Should Christians EVER go on dates with (presumed) non-Christians?

2 Jun

For those of us who have grown up in the church, probably the cardinal rule of dating that is hammered home again and again and AGAIN is to never date an unbeliever.  This is because if you date an unbeliever, you will have premarital sex, never go to church again, and basically ruin the rest of your life.

When you’re in high school, or even college, this seems like pretty solid advice.  For girls, you are advised to keep holding out for that ambitious young man who loves Jesus and is a spiritual leader and material provider who will love you sacrificially and be a good father to your children whom you will raise in the faith, trusting God every step of the way as this young man challenges you to grow in your faith and prays for you to love Jesus even more as you have your couple devotions which he leads.  You know this guy is out there, because God is writing your love story and you are using this season of singleness to fall in love with Jesus even more in anticipation of the spiritually appointed meeting of this young man, who is also using this season of singleness to grow into the strong, faithful leader that God intends him to be.  Sure, you’re frustrated because the guys in your youth group seem immature and only interested in the popular girls (which you are not one of), but you can hold out, because you can’t imagine your life beyond age 25 and by then you’ll surely be married.

I’m not sure what the equivalent advice for guys is, but I’m guessing it’s some combination of never looking at porn, confessing your boners to other men, and praying and averting your eyes when you feel temptation.  Also, praising God for redeeming the precious young women in the group who had been deceived by men who only wanted to use them for sex.

And again, all this seems like a solid game plan……..provided you’re married by age 25.  It’s just – what about the rest of us for whom that cutoff point passes, and we’re still single?

By this point, you are:

  • out of college
  • in the workforce, full-time
  • starting to feel uncomfortable in “college & career” settings
  • but too young to be part of the “dregs of the church SMP baby mamas/broken divorced people singles” scene at church

The young married people you know have fallen into the Young Marrieds Abyss, where conversation now revolves around mini-vans, preschool, coupons for Kohl’s, and recipes on Pinterest.

The older married people you know don’t know any young singles to introduce you to, or if they do know anyone unmarried, that person would not be a good match for you.

As a good Christian, you do not troll bars, and if, on the off-chance, you happen to go to a bar with some friends (where you feel very uncomfortable), you are DEFINITELY not there to meet men, because good men don’t go to bars – especially not to bars with the goal of meeting chicks, because everyone knows that girls who go to bars are trampy sluts – and a marriage-worthy Christian man would NEVER look for wife material at a bar – and so you know going in that you have already written off every man in the bar, full stop.

So you go through some very long dry spells where the most male attention you get is from a 44-year-old church creeper from the singles group, but there’s a kind of cute guy at work who probably is not a Christian, and you know this because he sometimes drops the F-bomb, but he’s nice to you and you think that sometimes he’s sort of flirting with you, and after a while you start wondering…….would it really hurt so much to go on a date with a non-Christian??  I mean, a date is not a proposal, and you’re 30/32/35/38/41/43 and not getting any younger.

At this point, Christian advice tends to bifurcate.  On the one hand, you have the hard-liners who feel that The Bible Says, and if you never go on that first date with a non-Christian, you will never have to deal with all the problems that come from Unequal Yokeage, which is the whole point of The Bible Says in the first place.  Plus, where is your faith?  God can work miracles.  Keep hoping and praying for your miracle.  Everything God does is perfect and in His own time – there will be so much greater and more rejoicing as you look back on this season and recognize His faithfulness to you.  And if you never meet anyone, then that is God’s plan for you and you can serve Him so much better as a single person, anyway.  Those people who have to spend time with their children?  They can’t serve at church potlucks and crisis pregnancy centers the way you can.

On the other hand, you have the people who approach dating slightly more recreationally.  These people don’t see the harm in going out with someone because it’s Just A Date, and Just A Dates don’t have a lot of big-picture significance.  Why not spend some time getting to know someone else?  It’s just a date, and early dates are casual.  No harm, no foul.  Plus, if you start to get a reputation for saying no to those who ask, eventually NO ONE will ask.

The two positions, as far as I can tell, are irreconcilable.  If you go to a church full of The Bible Says-ers, you will be frowned upon if word gets out that you went out with a non-Jesus-lover.  (You can tell if you attend such a church, because if you mention a young man to the women at church, the first or second thing they will ask about him is if he is a Christian.  If you say “no” or “I don’t know,” they will immediately advise you never to date a nonbeliever.)  But – are you doomed to zero dates over the course of a decade or more, potentially turning down a number of men just because they swore in front of you?  Is it really worth being alone all the time?

I don’t know what the answer is.  I just feel frustrated with the state of things.  And I feel despair when I read comments like this one from MontanaMoxie at Boundless:

I enjoyed listening to the panel discussion on 2nd dates. It sounds like CO Springs has a pretty great Christian singles dating scene.  Maybe I ought to move there!  Just kidding, of course…but I’ve been a little discouraged this weekend.  I’ll be turning 33 years old this week, and I haven’t ever been on a first date as an adult, let alone a 2nd date.  I don’t know how I’ll get to marriage someday (something I highly value, study and prepare for, desire, respect, etc.) if I can’t even get to a first date.  I suppose I’ll keep asking God to work a miracle, because I think that may be what it will take!

Really?  REALLY??  I know the Christian wing of the manosphere loves to focus on tearing apart and mocking the Saved Single SlutMoms, but there are a bunch of MontanaMoxies in churches, too – girls who have been churchpilling all their lives and have gotten nowhere romantically by doing so.  They’ve been told to trust God, and fall even MORE in love with Jesus, and to stay chaste, and to look for that Strong Leader Guy, and to IKDG and not date casually, and to keep hoping and hoping and hoping and praying and praying and praying – and the clock keeps running.  Meanwhile, guys feel like they’re at a job interview when they go on Christian Dates.  In the same thread at Boundless, Corwin aptly sums up the Christian Dating Problem from the male perspective:

I’ll be completely honest with you, I hate Christian dating, haven’t been on a date in well over a year, and have little interest in dating a Christian girl ever again because it often seems like first and second dates are more like a driver’s licence exam than a social evening. Did he show ability to take risks by asking me out in person? Nope, he used Facebook — two demerits. Did he show ability to provide by jumping up to pay for my $3 coffee? Nope, he was in the bathroom when I ordered, so I had to pay — three demerits. Did he show leadership by picking a venue conducive to conversation? Nope, he took me to a crowded place that he should’ve known would be too loud to talk deeply — six demerits…and that’s a fail for this dude’s godly husband potential.

Of course I’m exaggerating, but I really have found that the expectations and judgements that are made on Christian first dates are quite extreme. I really don’t think you can accurately assess anyone’s leadership or provider or parenting potential the first time you go out with them. No one is truly themselves on a first date either due to nerves or trying to be impressive, yet statement like “if he can’t lead a first date, he can’t lead your children” make it sound like it’s totally legit to give guys one high-pressure shot to prove who they are to women.

Christians love to talk about how “the world” is so messed up and “worldly” dating is so messed up – maybe they should look at the church, because as far as I can tell, it’s not any better inside the church.

Sorry if this is a downer, guys – just feeling frustrated at the moment.

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120 Responses to “Should Christians EVER go on dates with (presumed) non-Christians?”

  1. Toz June 2, 2013 at 4:51 pm #

    Gotta say, I enjoyed this post. It brought me back to my single days at church.

    First thing to note, dating is not an intuitive institution. As a practice it’s only been around 150 years or so. And in that time it’s gone from something closer to old-time courting to a hookup. So it’s no wonder the church, and most Christian singles don’t know how to do it “correctly”.

    Second, too many Christians, when it comes to dating, are immersed in theory and have zero clue about practice. Hence all the girls asking guys questions about what their plans are for kids on a first date and guys that are mind-numbingly boring. Way to kill any fun vibes! Way to make things artificially super-serious… I do a facepalm every time I hear about the ideals of single Christians who haven’t been on a single date. You’re going to throw most of the theory out the window within a week, if that, because it’s simply not practical.

    Third, there’s a whole world of Christian internet dating sites. There’s a reason they’re raking in profits. It’s a safe environment to get some practice. Go get some experience, geez.

    Anyway, the advice for the girl in your post is exactly what you’ve been saying for a while now. Get fit, lose some weight, start dressing better. It’s amazing how many girls I’ve seen in Christian single groups that suddenly find their soul mate as soon as they do those things.

  2. ar10308 June 2, 2013 at 5:17 pm #

    I think going on a first date with a person whose faith you aren’t sure about is perfectly reasonable. Say for it someone you pass on a daily basis, but don’t really know for sure about. You won’t know about them until you find out. The worst thing that could happen is you spend an hour drinking coffee with someone who turns out to not be a Christian. And nothing could be better than finding out that you just met a person who has all the Christian qualities you are looking for in a mate.

    Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

  3. seriouslypleasedropit June 2, 2013 at 5:18 pm #

    One point: note the discrepancy between how a young man’s life is described to his female peer, and how it’s described to him. She’s being told that God is using this season of singleness (love how you kept using that phrase, ha) to mold him into a strong, faithful leader. He, however, (although he may hear lip service given to that) is mainly told: “Knock off the porn.” Not that he shouldn’t, but what exactly is his end game? “Get married.” Okay, but what does that *mean*? It turns out there is quite a difference between what the Bible means when it says “married” and what modern culture means. Even if he is told to “become a leader,” it’s only in the “you are responsible if anything goes wrong with your family” sense, not in the “and in order to help you fulfil that responsibility, you’re the one in charge.”

  4. The Man Who Was . . . June 2, 2013 at 5:58 pm #

    OK, let’s drop some truth here.

    1. Dating non-Christians is absolutely out for women. You aren’t going to learn anything useful from it, because girls don’t need to learn how to run game of any sort. All Christian men care about is if you’re pretty, nice and a committed Christian. You could fall in love with someone, have pre-marital sex, end up unequally yoked, all of which are unacceptable. There are no upsides.
    2. Dating non-Christians could have some limited use for men. You are getting some practice on how to behave around women without having to make all your embarrassing rookie mistakes in your social circle. On the other hand, many of the same risks of pre-marital sex, falling in love etc. apply as much to men as women. Also, dating hypersexual non-Christian women will train you to behave in a manner that can be extremely counterproductive in dealing with go-it-slow Christian women. At most, you should be dating these women purely for practice only. No sex and no thought of marriage. After 2 or 3 dates, don’t bother, as you will either be expected to have sex or be friend zoned.
    3. Attend every single young adult type church social event you possibly can. Talk to people there. If you don’t do this, you don’t deserve to get married.
    4. Find a church where lots of single people are. Go to it, at least sometimes. This may mean the dreaded megachurch, but assuming the theology isn’t total junk, go.
    5. Get on Eharmony and other Christian dating sites and stay on. None of this “I was on for 3 months and didn’t meet anybody even remotely interesting” bullshit. You are in this for the long term, so get on and stay on. For years, if necessary. If you don’t do this, you don’t deserve to get married. Period.
    6. If you are a guy, experiment with your profile/pictures/approaches. See what works. Be prepared to put in the time (possibly years) and fail a lot. Get advise from female friends on pictures and photographs (but nothing else). Talk to other guys who are on those sites. If you don’t know any, find some. If you don’t do this, you don’t deserve to get married.
    7. If you aren’t getting the kind of matches you would like, expand the geographic area of your search. If you still aren’t getting the kind of matches you would like, expand it even more. If you aren’t prepared to spend the dough to actually meet in person the people you meet online, you don’t deserve to be married. If you aren’t prepared to make the time (and career sacrifices that go along with time) to meet the people in person you meet online, you don’t deserve to get married.
    8. If there are not a lot of single Christians in your area, move to a place where there are more. Less populated areas have more Christians by %, but less in absolute numbers, so move to a larger population centre. Be prepared to spend the money necessary to do this. If you don’t, you don’t deserve to get married.
    9. If you are a guy, learn at least day game. In fact, it is way safer than night game (bad things happen when alcohol is involved. You should be able to start a conversation with a total stranger and get contact information. If you’re city has no good places for practicing this, you need to move to one that does.
    10. Ladies, go out with any guy you are even a little bit attracted to and keep going out with him until he either starts to grow on you or the thought of sex with him utterly repulses you.

    A lot of these things will require effort and sacrifice (like moving to new city) on your part. But, as I keep repeating, if you don’t do them, you don’t deserve to get married. Period.

  5. The Man Who Was . . . June 2, 2013 at 6:04 pm #

    8a. There will be more single Christians on dating websites in major metro areas. Lots of people have geographic limits on their matching, so this will expand your pool of possible mates.

  6. Paul Durow June 2, 2013 at 6:35 pm #

    Devliniana.

  7. seriouslypleasedropit June 2, 2013 at 7:11 pm #

    Man Who Was, I disagree that Christian women have nothing analogous to game. They do, and just as women enjoy being gamed, men enjoy its (different, more subtle) feminine counterpart.

  8. The Man Who Was . . . June 2, 2013 at 7:35 pm #

    SPDI:

    If a women has a choice between being pretty and having good “girl game,” she should go for looks every single time. If you are trying to decide between going to the gym and learning girl game, go to the the gym every single time. If you are trying to decide between spending money on attractive clothes and learning girl game, get the clothes every single time. If you are trying to decide between learning how to put on makeup properly and learning girl game, learn about makeup every single time.

    Girl game = be pretty + go where single men are + be nice + don’t be a total bore (+ maybe, maybe initiate a conversation yourself). The kind of girl game you are talking about has only the most minimal effect on your SMV.

  9. The Man Who Was . . . June 2, 2013 at 7:39 pm #

    Even if we grant that “girl game” is important, there is basically nothing a woman could learn from dating non-Christian men that she couldn’t learn from interacting with men on an everyday basis. There is no need to practice dating.

  10. ar10308 June 2, 2013 at 7:54 pm #

    I’m in total agreement with TMWW. The only other young, single woman in the small church I attend is not very attractive at all. I’m talking like 2 or 3. She is pleasant, kind and funny. She does her best to stay in shape and dress well. She has decent Girl Game. Unfortunately for her, there is nothing she or I can do to make her attractive to me.

  11. Anthony June 2, 2013 at 8:10 pm #

    As a pretty secular guy, I’m going to say that Man Who Was… is at least partly right. If you’re a committed Christian, and you want a committed Christian spouse, don’t date non-Christians.

    But.

    That doesn’t mean don’t date non-zealots. There are plenty of people of the opposite sex (whichever sex you are) who have some belief, who feel some pull towards leading a Godly life, but who aren’t going to church every sunday, or who let an f-bomb slip out once in a while, or who drink socially, or who associate with non-Christians a lot. Don’t reject someone out of hand because they’re a sinner – you are, too. If you find someone who is Christian at heart, but has been slipping into the secular culture, the two of you may be able to keep a more Christian life together than apart.

    However, if you’re Christian, don’t date someone who calls themselves an atheist or an agnostic or “spiritual but not religious” (that last applies to any sensible person, Christian or not), or who is Jewish, or who is constantly complaining about Christian influence in politics, or who is vehemently pro-abortion, or who doesn’t ever want children. These people are lost to you – you’re not going to make good Christians of them, no matter how hot you are/how much game you have.

  12. Clint June 2, 2013 at 8:31 pm #

    I upped my “game”. I went from a 4 to an 8ish. Lots of work. But I am a better person, better man, better Christian because of it.
    I stumbled upon a group of 8ish Christian girls who mastered “girl” game.
    They were just waiting for a Christian man to come along and game them.
    I definitely appreciate the fact that they were waiting for a real Christian man.
    I was looking for a real Christian women.

    Let the games begin.

    I don’t think its fair to anyone to date someone of another faith unless you are indifferent to ending up married to someone of another faith. Otherwise you are just using them for practice, or fun, or something else. If you are a Christian I don’t think you can reconcile that with your beliefs. Of course playing by the modern Christian dating rules which are inconsistent and have nothing to do with the bible anyway, we are producing a lot of desperate, unattractive singles who are going to start compromising or find they have the “gift of celibacy”.

  13. Deep Strength June 2, 2013 at 8:49 pm #

    As I wrote at SSM’s:

    http://sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com/2013/05/28/should-a-christian-husband-withhold-sex-to-punish-a-misbehaving-wife/#comment-7475

    Men are pretty much only attracted to a women through their physical appearance. Your physical appearance basically tell us whether we would pursue you in a relationship or not.

    However, your personality is what keeps you around. Some men have more tolerance than others for the BS and other nagging that women have, as long as she is beautiful. But in general, high value men will have less tolerance for the BS and nagging simply because they have more options.

    Basically, if a girl wants attractive men to ask her out she should:

    1. Wear tasteful makeup
    2. Dress nice
    3. Workout (physical based)
    4. Don’t get fat or if she is overweight or obese lose the weight (nutrition based)
    5. Be available to Christian men. That means don’t hang around your guy and girl friends when but rather position yourself closer to the man so they can get to know you.

    Summary: improve her physical appearance AND make herself available so that a man will notice her and ask her out.

    To keep him around the personality that she should develop as is follows:

    1. Be feminine — not an independent go-getter, you go grrrrl, etc. Men don’t want to date another man, sorry.
    2. Be nice.
    3. Don’t nag.
    4. Learn how to cook and other household duties (the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach).
    5. Support him and his interests (e.g. learn how to be a helpmeet as a Christian).

    All of these 10 things women can work on even while she is single.

  14. choking on red pills June 2, 2013 at 10:01 pm #

    Ref: Corwin’s comment –

    Been there done that. I signed up with a dating agency which would arrange 12 dates for me as part of the deal. I’ve been on 9. At the start, I paid for all the dates (including the subsequent ones) and drove each girl home. After stumbling upon the manosphere, I realised that paying for expensive dinners no longer demonstrates value because they are earning as much as, if not more, than I do. I’ve since informed the agency that I no longer want to do dinner dates.

    Conversations are a downer too. Within the first few questions, the women will start asking about what I do as a living to size me up. They would sneak in a question about whether or not I own a car (which is a status symbol where I live) and how often I travel. They would ask about my hobbies. I played along at first but again, learning from the manosphere, I decided to ask them about the other aspects of their lives, other than jobs and hobbies. One girl played along but things didn’t work out because her expectations were too high. Another gave me a blank look when I asked her about her favourite childhood memory.

    Blind dates, IMO, are really a “hit and miss” thing. I’m inclined to believe that a setting or environment where there is constant contact and being able to see each other often (e.g., serving in the same ministry or same small group) will perhaps give more space for both the guy and the girl to get attracted.

  15. Natalie June 2, 2013 at 10:17 pm #

    Dear Church,

    Stop taking dating so seriously. At some point (shortly after the 3rd-5th date) I do believe some intentionality should arise – is this all just for fun or does the gentleman believe this is heading somewhere? Before then – leave your lists at home. Forget your questions. Talk about books, Sunday’s sermon, that show on tv, etc. If you can do this a few times and not find any major red flags (ie he wants to be a full time potter at a commune in Santa Barbara or she wants to fly internationally for Delta) then maybe you have something. Maybe. But you’ll never find out until you have a few laughs over grape snow cones.

    Oh, and give that whole “defrauding” thing a rest? For reals. A few dates with a guy/gal who isn’t a good match isn’t stealing from anyone’s prospective spouse. To be frank, all that pressure is making it highly unlikely that there will ever be prospective spouses for either of them. So cool it. Hearts aren’t that fragile. Purity doesn’t get smudged by a little friendly hand-holding.

    Sincerely,

    A girl who is aghast at how close she came to be caught in that trap.

  16. Hana June 2, 2013 at 10:40 pm #

    I guess I don’t understand why someone would go on a date with a non-Christian if they were 100% against a relationship with a non-Christian. I mean, isn’t a date supposed to be the precursor to a relationship? If you’re interested in a relationship with a non-Christian, then I understand going on a dates with one, but otherwise, I don’t see the logic in that.

  17. Cave Pilot June 2, 2013 at 10:57 pm #

    Date early, date often, date many people. Date non-Christians. Date within reason (the ex-convict fresh out of prison – skip them). Learn to drink.

    Most women like to think they know men. They don’t. Until you’ve been rolled (reference intelligence/counter intelligence uses) at least once, you haven’t met the enemy. Dating a lot of men in intelligent situations gives you a larger sample size to compare men to. In the past, women could rely on fathers, brothers, or a husband to keep them clear of predators. Now, a woman needs her own sense of men.

    TMWW – most women will not get to know men through daily interaction. The primary location for daily interaction is the workplace, and that is not what it was. Until a woman learns to operate in environments where she is more vulnerable, it remains a gap in her armor against being seduced. It is one thing to be able to handle a work place predator. It is wholly another when she gets off a 12 hour flight that got diverted and is having dinner in a hotel dining room with a friendly fellow passenger.

    Men need to date lots of women too. This isn’t advocating sleeping around, hooking up, or whatever it gets called today. Men are just as vulnerable, and there are most assuredly female predators out there. A married man can be a notch on their bedpost, a man who hasn’t heard their siren call before is just as vulnerable as a sheltered woman who hasn’t been up against a predator before.

    Alcohol. Learn your limits, this is invaluable. Some of the most important work of my life (keeping people alive) was enabled by bonds created during serious drinking. Stupid? Clearly. Real? That is how some parts of the world work. Men and women should know their limits with alcohol, sleep deprivation, dehydration, exhaustion, starvation, etc. All of those conditions make you more vulnerable to suggestion and bad decision making. You need to learn your limits in safe environments, not when you are tired, dehydrated, and a friendly stranger (who seems very familiar) suggests a little wine to take the edge off. There is clearly risk in this, and you must guard against addiction and self-deception. There is also reward in being able to operate in more environments. The Bible counsels against drinking to excess. Jesus also turned water into wine to keep a party going. Apparently it was pretty good wine too.

    Profanity versus obscenity. Taking the Lord’s name in vain is a sin. Dropping the F-Bomb is bad manners. True, a century ago you could probably have dueled to the death over bad manners, but these days dueling is illegal and you are barely allowed to kill people trying to actively kill you. Times have changed. I don’t condone profanity or obscenity, but I am far more concerned with one than the other.

    We are all sinners. The moment we think we are better than other people, we forget how flawed we are. Work to marry fellow Christians as shared ideology is critical to a successful marriage. Feeling that we are too good to date someone as their ideology isn’t as pure as ours is amazingly presumptuous. We can always deepen our understanding, and learning occurs in the strangest places with the least likely people sometimes.

    Lastly, “pretty, nice and a committed Christian” is only enough to open the door. If she isn’t a full peer of equivalent intelligence, skill, drive, knowledge, and commitment, I’m not interested. She isn’t there just to marry and make babies with, she is also integral to raising our children to the fullest of their potential. That requires education, motivation, confidence, and being morally straight. Pretty and nice are just prerequisites, not the main credentials. She is my partner for the rest of my days, my wise counsel, my sure comforter, my best friend.

    – Cave Pilot

  18. deti June 3, 2013 at 6:24 am #

    TMWW is right about “Girl Game.”

    Girl game is:

    1. Be pretty
    2. Don’t get fat
    3. Be nice
    4. Be available

  19. deti June 3, 2013 at 6:32 am #

    “I’m not sure what the equivalent advice for guys is, but I’m guessing it’s some combination of never looking at porn, confessing your boners to other men, and praying and averting your eyes when you feel temptation.”

    Yeah, pretty much. Also, we Christian men are told that our sex drives are evil, abnormal, predatory, dangerous, violent, and borderline criminal. We are told that women are pure, innocent, sweet, kind, unassuming, and virginal. If there are any Christian women out there who “stumbled” and fornicated, then it is because some man out there tricked and duped her into

    “Also, praising God for redeeming the precious young women in the group who had been deceived by men who only wanted to use them for sex.”

    As above. ‘Man up and marry the sluts!’ Men are told that the women in the church, whether virginal or not, just want to get married, and it is our DUTY as Christian men to wife up one of these girls ASAP. We’re not just encouraged, we’re COMMANDED to do so; and if we don’t, well, we’re obviously maladjusted basement dwelling video gamers.

  20. Austin June 3, 2013 at 6:45 am #

    1. Anthony makes the same point I was thinking of making and I agree with his assessment. Don’t discount some guy just because he isn’t super devout. When my wife and I started dating I wasn’t some holy-roller at church on Sunday never cursing praying unceasingly just waiting for the right girl Christian. Almost NO men are that way. The few men I met that were that way were weird. Creep vibe for reals.

    2. Natalie, she’s got it right also. Chill out church. Getting coffee can mean getting coffee. There is a dance that goes along with starting a relationship and sometimes you have to make sure you’ve got a potential partner that has some sort of coordination. If you think that getting coffee or grabbing lunch, or even dinner with a dude is going to lead you to dropping the drawers in an alley behind the Starbucks, then you have squirrels juggling knives in your head. Stop taking things so seriously, it’s harmful. If you listen to some church pastors, they’d suggest that a man get a signed recommendation from three church leaders, a no porn certification letter, and a declaration of intent prior to calling a woman.

    Other thoughts:
    Don’t forget that the church is full of beta and omega fellas who HATE the idea of competing for women. They can and will manipulate the dating scene in a church to eliminate competition. If this means adding rule after rule to dating, making the hoops almost impossible for a man to jump through, then so be it.

    The church seems bent on getting men to settle down and get married. What does that mean? Settle down from what? And why do they ignore the parts of the Bible that recommend AGAINST marriage unless you are unable to control your physical desires? I see a lot of man-shaming for not getting married. It makes me think that the church is just serving the interests of the women and the men are not providing the leadership or checking against the sometimes harmful influence of the women in the pews.

  21. deti June 3, 2013 at 6:48 am #

    “Most women like to think they know men. They don’t.”

    This is an excellent point. It goes the other way too — most men like to think they know women and what they want; and most men don’t.

    Most women seem to labor under the following erroneous notions:

    1. They have all the time in the world to find a spouse.

    2. They are as pretty at 31 or 41 as they were at 21.

    3. Men have no sexual standards; they will have sex with any woman who makes herself sexually available to him, no matter how unattractive or impersonable or unpleasant she is.

    4. “He had sex with me = he loves me.”

    5. “I could get a smokin’ hot alpha stud for sex; therefore, I can get one for marriage. There is no reason for me to lower my standards.”

  22. deti June 3, 2013 at 7:02 am #

    “Really? REALLY?? I know the Christian wing of the manosphere loves to focus on tearing apart and mocking the Saved Single SlutMoms, but there are a bunch of MontanaMoxies in churches, too – girls who have been churchpilling all their lives and have gotten nowhere romantically by doing so.”

    Haley, I have no doubt there are such girls. My experience is they fall into the following camps:

    1. The Evangelical American Princess. She is above average in physical attractiveness. She’s hot and SHE KNOWS IT. She is way, way above all the men at her church. So she dates Alpha McGorgeous and Harley McBadboy, and occasionally has sex with a few of these men. There is no. way. in. the. world that she is going to even consider dating a guy from her church. Not going to happen. Full stop.

    2. Unattractive girls. These are the ones who believe that being devout will attract a man. They do nothing to improve their appearance. Some of these girls are physically unattractive and there is nothimg that can be done about it. Some of these girls have various forms of social disorders, ranging from pleasantly quirky to downright frightening mental disturbance. It is what it is.

  23. Austin June 3, 2013 at 7:52 am #

    I think “deti” has listened to some Mark Driscol sermons…I have and deti just summarized about 45% of his Sunday speeches in his two short paragraphs.

    Feminism has run rampant in the church. A lot of the women my wife deals with in her Bible studies are Christian feminists who spend 50% of their social time at church talking about “submission and following their husbands lead” while spending the other 50% of their time inserting themselves into the other girls marriages in order to question and nit pick the way that woman’s husband leads. “Why doesn’t he just…” “You should tell him he can’t…” blah blah

  24. ar10308 June 3, 2013 at 8:07 am #

    “A lot of the women my wife deals with in her Bible studies are Christian feminists who spend 50% of their social time at church talking about “submission and following their husbands lead””

    At least they bother to give it lip-service. I find that amazing nowadays.

  25. The Man Who Was . . . June 3, 2013 at 4:15 pm #

    Some of the commenters here bring up an interesting point: is it OK for Christians, particularly men, to date simply to gain experience in dealing with the opposite sex? Is that legitimate? Are you using the other person? Is that moral? Are you essentially lying about your intentions by doing this? Let the discussion begin.

    Some considerations:

    1. Many non-Christians will be looking to use you (for sex, for free food and drink). Is it fair to use them back?
    2. Women, Christian or non-Christian, will _not_ fall in love with you after a couple of dates. You will not usually be breaking hearts here. At best, you will be causing some mild disappointment.
    3. This goes double for very attractive women.
    4. Given todays dating environment, even among devout Christians, many guys will simply never get married unless they get some experience with women.

    I can kinda see both sides. My general thoughts are that you should only be “practicing” with the most attractive girls. You should not be “climbing the ladder,” using less attractive women to gain experience towards getting the girls you really want. That’s just mean.

    But I’m open to other arguments.

  26. The Man Who Was . . . June 3, 2013 at 4:18 pm #

    So she dates Alpha McGorgeous and Harley McBadboy, and occasionally has sex with a few of these men

    The “Princess” you describe comes in two varieties, one as you describe, and the other who remains chaste. Both think they are too good for the men they meet in church, but that doesn’t mean they will sleep with other men or even necessarily date men outside the church.

  27. The Man Who Was . . . June 3, 2013 at 4:25 pm #

    There is a real danger in viewing dating and relationships in terms of tactics etc. in adopting a mechanical and reductionist view of relationships with the opposite sex. It strips things of all idealism and takes away the sense of the sacred from these precious things. Of course, something like Boundless is the yin to our yang here: overidealism to the point of absurdity.

    Sometimes, I wonder if I haven’t fallen off into the abyss. What is the balance?

  28. y81 June 3, 2013 at 6:39 pm #

    “If a women has a choice between being pretty and having good “girl game,” she should go for looks every single time.”

    That seems so empirically wrong to me, and so readily falsifiable. As I have said before, just go the church nursery after the service for pick up time, look around you, and you will definitely know that good looks have only the remotest connection to finding a husband.

  29. The Man Who Was . . . June 3, 2013 at 6:46 pm #

    good looks have only the remotest connection to finding a husband.

    And the hamster spins on.

  30. Hermes June 3, 2013 at 6:51 pm #

    Kohl’s

    You rang?

    Just kidding, Haley. You’ll be pleased to know I’ve moved on to Banana Republic and Nordstrom Rack.

    starting to feel uncomfortable in “college & career” settings

    Whoa, really? By age twenty-five? I know to some “college & career” means just-out-of-college, but where do late twenty-somethings go in your church?

    My church may be unusual in that the closest thing we have to “college & career” is a group for ages 22-35, both single and married (they wouldn’t want anyone to think it’s a meet market, despite everyone knowing that’s what it is.) I’ve now aged beyond the upper bound, but am nowhere near checking out the 36+ “singles” group, which, rumor has it, consists of fifty-something divorcees.

    Incidentally, I thought it was OK go to back to the 22-35 group once in a while for the first 6 months or so after I turned 35, because I have a good relationship with a number of people there, and no one knows my age. A few months ago, I went there and met a seemingly sweet, cute, 24-year-old who had just finished grad school and gotten her first real job. After talking to her a few times and having good conversations, I asked her to lunch after church (to which she agreed without hesitation.) Afterward, in the parking lot of the restaurant, remembering the advice of some in the Christian manosphere that sometimes just showing some guts is enough to tip you over into alphahood in the girl’s eyes, and thinking a Churchian girl like her probably reads a lot of Boundless-type advice about how guys need to be “intentional” and thus would appreciate this, I foolishly forced myself to say something like “listen, you seem like a really sweet and sincere girl, and I’d like to get to know you better.” Her response was “hmm… can we talk about that later?” Then after a day, she proceeded to call me and basically give me the Josh Harris/Betty Elliott spiel. That was the end of that.

    I don’t want to date non-Christian girls, but if the alternative is the above…

  31. Hermes June 3, 2013 at 6:52 pm #

    Correction: after I turned 36, not 35.

  32. y81 June 4, 2013 at 5:55 am #

    Man Who Was: Have you done the empirical test I advocate? Or are someone who knows everything already without checking because the Bible tells you so? Go to the church nursery after the service this Sunday and report back to us on the numbers of 10s you encountered.

  33. Deep Strength June 4, 2013 at 7:24 am #

    y81:

    Many women let themselves go in marriage. That doesn’t prove anything. Indeed, after pregnancy there is almost always going to be excessive fat from it. The wives should aspire to lose that weight though.

    Additionally, men have wider attraction filters for women.

    If a woman wants to attract a Christian man, or any man for that matter, for a relationship she must put time into making her physical appearance look better. Unless she is already naturally beautiful.

    Sorry, but that’s how God made men. We first look on a woman’s physical appearance to see if we want to ask her out for a relationship.

    Her other attributes such as personality, Christian, etc. come into play after we are attracted to her physical beauty.

  34. The Man Who Was . . . June 4, 2013 at 8:09 am #

    y81:

    Hamster

  35. y81 June 4, 2013 at 9:09 am #

    Leaving the world of mindless insult behind, and returning to the original post, I really feel for MontanaMoxie. Imagine never having had a date in your adult life! Although I have to say, it isn’t clear that Haley has ever had an actual date. Brushing arms with a guy at a movie screening doesn’t count.

    What I don’t understand is why God’s Perfect Plan, which we know encompasses things like having a slave trader turn, and be saved, and write “Amazing Grace,” couldn’t encompass meeting, and dating, and marrying, a non-churchgoer, and being the vehicle for his coming to Christ. Especially since we know, (i) based on elementary mathematics, that one-third of the unmarried women in church cannot find a spouse there, no matter what The Bible Says, and (ii) based on a review of the sociological literature, that the less devout partner in a marriage normally assimilates to the views of the more devout partner.

  36. The Man Who Was . . . June 4, 2013 at 9:24 am #

    I don’t want to date non-Christian girls, but if the alternative is the above.

    The problem is that the alternative to dating Christian girls is . . . dating whores.*

    *”normal” women not actual prostitutes

  37. Deep Strength June 4, 2013 at 9:35 am #

    Especially since we know, (i) based on elementary mathematics, that one-third of the unmarried women in church cannot find a spouse there, no matter what The Bible Says,

    That’s the part that makes me shake my head.

    The church has become Churchianity — thoroughly feminized with calls to man-up every other sunday with virtually no submission preaching to women.

    Is there any other reason why men wouldn’t want to associate with such a monstrosity that lays all of the blame for relationships on them without giving them any authority to lead?

    The church has caused all it’s problems by assimilating feminism into it’s teachings instead of relying on the Scriptures for truth.

  38. Buckaroo Bonzai June 4, 2013 at 10:52 am #

    @deep strength

    The Western church has indeed become churchianity. I no longer consider it to be the true church. It’s simply a Christian club and business that kisses the butts of its best customers. True gospel is no longer preached, appearance is of more importance than truth. If Jesus, Paul, or John the Baptist were to come to a “church” and preach real truth, there would be screeching from most of the men and women that “They’re not being nice! Cast those insensitive heretics out!”

  39. Fred June 4, 2013 at 1:37 pm #

    Largely irrelevant because Christians and old folks are the only people still going on courtship type dates.

    Most relationships actually begin post intercourse. Pick up, hang out, have sex, and then maybe date (or not).

  40. Samson J. June 4, 2013 at 6:36 pm #

    @y81:

    That seems so empirically wrong to me, and so readily falsifiable. As I have said before, just go the church nursery after the service for pick up time, look around you

    I think she’s got a good point here, fellows, one that has been dismissed unfairly. I always felt that as long as a girl met my minimum “threshold” for looks, her niceness and general easiness-to-get-along-with were far more important than extra hotness. I think this more than ever with the benefit of actual marriage experience, which teaches me that if you want your marriage to succeed, you darn well better LIKE being with the person you’re married to.

    There’s a young woman at my church who sometimes works in the nursery; she also babysits for us, and she is not extremely attractive, but she is so charmingly kind and feminine that I’ve thought, “If I were young, and had to do it over again…”

    @Hermes:

    I don’t want to date non-Christian girls, but if the alternative is the above…

    Yeah, I hear you, Herm. Christian dating is artificially tough. I remember years ago, on a Christian web forum I used to frequent when I was in university, posting a thread wondering “why Christian women are so boring!” One of the great things about learning Game is that you get to see just how pleasant young women can be when they like you, and for all the cynical talk about how “women are whores”, the fact is a lot of pagan young women I know are pretty fun and enjoyable to be around. By contrast, if I hadn’t found my wife, whose personality really, really clicks with mine, I don’t know where I’d be, because I don’t meet too many Christian women that I find very interesting, to be honest.

    One of the biggest problems plaguing young men and young women in the church is what I call the “perfection” problem. It’s not uncommon to read young Christian women lamenting that “even the church guys only go for the hawt chicks. Aren’t they supposed to be Godlier than that?”. But the reason for this behaviour is the perfection problem: the way a young Christian man thinks is, well, if I only get to have sex with one chick, ever, then she damn well better be HOT. That’s why Christian guys can be even more picky than secular guys when it comes to appearance. And young women can be similar in their quest for alphatude: if I’m going to have to stick with one guy for life…

    Then after a day, she proceeded to call me and basically give me the Josh Harris/Betty Elliott spiel.

    I don’t know who Betty Elliot is, but I think you should keep trying. (Not with this chick.)

    Remember, if you’re trying online dating: don’t make the mistake of reading a detail or three about someone and forming an opinion on what they “must be like”. No one is a caricature; give them a chance.

  41. Deep Strength June 4, 2013 at 7:03 pm #

    I think she’s got a good point here, fellows, one that has been dismissed unfairly. I always felt that as long as a girl met my minimum “threshold” for looks, her niceness and general easiness-to-get-along-with were far more important than extra hotness. I think this more than ever with the benefit of actual marriage experience, which teaches me that if you want your marriage to succeed, you darn well better LIKE being with the person you’re married to.

    I agree with the minimum looks threshold. I would bet at least 80+% of girls would meet that minimum looks threshold if they were normal weight.

    However, depends on where you are. More than 80% of my church’s young adults group (22-35 or so) is moderate to severely overweight or obese. And consider that this not out of the norm almost 70% of the US is overweight and at least 33% are obese and it’s only getting worse.

    Very overweight and obese women rarely meet the minimum look requirements for men.

    Obese women, unless you are one of the few men who have an fat fetish (yes, there are some guys who love that) are like a supplicating doormat man to women. Very unattractive.

  42. The Man Who Was . . . June 4, 2013 at 7:17 pm #

    Samson:

    If y81 is implying looks won’t help, to the point where there is no noticeable difference between those who do get married and those who don’t, or even that the less attractive girls are noticeably more likely to get married, then she’s being a retard. The only possible way that could happen is if the more attractive girls are rejecting all the guys in the church as beneath them.

    As I noted, a girl doesn’t really need any sort of “girl game.” It’s just be pretty, be nice, don’t be a complete bore, be available. Very basic.

  43. The Man Who Was . . . June 4, 2013 at 7:21 pm #

    Samson:

    Also, as another commenter has pointed out, even if the less attractive women are the ones more likely to be married, this could be because they are somewhat older and may also have let themselves go.

  44. Aunt Haley June 4, 2013 at 8:57 pm #

    Hana–

    I said “presumed non-Christians” in the topic name, meaning people whose faith you don’t know for sure or who may seem like nominal Christians – people who fall into the category described by Austin and Anthony. I didn’t necessarily mean people openly professing a different faith.

  45. Aunt Haley June 4, 2013 at 9:05 pm #

    Hermes–

    Props for trying. She might have put you in the friend zone because of the age gap – safe to chat with and go to lunch with, but if you didn’t flirt a little with her right off the bat, she was probably spooked by your “I would like to get to know you better” speech. I think in cases like that, where the girl’s buying temperature isn’t that high yet, it’s better to approach it as “hey, you’re really cool, we should do this again.”

    Also congrats on your sartorial evolution.

    Man Who Was–

    y81 is a dude, not a chick.

    Samson–

    “Betty” Elliott is better known by her full name, Elisabeth.

    As for the perfection problem, I think that’s a big part of it. If you can only have sex with one person, EVER, you really don’t want to waste that shot on someone who only moves the needle to 4 on a scale of 1-10, no matter how gainfully employed he is. Also, if you know that men, even dweeby men, want their wives to be their personal porn stars, then it’s pretty unfair to marry someone who you prefer clothed at ALL times.

  46. Pirran June 5, 2013 at 7:14 am #

    Talking about the “messed up” Church. Here’s “Ria” in the comments talking about her boyfriend:

    “But he is a great leader in other areas……………..he confesses when he messes up”

    There. Right there. Be my leader and supplicant. Show me what to do and then apologize for it. Inspire me with your dominance and then throw yourself on my mercy for hurting my feewings.

    Oh yes, and when I divorce you because I’ve lost all respect for you (for apologizing as I demanded), kindly disappear from the Church where you will be persona non grata.

  47. ASDF June 5, 2013 at 10:15 am #

    If you are serious about your Christianity and eventually ending up with a Christian, don’t do it. Not even coffee. Take it from someone who’s spent years in the game “dating” secularists and is having a hard time getting out.

    1. Sex is on the table. Maybe not on this first coffee chat with the nice guy at work, but sometime down the line. Maybe you just get a kiss on the cheek and things fizzle out after date number 2. But now your threshold is cheek kissing, and lips are next. Coffee dates, if successful, always lead to evening dates. It can’t be helped. Despite all those lists out there, it is actually really hard to plan more than a few “fun” dates before saying “why don’t we just grab a beer?”. And before you know it you’ve got six under your belt and you’re heading back to his condo for some Wii Tennis or to watch a funny 80’s movie. It is a law like gravity.

    2. Unequal yokedness is a real thing. There are lots of non-religious guys who would be fine to date. But it WILL bother you long term, especially if you have kids. Or it won’t bother you because you will become non-religious yourself. Secondly, the absolute best case scenario of converting them before marriage would take years, including determining if they’re actually right for marriage. Do you have that sort of time to spend on someone?

    Legit lapsed Christians can be brought back from the dark side, but be mindful that you’re running risks 1 & 2.

  48. ivvenalis June 5, 2013 at 12:43 pm #

    I think the ultimate answer is “don’t waste your time”. The basic reason is that if you’re even asking this question then you value your spouse being a Christian more than any non-Christian values not having sex with you.

    If you’re not sure, one date is probably fine, but again, don’t waste your time. Ask them upfront about their faith. You don’t need to be to pushy about this, but you need to bring it up.

  49. The Man Who Was . . . June 5, 2013 at 1:54 pm #

    ivvenalis:

    Yes, it’s ok to do an exploratory date to get more information about them. An easy way to find out about their faith is simply to bring up yours. Mention church going or something like that.

  50. jz June 5, 2013 at 5:16 pm #

    I’ll write in favor of unequal yokedness.
    I was a lapsed apathetic Catholic. My husband was a devoted Christian; clearly the strong moral compass of the two of us. He explicitly stated that marriage would be contingent upon my reintrenching in faith. I did ; it felt scary. My faith was mostly in his moral leadership.
    Now, advance the calendar two decades: I am equally versed in the Bible, equal in faith, and , I feel, equally reflect my faith in my actions. When I met him, I detected a bit of smug superiority based upon his religious beliefs and knowledge. I’ve done him the favor of challenging and coaxing him off his Christian pedestal.

  51. Samson J. June 5, 2013 at 6:25 pm #

    @Man Who Was…

    If y81 is implying looks won’t help, to the point where there is no noticeable difference between those who do get married and those who don’t, or even that the less attractive girls are noticeably more likely to get married, then she’s being a retard.

    Of course you’re right. I guess I thought that she was clearly being hyperbolic. I have an awful tendency to do that. Viz:

    @Haley:

    Also, if you know that men, even dweeby men, want their wives to be their personal porn stars

    I don’t really think most Christian men do want this, just so you know. I certainly don’t, and didn’t. It seems to me that you’ve been learning a lot through this blog experience, Haley, and that’s great, but I would advise you not to believe that manosphere participants are in every way reflective of the average guy out there.

    f you didn’t flirt a little with her right off the bat, she was probably spooked by your “I would like to get to know you better” speech.

    Ah… back in my undergrad days, I went on a date with a chick I was into. It went well, I felt, until the end of the date when she was getting out of my truck and said, “So, um… I didn’t know this was a date. I’m actually already dating someone.” And then fled.

    @jz:

    I’ll write in favor of unequal yokedness.

    You’ve got a great success story there, but it’s wildly different for a Christian man to date an unbelieving woman than vice versa. (I think unequal yoking should still be avoided, but at least the odds are much better for the man.)

  52. Hermes June 5, 2013 at 9:44 pm #

    Samson,

    If you didn’t know, Elisabeth Elliot (who parlayed her first husband’s death into a writing and speaking career) wrote a Christian relationship book in the early 1980’s called Passion and Purity that was quite influential in evangelical Christian circles. I haven’t read it, but based on reviews I’ve read, while she differs from Josh Harris in some of the details, she advocated the same hyperspiritualization of relationships to the point where no earthly relationship could ever possibly be good enough, and the same basic approach of becoming friends with someone in a group setting first, and not really spending any one-on-one time together nor having any physical contact whatsoever until you’re already sure he or she is the person you’re going to marry.

    Haley:

    My age never came up in any of my conversations with her. She never asked, and I never told her, nor did I mention, e.g., when I graduated from high school or any other factoid that could have clued her in. I’m not saying I know for a fact she wasn’t aware of my age, but I have no indication that she was, either.

    There’s a little more to the story in that she didn’t grow up an evangelical; she told me she was a “rebel” as a teenager and partied-hearty in college before getting saved sophomore or junior year. So she could easily be a reformed slut, which could be both a reason why she wasn’t that interested in me (alpha widowhood,) and a reason why she might not be a good match for me anyway. I’d be in the classic manosphere position of being the beta chump now paying through the nose for what she gave up for free to alpha douchebags when she was younger, hotter, tighter. It would burn me up to know that at age 19 she was spending her Saturday nights getting her nubile young body butthexed on a beer pong table in a dank frat house basement by some dumb jock who barely knew her name, and then six years later, this guy who spent those same Saturday nights in college in his dorm room playing computer games, horrifically intimidated by such people, has to invest thousands of hours “spending time together in groups” according to Josh Harris’s rules, so she can “observe my character,” ascertain whether we have similar spiritual gifts, verify that I have a “servant’s heart” through doing service projects together, determine whether I’m sufficiently spiritually advanced to be her “spiritual leader,” and ultimately, maybe, after extensive prayer and multiple meetings with our spiritual mentors, feel led by the Holy Spirit to see that I am the man she is to marry, so that we may cautiously begin a “courtship” and finally begin spending one-on-one time together. F that noise!

    You mention flirting with her. That’s where I feel the IKDG mentality makes you damned if you do, damned if you don’t. On the one hand,women need to be flirted with and have a response in order to pump their buying temperature and actually want to be with a guy. On the other hand, a girl who has bought into IKDG thinks that flirting, along with all the other worldly accoutrements of dating, is so evil and wrong that she flees at the merest hint of it.

    But yeah, I was talking about it with one of my best Christian friends, a guy who hasn’t quite swallowed the red pill yet but is a true Christian and not just a Churchian, and he said “you probably should have just said ‘hey, I had a good time; let’s get together again’ and then arranged to do something else with her a few days later.” I agree. That might have just done an end-run around the whole IKDG mentality.

    y81:

    When I pass by the nursery, I don’t see any 10s, but I do see plenty of fairly cute 7s I would have happily married had I gotten there first. I don’t see too may obese, frizzy-haired, no-makeup, no-eyebrow-trimming 2s.

  53. Aunt Haley June 5, 2013 at 10:23 pm #

    ASDF–

    You still read this blog?!?!

    Hermes–

    On the other hand, a girl who has bought into IKDG thinks that flirting, along with all the other worldly accoutrements of dating, is so evil and wrong that she flees at the merest hint of it.

    NOPE. If the guy is attractive enough to the girl, she will NOT run off scared that he flirted with her before “getting to observe her character” in a group setting. Granted, the guy may need to have some obvious alpha traits for her to ditch the IKDG mentality – and even then she may have doubts and try to make him jump through some hoops – but ultimately the excitement he generates will win her over if he plays his cards right.

    All women want attractive men to flirt with them. ALL.

    Also – and please don’t take this the wrong way – but unless you genuinely look 25-28-ish and act that way, that girl knew you were older.

  54. ASDF June 6, 2013 at 7:58 am #

    You still read this blog?!?!

    From time to time. Part of my program to de-Roissify myself (for lack of a better term) is to stay offline as much as possible. As with innocent coffee dates, good websites lead to bad ones!

  55. Hermes June 6, 2013 at 11:14 am #

    Well, it did occur to me that IKDG could be conceptualized as just another fitness test, in that a guy successfully breaks through that wall by being attractive enough. As I said to another female friend who agreed with me, if Bradley Cooper or Ryan Gosling had said what I said to her, she probably would have replied “sure! I’m free on Friday!” (And backwards-rationalized it by telling herself that this was in compliance with IKDG rules because she already knows his character in a group setting well enough to know he’s the one she is to marry.) On the other hand, women have to be realistic. There aren’t enough alphas to go around. Joshua Harris had no problem because he was that heartthrob of devout evangelical girls in every church, the youth pastor. But there’s only one youth pastor, and maybe a few volunteer subordinates, in every church. If every girl in church demands an alpha, most are going to wind up unmarried.

  56. whatever June 6, 2013 at 4:03 pm #

    SPDI:

    If a women has a choice between being pretty and having good “girl game,” she should go for looks every single time. If you are trying to decide between going to the gym and learning girl game, go to the the gym every single time. If you are trying to decide between spending money on attractive clothes and learning girl game, get the clothes every single time. If you are trying to decide between learning how to put on makeup properly and learning girl game, learn about makeup every single time.

    Girl game = be pretty + go where single men are + be nice + don’t be a total bore (+ maybe, maybe initiate a conversation yourself). The kind of girl game you are talking about has only the most minimal effect on your SMV.

    You seem to forget that most people, men and women alike, in America are extremely crazy. Because of this, I have to say, when choosing whether to go to the gym or stop acting crazy, choose stopping acting crazy every time.

    For example, let’s look at Twilight or the Vampire Diaries.

    DID YA KNOW YOU CAN JUGGLE TWO ALPHA MEN AT ONCE FOR MONTHS AND THEY WILL ONLY COMPETE FOR YOUR LOVE HARDER? AND NEITHER WILL F’ YOUR BEST FRIEND AS A “JOKE”?

    OR:

    DID YOU KNOW YOU CAN TEASE THE EVER LOVING F’ OUT OF A GUY, ANY GUY, NO MATTER HOW DRUNK, GO BACK TO HIS PLACE WITH HIM, ALONE , AND HAVE ABSOLUTE FAITH THAT HE WILL NOT PUSH YOU INTO A “CLAW HIS FACE” OR “HAVE SEX” SITUATION? DID YOU KNOW THAT? DID YOU KNOW THAT?

    OR:

    DID YOU KNOW THAT OTHER GUYS ARE TURNED ON BY YOU BRAGGING AND COMPLAINING ABOUT YOUR PAST BOYFRIENDS? DID YOU KNOW THAT? DID YOU KNOW THAT?

    On the male side, I would say:

    SARAH IS SO PRETTY. I CAN’T BELIEVE SHE IS TALKING TO ME! STAY CALM. I WISHED SHE LIKED ME. WHY IS SARAH PLAYING WITH HER HAIR? MAYBE SHE HAS DANDRUFF. I WISH SHE LIKED ME. WHY IS SARAH LAUGHING AT WHAT I SAID? OH GOD OH GOD I’VE EMBARRASSED MYSELF. OH GOD I’M SO UPSET. SARAH WILL NEVER LIKE ME NOW! OH NO, NOW SHE ISN’T EVEN PAYING ATTENTION TO ME BUT IS JUST ADJUSTING HER SKIRT AND HER BLOUSE. I HAVE BLEW ANY CHANCE I EVER HAD. I WISH SARAH LIKED ME.

    OR:

    NO WOMAN TALKED TO ME FOR YEARS SO I’LL MARRY THE FIRST ONE THAT TALKS TO ME. THAT WILL WORK GREAT.

    OR:

    WHEN YOUR GIRLFRIEND WHO HAS HAD SEX WITH YOU COMES OVER AT 11 PM AT NIGHT TO “HELP YOU STUDY” SHE ONLY WANTS TO HELP YOU STUDY! IF SHE LATER BREAKS UP WITH YOU FOR “NO REASON” IT IS BECAUSE SHE IS AN ALPHA CHASING WHORE, NOT BECAUSE YOU REFUSED TO SEX HER AS SHE SAT ON YOUR BED WITH HER LEGS SPREAD. (that’s wisdom of Whiskey, by the way, he really did manage to lose a girlfriend that way)

    OR:

    BUY LOVE! BUY LOVE! BUY LOVE! BUY LOVE! BUY LOVE! IT WORKS GREAT! IT WORKS GREAT!

    Let’s fix crazy first.

  57. galloper6 June 6, 2013 at 6:26 pm #

    Reminds me of an incident in college many years ago. In a small prayer group, a young zealot with a beauty queen on his arm suggested with a high and mighty attitude how I could have a “wonderfull spiritual relationship” with the group’s fat girl. I said nothing in reply being extemely angered. What should have been the best reply?

  58. Hermes June 6, 2013 at 7:24 pm #

    To say “my fist could have a wonderful spiritual relationship with your face” and then punch him.

  59. galloper6 June 6, 2013 at 8:14 pm #

    No point in being hostile to him. Now I understand he was talking without thinking. Now I would bring up that sacrafice for the faith is SOOOO easy when done by others. It seems that the Haves cannot understand the Have Not’s perspective.

  60. Aunt Haley June 6, 2013 at 9:16 pm #

    Hermes–

    On the other hand, women have to be realistic. There aren’t enough alphas to go around.

    Everyone needs to be realistic. There aren’t enough thin, pretty, 22-year-old virgins with no career aspirations or feminist brainwashing to go around, either.

  61. The Man Who Was . . . June 6, 2013 at 9:48 pm #

    Everyone needs to be realistic.

    This is true, but it’s especially true for women.

  62. Anthony June 6, 2013 at 11:07 pm #

    Shorter version of my advice, based on Haley’s reply to Hana: Don’t presume someone’s not a Christian until they’ve demonstrated it.

  63. deti June 7, 2013 at 10:23 am #

    “Hermes–
    “On the other hand, women have to be realistic. There aren’t enough alphas to go around.
    “Everyone needs to be realistic. There aren’t enough thin, pretty, 22-year-old virgins with no career aspirations or feminist brainwashing to go around, either.”

    That may be, but most men are realistic enough to understand they won’t get all of that. Most men are realistic enough to know those women are going to men more attractive than they are. Most men are realistic enough to stay within their relative SMVs and attempt assortative mating. Most men are realistic enough to settle for a plump, kinda sorta cute, 28 year old woman with some, ahem, MILEAGE with a job and crows feet and a muffin top who thinks she’s ENTITLED to Brad Pitt/Warren Buffett/George Clooney/Billy Graham, and with whom there is a one in two chance she will frivorce him.

  64. The Scolds' Bridle June 7, 2013 at 10:54 am #

    The whole “demerit” thing is not what it appears to be. It is not an actual real-time measurement of mate potential, it is a woman rationalizing her decision that they guy is not hot enough for her.

    This is sexual rejection cross-dressing as “honest evaluation”.

    You can bet that she would look the other way on all those “errors” for a man who induces the Tingle.

  65. FuriousFerret June 9, 2013 at 6:04 pm #

    “Sorry if this is a downer, guys – just feeling frustrated at the moment.”

    Haley don’t you think it’s time to just stop? You’re alpha isn’t coming. Your whole blog’s existence is predicated on the concept of gaming the system to find your alpha against all odds. It’s time to accept that notion that God won’t deliver you your alpha male. He just won’t. This was determined on the day of your birth where your genetics dictated that your aren’t physically attractive enough to lock down an alpha male, which puts you in the same boat with most women.

    As for dating outside the church, go ahead and do it. Look at the state of American Christianity. Take a good hard look at these people. Are they really the ones you want to take advice from? Everything is a ploy. They determine who is a ‘real’ Christian based on if you follow their insane customs and propaganda.

    Go ahead and date anyone. A lot of guys have left the church because they couldn’t take the feminization. The ones left standing in the church are the ones that weren’t culled. The ones that would follow and not stand against. There a plenty of quasi Christians that aren’t involved anymore because of the state of affairs. Just state the rules with the guys you want to see and they either be ok with it or not. You determine your own fate. Who cares if you turn your back on the church community. What does it matter? Do they really care about your interest or their own?

    Despite your age, you still have the advantage of not being an alpha widow. If you stick with betas you won’t even know what you are missing, you will just have a feint urge unlike your alpha junkie sisters. Heroin I have heard is the best feeling in the world. Better than anything. I have no doubt this is true. I never ever want to even think about trying hard drugs because once you try it, you’re done. You will always want it. I don’t crave heroin because I haven’t ever injected it. Same with alpha, it’s just a notion right now, it’s doesn’t have to control you if you take a stand right now and face reality. Beta is ok for you. It was ok for the most of the women in your family line and it will be ok for you if you just let go.

  66. Random Angeleno June 11, 2013 at 10:33 am #

    missed the discussion. interesting one.

    I’m openly dating a girl who’s not that Christian though she knows of my Catholic faith. The available women in my parish aren’t interested, haven’t ever been with the possible exception of the obese ones or the too-old ones, so the heck with them. As a Catholic, I’m not interested in checking out other denominations. If that makes me a bad guy for contemplating a relationship with this one, so be it. I lead, she follows, she’s been willing to do that so far. Add feminine dress, demeanor and good physical fitness; she doesn’t have to be full-on Christian: what she has is good enough for me to follow up on.

  67. Austin June 13, 2013 at 6:20 am #

    “Man Who Was: Have you done the empirical test I advocate? Or are someone who knows everything already without checking because the Bible tells you so? Go to the church nursery after the service this Sunday and report back to us on the numbers of 10s you encountered.”

    OK y81 – I thought this was a perfectly fair request so I did as you advised and observed last Sunday. I first do a Sunday School class at 9 at a large church and then drive over to my “home” church, which is much smaller, for services at 11. I’ve got kids that I drop off regularly, but I’ve never paid attention to the women around but this time I did. I noticed:

    -Younger moms dropping off babies, almost all of them were pretty hot. Not perfect tens, but a couple of 8 to 9s and a bunch of 7-8s. All had at least 2 outstanding characteristics that a man could enjoy for a long time. Combos, I call it. Examples, big beautiful eyes with a decent chest, banging butt with awesome hair, very pretty face with a thin body, you get the idea.

    -Moms with kids 3-7, again, pretty decent looking. The quality drops a bit here, but there were several 9s who obviously take very good care of themselves. They distracted me a bit so I don’t have a lot else to say about this group. I did see a couple of non-attractive women, frumpy, overweight, etc. They looked like they had given up a bit. I noticed them because they were the ones staring at the 9s with wonderment and confusion.

    -Moms with kids 8 and over, wow, a big drop in quality. I can understand that these women are older and aren’t going to have the 24 yr old’s skin or tone, but dang, the frumpiness is strong and their personal presentation lacked any effort. Again, occasional exceptions, but not many. These women looked as if femininity was a foreign concept or something they rejected years ago.

    All things considered, the married women dropping off kids at the nursery seemed to be better looking than the ones who were not. Hardly scientific, but that’s my one day observation. I was disturbed by the change in quality as the women aged. Something had changed in the mindset of those girls…scary for a married guy like me. I still think my wife is hot, but she does NOTHING to maintain her body, she’s just blessed. For now.

  68. van Rooinek June 13, 2013 at 9:44 am #

    ….the cardinal rule of dating that is hammered home again and again and AGAIN is to never date an unbeliever. This is because if you date an unbeliever, you will have premarital sex, never go to church again, and basically ruin the rest of your life

    Generally only Christian MEN heed this advice.

    The women run wild with nonbeliever men, “having fun”, and if challenged on it, will dishonestly assert that there aren’t any Christian men available.

  69. van Rooinek June 13, 2013 at 9:46 am #

    Faced with the choice of”

    a) sin with NonChristian Alpha
    b) marry Christian Beta
    c) stay alone…

    Almost all Christian women will pick a) or c).

  70. van Rooinek June 13, 2013 at 10:25 am #

    On the other hand, women have to be realistic. There aren’t enough alphas to go around.

    Everyone needs to be realistic. There aren’t enough thin, pretty, 22-year-old virgins with no career aspirations or feminist brainwashing to go around, either.

    There is, however, significant asymmetry of experience here.

    A male 9 will never, never marry less than a female 9 because he knows he can get a 9 girl *eventually*. But, since men are the more sexually desperate sex, in a promiscuous culture where marriage is unnaturally delayed (ie, ours), if Mr. 9 can’t find a female 9 *tonight*, he will settle for a female 5 or 6 for short term satisfaction.

    By contrast, a female 9 can get a male 9 any time she wants — she never needs to go down the ladder for satisfaction, and virtually never does.

    The result: Many, many women have sexual encounters with partners much more attractive than they could ever hope to marry.

    This does NOT happen to men. Mr. 6 may long for Miss 9 but, he has known since high school (where he may have learned the hard way) that the 9’s are out of reach. Mr 6 is therefore realistic, and readily dates any willing female 6. But if Miss 6 has been f***ed by male 9s, she will reject her equal, Mr 6, as though far beneath her…. sometimes quite rudely.

    What if Miss 6 is a virgin? Doesn’t matter. Because, outside Christian ciricles — at the market, at the gym, in the mall, etc, — she STILL gets approached by male 9s. They only want her for a short term sexual fling but she doesn’t know that. All she knows is that out in the world, male 9s approach her regularly. But in church, only 6’s approach her (the righteous male 9’s having been all married off long ago..)

    So her idea of what she can attract is STILL distorted by the promiscuous SMP, even though she is righteous. Being approached by 9s’ in the world (who only want quick sex) deceives her into thinking that she can pull a 9 for marriage in church. NO.

    Bottom line: Men are FAR MORE realistic about what they can attract, than women.

  71. van Rooinek June 13, 2013 at 10:44 am #

    Ladies:
    Your marriage market value is NOT equal to the hottest man you ever slept with.
    Your marriage market value is NOT equal to he hottest man who ever asked you out.
    Your marriage market value is equal to the hottest CHASTE man who ever asked you out.
    If you have beta orbiters, your marriage market value is likely equal to your hottest orbiter.

  72. galloper6 June 13, 2013 at 12:42 pm #

    Austin , I bet the church you discribed has lots of zealot young men.

  73. Aunt Haley June 13, 2013 at 10:02 pm #

    Because, outside Christian ciricles — at the market, at the gym, in the mall, etc, — she STILL gets approached by male 9s. They only want her for a short term sexual fling but she doesn’t know that. All she knows is that out in the world, male 9s approach her regularly. But in church, only 6′s approach her (the righteous male 9′s having been all married off long ago..)

    If male 9s are not regularly approaching me for sex or otherwise, does this mean I’m a 3?

    I think most men project onto women a lot more approaches from attractive men than is the reality.

  74. van Rooinek June 14, 2013 at 8:49 am #

    If male 9s are not regularly approaching me for sex… does this mean I’m a 3?

    As I said a couple of posts up: Your marriage market value is equal to the hottest CHASTE man who ever asked you out. The hottest chaste guys who ask you out, are a good measure of your own MMV. Or your hottest beta orbiter, if you have any.

    For what’s worth, I hate the 1-10 numbering system. Despise it, really. But for purposes of explaining the asymmetric attraction distorting effects of the promiscuous SMP, using numbers — eg “She’s a 6 but she thinks she’s a 9 ‘cuz a 9 slept with her once” — is the simplest way to illustrate the principle.

    does this mean I’m a 3?

    If you really need to know…. post pics on Hot or Not.

  75. van Rooinek June 14, 2013 at 8:53 am #

    In a small prayer group, a young zealot with a beauty queen on his arm suggested with a high and mighty attitude how I could have a “wonderful spiritual relationship” with the group’s fat girl… What should have been the best reply?

    All together now…. drum roll…. “Let’s Just Be Friends!” Turnabout is fair play.

  76. Hana June 14, 2013 at 2:06 pm #

    Ladies:
    Your marriage market value is NOT equal to the hottest man you ever slept with.
    Your marriage market value is NOT equal to he hottest man who ever asked you out.
    Your marriage market value is equal to the hottest CHASTE man who ever asked you out.
    If you have beta orbiters, your marriage market value is likely equal to your hottest orbiter.

    I’m not sure I agree with this either, because the general idea seems to be that the non-chaste men asking a woman out are always “hotter” than the chaste ones. I think it might hold true above a certain threshold of attractiveness and at a certain age…meaning college-age, when peer pressure encourages girls to make themselves sexually available to the hottest guys for a fling. But even, these girls are making themselves available (to the hot sports players, etc., like Karen Owen). They’re dolling themselves up and chasing the hot guys; the hot guys are mostly not approaching them in random places like the mall.

    Anyway, it definitely doesn’t hold true for me, because the “chaste” (ie. Christian) guys who have asked me out have always been more attractive than anyone who’s approached me in a random public place. (Not that I’d call them “hot”, necessarily, but at least more attractive than any random pursuers!) I think my friends would say that’s mostly true for them as well; they’ll tell stories about the “creepy” guys who approached them in the store, etc., not hot strangers asking for their number. And they end up going out with Christian men…not people approaching at random.

  77. The Man Who Was . . . June 14, 2013 at 5:20 pm #

    Generally only Christian MEN heed this advice.

    I don’t think this is actually true, at least in areas where it isn’t usual for people to be “Christians”. May be true in places like the South where there are more nominals. But then that’s the real problem there, isn’t it?

  78. The Man Who Was . . . June 14, 2013 at 5:22 pm #

    I think most men project onto women a lot more approaches from attractive men than is the reality.

    Yup. Unless you go to the bar, you probably aren’t getting approached a lot by anybody.

  79. Samson J. June 14, 2013 at 7:54 pm #

    I don’t think this is actually true, at least in areas where it isn’t usual for people to be “Christians”.

    Of course not, Thurs, but our American friends seem to have a singularly hard time grasping this.

  80. Badger June 17, 2013 at 8:47 am #

    I too have noticed the split in advice and outlook as people get above age 25 or 28 – I covered some of it here: http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/wide-filters-for-online-dating/. This is outside the church community, in the secular pale where I make my residence.

    Haley: “I think most men project onto women a lot more approaches from attractive men than is the reality.”

    TMWW: “Yup. Unless you go to the bar, you probably aren’t getting approached a lot by anybody.”

    I have a couple of threads from this. First, just as a note on what I’ve observed across all blogs, I’ve come to recognize “I think most _____…” as a rhetorical stub that indicates an oncoming gross generalization with possible comfort-thinking.

    Second: I understand both your points, and they have value in the sense that hot women aren’t getting phone numbers thrown at them at the grocery store. However, you have to account for context, which dictates daytime flirting is going to be much lower key. As a dude, if you’ve initiated ANY kind of social contact with a woman, that’s an approach.

    I wonder if you are considering an “approach” to be a semi-formalized “hey how are you, my name is , insert flirt here, we should go out on a date.” That is only going to happen regularly at a meat market eveningtime joint. What is going to happen in daytime is a dude smiles at her at the coffee joint, says “that was a tough workout” at the yoga studio, asks her to pick out bananas in the produce section, and so on, and if they strike up a conversation, they might get a “meetup” lined up later.

    An attractive woman living a single lifestyle IS going to get a lot of approach opportunities during the day – but during the day she has to do more work to move them forward, to create the safe environment for the man to escalate the flirting and line up another meeting (the environment is presumed in a bar/club/pub/party atmosphere). It’s a bit of a script-flipping, in the daytime a dude will generally only respond to her signals that it’s safe for him to go on, because the public-shaming price of a failed aggressive day pickup is high.

    A socially confident guy (which an attractive man is by definition) is going to be “open for business” at all times, so the opportunities are there, and they are there for hot women much more than others.

  81. deti June 17, 2013 at 8:51 am #

    van Rooinek:

    It just strikes me that this same basic, fundamental principle about asymmetrical experiences has to be explained over and over and over again to women, even to Haley, who should know better.

  82. van Rooinek June 18, 2013 at 10:02 pm #

    Haley: the cardinal rule of dating…is to never date an unbeliever

    vR: Generally only Christian MEN heed this advice.

    TMWH: I don’t think this is actually true, at least in areas where it isn’t usual for people to be “Christians”.

    Samson J: Of course not, Thurs, but our American friends seem to have a singularly hard time grasping this.

    Well… the Los Angeles area is most assuredly, an area where it “isn’t usual for people to be Christians.” There’s no broader social pressure here to belong to church (rather the reverse), and the church is not the center point of the society. So this isn’t Bible Belt *at all*. Indeed, since being a Christian is an act of antisocial rebellion around here, churches tend to have a significant EXCESS of single men, the reverse of the situation that is claimed in the Bible belt.

    So yea, I have a pretty darned good grasp of Christian dating dynamics in a nonChristian environment. And yes: even with so many Christian men to choose from around here, the Christian women think NOTHING of dating (and worse) with non-Christian Alphas. While legions of good solid Christian men are ignored. The guys, unless they are brand new believers who don’t know any better, generally avoid dating nonbelievers like plague.

  83. y81 June 19, 2013 at 3:36 am #

    Churches in LA have an excess of single men? Is that true? Haley? I find it hard to believe, since the churches in every place I have ever been (including NYC, which resembles LA in certain respects) have a distinct surplus of women. That’s why I go to church, to see the hot girls. (JK!)

  84. galloper6 June 19, 2013 at 6:23 am #

    y81, Is that sarcasm, a snark or are you refering to over sixty women?

  85. Mike June 19, 2013 at 11:56 am #

    I grew up Evangelical and was pretty badly burned by a lot of girls in my church’s youth group. I was beta, and for the most part would probably still be considered one. I left Christianity for some time after one of these girls spread some awful rumors about me after I learned of her cheating (she had a lot of troubles and has since come out as lesbian/bi/whatever, so it was more than my doing). Then, I dated an atheist for two years that was absolutely wonderful and still the only amicable break-up I ever had. Pure and simple we were going in different directions and I knew we were just delaying the inevitable. So it is.

    My time as an evangelical trying to date was defined by the I Kissed Dating Good-Bye BS and even as a naive young man I called bull when I heard about it. These girls would say that God didn’t want them to date but then He magically said go ahead when a good looking guy wanted to. Of course, several of these girls ended up moving in with their Alpha boyfriends after the HS youth group left them to their own devices. I don’t judge them, but it shows just how little anyone believe in the IKDG trash.

    I’m a Catholic now and find that dating in the church is hard because of just how female-oriented American Christianity has become. It tends to be almost enitrely set up to cater 40-something women with little room for men. This is even true of a Church that still doesn’t ordain women! So, I say just try dating non-Christians at least on one date but if things move in a serious direction, make your faith and goals known. You’d be surprised at how a strong person who takes their faith seriously is counted as an asset, even if someone isn’t necessarily devout.

    Well, that’s my two-cents and experience.

  86. Elspeth June 19, 2013 at 1:54 pm #

    You’d be surprised at how a strong person who takes their faith seriously is counted as an asset, even if someone isn’t necessarily devout.

    This is very true.

  87. Aunt Haley June 19, 2013 at 7:48 pm #

    van Roo–

    Can you please name some L.A. churches with an excess of (educated, white) marriageable Christian men?

  88. The Man Who Was . . . June 19, 2013 at 8:23 pm #

    And yes: even with so many Christian men to choose from around here, the Christian women think NOTHING of dating (and worse) with non-Christian Alphas.

    You’re a sensationalist, so excuse me if I take your observations with some salt.

  89. Cicely July 3, 2013 at 4:17 pm #

    “Can you please name some L.A. churches with an excess of (educated, WHITE) marriageable Christian men?”

    Wow, you won’t even consider a man of a different race, no matter if he has all the right qualities? Fine Christian sentiment there.

    It’s funny because where I live, women have to be tan to be considered attractive, and my ethnic background makes it impossible. I don’t have the finances to be spending money on spray tans and lotions (which I think generally look horrible anyway.) I’m hoping I can marry a darker-skinned man or adopt a child so my children aren’t as pale as I am.

  90. Katherine July 21, 2013 at 11:16 am #

    Everything hinges on whether or not you’re really a Christian. Not everyone who professes is really a Christian. There is such a thing as the religious unsaved, those who occupy a pew every Sunday and attend prayer meeting during the week, contribute financially and participate in activities, teach a Sunday school class, sing in the choir, hold a lay position, etc. There’s a litany of “works” people do that make them appear Christian but who, nonetheless, are unsaved. Real salvation is a work of the Holy Spirit, something quite apart from human works. The Bible calls it being born again, and you either have that second birth, or you do not. If you’re a Christian then you know when and how you became one and can give another person your testimony. Your testimony is about what Christ did for you, not what you are doing for Him.

    Without a genuine conversion to Christ, winning the man or woman of your dreams won’t matter.

    And I’m not saying life is always pie-in-the-sky for the Christian, and he or she ultimately gets everything they want. Hardly. Even an exercised Christian can find it excrutiating to let go of a long-held and heartfelt desire. It can be very hard to say, “Not my will, but Thine be done,” and let go. I’m saying an exercised Christian will accept the Lord’s will for his or her life because they want to please the Lord instead of themselves. The unsaved generally continue to pursue what they want.

  91. van Rooinek July 22, 2013 at 9:06 am #

    van Roo– Can you please name some L.A. churches with an excess of (educated, white) marriageable Christian men?

    Even though I have a STEM education,. somehow that question comes across as snobby. If I were magically transformed into a single 18 year old in today’s job market and financial situation, I would NOT SET FOOT in college, preferring to focus on some non-exportable skilled trade. Would you date a plumber or a carpenter or a machinist who makes more than most college degreed people? If not, you’re shutting out a lot of good men.

    That said…

    I’ve been out of the dating pool for over a decade so my info is dated… but….

    The first place I’ll send you, is the Church on Brady, in East LA. However, I haven’t been there in 20 years, and since then it has completely remade itself (even changing its name). But while I was there, there were indeed quite a lot of men, including physically fit, educated white men, who couldn’t get a date to save their lives. The demographics and dynamics may have changed dramatically since I was there… but…here it is;
    http://mosaic.org/community/

    The next place I would have sent you, was the Vineyard Christian Fellowship of Malibu, aka Malibu Vineyard. The MV once had a VAST pool of highly attractive singles of both sexes, but the girls were so outrageously hypergamist that any non-snobby woman could have gotten married practically overnight… Unfortunately that church destroyed itself in a series of scandals, and no longer exists; now, if you google Malibu Vineyard, you get a winery.

    I attended several relatively small churches over the years, where nearly all the singles were lonely white men, some of them educated, but, in the years since, every one of those churches has either folded or merged with a larger church, so I can’t send you to any of those.

    I’ve heard good things about the singles pools at these 2 places but I never attended them while I myself was still single.
    http://www.cornerstonesimi.com/
    http://www.rockypeak.org/

    Finally….. what worked for me….. Get on the internet, set your radius at 30 miles…

  92. van Rooinek July 22, 2013 at 9:07 am #

    Haley, you don’t have to take that linky post out of moderation.

    It’s really only for you anyway.

  93. y81 July 22, 2013 at 3:37 pm #

    Actually, something where we haven’t gotten a clear answer from Haley (as I recall) is whether she is wedded to her denomination, or is willing to shop around, either for doctrine or for men. I hope she is willing to check out van Rooinek’s suggestions and report back. I for one will be amazed if any of these churches has a surplus of men. I would be surprised to find such a church anywhere, other than maybe at West Point or some other very special circumstance.

    I don’t think Haley would be comfortable with a man who had less learning and education than she does, so she is pretty much restricted to college-educated men.

  94. van Rooinek July 23, 2013 at 3:28 pm #

    I hope she is willing to check out van Rooinek’s suggestions and report back. I for one will be amazed if any of these churches has a surplus of men.

    Well. as I said in my post — I’ve been off the market for over a decade, and the church venues where my experiences took place, have all either folded or changed beyond recognition.

    However… yes.,…when I was single my experience (and my friends’), was that there was a vast excess of good solid Christian single MEN here in So-Cal. Depending on the church environment,
    (a) available women did not exist, at all … or
    (b) they were so hypergamist that they were undateable and thus, to marriage minded men, might as well not exist.. or
    (c) all the “available” women were divorced mothers who didn’t want any more kids, and were thus totally unacceptable partners for a never-married man who hadn’t had kids yet.. or
    (d) some combination of (b) and (c)

    In no case, in the state of California anyway, did I ever come across the much-storied situation of a vast excess of eligible, never-married Christian women. I think that’s probably a Bible belt phenomenon. When I and my friends would hear or read about the “excess” of women in church,we’d laugh — it was so utterly opposite from our own experiences.

  95. Aunt Haley July 23, 2013 at 5:52 pm #

    van Roo–

    I’m not against men without college educations, per se, but if we’re playing a numbers game, I’m just more likely to connect with someone who has a college education. It’s not just the intellectual compatibility, it’s also manners, tastes, preferences, habits, worldview, expectations, attitudes, etc. Not having a college education doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not a man could be a good husband in general.

    I’ve visited a couple of Mosaics in the past. It’s really not my thing, but maybe I’ll give ’em another shot.

  96. anna August 1, 2013 at 12:21 am #

    what age must you be because all this talk is for middle aged people what about teens/pre-teens

  97. annoyedyoungwoman August 21, 2013 at 8:03 pm #

    “They’ve been told to trust God, and fall even MORE in love with Jesus, and to stay chaste, and to look for that Strong Leader Guy, and to IKDG and not date casually, and to keep hoping and hoping and hoping and praying and praying and praying – and the clock keeps running.”

    I’ve read that if we desire a relationship, we need to be ACTIVE (whether it is ministry, a passion of ours or elsewhere) and not just sit at home. It may lead to open doors. We shouldn’t expect anything if we sit at home and do nothing. Scripture says we should seek first the Kingdom of heaven and his righteousness (I see this statement as being active in ministries–not just church related but wherever God put us). Most of my friends were (and still are) active in ministries and meet their spouse, so I think this part is true in many cases…

    Secondly, it bothers me that the first thing Christians will ask “is he a believer” and if the answer is no, then they’ll start preaching. I DESPISE it. If he is interested in me (or vice versa), they act as if it will lead to marriage. How the heck do I know because it may never lead to a date, so I’m not sure why these people are overreacting. I’m even more frustrated by the fact that they’re judging these people as if they know their heart. Yes, I know they are spiritually dead and it’s not like I don’t think about the bigger things either. I’m not hating on my brothers or sisters, but it is so annoying when they don’t do what they’re suppose to do…Call others out (“devout” or “Practicing” Christians) who are living in sin. Seriously, get your act together before you point fingers.

  98. Toffee Hammer September 12, 2013 at 4:02 am #

    If we’re willing to broaden things to “Asian or white and educated”, geez, my old church in southern California was a veritable nature preserve for eligible bachelors.

    I wasn’t single at the time, but I would have been quite unexcited about trying to meet single women there, simply due to the numbers. I keep hearing about how women are the core of church, but certainly not young, single women: the core church women seemed to be divorced/single moms who came back to God and church in their 30s.

  99. NickiOz October 3, 2013 at 9:41 pm #

    It breaks my heart to read just how judgemental so many of these comments are. Rating men and women with numbers like you are in college? My goodness! I totally agree with Haley’s thoughts on this blogpost. I have done the “right” thing according to church my whole life yet I am 43 and still single. I am the popular person with the good heart and sparkling personality that has attractive friends. The guys chat to me but go home with my friend’s number.
    I googled this topic which brought me to this page, just to see what was being said and I was glad to read Haley’s blog as I relate wholeheartedly.
    I feel sadness for those who think the “guy game” and “girl game” is what matters. It’s like trying to trap someone. My opinion is you should dress and take care of yourself for you, not change yourself from a “3” to an “8” or something like that to “get” a spouse. I’m not advocating this calibre of movie normally but the message at the end of the movie “She’s Out of my League” is a good one.

  100. galloper6 October 4, 2013 at 11:15 am #

    Nikki, numbers and market rules are used because they are a good predictor of human behavior Businesses use them because prediction of large numbers of sales make or break a business. I grew up being told all the “right” ways to find amd impress a mate and grew old alone. The right way does not match the reality inside or outside of church.

  101. NickiOz October 4, 2013 at 12:18 pm #

    I agree. I have done the “right” thing and have ended up 43 and alone. I still say, though, that I disagree with judging people as a “3” or an “8” which I see as a secular idea which discounts someone’s personality and focuses on looks.

  102. Guy Incognito October 19, 2013 at 4:19 pm #

    Late to the party, but surely everyone’s seen the maps indicating the surplus of single men in CA and the surplus of single women in NY and DC, right? Still holds when restricted to the church, afaict.

  103. For real? October 20, 2013 at 1:04 am #

    there’s a surplus of single men in california??

  104. Hannah November 7, 2013 at 4:41 am #

    Omg! This is exactly where I am at. I am a 31 year old female who has a college degree and earning good money with a great career. I grew up in church, Sunday school, youth groups and young adults groups as well as working in church! Yes my friends married before they reached 25 ( but they are not so educated and settled early). I met heaps of guys during my 20s but only a few tool my fancy: good looking, active in church, good bible knowledge, leaders and very ‘Spiritual’ guys but they just did not have the personality and maturity I was looking for. I couldn’t settle for nice guys who I had no attraction for (too religious and boring). But I found someone I really liked who was from work and an unbeliever but the personality I was looking for that suited me perfectly.

    I gave him up in the end (due to the loud disapproval from everyone I knew). Now I am just waiting. I don’t believe there is some ideal Christian guy who ticks all the boxes everyone tells you he needs to tick. Even when there is, he’s what everyone else wants for you. Not what you want! There are hardly any singles around anymore. It was already hard to find someone remotely attractive among the church circles.

    Not sure what I am waiting around for anymore. I think we need go follow your hearts. Not ‘churchianity’. Otherwise you’re no different than a cult member who is brainwashed by others instead of being accountable to God.

  105. Elspeth November 7, 2013 at 6:44 am #

    @ Hannah:

    You have a choice: Settle or remain single.

  106. galloper6 November 7, 2013 at 11:41 am #

    The problem is not just that people want the wrong things, but they want contradictory things. For example, financial security seldom comes with youth. The same with “spiritual maturity”.

  107. Hana November 7, 2013 at 12:43 pm #

    Second: I understand both your points, and they have value in the sense that hot women aren’t getting phone numbers thrown at them at the grocery store. However, you have to account for context, which dictates daytime flirting is going to be much lower key. As a dude, if you’ve initiated ANY kind of social contact with a woman, that’s an approach.

    I wonder if you are considering an “approach” to be a semi-formalized “hey how are you, my name is , insert flirt here, we should go out on a date.” That is only going to happen regularly at a meat market eveningtime joint. What is going to happen in daytime is a dude smiles at her at the coffee joint, says “that was a tough workout” at the yoga studio, asks her to pick out bananas in the produce section, and so on, and if they strike up a conversation, they might get a “meetup” lined up later.

    I just saw this…okay, so these are approaches, but I still don’t think the men who are approaching 6’s are 9’s (see Van Rooniek’s comment). I think it is an exaggeration to say that average-looking women are regularly getting approached by alpha males. Ask the average woman if she ever gets approached by guys while doing grocery shopping or going to the bank, and maybe the answer will be yes, but usually they’ll add, “he was kind of creepy,” or “he was old.”

    Actually, you clarified that by saying “hot women aren’t getting phone numbers thrown at them.” If hot women aren’t, then 6’s definitely aren’t.

  108. Hana November 7, 2013 at 12:45 pm #

    (Sorry, reposted this last part because it’s not a quote): These are approaches, but I still don’t think the men who are approaching 6′s are 9′s (see Van Rooniek’s comment). I think it is an exaggeration to say that average-looking women are regularly getting approached by alpha males. Ask the average woman if she ever gets approached by guys while doing grocery shopping or going to the bank, and maybe the answer will be yes, but usually they’ll add, “he was kind of creepy,” or “he was old.”

    Actually, you clarified that by saying “hot women aren’t getting phone numbers thrown at them.” If hot women aren’t, then 6′s definitely aren’t.

  109. Kate Moffatt February 18, 2014 at 12:05 am #

    I came here to look for advice but no one has hardly mentioned God/Jesus! It’s all talk about “game” and what score women are out of 10! Shame on us all.

  110. galloper6 February 18, 2014 at 1:18 pm #

    Kate, this is not a forum for Theological debate. We aresorting through the nuts and bolts of a real world problem, trying to find real world solutions for for social failers that are harming Christians across denominational boundies. The culture of “Churchanity is failing the people by teaching practices that do not work in the real world. These policies are not as biblical as people tend to think.

  111. NickiOz February 18, 2014 at 1:52 pm #

    We’ll said, Galloper. I agree.

  112. galloper6 February 18, 2014 at 2:05 pm #

    How many Biblical heroes were beta boy wussies?

  113. clarencelumpyrutherford November 14, 2014 at 6:00 pm #

    @Hannah, your comments bothered me somewhat:

    “….I couldn’t settle for nice guys who I had no attraction for (too religious and boring). But I found someone I really liked who was from work and an unbeliever but the personality I was looking for that suited me perfectly….”

    TOO RELIGIOUS????
    You yourself said you WORKED in church and did all the activities.

    Pray tell, what was your issue with them?

    You do know it’s unwise to be unequally yoked?
    Read some of the posts at Christianforums.com in the unequally yoked sub-forum where women who lapsed their faith & got sexually involved with their nonChristian boyfriends and later married them.

    Read how the man they married refuses to go to church with them. Some won’t even allow the women to take their children to church.

    See their tears, their remorse and deep regret for “passing over” the good “too religious” men in their midsts and going for piece of sh^ts pagans they married.

    .

  114. Chad December 6, 2014 at 8:44 pm #

    My friend who is not a Christian set me up with his girlfriend’s friend who also isn’t a Christian. I have never seriously dated anyone before and I am 20 years old. Any advice on what I should do would be great!

  115. galloper6 December 7, 2014 at 6:49 am #

    Chad let her know up front your beliefs and level of religious observance. You dont have to be an arrogant jerk about it. Remember women are repulsed not by a belief but by men being shamed or insecure about it. People in general are drawn to serious confident beliefs. Holiness and wuzyness are not the same thing.
    Notice these airhead western girls going to join ISIS. It is the swaggering confidence that attacks them, not a theology. Women dont follow causes that dont believe in themselves.

  116. galloper6 December 7, 2014 at 6:51 am #

    er…. attracts them

  117. trugingstar December 7, 2014 at 8:52 am #

    “It is the swaggering confidence that attacks them, not a theology. Women dont follow causes that dont believe in themselves.” -tru

    Chad: it’s not the end of the world if you go on a date with her. I promise. Just don’t take her out to anything nice or anywhere dark.

  118. trugingstar December 7, 2014 at 8:53 am #

    galloper: In the case of Isis, attacks them. ;)

  119. Lucy October 17, 2015 at 7:17 am #

    I have been a christian since i was a teen and now im 23. I have dated two non christians, both ended in tears and breakups. And each time i dated them, i felt myself distancing myself from God. After the last breakup, i came back to church after two years of being an atheist and now i can say i am in a commited relationship with God. I no longer desperately seek a partner because im afraid of being lonely or needed validation that i had ‘game’. I know i am a beautiful creation of God and He is my Father who can only want the best man out there for me. Why would i want to settle for someone less than what He wants for my life? Even if i end up single for life it doesnt bother me. I am complete now with Jesus and want nothing else. If a wonderful man of Godcomes by, and if it is Gods will, then great. But I think if you have experienced His grace, you should not doubt He has planned great things for you so do not worry!

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