Or, Why the Church Desperately Needs the Red Pill.
In the latest “Boundless Answers,” a 21-year-old female reader asks for advice about her current dating relationship with a 33-year-old man. According to the reader, she had a crush on this guy for three years and has never dated anyone before. Oldie finally asked OP out after getting the green light from other adults at church. Oldie is moving slower than molasses in the winter and since January has taken OP out on about six dates and “really likes [her] but doesn’t put any pressure on [her] to like him back.” On paper, he is everything OP has ever wanted or prayed for. Consequently, OP has completely lost all attraction for Oldie and is distressed at this development. Why doesn’t her heart match her head?
Enter Candice Watters to give textbook bad Christian advice to the rescue. First, Watters decides that the only reason OP liked Oldie in the first place was because it was Oldie was someone she couldn’t have. Not only that, but OP imagined onto Oldie all sorts of qualities that Oldie couldn’t live up to in person. So basically, Watters is claiming that OP Edward Cullen-ed Oldie in her mind.
Next, Watters declares that the age gap is an “added reason for caution and concern,” reminding OP that only two years ago, she was still a teenager. (My analogy: you know, kind of like how when you are 18 and can vote, you should realize that only two years earlier, you were 16 and couldn’t vote, so you should realllllly think seriously about voting. I mean, are you even ready for that?) Watters is right that often there is a big gap in maturity when there is a large age gap at that age, but she seizes on the age gap issue like Oldie is an alien to young women, even though OP’s parents and the adults at her church overwhelmingly approve of Oldie and his (slower than a tortoise) pursuit of OP.
Just to make sure that the situation is spiritualized as well, Watters equates OP’s “intuition” with CONSCIENCE. Yes, biological feminine intuition that a man is unattractive is now given the stature of biblical conscience, and Watters reminds OP that it is a sin to violate your own conscience. Somehow this is twisted into the (correct) conclusion that if you have serious doubts about marrying someone, you shouldn’t. Finally, Watters concludes with a reminder that God will never forsake OP.
This whole article had a giant neon WTFWTFWTF light scrolling above my head. The assumptions that Watters makes are astounding. Unless substantial portions of OP’s original letter were edited out, there is nothing in OP’s letter that indicates either OP’s crush being out of place, or that age is an actual issue. Yet Watters assumes that it is wrong for a young girl to have a crush on an older guy, and then, when that guy has been vetted, approved, and encouraged BY THE ADULTS IN THE CHURCH to pursue OP, who is now a legal adult, that the age gap is cause for added “caution and concern” – even though OP states that she has been praying all along to have a guy very like Oldie! Then, to make sure that no one can dispute her reasoning, Watters uses the old “listen to your feelings conscience” escape hatch. Because obviously the Lord would use a woman’s conscience to tell her that a man isn’t the one to marry. Why attribute anything to biological fact when you can put a spiritual spin on it? (And what about all the women who marry “the wrong guy” even though they felt on their wedding day that he was the “right” guy? Did the conscience kick in late, or did the conscience just change its mind?)
Watters has no clue about the true mechanisms of attraction – that much is evident by the wild grasping of straws in her advice. Her reasoning was so full of unwarranted assumptions and twists of convenience, that the possibility that anyone could read it and believe it sound (or even follow it) just kills me.
OP, if you are out there and you happen to stumble across this blog, please listen: there is nothing wrong with you. What is going on is that on a fundamental biological level, your body is rejecting Oldie as a mate because he has not been sufficiently alpha. He sounds like he is a good man who is boring and has no game. If he were exciting and playful – if he knew how to tease, if he didn’t capitulate, if he showed he could lead you instead of letting you determine the progression of your relationship, if he made you feel safe and secure but still kept you on your toes – in addition to all of his other good qualities, you would probably not have any qualms, and Candice Watters’ “concerns” about the age gap would be completely irrelevant – the only reason Candice is even “concerned” about the age gap is because she can’t explain why an otherwise good man who you were initially attracted to would now be unattractive to you. Having no way to explain this phenomenon, she has turned to the age gap as a last resort. Trust me, she would be urging you to the altar if you hadn’t said you were repulsed by this guy.
When you’re young, crushes usually revolve around the following three criteria: he is cute, he would be nice to me, and he gets along well with other people/other people like him. Then you get to know the guy and realize he is boring or has personal traits that are ladyboner-killing (e.g., indecisive, cares too much about what other people think, won’t touch you at all because he defers to the virgin forcefield surrounding you and/or seems uncertain about how to proceed in your relationship, likes you more than you think he has reason to at the moment, has social awkwardness, etc.). My guess is that your crush was based on his good traits, but then you got to know him up close, and he killed your ladyboner with betaness.
Do both you and Oldie a favor and break up with him. Until he learns to be the driver, you’re going to feel more and more revulsion for him and ultimately start treating him like crap to try to get him to show some alpha traits, and then start feeling contempt at his weakness. Avoid that ending and break up now. You’ll never be able to love a man you can’t instinctively respect.
Haley's Halo 
But hey, Christians don’t need game. Just ask all the ones trying to shame game users and promoters at Dalrock’s and other blogs. No game needed at all. Nope, nuh-uh. Just be a nice Christian guy and it will all work out.
@BC: Very well said. Jesus will take care of everything.
“since January has taken OP out on about six dates and “really likes [her] but doesn’t put any pressure on [her] to like him back.”
I take it this means they’ve hung out one on one, but he hasn’t kissed her or tried to physically escalate with her or anything. He only got to 6 because he is that much older and she liked him. It’s a slower version of what happened here, where the girl got turned off after the guy was beta and didn’t make a move:
http://3rdmilleniummen.wordpress.com/2012/08/13/lets-just-be-friends-date-lab/
Another example here:
http://3rdmilleniummen.wordpress.com/2012/10/06/a-students-first-date-after-kissing-her-in-a-club-part-2/
Boundless is the gift that keeps on giving.
Lol Zorro. The ‘advice’ given to the young woman proves that you can’t fix stupid.
i think you found your calling haley, replace this woman! or at least compete with her in another forum.
@ BC
Yup, no game needed. And just look at our success rates; 62%!!! Doesn’t that just make you want to go get married right now?
That whole “no fornication” thing is what creates betas in the first place. Any single man in the church is single for a reason, usually.
As far as I can see, the basic problem is that he isn’t putting the moves on her. In the past, as I recall, Haley has disagreed with me that you need to put the moves on a girl early (i.e., if you don’t try to kiss her at the end of the first date, and the middle of the second date, her unconscious mind is likely to remove you from the potential romantic partner category). Maybe Haley is coming around to my view. In any case, six dates? That’s bizarre. (Though not so bizarre as nine years of God-knows-what.)
Physical contact is the cause of romantic attraction as much as it is the result. You aren’t going to develop hot love by sitting around considering the Form of the Good.
Chuches create betas. It includes careerism, the feminist merit badge, absolution for divorce, lack of culpability and sensitivity training.
Think about it. When it goes bad, who loses face here? Whose version of events will be believed?
She stands to lose nothing. She will be applauded for recognising the ‘dangers’ of relationships. As though men are scary beasts that the church has to tame, and keep leashed.
He stands to lose everything. Church, friends, reputation. She can even file a law suit alleging she felt threatened, and the court can issue a restraining order. Just for being a normal guy.
This happens all the time. Yet what conclusion is most often drawn?
‘There’s just no good men.’
Sure, keep thinking that.
OLDIE, if you happen to stumble across this blog, please listen: there is nothing wrong with you. What is going on is that you are trying to behave like a gentleman but this silly girl is repulsed by you because you are shy and considerate. (What else could explain a grown 33 year old man needing the permission of his church peers just to ask a girl for a date?) She sounds like she is a good girl but she’s immature and ruled by her inner hamster. The entire onus is on YOU to bring excitement and playfulness to this relationship; the girl is not responsible for any of it) -– if you knew how to manipulate her emotions, if you acted like a douchebag, if you were to pretend to be someone you’re not by not being sensitive to anyone’s feelings but your own — you could get her dripping wet for you. If you kept on your toes 100% of the time 24/7, always striking the perfect behavioral and psychological balance of danger and security and of push/pull and never ever try to just be yourself because it’s not about you it’s all about her and her hamster – she’d be able to overlook your good qualities and would probably not have the urge to bitch about you on a prominent Christian web site.
But Oldie, don’t feel bad about faling to “put pressure” on her to like you back. If you were to do such a thing, she’d be complaining about how clinging and needy you were. You’ll never be able to satisfy the hamster. Give it up.
Now, now, Haley. Neither you nor I are exactly spring chickens ourselves anymore.
I wonder if Watters would entertain similar concerns about her old friend Ted Slater, who famously walked down the aisle with the then-23-year-old Ashleigh at age 36? (Of course, Slater’s writings were littered for years with self-flagellations over having delayed marriage for so long.)
“Now?” “Women’s feelings” = “the ultimate litmus test of right vs. wrong” has been the standard in evangelicaldom for at least 20 years now.
I don’t know about that. The guy’s taken her on six dates since January–less than one date per month. That’s pretty darn aloof. Sort of gives the lie to her statement that “he really likes me.” Seems to me he’s just not interested, and he’s probably so distant that there isn’t even any thrill of the case in it for her anymore. He’s certainly not “letting her determine the progression of their relationship.” If he were, don’t you think he would have taken her on more than six dates by now?
Also, I agree with Inlone’s satiric point.
@Hermes,
“The guy’s taken her on six dates since January–less than one date per month. That’s pretty darn aloof. Sort of gives the lie to her statement that “he really likes me.” Seems to me he’s just not interested, and he’s probably so distant that there isn’t even any thrill of the case in it for her anymore. He’s certainly not “letting her determine the progression of their relationship.” If he were, don’t you think he would have taken her on more than six dates by now?”
Disagree. It isn’t Alpha at all. It shows weakness, indeciveness and supplication to her. Her keeping her distance to let things progress on her time is just a massive shit-test that he should have broken through.
Hermes makes a very good point, about six dates in six months. Although a man has much more social freedom than a woman to go places without a date, a typical man could certainly have one event per month where a female companion was socially obligatory. It’s possible that he is “using” her for that purpose, and that her conviction that he likes her in any serious romantic way is delusory.
ar10308, I didn’t say it was alpha, I said it doesn’t seem like he likes her that much. Supplicating betas try to get together with a girl frequently, once they get in with her. They don’t let a month pass before even suggesting getting together again.
Well, Haley’s back and better than ever. No one expresses the principles of game as played out in the church better than her.
This is the exact kind of reversal that no man should ever have to deal with. As Watters herself admitted, feelings are fickle. The fact that OP can entertain a crush for three years and suddenly go back on it demonstrates in spades that she, unlike Oldie, is largely devoid of emotional discipline. *This* is the biggest potential red flag with a large age gap and OP is a textbook case. There is no way of knowing at this point that there is anything wrong with Oldie that OP could not fix if she would simply get off her duff and talk to him about it. A little honest work could do wonders here; I’m sure of it. I was a very shy youngster and I still don’t fully subscribe to Game, but I learned some of the basics on those precious few occasions when girls and women gave me a rock to build my house on. Give him some confidence to start with and he will build on it. Only a fool builds his house on the sand and that appears to be exactly what OP is expecting Oldie to do.
This brings me to my next point. Has no one considered the possibility that Oldie is working through shell shock? Having done that to one extent or another myself, I can wholeheartedly swear that this would explain his sluggish pace and timidity, especially since as a noticeably older man, he runs the tremendous risk of being branded a predator. Once bitten, twice shy, and I’m willing to bet that he’s been ambushed multiple times. If OP can’t be bothered to try walking in his shoes for a few seconds and take some responsibility for her own ladyboner, that is her problem and hers alone.
Or maybe he isn’t interested. Oh wait, I’m sorry. OP has a vagina. Of course he is interested. I keep forgetting about the all important vj.
And by “got approval by others”… do we mean was bullied into going out with her?
Not saying it’s like this, but the singular inability of others to even grasp the possibility is kinda odd.
Why couldn’t he not be interested? Speaking for myself, risking rejection is not something I do for sport, especially not when the stakes are this high. My impression at first reading was that he had gone to a lot of bother to scope the situation out before acting and that is perfectly normal for an interested 30+ male bachelor without a death wish. It is not normal for a cold fish. If he isn’t interested, why would he pursue her? He has nothing to gain by pursuing a young woman he doesn’t want and practically everything to lose, so why do it? For that matter, he has a very rare chance to look noble by turning her away, yet he passes it up. If he wanted to discourage her, all he had to do was say something to the effect of “you deserve better” and the church would’ve approved or at least assumed that he had good intentions. On closer reading of the original letter, I suppose the possibility exists that the congregation is trying to play matchmaker against his private will, but given the social circumstances, I think it unlikely. He has the perfect beta alibi, so why would he not use it?
“That whole “no fornication” thing is what creates betas in the first place. Any single man in the church is single for a reason, usually.”
That whole no fornication thing is due to the fact you don’t inherit the Kingdom of God if you do. Also the body is meant to glorify the Lord. It’s detrimental for women especially to have sex with many partners.
That doesn’t mean you don’t kiss or at least touch the gal though…or that you shouldn’t instill dread, tease, neg, flirt, or do all the other things to get the hamster going. Women enjoy the foreplay more than the sex anyway.
When you look at this whole issue of Christians doling out bad, bad dating advice, I think it comes down to at least one simple thing: a lack of street knowledge of people and human nature. The church doesn’t have enough mother wit regarding these types of things. Kinda in-keeping with the whole dumbing down of our culture in general. Even the Proverbs encourage us to know whats going at the street level.(remember Prov 5 and how it describes the young man who ‘lacked sense’ before the seductress got a hold of him)
One reason I’ve been so captivated with game blogs these past 5 mos. is they match 90% of what I was taught about females and dating by my parents(particularly my mom—yes, mom!) and older bros. But ‘Churchianity’ and its fantasy view of women and men sexual natures obscured and overtook what I’d learned growing up. Only now do I understand exactly why some girls were super into me,as well as why other girls lost their attraction for me. Time for the church to wake up.
Elizabeth may not have been a gold-digger, but she was certainly a prideful bitch. I have never understood what Darcy saw in her.
The guy was in, had it all lined up: the girl crushing on him, the adults saying hey it’s ok. And he drops the ball. Badly… Sad … just sad. The worst part is beta boy has no one around him to kick his butt and make him read Athol regarding relationship game.
I do agree though that the approval of other adults was necessary, otherwise, the guy could have become a pariah, a creep or whatever, at least a persona non grata within the church for wanting to go out with that girl.
@taterearl,
“Women enjoy the foreplay more than the sex anyway.” Agree.
Tater, no way. Women like confidence, and confidence comes from past incremental successes with women. Confidence *requires* fornication unless you are 15.
I love foreplay as much as anyone, but… no, not all women prefer foreplay over sex, perhaps anorgasmic/frigid ones do. Or ones stuck with shitty lovers. Certainly not the women I know – they want the multiples.
How would a woman know where my confidence comes from? Sure some guys give it away that they haven’t been with a woman since the last millennium…but many don’t have much confidence to begin with. If you have to base your success with women to get your confidence, you are going to be tough sledding the first time a broad shuts you down or you go into a slump. Even the best pick up artists will strike out more than they succeed.
I get confidence from making the weights at the gym my bitch, I get confidence from leading people at work, I get confidence from dancing, I get confidence from knowing game, I get confidence from public speaking, I get confidence from something as simple as looking a woman in the eye or approaching them. You women just see the results.
Women want Alphas to have fun with and betas for child and material support. It is just the way it is.In the case of this women, she seems like the prime example of women wanting the bad boys when they are young. Notice the age of her attraction….
Hi Haley. I’ve been reading your blog for a few days (loving it) and I promise to leave an actual decent comment soon. However, could you link me to either a blog post of yours or some other webpage that includes a “glossary” of some sort for all these terms you use? I think I get the gist of alpha/beta and men with game, but some of the acronyms you use really lose me. I feel like I’m wandering through a brilliant new world but everyone around me speaks a different language.
Feel free to delete this after reading if it drives you nuts that it’s not applicable to the discussion at hand. Thanks to Haley or anyone else who has helpful info!
@Joanna,
A good glossary for a lot of terms:
http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/p/masculexicon.html
This guy discusses some of the basics:
http://josephofjackson.wordpress.com/
Basic to advanced concepts:
http://marriedmansexlife.com/take-the-red-pill/ <-Has a forum for women
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/
Some basic terms defined:
Hypergamy: The biological drive for a woman to mate with a man of higher status or higher point-score on the SMV (Sexual Market Value).
“I feel like I’m wandering through a brilliant new world but everyone around me speaks a different language.”
That is the consequence of starting to take the Red Pill. You are coming through the looking glass and about to see how deep the rabbit hole goes. What you will see will remove the scales from your eyes. Depending on how Blue-Pilled you are, you may even experience a few of the stages of grieving/mourning as your old self/ideas die to the new. It. Will. Be. Worth. It.
I have a glossary page for this site. Look for the link at the top of the page.
@ar10308, thank you.
@AH, I feel stupid. I thought you might have your own, but clearly I didn’t look for it as well as I thought I did. Thanks!
Recently had a similar situation…I had been talking to the pastor’s daughter…she was 18 and I was 34…she definitely tried flirting at times, and she was very attractive and had a funny personality; but I couldn’t initiate because a). I was in a leadership role and was too nervous due to the risk of reputation; b). I was incredibly worried what other people would think of such an age difference and c). I didn’t realistically see anything working out long-term.
I wanted her so bad but my fears were probably portrayed as weak in her eyes when it was more about self-preservation. in the end she still ruined my reputation anyway…so I’m starting to think just go for it and who cares…they’re going to reject you and hurt you anyway so might as well be up front and just cut to the chase.
To this day I still have no idea if she was the one who cut me off or if her father found out we were talking privately and he cut her off.