Alpha Christian dating.

19 Apr

I feel like I’ve been reading a lot on game blogs lately how important it is to push a girl further sexually than she professes to want to go.  The M.O. is basically that of “she’ll have sex with you if you push, then back off, then push harder.”  And it obviously works, if the stories being recounted in the comments are true.  Of course, these successes tend to occur when the woman puts herself in an already compromising position – she’s looking for sex but doesn’t want to admit it (in case the man turns out to be a beta), she’s drunk, or she’s at his apartment late at night just for the naked but chaste cuddles in his bed.

Christian dating, or at least the ideal of Christian dating, is the polar opposite of these scenarios.  Men are typically urged to acquiesce to whatever the woman wants, except in the case of sex, in which case the man should “man up” and draw a big chastity line in the sand.  If women are the gatekeepers, then men should be the gatekeepers’ keepers (in a kindly, protective, safekeeping way, not in an evil, domineering way).  I think this attitude springs from the idea that women are naturally more moral and sexually reticent than men, yet women are also naturally very susceptible to pressure to put out.  Because women are more moral, it is men’s duty to support women’s superior morality, lest the woman become immoral.  It’s all a part of being a leader and manning up and being intentional.

So if Christian men are enjoined from sex or any physical escalation that the woman claims not to want, and Christian men are not to take advantage of alcohol, a bar setting, sexual innuendo, and being alone with a woman in his or her home, then how can a Christian man impress a woman with his alpha bona fides?

I’m sure that if you posed this question to the Boundless types, they would scoff at the idea that a real man even needs alcohol et al. to accomplish his mission.  Real men impress through their superior character and leadership skills!  But how do you do that when you have none of the common cultural tools in your chest?  Here are the most common ones:

  • Join the church band/be a worship leader.  Playing an instrument is always a DHV.  Guitar is the most common, but if you’re good at the piano or keyboard, even better.  Plus, you’re just more visible to more women.  (DLV:  working the sound board or the PowerPoint slides.)
  • Teach Sunday School or work with the youth group.  Many Christian women start feeling their ovaries quiver when they encounter a man who’s good with kids and wants to teach them the faith.  However, make sure that your bonding with kids is over cool stuff, like sports, music, or rough-and-tumble play, and not, say, Star Trek.
  • Go on a foreign missions trip.  Missions trips are very quick ways to prove your Christian bona fides, but make sure that you have a good story to tell when you get back, preferably if it includes some sort of Providential intervention.  (In such cases, it is okay to cry when talking about your experience.  Africa changed you.)
  • Join a small group.  You’re not just a Sunday Christian, and you desire the intimacy and learning that a small group affords.
  • Pray out loud in group settings.  Possibly the ultimate DHV.  Offer to bless the meal.  Offer to close.  Be the first to jump in with the popcorn prayer.  Just don’t fall into the habit of following a script, or say “Lord” or “Father” every five words.
  • Lead social gospel outings.  Be the point person for the soup kitchen, or the clean-up trip, or the day at Habitat for Humanity, or ministering at Skid Row, or cause du jour is.  And be organized.  It’s no good to lead if you’re terrible at administration and planning ahead.

Generally speaking, Christian women – at least those brought up in church culture – are highly attuned to displays of visible, acknowledged leadership.  It’s not always enough to be the alpha of your clique of friends.  Then again, in a church setting, it’s hard to be the alpha of your clique if you’re not doing at least one of the above.

If you happen to score a first date with a GCG (Good Christian Girl), the best default game plan is to play the part of a gentleman.  Open doors, pull the seat out for her, grab the check before it burns a hole in the tablecloth, compliment her outfit (“I like your dress” is fine, but “you look gorgeous” is a little too much, too soon), pray over the meal, don’t order alcohol, and DON’T TAKE HER TO A BAR.  Much of the time, a GCG, especially if she has already graduated from college, is screening for husband (and future father) candidates, which means she expects to be treated like a lady.  If you fail in this department, I can almost guarantee that her friends will deem you unworthy in the inevitable post-game analysis.  If you fail and she likes caddishness, then she’s probably not a true GCG, even if her dad is a deacon, a pastor, a missionary, or an elder.  Oftentimes PKs and MKs are the worst of all, because they get off on rebelling.

At the end of the date, don’t go for the kiss.  Don’t even try.  The only girls who will hold it against you are the ones who are used to cads pushing for more.  Be different and DHV yourself.  Plus, with a GCG, it’s better to let her hamster run for a month or two, or even longer, wondering why you won’t kiss her, than to try too early and confirm that all you want is sex.  Women love the anticipation and the angst of not knowing when they can be treated to your puckered lips.  (However, they should feel relatively assured that it will happen at some point.)

Above all, TREAT EVERY WOMAN AS IF SHE WERE A 10.  This goes for old ladies, fat girls, plain girls, and whatever else isn’t your type.  If you get a reputation for only being nice and friendly to the hotties, it will take a lot to scrub “shallow” and “insincere” from your record.  Jesus loves the plain girls just as much as He loves the hot ones, so you should, too.  Being genuinely nice to the unlovelies is a huge DHV.

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47 Responses to “Alpha Christian dating.”

  1. Eumaios April 19, 2011 at 4:41 pm #

    April Fool’s was a couple of weeks ago.

  2. Julie April 19, 2011 at 4:57 pm #

    The Christian men I dated had no problem pushing the physical boundaries….

  3. Silas Reinagel April 19, 2011 at 5:19 pm #

    Hahahaha! Hilarious!

  4. enna April 19, 2011 at 5:50 pm #

    DLV: working the sound board or the PowerPoint slides.

    Au contraire! Sound guys (provided they’re competent) usually possess technical knowledge and skill that, to this music geek at least, counts as a DHV. Powerpoints, on the other hand, not so much.

  5. Toz April 19, 2011 at 7:11 pm #

    Funny!

    FYI, in order to become the worship leader, you usually have to start at the power point slides, then the sound board, then the backup singer/instrument then finally leader, so it’s part of the progression. And yes, I speak from experience.

    Speaking as a former single beta church guy, I can tell you that lack of physical escalation on a GCG you’re dating drives her bonkers. It used to confuse me that it would make them want to escalate physically so much more, but now I know why. They saw me as higher status because I held out. Strange how it all works.

    I think you’re missing a few:

    – Lead a bible study/cell group/small group, especially men’s groups
    – Join the church staff in any capacity
    – Become a pastor
    – Beat the heck out of all the other guys at any/every sport at church outings

  6. Ceer April 19, 2011 at 7:15 pm #

    Quite often, I’m asked if I’m a Christian man. Sometimes, it’s even before I say word one about anything religious. I assume it’s in the way I treat people.

    Unfortunately, that hasn’t resulted in any girlfriends as hot as a 8, much less a 10.

    So for me, I guess I should try opening up with a cocky/funny neg, tease, neg, strike alpha pose. Might as well try something.

  7. Aunt Haley April 19, 2011 at 7:30 pm #

    Toz–
    – Join the church staff in any capacity

    Even church janitor or church groundskeeper?

    Ceer–
    Get a puppy and take it to church with you. Or a bunny. Bunnies are chick crack, too.

    So for me, I guess I should try opening up with a cocky/funny neg, tease, neg, strike alpha pose.

    Is cocky/funny the holy grail of game? Guys are always going on and on and on about having cocky/funny at their disposal, yet not a lot of guys are actually really good at it, at least not judging by anecdotes in blog comments.

  8. lifeinlonglegs April 19, 2011 at 8:03 pm #

    “she’s looking for sex but doesn’t want to admit it (in case the man turns out to be a beta), she’s drunk, or she’s at his apartment late at night just for the naked but chaste cuddles in his bed.”

    umm… what???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously. Any ‘Christian’ who acts like that needs to give her head a shake and seriously question her salvation before God.

  9. Anonymous April 19, 2011 at 8:37 pm #

    Hard to tell if this is serious or satire.

  10. Aunt Haley April 19, 2011 at 9:25 pm #

    Anonymous–
    Why wouldn’t this be serious? This is a road map to becoming a Boundless engagement story.

  11. Ceer April 20, 2011 at 4:30 am #

    @Haley

    It’s because those who can master cocky/funny seem to have a tenfold increase in their game success. Granted, I’m naturally terrible at cocky/funny. That’s why I need practice.

    Also, “naked but chaste” seems to be a great way for some people to wind up with a christian child… before christian marriage.

  12. Lover of Wisdom April 20, 2011 at 10:02 am #

    “Join the church band/be a worship leader. Playing an instrument is always a DHV. Guitar is the most common, but if you’re good at the piano or keyboard, even better. Plus, you’re just more visible to more women. (DLV: working the sound board or the PowerPoint slides.)”

    And play that awful adult contemporary music every weekend? No thanks!

    “Teach Sunday School or work with the youth group. Many Christian women start feeling their ovaries quiver when they encounter a man who’s good with kids and wants to teach them the faith. However, make sure that your bonding with kids is over cool stuff, like sports, music, or rough-and-tumble play, and not, say, Star Trek.”

    I don’t know. My gay-dar goes off when guys want to teach the younger children at Sunday school or elementary school. Why does a guy want to hang around other adult’s bratty and annoying children for any length of time? I do believe in mentorship, however.

    “Go on a foreign missions trip. Missions trips are very quick ways to prove your Christian bona fides, but make sure that you have a good story to tell when you get back, preferably if it includes some sort of Providential intervention. (In such cases, it is okay to cry when talking about your experience. Africa changed you.)”

    But we are talking about the one or two week (vacations) mission trips, right? Those gives you bona fides will not scaring off the ladies with the thought that they are going to have to live in a jungle if they marry you.

    “Join a small group. You’re not just a Sunday Christian, and you desire the intimacy and learning that a small group affords.”

    My small group is made of married couples, though I am good friends with them and have known them since they were single. I don’t know if small groups DHV, but they are good for many other reasons.

    “Pray out loud in group settings. Possibly the ultimate DHV. Offer to bless the meal. Offer to close. Be the first to jump in with the popcorn prayer. Just don’t fall into the habit of following a script, or say “Lord” or “Father” every five words.”

    I don’t know. This, and the other suggestions strike me as Ned Flanders-ish.

    “Lead social gospel outings. Be the point person for the soup kitchen, or the clean-up trip, or the day at Habitat for Humanity, or ministering at Skid Row, or cause du jour is. And be organized. It’s no good to lead if you’re terrible at administration and planning ahead.”

    I’d say that’s right. But still, a lot of the guys that I find doing this seem so boring and Ned Flanders-ish.

  13. Aunt Haley April 20, 2011 at 10:48 am #

    Lover of Wisdom–
    My gay-dar goes off when guys want to teach the younger children at Sunday school or elementary school. Why does a guy want to hang around other adult’s bratty and annoying children for any length of time?

    It sounds like you think that only women should be around young(er) children. Is that really the best thing for kids? In my experience, male teachers, provided they’re not Ned Flanders types, are wildly popular with children of any age.

    Also, Ned Flanders would Flanderize everything he did, no matter what it was. If you’re super Flanders-y, leading group prayer may only result in a marginal improvement with the ladies, but it’s still an improvement. And Ned Flanders types are usually the first to get married.

  14. Anonymous April 20, 2011 at 11:22 am #

    Breakdown of what is good and bad about this post, if you were to take it as serious dating advice.

    1. “Christian dating, or at least the ideal of Christian dating, is the polar opposite of these scenarios.”

    The “Christian” attitudes in this paragraph are obviously wrong. Women aren’t more moral than men, just pickier.

    2. “I’m sure that if you posed this question to the Boundless types, they would scoff at the idea that a real man even needs alcohol et al. to accomplish his mission.”

    Everything in this paragraph is actually very good advice. It is an extremely good idea to be a leader in church. All of the things listed are, if not necessary, something close to necessary, though they are not sufficient. We’ve all known leader guys at church who had no or rather unattractive girlfriends.

    3. “If you happen to score a first date with a GCG (Good Christian Girl), the best default game plan is to play the part of a gentleman.”

    None of this gentlemanly stuff is necessary. Don’t be a total dick or a tightwad, of course, but you really don’t need to open doors, pay for everything etc. It just really doesn’t matter.

    4. “At the end of the date, don’t go for the kiss. Don’t even try.”

    It is better to wait for a month or so before trying to kiss a hardcore Christian girl. Otherwise she will think you are a total horndog.

    5. “Above all, TREAT EVERY WOMAN AS IF SHE WERE A 10.”

    Well, I don’t know if I’d phrase it like this, but you should talk to and be nice to everyone. Just talking to and being nice to the hot girls will get you labelled as a horndog. Especially in a social circle, you want to create a buzz among all the girls.

  15. AM April 20, 2011 at 12:26 pm #

    well i play keyboard, but if you’re someone who wants to pick something up, i’d recommend drums. All the drummers i’ve known are total badasses :)

    as for the other things… generally seems to have the right idea, but for the male readers I’d say don’t bother with the specifics and the reasoning (no offense to the author, but she’s seeing things through her own lens sometimes)

    the good advice can be summed up as stand tall, proud and manly… think about the manly stories of Jesus (ripping up the temple market tables, standing up to angry crowds of people, never taking crap from Pharisees, defending the sinful woman), Peter/Paul/apostles (big time leaders, not afraid to get into trouble, completely unconcerned with worldly trapping), and that’s a good model for any man, Christian or not

    modern day christianity is too concerned with everyone being POLITE, in the manosphere language thats why all the men have been betafied. you can be a good strong christian man without being POLITE, esp considering that polite is not the first thing that comes to mind when i think of the manly dudes we should be modeling our lives after

  16. Langobard April 20, 2011 at 12:59 pm #

    I think this attitude springs from the idea that women are naturally more moral and sexually reticent than men, yet women are also naturally very susceptible to pressure to put out. Because women are more moral, it is men’s duty to support women’s superior morality, lest the woman become immoral. It’s all a part of being a leader and manning up and being intentional.

    Haley – excellent, prescient observation on your part there.

    SO much of this nonsensical attitude that has infiltrated and corrupted the Church is, in fact, not Christian but Gnostic.

    It also contradicts what the Bible actually has to say, since nowhere is it to be found in our Holy Book that women are in any way morally superior to men.

    The Lord’s word is absolutely adamant that all human beings, man and woman alike, are born of Original Sin, and no amount of puritanical Victorianism or Feminism (which in practice is a form of neo-Feminism) will alter or change this timeless reality.

  17. Langobard April 20, 2011 at 1:06 pm #

    …puritanical Victorianism or Feminism (which in practice is a form of neo-Feminism)…

    That is, Feminism is a form (a very debased one at that) of neo-Victorianism.

  18. Ceer April 20, 2011 at 1:26 pm #

    Women are not naturally any more moral than men. In fact, I’d say they were a lot worse.

    Think of all the people who died in the abortion epidemic since the early 1970’s. Then try to imagine how any group of men could kill this many people in polite society, much less get away it without having the state on top of them.

  19. Helvetica April 20, 2011 at 3:17 pm #

    This was so funny! And so painfully true.

    I currently go to a megachurch wherein the men are awesome (and married) and the women all suck, and they only allow male staff members (w00t!!) except for teachers in the attached Christian school. Still slightly toungue-in-cheek, here are some more Christian alpha things I have seen done:

    – hold a men’s only conference, about how manly a man Jesus was – I think one is called Dust of the Rabbi?
    – hold a men’s only retreat and do manly stuff like fly fishing. Better yet, run the camp where they have such retreats.
    – be a fan of Mark Driscoll
    – coach a kid’s sport at the school
    – you’ve heard of Women’s pastors and Children’s pastors, how about a Men’s pastor?
    – argue with the preacher about his overly feminized teachings
    – be one of the scary guys who hang in a group in the back.
    – make it clear to the ladies that you aren’t here to find a wife, you are here for God, because if you weren’t there for God then you wouldn’t be caught dead in a church.
    – run the church radio station (girls love DJs)

    BTW, the church facilities manager is a very DHV position, but only if you have muscles and get your hands dirty. If you cell number is all over everyone’s bulletin board, that is DHV.

  20. The Man Who Was . . . April 20, 2011 at 5:37 pm #

    Then try to imagine how any group of men could kill this many people in polite society, much less get away it without having the state on top of them.

    Uh, men tend to be more pro-abortion than women. And men in history have killed a plenty. I’ve seen no evidence that women are worse than men.

  21. Aunt Haley April 20, 2011 at 6:50 pm #

    Anonymous–
    None of this gentlemanly stuff is necessary. Don’t be a total dick or a tightwad, of course, but you really don’t need to open doors, pay for everything etc. It just really doesn’t matter.

    I don’t know what kinds of girls you’ve been dating, but all of my friends will give a negative review to a man who doesn’t act like a traditional gentleman on a date. Conversely, they act impressed when a man does act like a traditional gentleman. And these are all GCGs, and I doubt they are outliers.

    AM–
    Please be bothered to use proper capitalization.

    Helvetica–
    Good list!

  22. Ceer April 20, 2011 at 6:55 pm #

    [quote]Uh, men tend to be more pro-abortion than women. And men in history have killed a plenty. I’ve seen no evidence that women are worse than men.
    [/quote]

    A quick google search says otherwise. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/abortion_poll030122.html It must be within your social circle.

    Also, EVERY abortion in this country requires a woman’s approval. Legally, male opinion on the matter counts for nothing.

  23. The Man Who Was . . . April 20, 2011 at 8:14 pm #

    It must be within your social circle.

    Nope, and most polls have said otherwise.

  24. Hermes April 20, 2011 at 8:40 pm #

    Guitar is the most common, but if you’re good at the piano or keyboard, even better.

    Hahaha. Once, on Boundless, Ted Slater made a comment implying that his “courtship story” was one that could be achieved by any man. I left a comment saying, weren’t you a musician in your church’s worship band as well as other bands, something women go gaga over? He replied, women don’t go gaga over keyboard players.

    Full disclosure: I was actually a music major with piano concentration as an undergrad, but I never really learned how to improvise/play pop styles enough to play in a band, and there aren’t many venues for busy medical students to very amateurishly perform classical music.

    I agree that guitar is the best; those guys are simply the most visible. And the instrument is portable so you can bring it on retreats and camping trips, to people’s houses, etc.

    DLV: working the sound board or the PowerPoint slides.

    One of the guys in my church who works the sound board is quite a ladies’ man. He always seems to have a cute young girlfriend. He’s kind of a very smooth-talking, oily, salesman-type guy, and not particularly alpha, but he’s very good at getting women to keep their attention on him. Granted, though 25 he acts in many ways like a 17-year-old: name-dropping and bragging about his connections at church through running the sound board, bragging about modifying his car, interruping conversations by showing people pictures of cars he thinks are cool on his iPhone, etc. Dismayingly, though I find it frustrating, girls (and most guys) are happy to give him their attention and don’t seem to find it annoying or cloying. There’s just something very smooth about the way he does it.

    OTOH, on of the other guys who worked the sound board until he recently moved away was a grotesquely obese, horribly socially awkward omega.

  25. Badger April 20, 2011 at 11:04 pm #

    “Why wouldn’t this be serious? This is a road map to becoming a Boundless engagement story.”

    You’re a slick one, Aunt Haley.

  26. Badger April 20, 2011 at 11:08 pm #

    “None of this gentlemanly stuff is necessary. Don’t be a total dick or a tightwad, of course, but you really don’t need to open doors, pay for everything etc. It just really doesn’t matter.”

    Yes. If the girl thinks you’re decently hot, she won’t get her panties in a wad about doors, checks, etc.

    “Above all, TREAT EVERY WOMAN AS IF SHE WERE A 10. ”

    I think the point here is correct but the implementation is wrong. Short shrift to the uglies is bad game, but men should treat every woman like she’s a 6 and has to prove herself to the dude. Guys: you are the prize. (And in the church scene, full of marriage-horny women surrounded by eunuched betas, a man who’s DTM IS a prize.)

  27. Badger April 20, 2011 at 11:14 pm #

    “I don’t know what kinds of girls you’ve been dating, but all of my friends will give a negative review to a man who doesn’t act like a traditional gentleman on a date. Conversely, they act impressed when a man does act like a traditional gentleman. And these are all GCGs, and I doubt they are outliers.”

    I’m asking strictly for informational purposes, but how’s that working out for them? In my general experience, women who kick up a fuss about “gentlemen” and pedestalization tend to have less satisfying love lives than women who learn to see the good in a situation and don’t judge a man’s character by whether he pulls the chair out.

    I don’t get what I’m seeing – Boundlessland is full of women complaining that they can’t find a man who wants to marry them, then they turn around and act like they are doing the man a favor by deigning to go out with him. Am I reading this wrong?

  28. Aunt Haley April 20, 2011 at 11:37 pm #

    Hermes–
    Ted Slater thinks a lot of things that don’t relate well to reality. He probably thinks that Josh Harris had no advantages in finding a wife, either.

    One of the guys in my church who works the sound board is quite a ladies’ man.

    Every church (or any social organization) has a smarmy douchenozzle who is inexplicably popular.

    Badger–
    In my general experience, women who kick up a fuss about “gentlemen” and pedestalization tend to have less satisfying love lives than women who learn to see the good in a situation and don’t judge a man’s character by whether he pulls the chair out.

    Acting like a gentleman isn’t an automatic win. The douches and the gentlemen have all been strike-outs for my friends. But the way you’re framing not doing all the gentlemanly things makes it seem like a man’s shit test to a woman. Most Christian girls will interpret a man’s acting like a gentleman to be a sign of leadership and caring, so when he doesn’t do any of the nice extras typically associated with dating, it’s a sign of bad manners, bad upbringing, selfishness, and immaturity. Ideally, a man should pull out the chair, open the door, and pick up the check because that’s his thing, it’s a part of his character, he doesn’t sweat it, and he’s inviting the girl into his world. Not “I’m afraid you won’t like me if I don’t do this” and not “by not doing these things I’m testing you to see how entitled you are.”

  29. Langobard April 21, 2011 at 1:08 pm #

    Acting like a gentleman isn’t an automatic win. The douches and the gentlemen have all been strike-outs for my friends. But the way you’re framing not doing all the gentlemanly things makes it seem like a man’s shit test to a woman. Most Christian girls will interpret a man’s acting like a gentleman to be a sign of leadership and caring, so when he doesn’t do any of the nice extras typically associated with dating, it’s a sign of bad manners, bad upbringing, selfishness, and immaturity. Ideally, a man should pull out the chair, open the door, and pick up the check because that’s his thing, it’s a part of his character, he doesn’t sweat it, and he’s inviting the girl into his world. Not “I’m afraid you won’t like me if I don’t do this” and not “by not doing these things I’m testing you to see how entitled you are.”

    ___

    Well, this also depends on what level the relationship is between the man and woman in question.

    If they are in some kind of ongoing relationship, committed or otherwise, then perhaps the traditional courtship behavior is warranted and appropriate, and will be duly appreciated by the woman, particularly so if she is a sincere Christian…

    but..

    if this is just the first, second or third date, than it can be easily construed as overkill, or at the least, ‘trying too hard’ on the man’s part, especially if he is foolish enough to take a lady out on a dinner date early on, before he is sure that there is something meaningful between himself and the woman he desires (ie – ‘chemistry’).

    Nothing, and I mean nothing reeks of clueless beta provider more than throwing money and resources at a woman who you (as a man) are not even sure she genuinely likes, and, most importantly, is attracted to you.

    This applies just as much to a nice Christian girl as it does any other female, since we all know that even Christians are born with the same genetic hard-wiring as anyone else… and especially since as genuine Christians we understand that all human beings are born with original sin.

    In other words, no amount of ‘courtly, gentlemanly behavior’ will generate or be the sole, or even primary, catylist for female attraction towards a man — however, of course, it may serve to enhance the attraction a woman already has for a particular man.

    SO, moral of the story is that a man, especially a Christian one, would be very wise to save the traditional, courtly behavior for a woman who genuinely has earned his affections and respect.

  30. Anonymous April 21, 2011 at 2:19 pm #

    Langobard:

    Nice clarification. If the girl is talking to her friends about things like whether you picked up the check or held open the door, it is because you have failed at some other, more fundamental level. As I said, you just need to not come off as really cheap or a major jerk. All else is post facto hamster rationalization.

    I’ve never noticed a correlation in church circles between a guy’s gentlemanliness and the hotness of his wife or girlfriend, and I’ve never noticed any correlation between my success dating church girls and my gentlemanliness on the date either.

  31. Langobard April 21, 2011 at 6:40 pm #

    Langobard:

    Nice clarification. If the girl is talking to her friends about things like whether you picked up the check or held open the door, it is because you have failed at some other, more fundamental level.

    Thank you Anon, and yes, if the lady in question is more concerned about these dating ‘protocols’ rather than the actual man that she went on the date with, then this certainly does not bode well for the future of their relationship — if indeed a relationship will in fact form in the first place.

    I’ve never noticed a correlation in church circles between a guy’s gentlemanliness and the hotness of his wife or girlfriend, and I’ve never noticed any correlation between my success dating church girls and my gentlemanliness on the date either.

    I as well never noticed much of a correlation either, and in fact noticed more of the opposite, sadly (then again, nearly all Churches in America are bastions of feminist Gnosticism – with the exceptional rarity being genuinely Biblically-centered – so their ways are the ways of this fallen world – not the ways of the Lord).

  32. Badger April 21, 2011 at 7:29 pm #

    Langobard and Anonymous have it right. If she’s complaining about lack of chivalrous gestures,

    “The douches and the gentlemen have all been strike-outs for my friends.”

    This just tells me

  33. Badger April 21, 2011 at 7:32 pm #

    Shoot, hit the wrong button.

    Langobard and Anonymous have it right. If she’s complaining about lack of chivalrous gestures, she’s looking for a rational reason to justify her visceral sense that she doesn’t want you. Nothing really wrong with that, but let’s not put the cart before the horse and tell guys if they up their chivalry girls will like them. If the gina don’t tingle, extra politeness just delays your execution.

    “The douches and the gentlemen have all been strike-outs for my friends.”

    This backs up my point, just tells me that gentlemanly or not gentlemanly gives no information as to whether the guy gets further with the woman.

    I’m not advocating rudeness, I just think most guys are better off investing in more game than in upping the chivalry (most men I know are adequately polite to begin with). In a way, game teaches politeness too, it teaches men how to control frame and hold their emotions properly so they don’t have outbursts of anger or sadness in public.

  34. Langobard April 21, 2011 at 7:53 pm #

    …If she’s complaining about lack of chivalrous gestures, she’s looking for a rational reason to justify her visceral sense that she doesn’t want you.

    Bingo.

    Nothing really wrong with that, but let’s not put the cart before the horse and tell guys if they up their chivalry girls will like them.

    As well Badger, if dating protocols and chivalrous gestures are so important, as I said before more important than the primal level of attraction our hypothetical lady feels for flesh-n-blood man she went on the date with, especially whether or not he pays, or, even worse, how much he spends, well, this certainly can be a foreboding sign, since, even if she is willing to continue seeing him she is, in fact, sizing up his provider qualities (which are rather beta) rather than his masculine, dominant, Alpha ones.

    Which of course goes against the ultimate point of this whole thread discussion.

  35. Langobard April 21, 2011 at 8:10 pm #

    [spam resolved.]

  36. Ceer April 21, 2011 at 8:58 pm #

    I’m guessing being a gentleman is a form of comfort. In most game models I’ve studied, attraction always comes before (in a chronological sense) comfort. A christian girl who’s not attracted to you is probably not more likely than any other girl to keep dating you.

  37. Wayfinder April 22, 2011 at 7:30 am #

    The catch, of course is that the Christian gals have been simultaneously told that they should feel immediate attraction while shaming them for feeling that attraction. When you then shame they guy for doing most of the things that build attraction, you get our current mess.

  38. Anonymous April 22, 2011 at 8:13 am #

    I’m guessing being a gentleman is a form of comfort.

    Yes, but it is only one way of building comfort (and, as Christians, we aren’t necessarily trying to build comfort as quickly as pick up artists, who want to build that comfort as quickly as possible so as to get the girl quickly into bed).

    If a girl is attracted to you, she’ll spend time with you, and then simply spending that time together, with you not being a total jerk or a horndog or a tightwad, will build comfort. Being super-gentlemanly seems pretty superfluous, and has all sorts of potential to make a guy seem suplicatory.

    I’ve seen hot girls in church with true gentlemen and I’ve seen them with guys who were kind of douche-y. It doesn’t seem to hurt and doesn’t seem to help.

  39. lifeinlonglegs April 22, 2011 at 11:09 am #

    I’m with Haley re: the paying and holding doors. If you’re dating someone who can’t appreciate these things, for whom such conduct isn’t a BARE MINIMUM…. you’re dating gutter girls [whose self respect is wanting and who allow you to embarass them and yourself in public by acting towards them that way].

    You’re right – women are pickier. If they aren’t? RED FLAG. They have no standards. And if they have no standards and are dating you gents, what does that say about you?

  40. Langobard April 22, 2011 at 11:54 am #

    I’m with Haley re: the paying and holding doors. If you’re dating someone who can’t appreciate these things, for whom such conduct isn’t a BARE MINIMUM….

    lifeinlonglegs,

    Well, like I said before, I personally do not see a problem for a man paying for the time and activities spent with a quality woman that he (or I myself) am attracted to and intimately interested in… but, the big caveat here is if she genuinely interested and is romantically attracted to the man back, and, most importantly, is she in some kind of ongoing relationship with the man..?

    The salient point here that I was initially trying to convey is that it is foolish for a man to spend and give away his money and resources to or for a woman he is not in some kind of committed relationship with — just as it is foolish for a woman to give sexual favors to a man that she is not in some kind of committed relationship with. Both give away too much of each respective gender’s bargaining power, especially if done early in a relationship, which diminishes the attraction felt toward the other person.

    Anon had it I feel completely right that for the first few dates, while each of you are ‘sizing each other up’ to see if your compatible, and most especially if sexual attraction exists, all a quality man has to show is that he is not “being a total jerk or a horndog or a tightwad”. A quality lady, in turn, (again for the initial stages of a relationship) will not expect him to have to spend much to “impress” her (which is very beta).

    If it is really important for a woman for a man to essentially pay for her mere company, well then, this is a woman that expects pedestalization – and any man that engages in this behavior is a Super-Beta – and will ultimately diminish, if not destroy, any feelings of attraction that the woman may have once had for the man.

    In fact, I am of the opinion that many a woman who insists that the man continually pay and pay for any time spent together is a woman who is running a, to put it nicely, ‘fitness test’ on the man to indeed see whether or not he is a (relatively rare) genuine, confident Alpha or your run-of-the-mill, average beta supplicator.

    Guess who wins out in the real world every time?

  41. Josh April 25, 2011 at 2:25 pm #

    Hmm…like other commentators, I was confused if this was satire or not. This is not really advice at all, but a pretend universe of how things should be, as defined by a Christian woman. DHV does not mean “things I like”, and DLV does not mean “things I do not like.”

    Church Alphas

    Let’s look at the list of recommended church leadership roles for men. Being a worship leader is a classic “alpha” male church role, but let’s not confuse cause with effect. Being the worship leader doesn’t make you an alpha, I’ve seen plenty of sad-sack worship leaders in khaki pants, blue dress shirt, with thinning hair, playing mediocre guitar. Rather, it’s that alpha qualities (confidence, stage presence, clear verbal articulation) make for a good worship leader. The same is true for other roles. Now, hopefully, your church bases its staffing decisions on actual effectiveness in the relevant task.

    An alpha male wins the respect and esteem of other males. Since this is church, and not a bar, you will see the same people, at least once a week, for years, there are no shortcuts. That doesn’t mean taking on half-a-dozen “leadership” roles (which often don’t involve much leadership), and being a busy worker bee, but by showing actual social skill and leadership. Churches are full of nice conformists who will follow anyone titled “leader”. Alphas will get people to follow them without the title.

    In the after-service meet-and-greet, do you find a circle of people naturally forming where you are? When you leave, does that circle dissolve fairly quickly? When you meet a formed circle, do people automatically shift their position to include you?

    Dating Good Christian Girls

    As Haley points out Good Christian Girls (GCGs) crave approval and conformity even more than the average women, she will not risk her social standing in the church, no matter how tempting the offer. With GCG’s, the battle is most likely won-or-lost before the first date. Since GCG’s really only date within their Christian community, you are not a blank slate, but a somewhat-known quantity. By the time you ask for that first date, she should feel more lucky that you asked her, rather than you feeling lucky that she accepted. The friend-approval process starts before the first date.

    Chivalry is recommended but not crucial. No amount of chivalry will save you if she’s only dating you out of pity. Chivalrous behavior is all in the execution.

    Let’s take opening a restaurant door. If she intends to simply walk to the door and open it, the beta will rush around her, trying to beat her to the door handle. The alpha will walk at whatever pace he decides, and the woman, who is at the restaurant door, has the choice of either opening the door herself and facing the maitre d’ alone, or waiting at the door, allow the man to reach the door, at which point he will open the door for her.

    Bottom line: If you feel “lucky” that you “somehow scored a date” with a GCG, chances are she feels exactly the same way. You’re lucky to have a date with her. Not exactly an impossible situation, but you face long odds.

  42. Greger April 27, 2011 at 5:55 am #

    A few good ideas of meeting someone with true Christian ideals.

  43. Jennifer August 19, 2011 at 6:01 pm #

    Badger, I doubt a good woman would fuss if the guy doesn’t pull out a chair. By being a gentleman, Haley means don’t paw her or pressure her for sex.

    I don’t know why anyone would find this post sarcastic. There’s a general kind of alpha-ism, but a very big difference between the PUA type and the Christian type; that’s all she’s saying.

    “In fact, I’d say they were a lot worse”

    I think that’s silly. Men and women are, to all intents and purposes, equal on the sin radar.

  44. Jennifer August 19, 2011 at 6:09 pm #

    “Hmm…like other commentators, I was confused if this was satire or not. This is not really advice at all, but a pretend universe of how things should be, as defined by a Christian woman”

    Guess again. These Christian areas exist much more extensively than you might imagine. Good points, though.

  45. Taylor Broussard June 22, 2016 at 10:14 pm #

    Neat a fake christian blog telling creeps how to take advantage of women.

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  1. Alpha Christian dating. « Haleys Halo | Rough Drafts of a Koanic Soul - April 20, 2011

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