinctive traits of the HSE woman is the relative absence of self-destructiveness from her personality. However, her high level of energy means that she is not suitable for every man. She can be the ideal woman for men who are exceptionally strong in both mind and body.

    Excerpt from Practical Female Psychology for the Practical Man, by Joseph W. South, David Clare, Franco

    Watch this to see this type in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpo8RDyOEWY
    Patrese is so cool and devious…quiet ALPHA.

  46. CSPB March 4, 2011 at 1:25 pm #

    HSE = High Self Esteem
    HD = High Desire

  47. lifeinlonglegs March 5, 2011 at 10:57 am #

    CSPB I had a car ride like that but the man in question was just being bratty like a small child [and it wasn’t on a track or in a safe environment] rather than cheeky and manly [recording it – hilarious!] like Ricardo. In that instance it made me think less of him….

    Thanks for the compliment.

  48. Isaac Karth March 5, 2011 at 11:06 am #

    I think the subtext in the video is that Ricardo is a professional driver, so he’s not just going fast, he’s demonstrating his mastery of his special skills.

  49. y81 March 5, 2011 at 5:03 pm #

    It is safe to say that driving like that would NOT be a good tactic if you wanted to have sex with my wife. She would be angry for a long time, and when I say “a long time,” I am discussing a woman who still broods about the wrongs done to Denmark in the Schleswig-Holstein crisis.

    In contrast, I regret to say, driving like that would be a very good tactic if you wanted to have sex with my daughter.

  50. MW March 5, 2011 at 6:37 pm #

    Hey, LiLL your blog is gone. What gives?

  51. jack March 5, 2011 at 7:58 pm #

    Yeah, LiLL-

    Your heartfelt critiques of male shortcomings are sadly missed.

  52. lifeinlonglegs March 5, 2011 at 11:09 pm #

    Thanks Jack and MW. I was spending more time writing the blog than I was spending with God. I need to simplify a bit as I just got some contract work that requires more of my time and I’m in the middle of training for a half marathon plus battling a health issue [those two issues are slightly incompatible but I’m not giving up]. So, the blogging had to go. It’s recreational, sure, but it also takes a lot of maintenance. I could have kept it posted but I wouldn’t be able to post regularly and I don’t like doing things half heartedly. Maybe one day….

  53. CSPB March 6, 2011 at 7:29 am #

    CSPB I had a car ride like that but the man in question was just being bratty like a small child

    Well I am bratty but never like a small child. I will have fun, do a few shitties in the snow or so some slides in an empty parking lot. She can trust me or not. If not, then I have no need for such a woman in my life. In other words, it is a great test of the quality of a woman when a man does seemingly dangerous things in a safe manner and is totally in control.

    The real danger happens when she is yakking and nagging while he is in traffic because his attention is divided and her second guessing can drive a man batty! And what is it that many women think a man goes blind once entering a parking lot. She thinks that she must tell him where to park. For the sake of peace, a man should nip this in the bud and make her walk home if she insists on this behavior. And I DON’T care if she is only trying to help. She would ACTUALLY help by being silent and patient.

  54. Aunt Haley March 6, 2011 at 7:10 pm #

    The HSE/HD Woman
    This type of woman is the dream of every man but not many men can actually deal with her.

    This sounds like a euphemism for “difficult.”

  55. jack March 6, 2011 at 11:06 pm #

    I will miss the inventory of all the things I have done/am doing to devalue myself in the eyes of Christian women.

    So many DLVs, so little time.

  56. Double E March 7, 2011 at 1:59 am #


    I’ve read on the blog that you don’t know any single Christian men at your church. And your friends don’t know any single Christian men.

    Why are you still going to that church? Is there not even one other church in your area that has a theology with which you agree? Not even one?

    I’ll assume you are protestant. The mega-churches may have cheeky sermons but the small groups for singles are great. Though you are right about not many single men in Christian churches relative to the amount of single women.

    The Greek / Eastern Orthodox Church has many more single men than single women in regular attendance. I’ve seen this in America, Argentina, and Japan. But the liturgical barrier is very high for a Protestant. The last church I attended was a small Baptist church that had seven single girls and three single men. Not good odds for the girls.

    Are you in a small town? You might want to consider a larger city in the heartland. Texas is great. No shortage of eligible men there.

    You’ve got to get probability on your side here. You pick what you want and go to the place where it is most likely to exist.

    Have you ever considered going back to school and taking classes in a male-dominated field? Very few of the engineers with whom I went to school were the stereotypical nerdy type. And the very few women there both undergraduate and graduate level had no shortage of dates– with men with high earning power.

    I don’t hear you talk about your own looks much but is seems to be implied that you think yourself plain. Femininity and the right style can take a woman up two or three points depending on how well she works it. Living in Japan, I can tell you that there are just as many naturally plain girls here as anywhere else but Japanese girls will eat a typical western woman’s lunch anytime just from capitalizing on that. You have to take a trip over here sometime to see it personally. Forget the harajuku girls on youtube or maiko dressed in kimono– I mean just regular, run of the mill Japanese girls here.

    My fiance who is Chinese thought herself plain. She may well have a plain and ordinary look naturally but I’ve never seen her not dressed feminine and sexy. Not an ounce of sluttiness, and no skin showing, but when she walks in the room every man’s head turns to watch her. The one guy this weekend who literally leaned out of the restaurant booth to watch my fiance walk by was hilarious. (Beijing, not Tokyo, wouldn’t happen so obviously in Tokyo).

    Yes, we live in an anti-commitment generation and those who are looking for commitment find slim pickins. But from your writings, you sound like you will make a great wife but the pieces just aren’t coming together. I highly suspect that not being in a place where you will meet men is the primary limiting factor. I know also that a naturally beautiful woman gets all the attention she can handle and then some. So if you aren’t getting attention naturally, it may be time to change up your style. It really matters. And it really works. And you don’t have to excite lust to do it.

  57. CSPB March 7, 2011 at 5:02 am #

    The HSE/HD Woman
    This sounds like a euphemism for “difficult.”

    Yes, to many men she would be difficult. A woman like this will be emotional and will do lots of shit testing. This is so she can feel that her man is strong enough to protect her and handle her. If such a woman is not kept well sexed and know that her husband is dominant, she will become contemptuous. The reason she does not bristle at dominance is that she really can do it on her own and has high self esteem. She is comforted rather than threatened by a stronger man. She has no need to berate others so she can feel better about herself. Her shit tests are not to bring down a man but to make sure he is strong enough for her to respect.

    When I was younger I saw creatures such as this and was always afraid to approach. I pined after such a woman, but always thought I did not have what it takes to have one, so I admired from afar. How could I handle such a woman since I didn’t think I was man enough?

    So after learning Game, and encountering a few of this type of woman, I find they are not that difficult. In fact they are quite easy to be around, but a man must know how to ride the emotional waves and not get sucked under. She needs emotional support and she cannot be tamed, but she can be content. The HSE/HD is quite rare and most are quite intelligent. They often have baggage and were abused but refused to become a victim. They often don’t get along all that well with other women. They inherently trust men. Their tingles can get so strong, they do wanton things. They know this and seek a man to help them satisfy their needs but enforce boundaries that they cannot due to their tendency to get overpowering tingles. For a man with good Game, she is putty in his hands and she knows it. When tingles don’t overwhelm her, she tests to know that she can be safe with him when her passion overwhelms.

    The HSE/HD is drawn to an Alpha man but if he is a womanizer, it usually ends in divorce. If he turns out to be an insecure controlling asshole, it ends in divorce. This woman is ideal for a Christian Alpha that holds his integrity as more important than his woman. She wants to go on his adventure and does not want to lead her own adventure. If he cannot lead or leads wrongly she is plenty strong enough to separate when her tingles subside.

    A docile HSE/HD woman does not exist. Women are not made to order, so it is best to figure out the modus operandi of the type she is. It is a package deal.

  58. y81 March 7, 2011 at 6:21 am #

    O, Double E, you are wasting your time. Haley does not want constructive suggestions, she wants to complain. She also does not want to hear that looks per se are not particularly important in attracting men, because then she would have to analyze her own mental and emotional attributes.

    BTW, I give up blog reading for Lent, so I may not visit this site again until Easter, but I will definitely want to know if Haley has managed to round up 12 dates by then!

  59. Aunt Haley March 7, 2011 at 10:27 am #

    Will S.–
    Speaking of Boundless, here’s some blog fodder:

    I had seen that post and have been meaning to address it in a future post. I think Badger is planning a write-up on it, too. Good times!

  60. theprivateman March 8, 2011 at 8:37 am #

    “My unconfirmed hunch is that the majority of beta men are that way because they were told that that was what women want.”

    Or, they asked Mom for advice:


  61. Badger March 8, 2011 at 9:47 am #


    That was a great post. It’s part and parcel to “that’s what we were told.” Guys really need to get away from the pretty lies, and it’s a damn shame that the religious community seems invested in perpetuating feminized falsehoods.

    Instead of gentle lions they raise men to be toothless cubs.

  62. y81 March 8, 2011 at 3:59 pm #

    You mean, if only our churches would shape up, they could produce young men who boinked more girls than the private man got to in his 20s? On their way to becoming 40-something divorced and bitter losers? Why would God want us to do that?

  63. theprivateman March 8, 2011 at 6:49 pm #

    “On their way to becoming 40-something divorced and bitter losers?”

    Shaming language.

    You lose.

  64. lifeinlonglegs March 8, 2011 at 6:57 pm #

    “She needs emotional support and she cannot be tamed, but she can be content.”
    I feel like I just got to exhale for the first time in my life.

  65. Rex March 24, 2011 at 10:28 am #

    Sex has a lot to do with how well the marriage or a relationship goes. If it is bad, the people will not stay together or one of them will definitely go astray.

  66. Kel April 5, 2011 at 5:19 pm #

    I just stumbled across this and have a completely different POV on the original statement.

    I think you’re saying that 21st century dating expects sex, is fraught with sex, and is a component of every “healthy” relationship.

    Unless you happen to be Christian and living a chaste life and then there’s something wrong with you. If you remove the expectation of sex from the dating equation, everything becomes so much easier.

  67. lifeinlonglegs January 6, 2012 at 5:42 pm #

    “it turns out he’s living with his mom who still does his laundry for him [no independence? mom issues? = ugly”

    I have to retract my words here. Dead wrong. I’ve since met a few men who live with Mom, who are doing so to be responsible and that is a DHV: perfectly fine. Clarification: The concern is more about the kind of guy with no ambition to ever leave his mother’s side; or the guy with no emotional ability to “leave and cleave”, who is unhealthily emotionally attached to his Mom and will not be able to draw lines with his mother when, for example, she’s trying to override our parenting decisions. Also, on some level: If a man can’t say no to mom, he will can’t say no to his woman, either – and no decent woman wants to wear the pants.


  1. Not All People Are Like That? | As Many Waters - March 3, 2011

    […] reading the recent posts on Haley’s Halo, especially the most recent post, “If it weren’t for sex…”, I’ve been thinking about […]

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