Should Christians flirt at all?

11 Dec

Should Christians flirt at all?

It seems like flirting is generally frowned upon in contemporary Christian thinking, now that “intentionality” and its close cousin, “not defrauding”, are the orders of the day.   The thinking goes something like this:  we shouldn’t flirt because someone might misconstrue the flirting as more interest than is intended, which would be defrauding a brother or sister in Christ, and if you’re careless about misleading someone, you’re not showing intentionality.  So flirting is out, and serious earnestness is in.

The problem is, flirting by its very nature is supposed to be unserious.  It’s not supposed to be taken as an indicator of anything serious, yet in this culture of “intentionality,” flirting actually is VERY serious, because if everyone is seriously looking at others only for marriage potential, and no one is supposed to flirt with anyone they’re not interested in for fear of defrauding them, then any flirting MUST mean serious interest or some implied promises of affection.  I think this is why Christian girls get all of their hopes up if someone flirts with them – and then wildly dashed when the flirting is only that.

That said, flirting does often lead to confusion.  People have a hard time distinguishing mere flirting from genuine interest – I have a hard time with this, because most of the time, flirting falls under the umbrella of plausible deniability.  Someone could flirt with you, but you’re not sure if you should flirt back in reciprocation of implied interest, because maybe that person was just being friendly and doesn’t actually have any interest in you.  OR you choose not to flirt back because you’re afraid that if you do, that person will get the wrong impression and think you’re more interested than you are.  So, I get why Christian advice tends to discourage flirting – there’s often too much broken-hearted and confused collateral damage involved.

Still, all of this adds up to a bunch of Christian singles awkwardly trying to show interest in each other without flirting and instead trying to be direct and “intentional.”  And that sounds about as exciting as brushing your teeth.

If anyone has any solutions, please comment!

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58 Responses to “Should Christians flirt at all?”

  1. Toz December 11, 2013 at 9:51 pm #

    This is the nanny church at its worst. By being “intentional”, they’re trying to spare you from being emotionally hurt. This has the same effect as the overprotective parent that never let’s a kid do anything. Namely, they become fragile wimps.

    The same thing has happened with this generation of Christians emotionally. They’re a bunch of emotional wimps! A mature person would be able to handle rejection, realize their value in Christ and move on. But these are not mature people, hence attempts to weed out all possible rejections by adding “intentionality”. The effect, of course is the opposite, it causes the stakes to get much higher earlier and the rejection that comes to sting that much more.

    Flirting should be a normal part of being single at church as a part of character development.

  2. Deep Strength December 11, 2013 at 10:26 pm #

    Let’s put it this way.

    Question: What is the easiest way to flirt with a woman?

    Answer:Teasing.

    Should teasing be eradicated from Christian families, from between Christian friends, from between brothers and sisters in Christ, and from between Christian members of the opposite sex?

    Yes? No? Maybe? Any takers?

  3. Some Guy December 12, 2013 at 4:31 am #

    This is asinine.

    Christian women believe in neither “til death do you part” nor in putting out for their husbands. This is what makes them frauds, not the flirting. They carry on so about how much “work” marriage is… but what they really mean is that they continually bully their husband when they decide he doesn’t qualify for love, respect, affection, or sex anymore. This power play is always cloaked in spiritual and therapeutic terminology.

  4. deti December 12, 2013 at 7:22 am #

    Yes, Christians should flirt, Often. And men who don’t know how should learn how from men who do know how. We should flirt because we are sexual creatures.

    This is one of the major problems with modern day church. Men, especially, are expected to leave their sexuality at the narthex, and deny their masculinity when they sit or kneel, or sing or respond, at church.

    Church has become a desexualized zone where women complain to pastors about unattractive men asking them for dates; shrieking about Males trying to sack up and act like Men.

    Yes, men should flirt.

    And we should ignore this “intentionality” and “not defraud” business. “Intentionality” simply sterilizes the entire mating dance. “Not defrauding” is simply duty and obligation sex within marriage. These concepts are being pushed by people in churches who see there’s an enormous problem with singles not getting together and men and women both being grievously unhappy with their lives; and they frankly don’t know what to do about it. So instead of taking an appropriate laissez faire approach, they come up with silly concepts like these and expect their young people who are literally brimming over with sexuality, to somehow find each other while completely stifling their natural sexuality. It’s destined for failure.

    I’m actually coming around to the thinking of some men who say that, other than setting out the basic theological doctrines of the Christian faith, churches as an institution should simply stay out of the matchmaking/dating advice/marriage counseling business. It’s not helping, and in fact it’s hurting everyone.

    My solution is simply that everyone ignore intentionality and ‘not defrauding”. Moreover, the church as an institution should simply get out of the business of playing Yenta for the singles and marriage counselor for the marrieds. (This is especially so because when you get down to it, most marrieds have marriage problems because the wife is not attracted to her husband – either never really was to begin with or has lost that attraction over time.)

  5. Anna December 12, 2013 at 7:58 am #

    The other day I went to a performance of the Mikado. In the operetta, flirting is against the law. Every time an actor said the word “flirting”, some of the actors were turn to the audience and whisper in titillated tones, “fliiiirting!”. It was hilarious.

    That is what this post reminds me of.

  6. Dalrock December 12, 2013 at 8:25 am #

    This is an interesting question. I think Keoni Galt’s post on using Game as an all purpose social lubricant is a good model for men to follow, Christian or otherwise. Obviously there would need to be some tuning based on the setting/culture though. For Christian women I think it is trickier, because so many Christian men are struggling under some heavy misconceptions about romance and sex. Not all Christian men, but the ones who get it are much more likely to already be married, so the pool of singles has an excessive number of confused men. One of the risks for you as a woman is Christian men are taught that they should beta orbit their way into their future wife’s heart. Fireproof isn’t just the template on how to re-court your wife when she gets unhaaaapy, but it is the churchian template for all courtship. So a Christian woman flirting with one of her beta orbiters is risking a great deal of confusion. He could see this as his Fireproof moment, where all of his beta orbiting and submission to her is finally paying off (think the ending scenes of the movie). This is the sort of thing that leads to rejected marriage proposals, since the beta orbiter misreads the woman’s general lack of interest as her Christian purity and desire to wait for marriage. He knows she very much wants to marry, and he assumes the only problem is no one had the decency to ask her yet.

    I would say if it feels natural to go ahead and flirt, especially flirting back to a Christian man you are at least somewhat interested in. Keep plausible deniability, but remember that most men aren’t good at catching subtlety the way women are. Depending on your definition, flirting could be anything which shows interest, but I’m not sure you are defining it that way. Assuming not, showing interest in what a man is doing and saying can also be effective. If the opportunity arises, ask him if he could teach you something he is good at (textbook girl game). Cane Caldo’s current post is on a discussion he had with his daughter on women signalling interest, so you might want to check that out.

  7. Micha Elyi December 12, 2013 at 9:16 am #

    There’s a difference between a chaste expression of friendliness and interest in meeting again and flirting (else, there would be no need for the word). Also, when does her flirting become leading him on?

  8. Micha Elyi December 12, 2013 at 9:29 am #

    The problem is, flirting by its very nature is supposed to be unserious.

    Yeah, like playing with fire is unserious. One cannot honestly be unserious about something with potentially grave consequences. There are those who’d like to convince us all that a one-night stand (a “hookup” in the modern youth slang) is unserious–if only we who know better would ignore all the consequences of that supposedly unserious choice.

    If ones vocation is the married life, the quest for ones spouse is among the great, challenging adventures of ones life. Prepare and conduct oneself accordingly. LIve the adventure with joy.

  9. deti December 12, 2013 at 9:47 am #

    Flirting is not dangerous. Flirting is not playing with fire. Talking to men and acting as though you actually like talking to and being around men is not dangerous. Friendly male-female banter is not dangerous.

    Shoving men away is dangerous. Complaining to a pastor because some awkward inexperienced guy who you aren’t particularly attracted to asked you to get lunch is dangerous. Recoiling in shock and horror because a man said “Hi. My name is _________. How are you today?” is dangerous. Getting offended because a man said to you “I like your hair/nails/eyes” is dangerous.

    “Being intentional” and “not defrauding” in the realm of intersexual relationships is dangerous because it encourages people to approach intersexual relationships in a sterile, cold fashion. A woman waiting until she’s 26 to start thinking about getting serious about finding a husband is dangerous.

  10. Deep Strength December 12, 2013 at 10:03 am #

    deti,

    This reminds of a few weeks ago when I posted practical ways to be more attractive to the opposite sex to Boundless and they deleted it.

    Apparently, somehow you’re supposed to signal to the other sex that you’re interested in marriage. But then there is no information from said churches on how to actually be someone whom others would want to be with (attractive) AND they denigrate all forms of human interaction that signal interest (don’t flirt, be intention, blah blah blah).

    And you wonder why marriage rates in the church are abysmal.

  11. Deep Strength December 12, 2013 at 10:11 am #

    When you use “game” on women, your employers, coworkers, or your family, your friends, or even old retired women and men… do they get upset at with you for “defrauding” them?

    Not at all. In fact, being charasmatic (which is what “game” strives to make men) makes people want to be around you and interact with you. There is no one person who ever said.. “wow, I wish I had never gamed anyone in my family so that I wouldn’t have this better, deeper, more fulfilling relationship with my mother, father and siblings” or “wow, I wish I wasn’t charasmatic so I wouldn’t be able to interact on a deeper level with my friends.”

    Why is “romance” or the path to marriage some special exception?

    This is like feminist complaining that men shouldn’t care about the N count of a woman because it’s her own business.

    Again, I wouldn’t consider marrying someone who has been to jail for theft. I’d be scared they would eventually run off with all of my things. I wouldn’t marry someone who was an alcoholic or drug abuser because they are more likely to relapse. Therefore, I wouldn’t marry a woman who has slept around a lot because she is more likely to do the same, cheat, and/or frivorce and leave.

    Same deal. Relationships are not some special exception where you change your behavior of interaction with people.

    I light heartedly joke, tease, and have fun with my friends, family, coworkers, and others. You should do the same with your romantic interests.

  12. deti December 12, 2013 at 10:19 am #

    Deep Strength:

    Yeah, there is a real disconnect here. It points up how the past 50 years of feminism has left men so confused and lost about how they are supposed to act that flirting is now a “crime” on a par with rape. What else to think when a 6 year old boy gets an in school suspension (now removed) for kissing a girl on the hand? He’s a sexual harasser because he liked some girl and showed it?

    What else are we to conclude when we have women complaining to pastors because some well meaning but hamhanded Poindexter asks out a cutie at church?

    What else are we to conclude when girls come here and say “flirting is dangerous” and is like playing with fire?

    Nobody is asking girls to dress in microminiskirts and cleavage-showing tops. No one is asking girls to hang all over a man they like. No one is demanding that girls engage in sexual double entendre with men all day long.

    Is it too much to ask that a girl return a friendly “Hi” with a smile? Is it too much to ask that if she likes a guy and might be interested, that SHE initiate the conversation and maybe act like she kinda sorta might want to get to know him better? Is it too much to ask that act nicely and cordially to a man who seems to like her?

  13. Deep Strength December 12, 2013 at 10:39 am #

    Here’s my ultimate conclusion from my comments above. This is the fundamental flaw of the “beta” male.

    When you change your behavior because of a woman that you are interested in then you are being a fake. You are pedastalizing her because you believe she is special or requires some special handling.

    As with my previous points, you should treat her the same way you would treat her as when you interact with your family and friends. That is the real you. The one who is able to joke around with, flirt, make playful fun of, and interact with naturally in your relationships with others.

    Women will never respect a man caters to her whims, and no one likes liars and fakers. Much less liars and fakers who call themselves Christians.

    This is why I can understand the disgust at women have for betas. They put on a fake personality to try to “win the girl” and are lying to themselves.

    This is what Christian men need to learn.

  14. Samson J. December 12, 2013 at 1:10 pm #

    I find many of these comments about “intentionality” (which I view, along with Boundless, as a good, important thing) kind of strange. Intentionality, so far as I ever understood, means things like a) you take the idea of finding a spouse seriously, and b) once you are dating/courting someone, you don’t leave the relationship in limbo for years and years before finally progressing to marriage. None of that precludes the kind of flirting you are talking about.

  15. Jzb December 13, 2013 at 2:48 am #

    Yes, they should, unless they want to end up 29 year old virgins who never succeed with the opposite sex.

    I listened to the “do not flirt, be intentional” nonsense, and let me tell you it’s a gauranteed recipe for failure.

    Flirt early and often.

    So much stupid Christian culture bullshit I have to unlearn – it pisses me off to no end.

  16. earl December 13, 2013 at 11:07 am #

    I’ve done both…flirt and be intentional.

    Intentional is like taking a plane in the sky and flying it directly into the ground. Flirt away!

  17. earl December 13, 2013 at 11:12 am #

    “As with my previous points, you should treat her the same way you would treat her as when you interact with your family and friends. That is the real you. The one who is able to joke around with, flirt, make playful fun of, and interact with naturally in your relationships with others.”

    Agreed…and if she likes that…things will naturally take their course.

  18. Fred Mok December 13, 2013 at 11:11 pm #

    Haley, love your blog. Wrote my post in response to yours. More content!

    In accord with many of the other responses: Yes, Christians should flirt. 1) it builds relationships 2) it’s intentionally vague – which is helpful 3) women to demonstrate interest, men flirt to demonstrate they’re worthy of interest 4) Jesus flirted – John 4

    More here:

    http://breadbeforerice.blogspot.com/2013/12/should-christians-flirt.html

  19. galloper6 December 14, 2013 at 9:36 pm #

    Let me guess, the real complaint must be “betas must not flirt”. It is always accepted that privilaged aphas can. Does anyone complain if the brawny exbiker youth leader does it? Or the cool band members? I strongly object to social classes in church. There should be no greater and lesser people. Can you justify Harley getting more from church than Poindexter?

  20. jack December 15, 2013 at 9:41 am #

    Much of the Churchian directives for men (and some of the secular ones as well) are really forms of trying to price-fix womens’ SMV/MMV.

    Attention from a beta male is often a grim, horrific reminder of a woman’s actual MMV, if she is type of woman who likes to nurture fantasies of sparkly vampires and mythological tall/dark/handsome/worshipleader guys.

    In short, the average woman craves an alpha, but will never get one except for if/when she serves as a brief sexual interlude for him. The math does not lie.

    Much of the talk of “creepy guys” is really women just whistling past the graveyard about their own lack of high SMV/MMV.

    Beta males function as a mirror to woman, or clothing that it not vanity-sized. People do not like to be reminded of their limited SMV bargaining power, so such women should also refer to their “creepy” mirror, or those “creepy” size labels on their clothing, which would at least be intellectually consistent.

    I have noticed that hotties are much more polite when rejecting average men who approach, because their self-image is not threatened by such an approach, while to a plain jane with delusions, it is a soul crushing reminder that she is as average as the men who orbit her.

    How does this apply to the original post?

    Intentionality is beta. It is transparent and honest. Most women are incapable of handling this type of direct approach, being indirect communicators themselves.

    This is not a negative, it is simply a truth.

    When intentionality = Tingles, then I will advocate intentionality.

    Until then, in THIS CURRENT WORLD, the only real thing that will keep a woman with you is your ability to bring the Tingle, coupled with whatever internal moral compass she has in terms of loyalty. The Church will be of little help in this department, because they will pander to her Holy Hamster.

  21. galloper6 December 15, 2013 at 10:30 am #

    AMEN Jack.
    The churches should stop setting up their sons for social failure. I believe a lot of young men leaving their church is rebellion against the social failure they were set up to. The way to get Christian fathers is to start as early as junior high. Give you boys game and CONFIDENCE. There is nothing holy about wuzzieness. By trying to protect our daughters virginity by handicaping our sons only results give bad dude and thuggo a free hunting ground. Another thing, if there is a shotgun wedding, better marry fellow christians than thuggo heathen harley ect.

  22. Random Angeleno December 18, 2013 at 12:54 am #

    Flirt early. Flirt often. Have fun. Life is way too short to take everything in such a deathly serious manner. There needs to be fun in conversation. It’s possible to do that and still be Christian.

  23. Aunt Haley December 18, 2013 at 1:37 pm #

    Part of the problem is that it’s hard to define what flirting is, and no two people seem to have the same definition. It’s too easy for someone to say, “Oh, I was just being friendly.” Plus, I feel like a lot of men interpret merely being spoken to as being hit on.

  24. deti December 19, 2013 at 8:22 am #

    Haley:

    Important points, yes. Something for women to remember is that if a man is talking to you, he’s probably at least a little sexually attracted to you. Men usually don’t waste time dealing with women unless there’s some sexual attraction there. And that isn’t a bad thing.

    Men need to remember that “female interest” and “female attraction” are not at all the same thing. Women can show “interest” in a guy without being “attracted”. Women are “interested” in men for all sorts of reasons, usually platonic in nature or because she is trying to extract some kind of help, assistance, favor or attention. So yes, the fact that a Christian woman is talking to a man doesn’t mean she’s “attracted”. It means she’s “interested”, usually because she wants something from him: help moving a heavy object, obtaining free advice, attention, validation, whatever.

  25. Deti Fan December 19, 2013 at 6:04 pm #

    Sounds like Christian women are “interested” in using men they aren’t attracted to as if they were objects and resources those women think they have a “right” to use.

    How very “godly” of them!

  26. Deti Fan December 19, 2013 at 7:07 pm #

    The problem with Christian dating is that the Church’s feminist mentality and irrational fear tells us all that men’s sexuality is a bad, dangerous, corruptive force that should be locked away from ever touching or thinking about all their sweet and precious, innocent, little angel daughters, who are too delicate and holy to be in our presence, for the irrational fear that we might corrupt their inherently virtuous nature by daring to confess something as devastating and damaging as “I like you.” So, in the over zealous name of “safety” and “guarding girls hearts”, the church buries godly Christian men in a world of blame and shame that is downright evil and oppressive.

    The church only considers the world of dating/courting/marriage from the female perspective, telling men that we need to change ourselves to adapt to the preferences of women and that we “just need to love women more,” but never telling women to change or adapt themselves to our preferences, or to do anything at all for us. They reinforce this by encouraging all the women to create long lists of unrealistic expectations by which to judge young men not even yet cable of fulfilling their every wish and desire, and encouraging the young women never to “settle,” but to wait for “God’s best,” that God himself never promises them. The Church limits relationships between men and women to the single direction of “men are to pursue women and women are to be pursued,” creating even further expectations of women to take and receive love and affection, but never to give anything back to men.

    And they never teach or instruct women to obey all the bible commands directed at them to be kind, respectful, encouraging, trustworthy, virtuous, avoid gossip/discontent/self-pity, never make your man ashamed, do only good to him, serve, honor, and appreciate all men, don’t be arrogant or self-righteous, consider others better than yourself, love all men like 1Cor13.

    Women think their half of the relationship responsibilities/effort is completely optional/conditional on their own feelings/opinions of men, but that men must still hold up our end of all those relationship responsibilities/efforts unconditionally.

    Women divorce their husbands for emotional/unbiblical reasons, celebrate that with their church friends, and encourage many other Christian women to do the same, and then they blame men for all their own sins and choices, while Churches and Pastors endorse all of this.

    And women still wonder why men don’t want to ask them out anymore.

    Hmmmmm!

  27. galloper6 December 19, 2013 at 7:20 pm #

    AND the feminized enviroment is the perfect hunting ground for pick up artists.

  28. jack December 20, 2013 at 1:53 pm #

    Plus, I feel like a lot of men interpret merely being spoken to as being hit on.

    This would also be true of about 90% of Church girls. Hence the “glare” they paint on their face – nature’s warning to the beta male to stay away from her precious beauty.

    Of course, the instant quick-change to doe-eyed and coy is activated by the presence of worship-team leader guy.

    An oldie but goodie:

    http://eumaios.wordpress.com/2010/01/05/sex-and-the-churchy/

    The money quote(s):

    ” But the young alphas had their harems, and the betas were very courteously HATE HATE HATED.”

    “These females were nauseated by the beta males they had no intention of dating. They are all sparkling eyes and luscious smiles for the young alphas”

    Lol… I could probably create a kind of “Christian p0rn” that consisted of nothing more that girls looking you in the eye and smiling, rather than doing the eye-dart.

    Ohhhh the reckoning that shall one day come, when the Lord puts their unrepented of arrogance on trial.

  29. galloper6 December 21, 2013 at 1:18 am #

    Amen Jack. And the worst part is these young men take it personally, because they were lied to the nature of women. Women were not repulsed by John Doe Christian for who he was but what he was.

  30. jack December 21, 2013 at 11:38 pm #

    Every single day, I teeter on the verge of jettisoning the moral principles that I have used up until now.

    Every single day, I think maybe I should follow the path that works.

    Besides, I am not going to find a wife with an N much less than 7 or 8, so I should just go ahead and run mine up to a couple less. Not like my future wife has any right to complain.

    If her N>10, I’d insist on a pre-wedding consummation. Just on principle.

  31. Deti Fan December 22, 2013 at 9:16 am #

    @Jack

    You have every right to be pissed at Christian Women and the lies we were all told, but you know that throwing out your own morality is not an acceptable solution to the problems you face.

    Jesus would not be cool with you “following the path that works” by ramping up your N count.

    Your only good choice is to improve the ways in which you relate to good women in moral ways that they would find attractive. You can hate the problems you face, but dealing with them in a more masculine/moral/responsible way will improve your odds of marrying the kind of woman that you would want to marry anyway. You don’t want a woman with an N count anyway, so don’t worry about their opinions. They don’t matter.

  32. jack December 22, 2013 at 2:21 pm #

    Deti Fan-

    And every day, I decide not to do that.

    I will note that once reaching 40, there are not very many chaste women left.

  33. innocentbystanderboston December 23, 2013 at 3:51 pm #

    The thinking goes something like this: we shouldn’t flirt because someone might misconstrue the flirting as more interest than is intended, which would be defrauding a brother or sister in Christ, and if you’re careless about misleading someone, you’re not showing intentionality. So flirting is out, and serious earnestness is in.

    Yes I think they can flirt, and maybe in some cases, they should.

    Christians who are married shouldn’t have to worry about flirting because they are married. If they are married, it is supposed to be for life. And one of the advantages of being married for life is that you needn’t worry about jealousy. (If a man is flirting with your wife in a public setting, it doesn’t matter if she flirts back, she is flashing her ring at him letting him know that she is taken.)

    And if you are single, flirting is critical to Christians. How are we supposed to know if one or the other is approachable to mating and marriage if we don’t send a signal to the other that we are in fact “approachable?” I never would have married my wife if we didn’t flirt with one another. So flirting for Christians, (whether they are married or single) is harmless.

  34. aaronthejust December 29, 2013 at 9:08 am #

    I have conducted experiments with dating young women who happen to be Christians. Thanks to years of refining of game, I can set up pretty much as many dates as I want. These girls are all around age 22-24, graduate students or just out of college, and go to church regularly.

    I’ve tried out several personas so far. Here are my results:

    1. Let it drop casually I’m a Christian (maybe mention I’ll be busy at a church function Wednesday night so I can’t meet up then). Results: about 2% go on a second date.

    2. Be “intentional”: make it known on the first date I’m looking to settle down, get married, have kids. Results: 0%, including a few who cut the first date short early.

    3. Hide my Christianity. Instead, enact the worst stereotype of a pump ‘n’ dump possible. Escalate to sex on the first date, don’t call back, etc. Results: 100%.

    I had to stop the experiment when I decided to stop fornicating.

    The conclusion is that Christian girls simply view Christian guys as betas. I now go on dates with non-Christian girls. They’re more receptive to the gospel.

  35. deti December 29, 2013 at 10:02 am #

    Aaron:

    I’ve read your experiment here and other places but hadn’t responded until now. I’m intrigued by this because it pretty much lines up with my premarital experience. If there was attraction there, and I pushed hard enough, claimed Christian conviction could be overcome. If there was attraction but resisted sex or didn’t push, I lost the girl. I failed a lot of times but I attribute this to honest Christian conviction (asserted almost 100% of the times I failed) or because she wasn’t attracted to me. What this shows me is that many Christian women are willing to have premarital sex with a man they’re attracted to.

  36. y81 December 29, 2013 at 1:57 pm #

    I doubt that the percentage of Christian girls willing to have sex on the first date is 100%. I have a hard time imagining either Haley or my wife doing that. However, I agree that girls expect the guy to push them sexually. (Maybe that’s not what they consciously expect, but it is the most effective approach.) So this advice about behaving like some sort of future father of America on the first date is all nonsense.

    Most girls fantasize about getting married, and, as Haley herself said, they aren’t fantasizing about having really boring, infrequent sex. Make real to her the knowledge that you can fulfill your part of the marital contract (hot sex, high status, and a good income), and her body will release the appropriate hormones.

  37. galloper6 December 29, 2013 at 6:51 pm #

    How about we start raising the church boys with real confidence again? Confident boys can better stand up to peer pressure to get into vices and trouble. Plus we can get a church of “Manly Men”. Once we have that, the women will follow.

  38. jack December 30, 2013 at 2:51 am #

    We have to destroy any white knighting tendencies in the men. We have to teach them that it is GOOD to have male instincts. We have to teach them to hold out for a chaste and worthy bride.

    NRFS ™.

  39. Ladd MaccAodh January 1, 2014 at 8:59 pm #

    Christians should practice flirting outside the church. All the game blogs in the world don’t help if you don’t practice; likewise, if everyone in church is bad at flirting, they should work on it rather than giving up.

    The trouble is not just the lack of skill, it’s the high consequences for failure. Say the wrong thing, and everyone else in your church knows about it. I recall a few bad episodes from my youth group when I was 15, including a few people moving to new churches. You can’t practice in that high-risk, low-reward environment. So take it elsewhere. Practice flirting in bars or bookstores with your freewheeling atheist friends or something. You’ll be facing temptations (hot alpha guys or willing women, depending). Even a complete amateur could accidentally say all the right things, after all.

    I can’t see a way to make that official church policy, but getting people out one by one to practice could catch on if it works.

  40. y81 January 2, 2014 at 6:29 pm #

    Regarding what Ladd MaccAodh said, none of this applies if you attend a megachurch. Just switch to a different fellowship group/affinity group/service and it’s a new life (and new girls). Plus in an urban megachurch, the cast turns over every couple years anyway. It’s funny, because we joined our church for totally different reasons, but the more I read about people with social problems in their church, the more I appreciate the megachurch environment.

  41. Aaron the Just January 3, 2014 at 5:31 am #

    @deti

    The experiment is truly odd because of the demarcation between success and failure. The breakdown of Christian women (drawn from mostly evangelical churches) is:

    2% if they knew I’m a Christian
    0% if they knew I’m “intentional” (i.e. fewer games)
    100% if they thought I’m just some jerk

    Amongst non-Christian girls, things are wildly different. I never bother pretending I’m not a Christian with them. If anything, it makes me seem more mysterious and enigmatic.

    The starkness of this tells me the blame cannot be assigned entirely to Christian women. Their experiences with Christian men must be quite poor in order to have this kind of adverse preselection.

    @y81

    You can doubt it’s 100% all you want, but I drew from a variety of evangelical and mainline churches. (I didn’t bother going after ultra-conservative Anabaptist or home churches. My sort of games wouldn’t fly nearly as well there, and most those girls don’t date or really socialise with the opposite sex at all.)

    “Most girls fantasize about getting married, and, as Haley herself said, they aren’t fantasizing about having really boring, infrequent sex. Make real to her the knowledge that you can fulfill your part of the marital contract (hot sex, high status, and a good income), and her body will release the appropriate hormones.”

    Girls fantasise about getting married, but not being married. I frequently run game as a potential good future husband/dad. The emphasis is on “future”: if I actually were a husband/dad, my imperfections would be revealed, and the ovaries of my wife would snap shut tighter than a steel trap.

  42. kp January 4, 2014 at 1:16 am #

    And that sounds about as exciting as brushing your teeth.

    You write like someone who’s never had one of those fabulous high-tech ultrasonic toothbrushes!

  43. neftali February 16, 2014 at 2:37 pm #

    Yessss, flirt, its human nature even inside church, there is nothing wrong in flirting as long as it doesnt go way out of proportion.

  44. Red March 16, 2014 at 3:59 am #

    Guys think I’m gross and horny because I flirt. They act like I have a disease. Unless they’re over 30. Then they start telling me things that I don’t want to know.

  45. Red March 16, 2014 at 4:02 am #

    The problem is not that women don’t want to have sex, but that the ones who have a low drive are at the top of the pecking-order, because they don’t have to feign disinterest.

  46. Andrea (gradstudentgirl) May 18, 2014 at 9:59 am #

    I was always told flirting=seriously sinful. However, the definition of flirting has always been rather vague. Does teasing back and forth with a guy constitute flirting? How about joking back and forth? When a guy teases you, should you look at him very gravely and take it seriously? Is it wrong to laugh and toss a witty remark back at him? At some point, I decided to stop worrying about it. Guy teases me, I will tease him back. Life is more fun that way, and certainly less awkward than a deer-in-the-headlights expression

  47. Chris Dagostino May 18, 2014 at 11:28 am #

    Nothing sinful with flirting and/or dating, as long as there’s nothing overtly indecent about it. Sounds like you were the victim of the sexual segregation that the Purity Pharisees like Josh Harris started.

  48. Red May 18, 2014 at 5:58 pm #

    ^ If it’s an emotional argument, it *must* be right, and everyone *must* get on the bandwagon. “Let’s make sure Christians never, ever do it. Paul.” About the stupidest idea anyone’s ever had. But maybe if they keep on trying, it’ll work eventually.

  49. Red May 18, 2014 at 6:02 pm #

    @Andrea, that’s not a “deer in the headlights expression,” that’s a man using his beautiful eyes and penetrating gaze to look into your soul and intoxicate you. If you can’t tell the difference, then there’s something wrong with your soul.

  50. Andrea (gradstudentgirl) May 18, 2014 at 7:21 pm #

    Not really following you, Red. At any rate, I meant that the proverbial deer was *my* previous approach to dealing with guys flirting/teasing.

  51. Red May 19, 2014 at 10:22 am #

    Oh, well don’t do *that*! Don’t be one of those! :P

  52. galloper6 May 19, 2014 at 6:05 pm #

    The churches keep push rules of matching up that seem to be made by clergy that are already married , (decades ago). These rules sure sound pious and holy. The problem is , they dont work these days if they ever did. If Christians followed these fine sounding rules none would get married.

  53. Andrea (gradstudentgirl) May 19, 2014 at 8:42 pm #

    Pretty much. While these rules might work for a rare couple here or there, they don’t work well for many others.

  54. Red May 20, 2014 at 3:55 pm #

    “Please wear a modest, one-piece bathing suit.”

  55. Karley July 13, 2014 at 8:20 am #

    Lighten up. Live. There is only one life. Be kind to others. Apologize when you’ve wronged someone. Flirt. Work. Be happy. Give to good causes like feeding the poor. Relax…you’re not going to hell after all.

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. Dark Brightness | Game for nerd (girls). - December 12, 2013

    […] But this takes practice. It’s like many social skills: the way to learn it is to do it. In a controlled setting. The trouble is finding such settings. The formal dance scene used to be good — but I stopped going to Ceroc dances when single because the male players were sniffing around and I found their manipulations nauseating. The zombies rot everything. And this means that things become boring and stale and not at all exciting, as Auntie Haley points out. […]

  2. Daily Linkage – December 14, 2013 | The Dark Enlightenment - December 14, 2013

    […] Should Christians flirt at all? | Haley's Halo […]

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