Projection: “respecting a man who is ‘verbally open’ with his interest” edition.

15 Mar

In the latest Boundless podcast thread, commenter Elizabeth said the following:

But really, I would very much respect any man who is verbally open about his interests to a girl; especially if he is still seeking what God wants.

Stop right there, missy – we’ve got ourselves a classic case of projection!  For any blog newbies, here’s why it’s projection:  because Elizabeth is unknowingly referring only to men whom she finds attractive to begin with.

Imagine a scenario in which this guy

is “verbally open about his interest” to her and also happens to be verifiably seeking what God wants.

Is Elizabeth really going to “very much respect” this guy for his verbal openness?  Or is she going to mumble an awkward “thanks” and then run to tell her friends about the creeper who hit on her?

Okay, that was kind of a cheap example.  For a slightly more expensive example, let’s consider these peeps:

Of the men in this singles group, how greatly would she respect green shirt or either blue shirt if they came up to her and were very interested in her and were demonstrably “seeking what God wants”?  (Now that I think about it, this photo could spawn its own post of game/SMV analysis.  If I were feeling really ambitious, I could write a whole churchly soap opera off this picture.)

On the other hand, I’m pretty sure a guy like this could just twitch in Elizabeth’s direction and inspire respect:

Actually, he probably already has her respect.  This is why when a girl says she wants X quality in a guy, she really means that she wants X quality in a guy who is already attractive to her.

Furthermore, we know this is true in Elizabeth’s case, because she also wrote in the same post:

I have personally been very hurt by a guy who completely led me on, and if he had simply said something verbally about his intentions it would have (I’m sure) saved me from a LOT of hurt.

The key point here is THE REDUNDANCY, IT BURNSSS US, PRECIOUSSS  that she was denied by someone she was already attracted to.  Because, Let’s Be Real here:  a lot of guys, no matter how much they’re seeking after what God wants, and no matter how “verbally open” they are with her, are even going to have the opportunity to lead her on.  (Not that they would, even if they had the opportunity.)

If you don’t understand projection and can’t recognize it, a lot of dating advice is going to steer you wrong.  Part of the reason I write about the things that I write about here is that so many people are hurt in the dating game not because of being led on, but because there is a general deficit of knowledge and understanding of the dynamics of the SMV,especially in the church.  How many girls would be saved from “being led on” if they understood their true SMV?  And knew that SMV and MMV are not completely synonymous?  Likewise, how many more guys would find dating success (and be able to keep marriages together) if they understood the SMV and female sexual imperatives?  Moreover, how many people would be more emotionally well-off if they understood that being a Christian has NO SMV VALUE in and of itself.  Like other characteristics, being a Christian only has SMV value if other, more primal criteria are satisfied.  But we’re stuck with so much Christian dating advice that encourages people to work on their character and their relationship with God, as if that’s just as good on a fundamental level as going to the gym or learning charm.

By the way, men project, too.  Most men, when talking about characteristics they’d like in a woman, mean “in an attractive woman.”  Kind of like when male celebrities say that they don’t value looks in a woman that much, what they really mean is that they don’t care so much if a woman is an 8.5 or a 9 if she’s got other good qualities.  So when, say, Justin Bieber says that he doesn’t care about looks so much as a girl’s heart (theoretically – I don’t know if he has ever said this), he means the heart of a girl who is an 8+; whether she is an 8 or 9 is immaterial.  Sorry, Belieber 4s.

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34 Responses to “Projection: “respecting a man who is ‘verbally open’ with his interest” edition.”

  1. Rico March 16, 2012 at 3:27 am #

    “By the way, men project, too. Most men, when talking about characteristics they’d like in a woman, mean “in an attractive woman.” ”

    Mmm… not so much. When men talk about what they want in a woman, the attractive qualification is usually blatantly stated. It may not be mentioned in a casual discussion of desired traits because it’s a given, like “not a quadruple amputee”, or “has all her teeth.”

    That’s why descriptors like “she has a great personality” are such an immediate turn-off for guys – it implies that her looks are nothing to write home about.

    On the (very) rare occasion a man might say something like “I don’t care what a woman looks like as long as she is nice, kind, etc.”, you’re dealing with someone in deep denial, or a mangina of the highest order. But to be honest, I can’t say I’ve *ever* heard a guy say that in real life. We want attractive women, full stop. No projection necessary.

  2. Matt Calvey March 16, 2012 at 9:58 am #

    The picture isn’t large enough to see, but that Charlie Sheen-looking guy at the end of the table is probably running his own Sunday morning night club in this group.

  3. Jennifer Corry (@Whitespirit26) March 16, 2012 at 10:27 am #

    “How many girls would be saved from “being led on” if they understood their true SMV? And knew that SMV and MMV are not completely synonymous?”

    Sometimes you manage to make it sound more depressing than it already is. People of seemingly strange SMV value end up together all the time.

    Aside from that, I’m not sure what the point of this article is. Nothing the woman said really deserves critique or analysis. Why not take it for granted that of course personal attraction plays a factor, and she could respect a guy who spoke of his interests even if she’s not attracted to him, instead of implying that she deliberately left something out or is fooling herself?

  4. Simon Grey March 16, 2012 at 11:01 am #

    What Rico said. Whenever anyone asks me what I’m looking for in a woman, having good looks is the first thing I say. That said, Godliness and the ability to carry a conversation about non-superficial things for more than five minutes are also non-negotiable as well. Looks aren’t necessarily the most important of those three things to me, but I’d never consider dating or marrying a woman I didn’t want to have sex with.

  5. Ashur March 16, 2012 at 11:10 am #

    Not completely synonymous?

    I would say ‘not remotely’ is more accurate.

    A women who is no more than chubby, and with average looks can propel herself into the sexual orbit of men much more attractive then herself by simply using the rocket fuel of being, shall we say, ‘easy’.

    The physical weight of the girl, divided by her looks (scale of 1-10) is proportional to the amount of fuel required to bring her into alpha orbit.

    The man’s value minus the woman’s ,uh, unadulterated value predicts the dwell time of successful orbit. Low values equal longer orbit.

    A great example is average looking college girls who supply themselves like sexual takeout for college athletes.

    After pinballing through an asteroid field of college athletes, they experience a painful re-entry into the unforgiving atmosphere of actual market value, when they get dumped for someone else.

  6. Random Angeleno March 16, 2012 at 4:14 pm #

    Reminds me of sexual harassment in the workplace…
    Come to think of it, I didn’t realize it then, but that was my very first red pill moment: learning that it ain’t harassment if she likes the guy.

  7. MHR March 16, 2012 at 4:49 pm #

    Here’s a quandary:

    How do Christian men act alpha if they wish to also live chaste, virtuous lives?

    Sexual escalation would seem to be out entirely, which is a rather part of the Game playbook. Sure, good inner game will get you a long way, but at some point the girl is going to be wondering “why hasn’t he tried to kiss me/make out with me/get me into bed yet” and I don’t think there’s anything a Christian man can answer that with that’ll raise his SMV.

  8. Uncalledfor March 16, 2012 at 6:30 pm #

    “This is why when a girl says she wants X quality in a guy, she really means that she wants X quality in a guy who is already attractive to her.

    From your lips, to God’s ears, as the saying goes. If everyone could just admit the truth of this simple statement upon entry to the dating world, there would be so much less confusion and hurt for men and women alike.

  9. Jennifer Corry (@Whitespirit26) March 16, 2012 at 7:42 pm #

    MHR, it’s probably ok to try and kiss her. If you don’t believe in that, make it clear. Various “alpha” men existed in the Bible, and they weren’t thus because they loved to woo and lead women or whatever rot people may use now; they were thus because they did what they had to do in life, they listened to God, they followed Him fearlessly and often led others to Him the same way, regardless of what anyone else thought. LOL, I remember reading some lines from John Piper’s poem about Elijah, in the part where he had a confrontation with King Ahab. If I recall correctly, Elijah greeted the king with something along the lines of, “Has thou come to see me again, o servant of the queen?”

  10. Jennifer Corry (@Whitespirit26) March 16, 2012 at 7:44 pm #

    Ok, how come it looks like not everyone else had to comment by signing in through some other site??

  11. modernguy March 17, 2012 at 12:58 am #

    This day in age psycho rapist dude has a better chance of getting laid anyway. And what is it with women and their torturous little ball crushing tea parties? Those guys are like insects caught in an elaborate spider web.

  12. Jennifer Corry (@Whitespirit26) March 17, 2012 at 2:28 pm #

    That’s probably because he rapes his “lays”, MG.

  13. Smithborough March 17, 2012 at 2:30 pm #

    Haley, are you a member of the pictured singles group? Just curious…

  14. Aunt Haley March 18, 2012 at 2:57 pm #

    Smithborough–
    I don’t post pictures of myself on the blog.

  15. Smithborough March 18, 2012 at 4:43 pm #

    Not quite an answer to my question :)

  16. Jason March 18, 2012 at 5:39 pm #

    It would be pretty hilarious, actually, to do some kind of satire in regards to the photo: everybody toasting with grape juice rather than wine, the fellow with the ‘interesting’ hairstyle on the left, etc.; although I guess that would be shoving in the knife pretty deep.

  17. An Observer March 20, 2012 at 2:38 am #

    Respect? Hardly. Too many christian girls pay lip service to respect whilst spreading rumour, gossip and backstabbing any average guy that dares to approach them openly.

    Church girls badly need to be gamed. Church guys badly need to know this.

    Honesty just gets men friend-zoned and keeps them single unnecessarily.

    Until church girls recognise their hypergamous preferences and the negative outcomes they will experience, respect is a pointless exercise in ego-stroking under the guise of being nice to fellow christians, but not honest.

    Secular girls were generally easier to get on with. But dating one was pointless. Little wonder i spent most of my twenties single.

  18. Jennifer Corry (@Whitespirit26) March 20, 2012 at 7:01 am #

    Blah blah.

  19. Marvin the Martian March 20, 2012 at 7:09 pm #

    Facial hair is an instant deal-breaker with most women I know. It doesn’t matter if the hairy man is Christian or not.

  20. The Man Who Was . . . March 20, 2012 at 10:44 pm #

    Sure, good inner game will get you a long way, but at some point the girl is going to be wondering “why hasn’t he tried to kiss me/make out with me/get me into bed yet” and I don’t think there’s anything a Christian man can answer that with that’ll raise his SMV.

    This is why a woman’s sexual inexperience matters. You can get away with a lot more beta if no other guy has swept her off her feet, and into bed.

  21. Aunt Haley March 20, 2012 at 11:33 pm #

    Jason–
    everybody toasting with grape juice rather than wine

    Sparkling cider FTW!

    MHR–
    How do Christian men act alpha if they wish to also live chaste, virtuous lives?

    Sexual escalation would seem to be out entirely, which is a rather part of the Game playbook. Sure, good inner game will get you a long way, but at some point the girl is going to be wondering “why hasn’t he tried to kiss me/make out with me/get me into bed yet” and I don’t think there’s anything a Christian man can answer that with that’ll raise his SMV.

    Smart reframing can work, but it’s important that girls know that you are physically attracted to them. Otherwise they wonder why you’re dating them. Most Christian girls have it drilled into their heads by youth group leaders in junior high and high school that men are sleazy horndogs looking to compromise their virtue at all times, so if she is shy and inexperienced, she may be afraid of horndogs. If she is more experienced, she’ll just wonder if you’re gay, and if she doesn’t wonder, her friends will wonder for her.

  22. deti March 21, 2012 at 6:35 am #

    “When men talk about what they want in a woman, the attractive qualification is usually blatantly stated.”

    Yes. Men are direct about what they want in a woman and will admit they want a physically attractive woman, one who is physically appealing to them.

    Haley: “men project, too. Most men, when talking about characteristics they’d like in a woman, mean “in an attractive woman.” ”

    No. The examples you cited are of male celebrities whose every word is reported and dwelt upon for public consumption. Justin Bieber has millions of girls as his fanbase. Some of those girls are fuglies and he can’t say anything to alienate them and he knows that. Your average Joe is brutally honest (usually) when asked about what he wants in a woman.

  23. Hermes March 22, 2012 at 5:07 pm #

    Of the men in this singles group, how greatly would she respect green shirt or either blue shirt if they came up to her and were very interested in her and were demonstrably “seeking what God wants”?

    She didn’t say she would date or be attracted to a guy who did those things; she said she would “respect” him. Why do you doubt that? Women often do greatly respect their platonic male friends. Now, respect won’t make a girl hop into bed with a guy, so it’s useless to him if her affections are what he’s after, but that doesn’t mean it’s not respect.

    Of course the guy in the mug shot won’t be “respected.” But green shirt and blue shirt have probably been LJBFed many times and have probably earned plenty of “respect.” (Not that they deserve yours, since they probably bought their namesake shirts at Kohl’s.)

  24. flirtyintrovert March 24, 2012 at 11:30 am #

    What’s wrong with Green Shirt? He looks like a nice philosophy grad student, and he and the girl across from him would be cute together. Blue Shirt and Plump Lady are at the same level of pulchritude – they have a chance.

    The serial killer dude would look horrifying no matter what he did. He is obviously a disturbed person, and is not “verifiably seeking what God wants.” That you found the church guys only slightly less creepy than the mug shot guy tells me you still have your own hypergamy to shed.

  25. Jennifer March 25, 2012 at 11:18 am #

    Hey, I prefer grapejuice to wine.

  26. samsonsjawbone March 25, 2012 at 6:23 pm #

    What’s wrong with Green Shirt? He looks like a nice philosophy grad student,

    Yeah, I think the photo is less than flattering to Green Shirt. At his best, he could probably be a very respectable-looking philosophy wizard, perhaps not animalistically attractive but masculine in a confident “I command the knowledge of the universe” kind of way.

  27. Aaron Clarey March 27, 2012 at 4:28 pm #

    Haley,

    What would you say of the reverse. Where a secular guy gives a born again girl the VT, but she demands he convert to Christianity before she considers dating him.

  28. Aunt Haley March 28, 2012 at 11:03 pm #

    samsonsjawbone–
    Yeah, I think the photo is less than flattering to Green Shirt. At his best, he could probably be a very respectable-looking philosophy wizard

    How many women really “respect” philosophy wizards, though?

    Aaron Clarey–
    What is VT?

    Re: your other question, most of the time it doesn’t work out if a guy “converts” solely to get into a girl’s pants. If a woman says she won’t date you because you’re not a Christian, then she’s either really devout or just isn’t that interested.

  29. samsonsjawbone April 1, 2012 at 7:20 pm #

    How many women really “respect” philosophy wizards, though?

    A statistically significant number. You have a lot of growing up to do – a LOT – if you ever want to become marriageable, Haley.

  30. Strong Man April 15, 2012 at 1:13 pm #

    Excellent education in your post above. I would love an analysis of the photo–that would be totally fun! Would be nice to find another candid one that you could see people just a bit better in.

  31. NoVolume April 24, 2012 at 12:17 am #

    Sorry I’m new here and I get this mixed up all the time so Samsonsjawbone help me out. Philosophy wizards that command the knowledge of the universe are the ones that *hate* Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition, right?

    Grad school for philosophy wizards can earn respect if it’s law school. Lots of philosphy grads end up there. That said, our friend above is not in law school. I’m pretty sure they have rules about green shirts from Kohl like that.

    Fashion and facial hair not withstanding both those guys look like run of the mill LJBFs. We pick on green shirt because he’s not smiling and he didn’t bother to wear a tie. Undoubtedly God’s will for him involves wearing jean shorts this weekend.

    Anyway I’m still stuck on the basic premise here – mainly I’m not sure what the original commenter means when she says ‘respect’. And I don’t think that she even knows what she means. So much of that just comes out as inarticulate loneliness.

  32. whatsnew March 10, 2013 at 4:30 am #

    “Most Christian girls have it drilled into their heads by youth group leaders in junior high and high school that men are sleazy horndogs looking to compromise their virtue at all times,”

    Not just Christian girls get the “all men are pigs” and “men are pigs who only want one thing” story.

    One of the most common consequences is that women who get the message learn that only horndogs/pigs who only want one thing are “men”, and which woman wants to some loser who is not one of the “men”?

  33. Samson J. March 10, 2013 at 12:15 pm #

    Philosophy wizards that command the knowledge of the universe are the ones that *hate* Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition, right?

    Yes, anyone who commands that level of knowledge certainly hates 4e. 2e was where it’s at.


Trackbacks/Pingbacks

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