Why women are afraid to pump up men’s egos.

2 Jun

The privateman, in his most recent blog entry, wrote,

“It’s remarkable but I wonder how many women resist or completely reject such advice [to make a man feel good] because of feminist, ideological grounds (“it’s wrong to make a man feel good”)  or their own sense of fabulousness causes them to stick their heads in the sand.”

The answer is:  a lot.

The reason that women resist and reject advice to flatter men is basically an issue of power.  You wouldn’t know it from reading manosphere sites, but men, especially if white and educated, get the majority of perks in the world.  They get the best jobs.  They occupy the top of pretty much every occupational field, fields of women’s interests included (fashion, beauty, cooking, media).  They make the most money.  They’re more implicitly trusted in matters of business.  They get to have sex with tons of people and receive very little judgment for it.  They get to marry women young enough to be their daughters and have kids at age 70.  They get to be funny, outrageous, outspoken, and wild, and people just chuckle affectionately.  (Women who are funny, outrageous, outspoken, and wild, on the other hand,  just get called bitches, sluts, and bulldykes.)  They get to do most of the exciting and interesting things in this world, and they tend to think they know everything about everything.  And generally they don’t pay much of a social price for getting fat and dressing dumpy.

Meanwhile, women are expected to be quiet and have babies, always be up for sex, never gain any weight, and never have an opinion that contradicts a man’s.

Given these circumstances, it’s pretty easy to see why a modern woman balks at making a man feel good about himself.  In her mind, he already has the world’s oyster in his palm.  Giving him MORE sex, MORE compliments, and MORE deference is only going to inflate his ego even more than it already is and make him feel even more entitled to the things society has already given him.  And what, exactly, has this man done to earn any of these things other than be born with a penis?  Furthermore, if a woman flatters a man’s ego, he will just take her for granted and feel he has the ability to make unqualified demands as well as the right not to be of any help to the woman.  Women can’t see how treating a man well (i.e., like a ’50s homemaker) for no reason other than that he is a man can result in anything good for themselves.

Additionally, every woman either has a friend or knows somebody who got a boyfriend and then turned into a Stepford wife who has to get permission just to go to the mall, and while she’s there, her boyfriend will be constantly checking in on her and demanding to know all the details of what she’s doing.  And the friend will insist that he’s just doing this because he loves her.  No sane woman wants this to happen to her or be seen as weak and controllable, so that’s another reason that women tend to be resistant to giving men what they want.

Some of this attitude stems from hypergamy.  Women all want the best men for themselves, but women know that those men have options and in many cases have no compunction about straying.  A woman could treat such a man as a king, and she still runs the risk of his cheating.  So in a defensive measure, the woman will do what she thinks will earn her greater respect and shore up her power, which is to deny the man what he wants or thinks he is entitled to.  Then the man won’t feel quite so secure about walking all over her, because now he knows there is a price to pay.

Another reason is the American culture of meritocracy, where we take pride in earning things for ourselves and much American lore is centered around people who Did It Themselves, as opposed to getting something because of who your dad was.  This attitude extends to mating, as well.  It’s hard for women to be taught that everything they know about how the world works apparently doesn’t work in romantic male/female relationships, and it’s not like any major media is out there promoting this, anyway.  (It IS kind of ironic, though, that men who will rail against the evils of affirmative action will be happy to receive affirmative action praise from a woman.)

I can hear the cries rising up from the peanut gallery already, so let me be clear that YES, a lot of this modern female attitude is a response to alpha males and WAH WAH WAH MOST MEN ARE BETAS DOOMED TO LONELY SEXLESS LIVES WHILE ALPHAS HAVE ALL THE FUN WAHHHHH MARRIAGE 2.0 CAROUSEL NO GOOD WOMEN LEFT ON THE ENTIRE PLANET EXCEPT IN THAILAND WAHHHHHH.  But at the same time, women instinctively don’t want to dish out praise and coddling to men they don’t respect.  Sorry, Pushover Pete.**  And sorry, Slob Sam.  A lot of times women see men as overgrown children who seem barely able to take care of themselves.  They live in sties.  They think the Value Menu is cooking.  They would rather turn their underwear inside out than do laundry.  And women think to themselves, “I’m working a full-time job and still living respectably, but I’m supposed to tell this guy how wonderful he is and bring him his slippers?!?”  (Boundless:  “MAN UP!”)  It’s the “people like to help people who can help themselves” meritocratic thinking at work.

So what is the solution?  It’s not castigating women and screeching that everything is their fault.  (See:  Garden of Eden.)  Explanations of the differences between what motivates men and what motivates women are all fine and good, but you can’t undo generations of dogma raised to a level of canonical faith to go bye-bye with a few sarcastic zingers and alpha posturing.  Demonstrating praiseworthy characteristics is the best way to go, especially if done with confidence and good humor.  Greatness is irresistible, so show some greatness and the admiration will come forth naturally.  (If it doesn’t, you might be swimming in a poisoned pond.  Best to look for fresh water in that case.)

**My brother once told me that when a woman tells you you’re the best at something, you’re walking on air for a week.  I goggled at him like he’d just said that 2+2=5 and asked him, “But what if the woman is lying?”  He said that it didn’t matter.  But inside I was repulsed at the idea that a man would so gladly accept unearned praise and that a woman would stoop to giving it just to get her way.

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242 Responses to “Why women are afraid to pump up men’s egos.”

  1. theprivateman June 2, 2011 at 8:30 am #

    “The reason that women resist and reject advice to flatter men is basically an issue of power.”

    I appreciate the link and the discussion. I won’t talk about the socio-political issues you raise about white men, it all smacks of feminist ideology and my blog doesn’t really delve into such issues. Other Manosphere bloggers will certainly chime in.

    I will, however, talk about the quote above.

    Relationships should not be about power. This is the precise attitude that has poisoned the relationship waters. It is a wretched dogmatic attitude that needs to be expunged from our collective mindset.

    How healthy can it be when women have such utter disrespect (if not outright hatred) for men in the context of good, intimate relationships?

    It’s small wonder that we’re creating a generation of men who simply have the view that a woman is a life support system for her sexual body parts. It’s a natural reaction to the stubborn refusal of taking men’s needs and wants seriously. Dark Game is also the result.

    Men will certainly develop better character once they are rewarded for it. Sadly, the prevailing cultural attitude is that men shouldn’t get anything because, well, they are men. Encourage and REWARD greatness and it will come. Right now, there are few incentives.

  2. Badger June 2, 2011 at 8:44 am #

    Two words: apex fallacy.

  3. detinennui32 June 2, 2011 at 9:18 am #

    Haley makes two points: 1. Men, especially white men, are the power structure, have most of the money and power, and therefore shouldn’t expect more from women.
    2. Men should expect recognition only for being “great”.

    My response:

    1. Men usually can accumulate those things in the modern business or work world by incorporating beta traits (industriousness, hard work, empathy, ability to get along with many different types of people). We were told that’s what you wanted. That’s why we hope for the building up from you.

    2. We did these things to become great. But the admiration did not come. Women don’t want beta men. We’ve found out that women get bored with and aren’t attracted to those men. So we are those things because our parents told us that if we did them, we’d meet and marry and be happy. But many of us did them, and women don’t want us precisely BECAUSE we are those things.

    SO which is it? Women say they want great men who provide for them, marry them and put up with their foibles, and they call us beta chumps and cheat on us. Then they say they want alpha men, and complain that they are rude, noncommittal and self-centered.

  4. detinennui32 June 2, 2011 at 9:42 am #

    I think Aunt Haley is channeling Kay Hymowitz.

  5. Martini June 2, 2011 at 9:54 am #

    Just a thought I’d like to put out there: Some people (me) don’t particularly enjoy praise, compliments, and in my case, even gifts. We just don’t see the need or in some cases, have learned the hard way that praise today can turn into damnation the next! Therefore, we tend to think others feel the same way and of course, they don’t.

    I’ve learned to play the compliment game a bit, with age.
    Thankfully, my spouse is somewhat like myself in this way, but he’s not immune either to this need (disease?). It was an actual surprise to me to discover that men seen to have more fragile egos than women; they suppress their emotions so well, we tend to believe them (at least I do or did, rather).

    “How healthy can it be when women have such utter disrespect (if not outright hatred) for men in the context of good, intimate relationships?”

    That’s a huge clue right there: you do not have a good, intimate relationship and you should not be with any woman, even casually, who has utter disrespect for you.

    Very good post, Haley; this expresses the situation well (there, I’m giving praise)!

  6. Joseph Dantes June 2, 2011 at 10:20 am #

    What a stupid paean against the power of appreciation.

    A Southern man don’t need ya’ll around, anyhow.

  7. Country Lawyer June 2, 2011 at 10:59 am #

    Run, Hamster, Run!

    This argument seems to be:

    1) Life isn’t fair.
    2) Don’t expect me to be nice to the guys that get all the perks (the alphas) even though as described above these men get all the social aprobation anyway and get fawned over.
    3) The rest of you men that are beta, you suck and get what you deserve.

    Jesus did say: “What you do to the least among you, you do to me.”

    It is said you will know a christain by how they act and how people treat the people “beneath” them is the biggest tell.

    The private man is incorrect. ALL relationships are about power.

  8. detinennui32 June 2, 2011 at 11:09 am #

    Aunt Haley:

    “You wouldn’t know it from reading manosphere sites, but men, especially if white and educated, get the majority of perks in the world. They get the best jobs. They occupy the top of pretty much every occupational field, fields of women’s interests included (fashion, beauty, cooking, media). They make the most money. They’re more implicitly trusted in matters of business. They get to have sex with tons of people and receive very little judgment for it. They get to marry women young enough to be their daughters and have kids at age 70. They get to be funny, outrageous, outspoken, and wild, and people just chuckle affectionately.”

    That describes alpha men, who comprise less than 1 to 3 percent of men in North America. Betas comprise 80% of American men.

    I’m a man. I’m white, and I’m educated. I have a good job and high earning power. I have no arrest or criminal record. I came from a good family and both my parents hold college degrees. In college I kept my head down, worked hard, earned good grades, and paid my own way. I was in many extracurricular activities.

    I’m a brick in the foundation of that power structure Aunt Haley’s describing. If you follow Haley’s logic, I’m a super alpha, and I should have been fighting off women with a stick since age 18.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. For years, I could not get women even to look at or talk to me, much less hop in bed with me.

    I spent all but the last three months of my life hovering between beta and omega. When I acted funny, outrageous, outspoken or wild, I was routinely viewed as creepy, weird or an arrogant ass. I did not get to have sex with tons of women. By today’s standards, my lifetime partner count is quite modest. When I did sleep with women as a younger man and acted like a cad, I was harshly judged for it. I was told I was not being “nice” and that I’d never get a woman unless I was “nice”.

    So I tried being “nice”. I got even less power and authority, and fewer perks. Most women wouldn’t even give me the time of day long enough to say LJBF. In return for my “nice” behavior, I was more miserable, more alone, and more confused and frustrated.

    We can’t win. If we’re nice betas, we’re unkempt, wimpy losers who aren’t worthy of any woman’s kindness or respect, much less affection. If we incorporate alpha traits, we’re insensitive cads who only want to oppress, use and cheat everyone around us.

  9. ASDF June 2, 2011 at 11:14 am #

    And what, exactly, has this man done to earn any of these things other than be born with a penis?

    Blank slatist much?

    (White) men dominate all of these fields because they are simply better at them.

  10. detinennui32 June 2, 2011 at 11:27 am #

    BTW: BY “Nice” I mean the typical beta behaviors:
    –Constant deference to women.
    –Accepting everything a woman said at face value (e.g. that “LJBF” really meant she wanted to be my friend; and that “I just want a nice guy who treats me right” meant that if I were nice and treated her right, she would like me and want a relationship with me).
    –Pedestalizing all women.
    –Believing all women are pure and innocent all the time.
    –Believing that no woman ever operates with an ulterior motive.
    –White knighting.
    –Orbiting.
    –Being a woman’s best boy buddy.
    –Discrediting the principle of female hypergamy.
    –Incurable oneitis.

    Being “nice” got me nowhere. I have to believe I’m not the only guy who figured this out late.

  11. Peanut Gallery June 2, 2011 at 11:32 am #

    Really? Can we talk about the female ego for a moment? Between the two (or whatever) genders which of the two has been raised to expect the other to purchase things for them, Often within mere moments of meeting them? that they shouldn’t have to shell out a dime for any encounter? (or at the very least not for the first few, anyway) Which of the two has been told that they are **entitled** to assistance from the other with any menial task, especially if that task involves heavy lifting or tools.

    Which of the two (if they were born within the last three decades or so) has been raised with the notion that they are entitled to be treated like royalty? Which of them has absorbed messages that stop just short of outright deification (“reveal the Goddess in YOU”)

    Fact is: It’s women who have the ego problem. Women are the ones who are constantly fishing for compliments, who can’t handle rejection (seriously, turn a woman down for sex once and watch how fast she jumps to “What’s the matter, don’t you find me attractive anymore? Are you GAY??”)

    And if you want to talk about “manchildren” let us also spoeak of the many, many women who expect to be taken care of by their men. It needn’t even be a husband either, a boyfriend (or hell, an acquaintance if he’s delusional and beta enough) can just as easily become an ATM with a pulse.

    Frankly, most guys I know today don’t expect a woman to know how to cook, in fact (and granted this might just be the crowd I roll with) far more guys are better cooks than the women… however, I know of no women who do not (possibly subconsciously) expect the men in their lives to be able to fix an automotive problem, a stopped up sink, hang a shelf, or help with moving furniture.

  12. detinennui32 June 2, 2011 at 11:36 am #

    What a disappointment to see this post on this site.

  13. The Man Who Was . . . June 2, 2011 at 11:43 am #

    On a general note, there is no such thing as male privilige; there is only alpha male privilige.

    And, well, female hypergamy pretty much is at fault for everything that has gone wrong in the dating and marriage market. Women’s aversion to settling for those on their own level is the problem.

    As for women giving compliments and such though, I have to agree that I don’t really care.

  14. y81 June 2, 2011 at 12:38 pm #

    detinennue32 makes an interesting point in his first post above. Women (including, evidently, Haley) tend to want men who are “bad boys” (i.e., rebellious, disobedient, aloof, etc.) and who are successful (i.e., rich, powerful etc.) Unfortunately, in a modern capitalist economy, these traits generally don’t go together. (E.g., David Petraeus and Jamie Dimon aren’t bad boys, and the “take this job and shove it” guys don’t have high-paying jobs.)

    In bodice rippers, you’ll note, the hero is usually a pirate [bad boy] captain [successful], or a decadent [bad boy] aristocrat [successful], or some such. But in real life, you have to take one or the other. (Although a lot of manosphere denizens seem to be neither, which is pathetic.)

  15. Volume June 2, 2011 at 12:50 pm #

    “What a disappointment to see this post on this site.”

    Nahh, it’s OK.
    I won’t bother again.
    Afterall, I didn’t type in

    Feministing.com

    ..and lay-off white men for God’s sake. I’m Black and it’s getting EXTREMELY annoying. They’re catching the same heat Black men and myself are in their community.

    Ya’ll ALL stink.

  16. (R)Evolutionary June 2, 2011 at 12:56 pm #

    Your brother is living for validation by women. Or just other people in general. This is an external locus of control, a very disempowering state of living.

    I fell into the same trap long ago, and finally got the hell over it after a spiritual crisis caused by a breakup.

  17. modernguy June 2, 2011 at 1:17 pm #

    Which one are you y81? The pirate or the head of J.P. Morgan? Give us a break.

    Haley you have some reasonable objections. The bar is set pretty low for the average guy, what with his enormous beer gut and dirty track pants, and NASCAR. Or at least that seems to be what you think is the average guy. And they certainly don’t deserve any mercy. Neither do socially oblivious nerds. Or really, anyone who aspires to adopt a retarded stereotype in replacement for an authentic personality.

    But women also tend to set the bar too high in their imagination. In real life instead of holding out for the pirate who is also head of J.P. Morgan, or another facsimile for the 463 bullet point check list, they usually settle for the more or less average guy who has a bit of charm or spark that makes him stand out.

    Unfortunately they don’t stick with that guy, which is the real problem. There is no point for a man to live up to the image of a man that women have when he can’t trust and depend on his wife. If women are going to play musical chairs with guys as the chairs, men are going to do the minimum necessary to get laid, or drop out and do nothing at all. There is no reason to work hard if you’re doing it for a slut.

    No thinking man would deign to bite at the notion that women have any kind of real sociopolitical awareness or the absolutely laughable, hilarious, absurd claim that it would inform women’s behavior as regards men. But if you really think white guys have it easy in this day in age, next time you go in to work try to observe the white guys chained to their cubicles or licking their bosses nuts all day for fear of losing their job. Do you think they like doing that? There are very few options short of criminal activity where a man can keep his self-respect. The ruling classes have stripped and gutted America, but people still have to survive. And what, may we ask, are you doing that’s so fabulous?

  18. jack June 2, 2011 at 1:23 pm #

    I concur. Apex fallacy.

    Because the current group of privileged individuals in our society happen to be white males, Haley thinks that all white males enjoy these privileges.

    In one post, she has ruined a lot of the credibility she has earned to date.

  19. modernguy June 2, 2011 at 1:26 pm #

    By the way, a bulletproof refutation of the ‘average white guys have all the privileges’ fallacy has already been made, in fact made 12 years ago. It’s called “Office Space”.

  20. Will S. June 2, 2011 at 1:47 pm #

    What all the above have said. Apex fallacy, combined with, when actually noticing the ones below, seeing them all as belching, butt-crack-showing waddlers, worthy only of your contempt. And it’s women who have the ego problem, not men.

    Now I see why your blog is entitled ‘Haley’s Halo’, because you think of yourself as an angel / princess, after all.

  21. modernguy June 2, 2011 at 2:52 pm #

    “Women all want the best men for themselves, but women know that those men have options and in many cases have no compunction about straying. A woman could treat such a man as a king, and she still runs the risk of his cheating. So in a defensive measure, the woman will do what she thinks will earn her greater respect and shore up her power, which is to deny the man what he wants or thinks he is entitled to. Then the man won’t feel quite so secure about walking all over her, because now he knows there is a price to pay.”

    Lol. Among all the chaff at least you gave us the real reason. And as always, the mistake stems from insecurity. You want the guy with options but you want him to stick to your unique little special self and oh-please-don’t-leave-and-hurt-my-feelings! Behind the whole game, when you pull back the curtain you find that women have an intuitive sense that they’re not really all that special or unique and that looks is what gets them by with men. So instead of playing the game (which of course they expect and demand of men to do, often for their amusement) you preemptively self-sabotage. There is no man in the world who is going to be fooled into thinking that you’re worth more because you’re playing hard to get. Men know what you’re worth by looking at you, and as the saying goes, show me beautiful woman and I’ll show you a man who’s tired of banging her, so even that is not a guarantee of anything. Women want the alpha to be in love with them forever-and-ever-and-ever, while the beta who really is has to watch from the sidelines. If I indulged fantasies of being the ultimate man for Monica Bellucci I might have some sympathy, but at some point you just have to come back down to Earth.

  22. Anonymous Reader June 2, 2011 at 2:53 pm #

    Apex fallacy plus a heapin’ helpin’ of good, old fashioned feminist shaming language. This posting should be read while wearing bell-bottomed pants, with a disco ball spinning overhead, while listening to the BeeGees.

    I found my way here via a link. Since Haley seems to be posting via a time machine from somewhere before 1980, and my DeLoreon is in the shop, I’ll just be moving on somewhere else more relevant to the real world that I actually live in.

  23. Tim June 2, 2011 at 3:06 pm #

    I can kind of understand where Haley is coming from. I’m from Vancouver, and the TV displayed all those Canucks fans cheering in the streets last night; all the dudes had on Canucks Jerseys. It’s as if the ordinary AFC really believes he is Robert Luongo, just because he has a team jersey on. I think what Haley is saying is all men are guilty by association. We ‘think’ we are alpha, and act as if we are alpha, when we really are just perpetrating. Or maybe Haley thinks we get the privilege of drinking from the hose that the Alpha male turns on. So let’s be clear: Haley is operating via her hamster today. She knows the average male salary today in the USA is $38,000/year USD. That’s pretty privileged, eh Haley! LOL. Yep, I sure am one big swinging dick with that annual income!

    Haley…cupcake…sweetheart…get a hold of your hamster, babe.

  24. Tim June 2, 2011 at 3:25 pm #

    Roissy Maxim #14:

    Female cultural equality = male dating inequality. Female cultural inequality = male dating equality. Human nature says that you can‘t have it both ways.

    Your error, Haley, is that you believe feminism is positive sum; it is not. It is a zero sum game with the goal of female self-aggrandizement. If you want and crave the alpha male, you must be prepared to sacrifice feminism. If you insist upon feminism, you will only get beta love in your life.

    Deal, bitch.

  25. Langobard June 2, 2011 at 3:38 pm #

    Wow – this is one unusually bitter article by the usually fair-n-balanced Haley.

  26. Langobard June 2, 2011 at 3:41 pm #

    I can hear the cries rising up from the peanut gallery already, so let me be clear that YES, a lot of this modern female attitude is a response to alpha males and WAH WAH WAH MOST MEN ARE BETAS DOOMED TO LONELY SEXLESS LIVES WHILE ALPHAS HAVE ALL THE FUN WAHHHHH MARRIAGE 2.0 CAROUSEL NO GOOD WOMEN LEFT ON THE ENTIRE PLANET EXCEPT IN THAILAND WAHHHHHH. But at the same time, women instinctively don’t want to dish out praise and coddling to men they don’t respect. Sorry, Pushover Pete.** And sorry, Slob Sam. A lot of times women see men as overgrown children who seem barely able to take care of themselves. …

    So are a lot of women:

    Bird’s Eye View: Regrets Of An Old Feminist Hag…

    … I hate the world for teaching me those lessons. I remember complaining about how my husband never grew up. But as the tears streamed down my face, I came to the conclusion that I had never grown up. I never learned about compromise, trust, tolerance, niceness. I was a bitch, pure and simple. I know now that being a bitch is not about strength or independence. Being a bitch is about being repellent, unpleasant, unhappy, and lonely. Being a bitch is nothing more than being a spoiled princess who is too selfish or stupid to accept the joy in life.

    I had become a fat, unpleasant, middle-aged princess because I had refused to grow up. Sure, I had taken on grown-up responsibilities (marriage, career, house, motherhood) but at the core of my psyche was a 13-year-old girl who stamped her feet and whined when she didn’t get her way. Of course, I had stopped whining years ago but I simply replaced the whining with emotional manipulation and ornery bitchiness. No wonder I was still single and my two teenaged sons spent all their free time with their father. …

    http://byrdeye.blogspot.com/2008/03/regrets-of-old-feminist-hag.html

  27. Bohemian Rockstar June 2, 2011 at 3:48 pm #

    There is a simple rule in life, and you cannot escape it.

    To the victors go the spoils and they get to wright history.

    If you take the risks, you get the benefits.

    Men find the power in themselves to conquer worlds and create opportunities whilst women complain that they have to give a compliment and work out what type of muffin to eat.

    If you want the benefits, create a civilization, not just complain and try and get secondary power.

    And, giving a compliment is a sign of power from the powerful, from someone who is confident and has abundant energy. Women who don’t, are weak, insecure and blamers.

    Deep down, women know that if society was built by them, we would all be living in grass huts with a great shoe collection.

    This post is just a winge by a powerless, selfish person.

  28. Julie June 2, 2011 at 4:11 pm #

    I can’t relate to this–I enjoy showing men respect and giving them compliments.

  29. OffTheCuff June 2, 2011 at 5:31 pm #

    Being nice to your man is not the same as pumping up his ego.

    Privateman’s words: loved/good/sexy/trusted.
    Haley’s false equivalences: flatter/pump egos/coddling/praise.

    Oh, and to pile on: apex fallacy spill on aisle three.

  30. Volume June 2, 2011 at 5:46 pm #

    Alright, that’s 3-4 times now. I’m going to deh Google. Hold my drink.,

  31. Volume June 2, 2011 at 5:47 pm #

    Alright, that’s 3-4 “apex fallacy” now. I’m going to deh Google. Hold my drink.,

  32. Badger June 2, 2011 at 5:51 pm #

    Volume,

    Ask and ye shall receive:

    http://elusivewapiti.blogspot.com/2010/07/never-satisfied.html

    “Feminist women, which encompasses, oh, say, about 80% of the female population I reckon, wanted to be as loose and as seemingly carefree as the alpha men they idealized. Problem was that those alphas constituted about 10% of the male population, yet they projected the behavior and power and autonomy of alpha males onto the whole of the male population and concluded that Men Had It Better because a certain few of them were sexy, powerful, in charge, and made their bosoms heave. Seems these women had never heard of the apex fallacy.”

  33. Brendan June 2, 2011 at 6:02 pm #

    EW described it well. In essence it is the tendency of women to pay a lot more attention to the behaviors of men they find attractive (i.e., alphas) and then make a pair of generalizations based on that, which rather humorously happen to contradict one another, to wit: (1) all men are powerful, have all the sexual power, and run the world and (2) men who are not alpha males are losers who are below me and are slobs, manchildren and the like. The contradiction is not felt to be one by women, because the only men that matter to women are alpha males — other men are simply a lower caste worthy of scorn and derision.

    Of course, NAWALT, as there are many women married to non-alpha males. But feminist women, in particular, tend to alpha fixate to beat the band.

  34. Badger June 2, 2011 at 6:06 pm #

    “But feminist women, in particular, tend to alpha fixate to beat the band.”

    I am really coming to believe the assessment of feminism as the world’s biggest collective shit test – a massive weeding-out process of inferior men by asking them for social favors on a societal scale.

  35. Brendan June 2, 2011 at 6:20 pm #

    I am really coming to believe the assessment of feminism as the world’s biggest collective shit test – a massive weeding-out process of inferior men by asking them for social favors on a societal scale.

    Except that the guys who granted these freedoms were the alpha males in power. Other guys went along, sure, but the male elites, alphas all, were leading the way.

    I tend to think that this was not a shit test or a conspiracy but a movement powered by women who were frustrated with perceived limitations on themselves, who then found a way to parley this frustration into a social movement by including issues that would “benefit” all women. Even at the time a few feminist voices pointed out that the movement was largely operating in the interests of privileged white women (and it more or less is still today, in terms of the things it tends to obsess about), but those voices were quieted down and the movement was able to garner substantial support among women because it gave them tangible sexual freedom.

    It’s always been about that, really. All of the business about access to education and jobs and careers and independence and so on is to relieve women of the fate of being “stuck with” marriage to an unattractive man — it’s all about maximizing their sexual utility, in the end. This is also the reason why feminism’s promise of sex equality was basically dropped in practice (although theoretical lip service is still paid to it): things that would make things more equal but would not benefit women would not be supported by most rank and file non-ideological women, so feminism quietly dropped these, and focused instead on simply advancing women, and worrying about equality at some mythical future date. The result is what we see today.

  36. Brendan June 2, 2011 at 6:21 pm #

    Corrected for formatting. I hate it when I forget to close tags.

    I am really coming to believe the assessment of feminism as the world’s biggest collective shit test – a massive weeding-out process of inferior men by asking them for social favors on a societal scale.

    Except that the guys who granted these freedoms were the alpha males in power. Other guys went along, sure, but the male elites, alphas all, were leading the way.

    I tend to think that this was not a shit test or a conspiracy but a movement powered by women who were frustrated with perceived limitations on themselves, who then found a way to parley this frustration into a social movement by including issues that would “benefit” all women. Even at the time a few feminist voices pointed out that the movement was largely operating in the interests of privileged white women (and it more or less is still today, in terms of the things it tends to obsess about), but those voices were quieted down and the movement was able to garner substantial support among women because it gave them tangible sexual freedom.

    It’s always been about that, really. All of the business about access to education and jobs and careers and independence and so on is to relieve women of the fate of being “stuck with” marriage to an unattractive man — it’s all about maximizing their sexual utility, in the end. This is also the reason why feminism’s promise of sex equality was basically dropped in practice (although theoretical lip service is still paid to it): things that would make things more equal but would not benefit women would not be supported by most rank and file non-ideological women, so feminism quietly dropped these, and focused instead on simply advancing women, and worrying about equality at some mythical future date. The result is what we see today.

  37. Tim June 2, 2011 at 7:04 pm #

    This post by Haley only confirms and cements the conclusions Devlin reached in his essay, ‘Sexual utopia in Power’. Hypergamy implies the rejection of most
    males. Modesty is rejected by women and in its place the institutionalization of vanity becomes legitimate. Here we can see with clarity the distinction between hypergamy and monogamy: Hypergamy is an irrational instinct; monogamy is not.

    Those aspects of life which Haley pillories with gusto – men who simply turn their underwear inside out as opposed to changing into a new pair each day – imply a disgust of family life. After all, children shit themselves. Diapers need to be changed. Carpets need to be vacuumed. And so on and so forth. Unless one is a princess, this is one’s role in life, whether we like it or not. The mundane, day to day existence brings forth rancor and disgust.

    Another error of Haley’s is her assertion of the double standard, which stipulates that males get all the privileges, are allowed to have affairs, and so forth. But let us ignore that for the moment and consider the premise of her argument, the double standard. Like most influential falsehoods, it involves a distortion, rather than a mere negation, of an important truth. It is plausible, and hence dangerous, because it resembles that truth. The truth: men have never been encouraged to go about seeking casual sex with multiple women. Prior to the sexual revolution, promiscuous men were regarded as dissolute, dangerous, and dishonorable.

    So good luck to you, Haley. God bless. I really mean that.

  38. Martini June 2, 2011 at 7:32 pm #

    “Those aspects of life which Haley pillories with gusto – men who simply turn their underwear inside out as opposed to changing into a new pair each day – imply a disgust of family life.”

    I don’t understand the connection here. Love me, love my filthy undies? The family that stinks together, stays together?

    “The truth: men have never been encouraged to go about seeking casual sex with multiple women.”

    A gazillion PUA/men’s dating websites says you’re wrong. And for earlier generations, the phrase “sow your wild oats” was never meant to encourage the young women to do the same; au contraire!

  39. Tim June 2, 2011 at 8:00 pm #

    I don’t understand the connection here. Love me, love my filthy undies? The family that stinks together, stays together?

    The purpose was to reveal Haley’s distinction between alpha and beta: the alpha is a demigod; the beta shits his pants. There is nothing in between, and all women have tastes similar to Oscar Wilde’s – they are always satisfied with the best. The only problem is the best represent 10% of the male population. The other 90% don’t change their underwear.

    A gazillion PUA/men’s dating websites says you’re wrong. And for earlier generations, the phrase “sow your wild oats” was never meant to encourage the young women to do the same; au contraire!

    But from whence did the PUA lifestyle spring? Was it not a reaction to feminism? And as for sowing one’s wild oats, I don’t deny this has been told to young men from time immemorial, the key word here being, of course, young. Women possess lower levels of testosterone and have a much slower sexual cycle: ovulation at the rate of one gamete per month.

    Your other obvious error is that you believe, like Haley, that men were profligate in their ways in times gone by, but this also is a falsehood: : It is arithmetically impossible for polygamy to be the norm for men throughout a society because of the human sex ratio at birth.

    So what we have here is in fact, the direct opposite of Kay Hymowitz’s ‘child man’; rather, we have the ‘child woman’ in the promised land. Haley clearly wants the benefits of a traditional marriage, but is unwilling to pay the costs; she wants a man to marry her without her having to marry the man. It is the eternal dream
    of irresponsible freedom: in the feminist formulation, freedom for women, responsibility for men.

  40. Langobard June 2, 2011 at 8:12 pm #

    Again, this post seems a bit vindictive and out-of-character for Haley… like it is motivated out of a sense of revenge or something.

  41. Langobard June 2, 2011 at 8:17 pm #

    I am really coming to believe the assessment of feminism as the world’s biggest collective shit test – a massive weeding-out process of inferior men by asking them for social favors on a societal scale. @Badger

    Actually, this whole thread seems like a proverbial $#!+ test as well.

  42. detinennui32 June 2, 2011 at 8:29 pm #

    Badg, please screenshot this post and fisk it. $10 says Haley pulls this post and the comments.

    This post should be preserved for posterity one way or another.

  43. Badger June 2, 2011 at 8:32 pm #

    “Actually, this whole thread seems like a proverbial $#!+ test as well.”

    Why I’ve responded to it the way I do most fitness tests, with as few words as possible.

    “Again, this post seems a bit vindictive and out-of-character for Haley… like it is motivated out of a sense of revenge or something.”

    I say this entirely without snark and without shaming – I think Haley is suffering the pain of not having a supportive relationship in her life. Involuntary late 20′s singleness (and not just singleness, not having much opportunity for couplehood) is tough on a woman just as it is for a man.

    The lack of opportunity in particular was incredibly taxing on me. It is the reason a lot of us took the red pill and got into game. (Ironically, much of my recent relationship success comes from internalizing the feeling that I don’t need to have a relationship to be a complete person.) So I have some/a lot of empathy for her situation.

  44. Kathy June 2, 2011 at 9:01 pm #

    “Isay this entirely without snark and without shaming – I think Haley is suffering the pain of not having a supportive relationship in her life. Involuntary late 20′s singleness (and not just singleness, not having much opportunity for couplehood) is tough on a woman just as it is for a man.”

    Be that as it may Badger, Haley is rather cruel, unfair and insensitive in her(untrue, I believe) assertions of men in general. Bearing in mind that only about 10% of men are supposed to be Alpha, as many have pointed out here.

    I, like Julie, cannot relate to her(childish) rant.

    My own opinion is, she is extremely fussy and holds way too high an opinion of herself.

    I think Brendan sums it up really well on a comment over at your blog, Badg.

    “Haley is kind of a microcosmic example of the problem many women like her face: only want (and only care about) the alpha male, but not hot enough to attract one let alone convince one to commit to her. An approach that will virtually guarantee misery, but so it goes”

    It’s called “punching above one’s weight”

    Haley is making her bed. If she doesn’t change her attitude she may well end up lying in it alone. :(

  45. Hana June 2, 2011 at 9:17 pm #

    “The purpose was to reveal Haley’s distinction between alpha and beta: the alpha is a demigod; the beta shits his pants. There is nothing in between, and all women have tastes similar to Oscar Wilde’s – they are always satisfied with the best.”

    I disagree with your “all women” – I’m a woman and don’t draw this distinction. In fact, I don’t really get this line-in-the-sand distinction in the manosphere (not necessarily this blog, just in general) between alphas and betas. I know quite a few perfectly decent men who are somewhere on the continuum between omega and alpha, and if any of them pursued me, I wouldn’t turn them down. Maybe it’s different in America (I live in Canada – ha), but I don’t see a world where a few men are confident, dominant alphas, and the rest are wimpy beta slobs. I see a world where there are about as many alpha females as alpha males, and beta females as beta males, and most people eventually pair up accordingly.
    I don’t take all the doctrines in the manosphere too seriously.

  46. Badger June 2, 2011 at 9:19 pm #

    Hana,

    Please evangelize your view, eh. ;)

  47. Hana June 2, 2011 at 9:26 pm #

    Ha – I don’t know if I’m representative of all women, either! There are enough men out there who I *wouldn’t* consider. But seriously, go to any wedding. Given that alphas represent 10% of the population, the likelihood is high that it will be a beta woman marrying a beta male. And guess what else? The likelihood is high that she’ll be looking at him like he’s the most alpha of alphas (and he’ll be looking at her the same way).

  48. Badger June 2, 2011 at 9:28 pm #

    I’m having an eerie flashback to this:

    http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/self-portrait/

  49. Badger June 2, 2011 at 9:30 pm #

    Hana,

    You’ve got it right, in theory. In a sane, stable society, widespread monogamy is pareto optimal (i.e. best for the overall group). Assortive mating + gender roles = manly man + feminine woman = invested working man + stable home for children + frequent sexytime.

  50. Tim June 2, 2011 at 10:11 pm #

    Sometimes I can get a little spergy. I’m sure Haley’s swell. Alpha and beta are only used because men like targets and structure. But I do agree that these are traits which belong to a continuum and most men possess both aspects of them to varying degrees at times.

    I’m from Vancouver, BC. Which province do you live in?

  51. theprivateman June 2, 2011 at 10:23 pm #

    Small wonder that my blog had its second highest view count ever.

    And Haley is curiously absent from these comments.

  52. Aunt Haley June 2, 2011 at 11:01 pm #

    I’m going through the mountain of replies now.

    I wrote this post as an explanation, but as usual, a lot of people think that I’m writing a diary entry. And of course, someone who didn’t like what I wrote thought it was appropriate to call me a bitch, which is usually what happens when others disagree with something a woman has said.

    Maybe no one here knows any young women well enough to know what they think about things. But I guarantee you that if you approach the average female college student or someone who is deeply invested in “equalist” relationships or an old-school feminist, you will hear a lot of what I wrote here parroted back.

  53. Kathy June 2, 2011 at 11:05 pm #

    “In fact, I don’t really get this line-in-the-sand distinction in the manosphere (not necessarily this blog, just in general) between alphas and betas.”

    Me either, Hanna. I live in Australia, and only came across the terminology on American blogs.

    I wouldn’t call my husband an Alpha or a Beta.. He’s never been a chocolates and flowers kind of guy..He’s more likely to cook a nice stir -fry for me on the weekend when he has more time.

    He’s a practical guy. What you see is what you get. Honest to a fault. Smart and caring.. He is no pushover though, and doesn’t suffer fools gladly. He gets very involved in his work, and he works hard. His standards are high. He’s a perfectionist..(and has built a thriving business as a result) I know he does it all for me and the kids, so I like to be a pleasant distraction from work for him when he gets home. ;)

    We have similar interests and enjoy watching the football and having a beer(or wine) on a Friday night.

    I think he is just the most sexiest guy with the most beautiful blue eyes…. He has always done it for me.

    And, he’s not even an Alpha!

    Who knew? :D

  54. Old Guy June 2, 2011 at 11:37 pm #

    Haley’s rubbing aspiring alphas’ noses in a mess that smells like their own. Guys who think women in general should make it their business to make them happy are engaged in a reverse apex fallacy, “The Crown of Creation? C’est moi.”

    The only comment I can see her wanting to make is “QED”.

  55. modernguy June 2, 2011 at 11:50 pm #

    “But I guarantee you that if you approach the average female college student or someone who is deeply invested in “equalist” relationships or an old-school feminist, you will hear a lot of what I wrote here parroted back.”

    Phew, now we can stop wondering why women are so reluctant to make us feel appreciated. It’s because of our socioeconomic and political privilege! Who are we to be loved by our wives and girlfriends when children in Africa are starving?! I used to be puzzled at women’s behavior, but now I know that everything they do is with a thought to the underprivileged.

    It’s so much clearer now that Haley has explained it to us so well. Either that or the fumes wafting up from the underwear I turned inside out this morning are making me high.

  56. modernguy June 2, 2011 at 11:54 pm #

    Hey Old Guy: not women in general, just wives and girlfriends.

  57. modernguy June 2, 2011 at 11:57 pm #

    “And of course, someone who didn’t like what I wrote thought it was appropriate to call me a bitch, which is usually what happens when others disagree with something a woman has said.”

    And when women disagree with something a man says they call him a loser, so it’s a wash really.

  58. Ceer June 3, 2011 at 12:46 am #

    It seems to me lack of alpha in men and a dearth of compliments from women is a chicken & egg type problem.

    Based on Haley’s OP, women don’t want to compliment men who are alpha because they will have more power in a relationship. They don’t want to compliment betas and omegas because they don’t feel they deserve it (IE, no gina tingles). The men these women interact with see no social hints helping to reinforce more alpha traits. This is perhaps part of the reason why alphas are so few in our culture.

    Haley’s story with her brother illustrates why women should pay attention and compliment men for positive actions. Remember, in a choice between respect and love, many men would rather have respect. Compliments are a display of respect. A respect-starved man may not care where he gets his compliments from (signifying scarcity mentality), which Haley correctly sees as Omega. However, when the women in a man’s life compliment him properly about his alpha and beta behaviors, they reinforce those. Men who are more used to such compliments are no longer starved for respect, and hence more likely to consider whether or not he is worthy of any particular compliment.

  59. Old Guy June 3, 2011 at 1:31 am #

    Modernguy: Oh, please. Turn it up to 11.

    No one is complaining that the women they pass on the street do not try to make them happy; they’re whinging that possible wives and girlfriends (that is, women generally) are disinclined to flatter their men to make them happy. They complain about women in general terms, like, say, you used @ 11:50 pm.

  60. jen June 3, 2011 at 5:47 am #

    I am not in my twenties, far from it, and happily married..but I sooo get this. I am really surprised by the comments here.

  61. modernguy June 3, 2011 at 7:23 am #

    Olg Guy: no one is wondering why women are not going around praising bums to the sky like they’re the world’s greatest heroes. Normal men are wondering what it takes to inspire a woman’s admiration these days. Which in the case of Haley and as she admits her college aged and feminist sisterhood seems to mean that you should be an obvious alpha, attractive to all her girlfriends with the potential to form an immediate harem (and even wash your own underwear too!). Oh wait, even that’s not enough, because then you have too much power and showing admiration would blow up your ego! Presumably we should live in a world where positive feelings towards oneself from one’s SO may or may not exist, but must always be guessed at, inferred, or divined like some ancient mystery. Of course you should always be expressively desirous of her, otherwise you’re cold and indifferent.

  62. Joseph Dantes June 3, 2011 at 7:32 am #

    Haley, this is required reading for you:

    http://www.sfweekly.com/content/printVersion/1885368/

    Note the two who succeeded –
    The graceful demure Asian chick who simply lacked confidence, and fixed it by learning to approach, and
    The relaxed chick who employed subtle flattery and proximity by talking to the guy about his world and creating a bubble by talking about the surrounding scene. And by being quite forward, in an indirect, non-leader way.

  63. Joseph Dantes June 3, 2011 at 7:39 am #

    And note all the excuses made by the stupid (lonely) women:

    Preoccupation with girl bonding and bitching and challenging men
    “There are no good men here” instead of competing for the best one available
    Talking about boring crap instead of being fascinating (talking about what the other person finds fascinating)
    Too much insecurity to go solo,
    Need to reject men too early to self-validate, or lack of patience if chemistry isn’t immediate
    Passively waiting to be swept off feet
    Excessive ego and knowitall-ism, inability to see own incompetence
    Total inability to rationally pursue own goals
    Inability to use femininity to be artfully inviting without being obvious (raising slut flags). Guys can FEEL the signals as a warmness in the ego even if they don’t pick up on them consciously. And if they are aware but not pursuing, they’re either shy or you don’t meet their standards.

    Gee, do any of those sound like you?

  64. Martini June 3, 2011 at 7:46 am #

    I’m curious about this, what exactly do you guys want to hear from
    “your” women? Praise for your looks, sexual prowess, brains, strength?
    How much, how often? If you get flattered daily, doesn’t it lose its value?

    Or do you want other forms of tribute for your wonderfulness? Does physical affection (not sex) rate as sufficient appreciation?

    I always thought mainly women were guilty of this praise n’ compliments need; I’ve been corrected.

  65. Badger June 3, 2011 at 7:49 am #

    After sleeping on it I’m not sure what the point of this post is. Lesser men don’t deserve praise because they are unworthy, but greater men don’t deserve it because they get enough perks anyway?

    My question to women that think this way is what do you have to offer? What is your life plan wrt the opposite sex if you construct a mental catch-22 where a man can never earn a woman’s goodwill?

    I also wonder if there’s some sibling rivalry in Haley’s family – maybe her brother is the Eddie Haskell golden boy who gets away with everything (possibly encouraged by her QB father), and she’s projected that onto men writ large.

    “if you approach the average female college student or someone who is deeply invested in “equalist” relationships or an old-school feminist, you will hear a lot of what I wrote here parroted back.”

    What does this prove? Misandry is right because it’s popular? A large portion of the Manosphere is dedicated to showing that many women in this category are deeply deluded about the SMP.

  66. detinennui32 June 3, 2011 at 7:50 am #

    Let’s try a thought experinemt.

    Let’s turn Aunt Haley’s esaay around and view it through men’s prisms.

    “It’s remarkable but I wonder how many men resist or completely reject such female advice [to commit to or marry a woman] because of manosphere grounds (“women are self-absorbed overgrown children who don’t love us and use us anyway”) or their own sense of self-preservation causes them to stick their heads in the sand.”

    The answer is: a lot.

    The reason that men resist and reject (mostly female and feminist) advice to invest in, commit to and marry woman is basically an issue of self-preservation. You wouldn’t know it from reading sites like DateMeDC or HaleysHalo, but women, especially if young and good looking, get the majority of perks in the sexual marketplace. They get the best, wealthiest, most powerful men. They persuade and manipulate those men into spending obscene amounts of money on them. They sex up those men with full pornstar treatment while carelessly laughing at betas who truly love them. They get perks like trips, meals, gifts, clothes, entertainment, and drinks — all completely free, without spending a dime.

    These young, good looking women get to do anything they want, say anything they want, anytime they want, anywhere they want and receive very little judgment for it. The alphas don’t care because if they get tired of her, she’s history. The betas say nothing in the hopes that she’ll give them a dopple of attention someday. These women fully know all of this, of course, and keep the betas stringing along. They have beta orbiters waiting in the wings to step in when they are kicked off the alpha carousel.

    Then, when they’ve hit the wall and they can’t pull alphas anymore, they are usually able to reel in a beta provider to support them, father their spoiled brat cuckolded children, and finance their houses, cars and bling. When she’s sick of beta, she tosses him aside while expecting the endless money supply to continue, enforced by the court system.

    Meanwhile, men are expected to shut up, get their fat asses back to work, bring home that paycheck, take Entitled Princess out for her weekly dinner and movie date, and never do anything to stand up to her fitness tests for fear that she’ll leave him.

    Given these circumstances, it’s pretty easy to see why a modern man balks at investiing in, committing to or marrying today’s woman. In his mind, she already has the world’s oyster in her palm (and it was placed there by feminism). Giving her MORE deference, MORE investment, MORE money/gifts/perks and MORE time is only going to inflate her ego (and sense of self-entitlement and wildly inflated view of her own SMV) even more than it already is and make her feel even more entitled to the things society has already given her. And what, exactly, has this woman done to earn any of these things other than be born with a vagina? Furthermore, if a man invests in, commits to or marries today’s woman, she will just take him for granted and feel she has the ability to make unqualified demands as well as the right not to be of any help to the man. Men can’t see how treating a woman well (i.e., like a cherished part of his life or even as a wife) for no reason other than that she is a woman can result in anything good for themselves.

    Additionally, every man either has a friend or knows somebody who got an entitled princess girlfriend and then turned into an average frustrated chump who does everything she asks him to do and she still treats him like dirt, spenda all his money, makes unreasonable demands on his time, and when it isn’t enough she gives him no physical attention whatsoever. And the friend will insist that he has to stay with her because he has no other options. No sane man wants this to happen to him or be seen as weak and controllable, so that’s another reason that men tend to be resistant to giving women what they say they want (because what women say they want, and what they actually want, are very often two quite different and mutually exclusive things).

    Some of this attitude stems from male polyamory. Men want sex all the time from most women. But men know that most women find only a few men even remotely attractive. Men also know that the “alpha male” who most women want comprises a small percentage of the male population. So most men are considered beta and totally invisible to most women. Men know that all of this severely limits their options. Add to this their 5-10% approach success rate (i.e. 90 to 95% of approaches result in flat out rejection) and their options constrict even more.

    A man knows his woman is hypergamous and in many cases she will have no compunction about straying if she perceives her man as lower value than another interested prospect. A man could treat such a woman as a queen/princess, and he still runs the risk of her cheating/cuckolding. So in a defensive measure, the man will do what he thinks will shore up his power (refuse to invest, date casually, neg, be aloof) and thus deny her what she wants or what she thinks she is entitled to (undivided attention, being lavished with gifts and perks all while doling out sex when she feels like it). Then the woman won’t feel quite so sseure about walking all over him because she knows if she does, he’ll walk and find another more agreeable woman. And if this happens enough times to her, it’s off the carousel and to Feline City.

    Another reason is the American culture of trash celebrity worship, where we take pride in learning about do-nothing celebutards who could not think their way out of wet paper sacks and much American lore is centered around women who Can’t Do Anything For Themselves, as opposed to getting something because of your female body parts. This attitude extends to mating, as well. It’s hard for men to realize that everything their ignorant, feminist parents and others taught them about how the world works apparently doesn’t work at all in romantic male/female relationships, and it’s not like any major media is out there promoting the red pill truth, anyway.

    (It IS kind of ironic, though, that women who will complain incessantly that “I Just want a Nice Guy who will Treat Me Right” will never actually be happy when several such men in perfect succession fall into their laps. And they’re not happy because they are beta providers, not alpha males.)

    I can hear the cries rising up from the “I am woman, hear me roar” contingent already, so let me be clear that YES, a lot of this modern male attitude is a response to feminism and hypergamy and WAH WAH WAH I JUST WANT A NICE GUY WHO WILL TREAT ME RIGHT ALL YOU MALE CHAUVINIST PIGS CARE ABOUT IS SEX THEY DISRESPECT AND USE US COMMITMENTPHOBIA WAHHHHH YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT OUR MINDS CAREERS JOBS WANTS NEEDS DESIRES ORGASM PUMP & DUMP INSENSITIVE UNCARING EMOTIONAL RETARDS WAHHHHHHH. But at the same time, men instinctively don’t want to dish out investment, money, time, commitment and marriage to women who act like sluts, behave like entitled princesses, spend them into bankruptcy, and who will simply leave them when they think something better has come along or because “I’m bored” — all while expecting us to wait for the sloppy seconds until after they’ve had their fun on the carousel. Sorry, Princess Paula. And sorry, Slutty Samantha. And sorry, Career Girl Carrie. And sorry, Blingy Brenda. A lot of times men see women as overgrown children who seem barely able to take care of themselves. They live in fantasy worlds created by themselves and their BFFs. They think getting married is equivalent to being married all while treating their men like dirt and always on the lookout to trade him in. They would rather spend $1000 on a Louis Vuitton handbag than give their man an encouraging word or a simple, heartfelt “I love you” at the end of a long day at work. And men think to themselves, “I’m working a full-time job and still living respectably, but I’m supposed to tell this girl how wonderful she is and drop $200 on her at Chez Paul?!?

    So what is the solution? It’s not castigating men and screeching that everything is their fault. (See: Dr. Helen, Badgerhut, and until June 2, HaleysHalo.) Explanations of the differences between what motivates men and what motivates women are all fine and good, but you can’t undo a couple of generations of feminist dogma raised to a level of canonical faith to go bye-bye with a few sarcastic zingers and female complaining. Demonstrating attractive female characteristics like chastity, femininity, pleasantness, pleasing physical appearance and cheerfulness is the best way to go, especially if done with confidence and good humor. Femininity is irresistible, so show some femininity and men will gladly open their hearts, homes and checkbooks. (If they don’t, you might have wildly unrealistic expectations. Best to get a reality check in that case.)

    Detinennui32

  67. jz June 3, 2011 at 7:50 am #

    Bang on , Haley.

  68. Badger June 3, 2011 at 7:58 am #

    “Or do you want other forms of tribute for your wonderfulness? Does physical affection (not sex) rate as sufficient appreciation?”

    I don’t understand your concept of relationships. Don’t you want to be in a relationship where your partner makes you feel good about yourself? Doesn’t your partner deserve the same courtesy? People who talk like this sound like they aren’t very open to the various languages of love.

    “I always thought mainly women were guilty of this praise n’ compliments need; I’ve been corrected.”

    Calling it a “need” sounds pejorative, trying to paint a man as childish, but it is in fact a need, like bathing or eating. Couples need to do it every day to keep the relationship humming. Being in a relationship is not being roommates with occasional nookie. I JUST wrote a post on this – if you don’t make your man feel good about himself, he’ll find someone who will just as if he doesn’t make you tingle it will “just happen” with another guy.

    Martini and Haley seem to think that “making him feel good about himself” equals syncophantic unearned praise. It suggests to me a snotty “how do I get the most male investment for the lowest investment on my part” attitude.

  69. Brendan June 3, 2011 at 8:01 am #

    I don’t know why the conversation has become focused on “compliments”. The article cited in MM’s blog post focused instead on this:

    “But don’t lose sight of the fact that a quality man wants what he can’t get from his guy friends:

    Someone who makes him feel good.
    Someone who makes him feel secure.
    Someone who makes him feel loved.
    Someone who makes him feel sexy.
    Someone who makes him feel trusted.

    It’s great that you’re awesome to your friends, generous to your family, loyal to your employer, and on the board of three different charities.

    But if you’re not consistently making your man feel good when he’s around you, he’s going to disappear and find a woman who does.”

    It’s not specifically “I need compliments from you, woman!”, it’s that men strongly prefer women who make them feel good about themselves. That can be communicated in numerous ways, and verbal compliments, while a part of that, are not the only, and certainly not the leading, part. It’s amazing that this is controversial, really.

  70. y81 June 3, 2011 at 8:04 am #

    I appreciate Haley’s point that the OP is a description of how many women think, not necessarily an endorsement of that thinking or a statement about her own thinking. However, the only advice Haley proffers is to men, namely that they should “show some greatness.” But to the extent that someone else’s beliefs are based on a seriously false perception of reality (i.e., the “apex fallacy” that many commenters invoke), there’s no point in modifying your behavior to please those people. Conforming to others’ false perceptions of reality is the road to madness.

  71. detinennui32 June 3, 2011 at 8:07 am #

    Martini:

    We want you to celebrate with us when we’ve triumphed.
    We want you to help us through when we’re down.
    We want you to stay with us when we’re down.
    We want you to not be constantly looking for a better model.
    We want you to encourage us when things aren’t going well.
    We want a simple, heartfelt “I love you” at the end of a tough day.
    We want you to show us and tell us that we satisfy you sexually.
    Wa want you to show us that we are still attractive to you physically.

    A man NEVER gets tired of hearing from his woman how great she thinks he is. NEVER. You can’t say it enough. If you do say it, you will have his undying love.

    He will work himself into an early grave at a job he hates for you and your children. He will gladly throw himself in front of speeding cars for you. He will gladly lay down his life for you. He will give you all he is, all he has, all his money, and all the resources he can bring to bear.

    And all he asks in return is for tenderness, a pleasant disposition, physical affection at reasonable intervals, and that you stay with him.

    Why is that so hard to figure out?

  72. modernguy June 3, 2011 at 8:08 am #

    Martini: via detineenui32, “They would rather
    spend $1000 on a Louis Vuitton handbag than
    give their man an encouraging word or a simple,
    heartfelt “I love you” at the end of a long day at
    work.” That sums up the average guy’s steep demands for “flattery” pretty well.

    Detinennui32: well played.

  73. jz June 3, 2011 at 8:39 am #

    So, men strongly prefer women who make them feel good about themselves. Fair enough. But don’t they want to *earn* those feelings??

    I am constitutionally incapable of flattery, false compliments, bone throwing, or generalized fakery. Somehow my marriage has survived.

  74. Julie June 3, 2011 at 8:41 am #

    I think what women need to keep in mind is that respect is to men what love is to women. Or at least that’s my understanding.

    When I was single, I frequently gave compliments and respect to the men around me. It was annoying when men I wasn’t interested in then started to pursue me. And disappointing when men I was interested in did not pursue me. But they were all my brothers in Christ–I still think it was right to be kind and respectful and encouraging to them.

  75. Martini June 3, 2011 at 8:49 am #

    “People who talk like this sound like they aren’t very open to the various languages of love.” I’m very Nordic so I don’t always verbalize my appreciation to my spouse; my love language is more in the physical realm. I just wasn’t raised in a family atmosphere where verbal praise and compliments were common so to me, this “need” seems a bit silly. But I’m getting better at doing this. I’ve even evolved to use “I love you” frequently…huge step for me.

    “We want you to celebrate with us when we’ve triumphed.
    We want you to help us through when we’re down.
    We want you to stay with us when we’re down.
    We want you to not be constantly looking for a better model.
    We want you to encourage us when things aren’t going well.
    We want a simple, heartfelt “I love you” at the end of a tough day.
    We want you to show us and tell us that we satisfy you sexually.
    We want you to show us that we are still attractive to you physically.”

    Well articulated, and I do these things, and get them back in turn. That’s what most mature, intelligent women want; they don’t particularly want a man to die for them.

    However, these things aren’t handed out to casual dates, short-term relationships, and certainly not hook-ups; it’s for serious stuff; I think that’s what Haley meant. You don’t get appreciation and praise just for showing up. Some women will gush over a man and pour on the phony sentiment; some of us think that’s cheap; if we give a compliment, we actually mean it.

    Note: anyone who knows me would laugh at the thought of me carrying a Louis Vuitton handbag; I’d more likely be carrying a $5 totebag.

  76. Brendan June 3, 2011 at 8:53 am #

    So, men strongly prefer women who make them feel good about themselves. Fair enough. But don’t they want to *earn* those feelings??

    Not necessarily. In every marriage there are times when things go awry. Perhaps a job has been lost. Perhaps there are times of great misunderstanding between the spouses and resulting stress. Making the man feel good about himself is one of the primary ways men experience love from women — if it needs to be “earned” from a spouse, then this throws the whole concept of love as a decision on its head.

    Do women also want to “earn” love from their husbands? So if they are doing something their husbands don’t like, it’s okay and expected for men to cease expressing love? If their appearance changes, for example, it’s okay if a man’s expression of love for them is withheld, because it hasn’t been “earned” (remember, this is the attractional equiavalent of “displaying greatness” which Haley has marked here as the benchmark for “meriting” a female expression of support and making the man feel good about himself.

  77. detinennui32 June 3, 2011 at 9:04 am #

    Martini:

    Haley’s original post talks about dating and LTRs. The original source was PrivateMan’s post about dating advice to women, and asking whether women actually take that advice to dole out a compliment on dates.

    If you’re on a date with a guy you like, don’t you think a compliment would be a good indicator of interest that might move things along? Even if it’s a compliment that you don’t really mean? If it seems manipulative, ask this: do you like this guy and want this to go to something more? If so, don’t you want to say things that might help in that process?

    It seems as though you expect the man to do all the work, make all the investment, and put himself all the way out there just for the possibility of a date or two. I echo Badger: When I was on dates as a younger man, what I should have been doing with the girls in addition to my efforts, was asking the silent questions:

    “What do YOU have to offer ME?”
    “What do YOU bring to the table?”
    “What’s in thie for ME?”

    If I follow you, your response would be that I have to do everything and bring everything, and all you have to do is show up.

    This is not difficult.

  78. detinennui32 June 3, 2011 at 9:18 am #

    Martini: “But I’m getting better at doing this. I’ve even evolved to use “I love you” frequently…huge step for me.”

    Martini, I’d like to use this as a springboard to ask a serious question. Please don’t take this as a personal attack. It’s really not.

    People wonder why we have a 50% divorce rate and women initiate 70% of divorces in this country.

    Telling a husband “I love you” and MEANING IT would take care of more than half of the problems. Seriously.

    You “USE” “I love you”. Use? Use it for what? You make it sound like your words of affection are a manipulative ploy, as though they were a tool you employ to accomplish a specific task or end.

    I just don’t understand how a wife’s telling her husband that she loves him is like pulling teeth. I don’t get it. At all. I hear this so often from women. Even my own wife did this.

    If it’s so hard for a wife to tell a husband that she loves him, why does she marry him?

    And if she truly feels and experiences that emotion, why is it so hard to express to a man she cared about enough to stand up in front of God, her family, an officiant and the world and promise to love, honor and cherish?

    She lives with him, eats with him, sleeps with him and has sex with him. And she has a hard time telling him frequently that she loves him?

    I don’t get it. I don’t get it at all.

    Please help me understand.

  79. Martini June 3, 2011 at 9:52 am #

    You “USE” “I love you”.

    Argh, meant to type in “say I love you.” The problem of e-communication!
    I say it just because…not to get something or for manipulation purposes.

    “Please help me understand.”

    In my case, it’s just my heritage and background. My family, while not
    entirely Spockian, was not especially demonstrative of love, although there was
    and is plenty of love and concern. Very little hugging, no verbal “I love you’s.”
    So my husband was the first in our relationship to use the L word; I was hesitate to say it just because it seemed so foreign to me (why do I have to say it, he knows I feel it?). But I can do it now, with complete comfort!

    My guess for other women: it’s a sign of weakness and vulnerability and she’s not going there, especially if she’s been burned before. She may not feel secure enough in the relationship or respected. Women need respect also, not just men.

    Also, the levels of snark, cynicism and “irony” today have reached toxic levels. Does the average 20-something even have a clue as to what “love” actually is…rather than just an itch in the groin?

  80. detinennui32 June 3, 2011 at 10:00 am #

    Julie says: “I think what women need to keep in mind is that respect is to men what love is to women. Or at least that’s my understanding.

    When I was single, I frequently gave compliments and respect to the men around me. It was annoying when men I wasn’t interested in then started to pursue me. And disappointing when men I was interested in did not pursue me. But they were all my brothers in Christ–I still think it was right to be kind and respectful and encouraging to them.”

    Fascinating. Two things:

    1. I venture that a lot of men you weren’t interested in saw your compliments as IOIs (indicators of interest) even though you weren’t interested in them. That’s probably why you had guys you didn’t like approaching you. It’s not a condemnation, but an observation.

    2. The second paragraph is proof positive that the rules of the sexual marketplace apply to everyone, everywhere, at all times, including the Christian community. Even good Christian girls are hypergamous, want the best men, and are annoyed at interest from what they view as uninteresting (read: unattractive, beta) men. Even Christian men think about sex constantly. Not a judgment, just an observation.

  81. jz June 3, 2011 at 10:11 am #

    @Brenden above:
    True enough. In the context of marriage, a little bit of merit, and a lot of unconditional love would sustain a husband.

  82. Langobard June 3, 2011 at 10:23 am #

    …But I guarantee you that if you approach the average female college student or someone who is deeply invested in “equalist” relationships or an old-school feminist, you will hear a lot of what I wrote here parroted back. @Haley

    Perhaps, but I, and probably a lot of the others here, thought you were different from these types of girls, especially since you identify as a Christian.

  83. Brendan June 3, 2011 at 10:24 am #

    Also, the levels of snark, cynicism and “irony” today have reached toxic levels.

    This is true enough. As in “When I said ‘I love you’, I was saying that ‘ironically’ … you know, a kind of ‘ironic reference’ to an outmoted romantic cliche, yeah?”.

    It’s one of the least impressive of the current trend in communication styles, really.

  84. Julie June 3, 2011 at 11:13 am #

    Yes, they probably saw it as interest on my part. Yes, all women are hypergamous, BUT some women are more so than others. Many of my female friends who are objectively more attractive than me, are happily married to men who wouldn’t have interested me at all.

  85. namae nanka June 3, 2011 at 11:17 am #

    “But at the same time, women instinctively don’t want to dish out praise and coddling to men they don’t respect.”

    The only thing men should take away from this is to know what “respect” means from a female viewpoint.
    Women can raise lions or lambs, the constant being what benefits them.

    “And what, exactly, has this man done to earn any of these things other than be born with a penis?”

    Exactly what should be asked of women. And how could they so easily slip off this line:

    “I’m working a full-time job and still living respectably, but I’m supposed to tell this guy how wonderful he is and bring him his slippers?!?”

    women’s respect? lol no thanks, will gladly take a dog’s over it any day.

  86. Tim June 3, 2011 at 11:37 am #

    I have no problem with hypergamy, but does an ordinary woman deserve an alpha male? It is to laugh.

  87. Langobard June 3, 2011 at 11:50 am #

    …does an ordinary woman deserve an alpha male?

    Only if she is masochistic and enjoys being used.

    This is the problem with our narcissistic, childish culture – in that so many people, especially women – think they are so ‘above average’ and ‘special’ that they are entitled to be with a romantic partner well above them just to ‘confirm’ just what a ‘special snowflake’ she is.

    *And this conceit sadly does not typically diminish in Christian circles – in fact it more often than not increases this conceit – with so many thinking because they ‘love Jesus’, somehow this entitles them to ‘Prince Charming’ and a pain-free, ‘wonderful’ life. (Nowhere is this of course to be found in the actual Bible – just in the fevered, gnostic imagination of consumerist Churchianity.)

  88. Joseph Dantes June 3, 2011 at 11:54 am #

    The major lesson of this post and the article I linked to is that women don’t want to learn, listen, improve, or take responsibility.

    They want to dabble, be validated, complain, analyze, introspect.

  89. detinennui32 June 3, 2011 at 12:33 pm #

    “The major lesson of this post and the article I linked to is that women don’t want to learn, listen, improve, or take responsibility.

    They want to dabble, be validated, complain, analyze, introspect.”

    True that, Joseph. Again, what a disappointment to see these kinds of feminist and man-shaming viewpoints validated on this site, hosted by a self-identifying Christian woman.

    Today I am ashamed of those who claim to represent my faith.

    Over and out.

  90. Brendan June 3, 2011 at 2:19 pm #

    True that, Joseph. Again, what a disappointment to see these kinds of feminist and man-shaming viewpoints validated on this site, hosted by a self-identifying Christian woman.

    Today I am ashamed of those who claim to represent my faith.

    Oh they’re more prevalent over at Boundless, which this site was, I gather, in part started to react against.

  91. Julie June 3, 2011 at 2:51 pm #

    Women simply want to marry someone they’re attracted to.

    Instead of being told that few women will get an alpha, and that few women will marry someone for whom they feel intense passion, women are instead told not to “settle” and not to be with a man unless he makes her heart go pitter patter right off the bat.

    Women should be told that most everyone ends up marrying someone who is about their equal in attractiveness. They should be told that their attractiveness declines with age, because beauty/fertility are so strongly linked. They should be told that for most of them, it’s unrealistic to marry their “ideal man” and even if they did, he probably wouldn’t be the most stable husband. They should be told to look for a man of strong character and solid faith, and that chemistry can grow if there is a small spark at all. Have high ideals, but about the right things. Have high ideals, but be realistic!

  92. theprivateman June 3, 2011 at 4:45 pm #

    “Women simply want to marry someone they’re attracted to.”

    Therein lies the rub.

  93. Silas Reinagel June 3, 2011 at 5:57 pm #

    Perhaps, but I, and probably a lot of the others here, thought you were different from these types of girls, especially since you identify as a Christian.
    That is nearly always a mistake.

    Most “Christian” girls today hardly qualitatively differ from their secular counterparts. Nearly all American girls have drunk deeply from the poisoned well of feminism.

    Our culture has pushed the deadly and destructive lie that life is all about maximizing your own selfishness. Heaven forbid anyone actually do something to bring joy to another individual!

  94. Badger June 3, 2011 at 9:42 pm #

    modernguy,

    “There is no man in the world who is going to be fooled into thinking that you’re worth more because you’re playing hard to get.”

    Yes.

    Kathy,

    ” Be that as it may Badger, Haley is rather cruel, unfair and insensitive in her(untrue, I believe) assertions of men in general. Bearing in mind that only about 10% of men are supposed to be Alpha, as many have pointed out here.

    I, like Julie, cannot relate to her(childish) rant.”

    I am heartened by this – to be honest I was expecting some of the more religiously oriented commenters to circle the wagons around the single Christian woman.

  95. Retrenched June 3, 2011 at 9:47 pm #

    “The major lesson of this post and the article I linked to is that women don’t want to learn, listen, improve, or take responsibility.”

    Yet they never stop demanding that men do all of those things…

  96. Ceer June 3, 2011 at 10:56 pm #

    @ Martini

    Try this compliment form: “You did [action X], you did [action Y]. You also did [action Z]. I appreciate you.”

  97. Badger June 3, 2011 at 11:22 pm #

    Martini,

    It sounds to me like you do express your love, just not verbally, and you’ve been hung up on “praise” as brought up on this post when you don’t prioritize that particular love language. Sounds to me like you are doing fine.

  98. The Man Who Was . . . June 3, 2011 at 11:24 pm #

    Most “Christian” girls today hardly qualitatively differ from their secular counterparts.

    Having dated a lot of both in the past few years, I can say that this is utterly false. There is a huge difference between devout Christians and secular girls. Devout Christian women have their own peculiar faults and have selectively adopted some of the noxious aspects of the general culture, but to not see the difference between the two groups you have to be pretty blind.

  99. Paige June 4, 2011 at 7:03 am #

    I did not read all comments so forgive me if I am repeating what someone else said.

    For women their value is based mostly on their appearance which is largely genetic. Mens social success is less dependent on their appearance which means they can EARN social success and THIS is where my jealousy lies. Ugly guys make it “big” and get women all the time. An ugly girl can’t earn enough money or get enough career success to get good looking men. If your a woman and born ugly you are just screwed.

  100. Paige June 4, 2011 at 7:11 am #

    I don’t understand the shaming that haley is getting. She is explaining the thought processes of the typical woman. The fact that these thoughts are offensive has nothing to do with whether they are an accurate depiction of the female perception of men.

    It seems to me ya’ll are shooting the messenger here.

  101. Langobard June 4, 2011 at 9:29 am #

    She is explaining the thought processes of the typical woman.

    The ‘typical woman’s’ thoughts, however, are largely filtered through the distorting prism of feminism and massive female entitlement.

    Ugly guys make it “big” and get women all the time.

    Such as who?

  102. Ceer June 4, 2011 at 10:13 am #

    @Paige

    Because a casual perusal of the OP reads like a young woman’s screed with head hamster in full spin. For now, I’m firmly in the “Haley is just bringing this up to help us deal with it” camp, but I could be wrong. Haley has been known to flip out and go 100% girly on us before.

  103. Tim June 4, 2011 at 10:37 am #

    Ya Paige I can only concur with Langboard. What you say isn’t bothersome; what is bothersome is that you are asking for a parent/child relationship. If “female nature abhors an alpha male vacuum”, then you cannot be equal. Feminists have been lying, then. Male nature does not abhor an alpha female vacuum. You cannot have both: you cannot insist upon equality and then abhor an alpha male vacuum at the same time. You must choose: you are either a “dependent” upon your husband and accept the fact you are not his equal, or you can be equal and accept the fact female nature is weak. You cannot have both. You cannot insist you are a man’s equal, and then claim to be in need of an alpha male. This is the bait and switch that men are sick of. Haley, in this post, pulled the most egregious of all bait and switches.

  104. The Man Who Was . . . June 4, 2011 at 10:48 am #

    Haley has been known to flip out and go 100% girly on us before.

    1. The amount of ire that this post has aroused has surprised me, together with all the unwarranted speculations about Haley’s personal life. All girls, even genuinely good girls, will spazz out from time to time. You can’t judge a girl’s overall character on the basis of one or two stupid things they say. This is a really stupid post. That’s all. It deserves to be called out as stupid, but nothing more. If Haley writes more stupid posts like this then we will certainly be able to infer something about her personal character, but I don’t think that is warranted at this time. IMO, she has built up a certain amount of credibility over time and I’m willing to cut her some slack.

    2. About the only plausible thing I have heard here about Haley’s personal predilections is that she is strongly attracted to high end alpha males, but cannot attract, much less keep, anyone even close. I can somewhat sympathize with her frustration. Women have their own problems too, and for any particular woman they can be as bad as for any particular male (though on average things are much worse for men). Unfortunately, not much can be done about it.

  105. Dalrock June 4, 2011 at 10:53 am #

    If I’m reading this right, the men you are attracted to you resent for being successful, and the men who aren’t successful you resent for not being attractive.

    And women think to themselves, “I’m working a full-time job and still living respectably, but I’m supposed to tell this guy how wonderful he is and bring him his slippers?!?”

    But why should a woman be in this situation in the first place? The Private Man’s post is about dating. He isn’t suggesting women find some random bum she finds unattractive and start buttering him up. If a woman shares your view and thinks lowly of the man, she should not be in a relationship with him. It really is that simple. If all men are either too good or unworthy of you, then hang up your courting hat and make the best of your life as a single woman.

    A surprisingly large portion of your posts are focused on arguing why women are justified in marrying men they don’t really love. Yet this post makes my case better than I could myself. If you marry a man you can’t fall head over heels in love with, you will treat him with contempt. He doesn’t deserve a wife who treats him with contempt. So just drive on. Don’t worry, another woman is very likely to be able to fall in love with him. You aren’t harming him by not tricking him into marriage. He and his loving wife will hopefully be extremely happy. So it is a win-win-win. Happy husband and wife, happy Haley who doesn’t have to stoop to marry a loser. Everybody wins.

  106. Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Tech June 4, 2011 at 10:57 am #

    @Paige

    I’m sure that this is the typical thought process of a woman. It also means that the typical woman thought processes are feminist and leftist and have a secret hatred for men. This could have come straight from Jezebel.com. Since it talks about “white males” some of this could have come from a black power rally. The only reason this sort of thing isn’t verboten in polite society is because it’s directed against (white) men.

  107. Paige June 4, 2011 at 11:12 am #

    I think MOST women have a secret jealousy of men. I don’t hate men but I can’t pretend that I am not jealous of men. While the manosphere paints a different picture the men in my life seem far more relaxed and care-free than I am. They don’t worry about the same things I do and the things they do worry about don’t seem to consume them. Men seem to have an “off” switch for their worries and most the women that I know are “on” 24/7.

  108. Retrenched June 4, 2011 at 11:15 am #

    @ Dalrock

    “If I’m reading this right, the men you are attracted to you resent for being successful, and the men who aren’t successful you resent for not being attractive.”

    This is a dilemma that successful women inevitably face. As their own socioeconomic status increases, they find fewer and fewer higher status men that they are able to find hypergamously attractive. And even some of those high status men end up marrying waitresses instead, which further shrinks an already small pool of super alphas that successful women might potentially date or marry.

  109. Badger June 4, 2011 at 12:20 pm #

    Morticia,

    “While the manosphere paints a different picture the men in my life seem far more relaxed and care-free than I am. They don’t worry about the same things I do and the things they do worry about don’t seem to consume them. Men seem to have an “off” switch for their worries and most the women that I know are “on” 24/7.”

    1. What you should take from the Manosphere is that most men lead lives of quiet desperation – men are not going to tell others, especially women, they feel overwhelmed.

    2. I think this all-consuming worry is in large part due to our consumerist society. Women are sold hard the lifestyle of the “supermom,” and sitcoms/ads tell them they have to be domestic workaholics and on top of every issue. I have a lot of sympathy but the ads won’t stop; women have to actively unplug from this matrix.

    You have five kids so you really do have a lot of moving parts, but most middle-upper class women would probably do well to get a smaller house closer to work with less stuff it, clean it less often, and spend more time on the couch getting a footrub from hubby followed by a good afternoon roll in the hay.

    Retrenched,

    “This is a dilemma that successful women inevitably face. As their own socioeconomic status increases, they find fewer and fewer higher status men that they are able to find hypergamously attractive. And even some of those high status men end up marrying waitresses instead, which further shrinks an already small pool of super alphas that successful women might potentially date or marry.”

    Your analysis is correct, but incomplete. The sad fact is that plain women with unremarkable jobs also feel this way in an astounding proportion. They have absolute standards that conflict with the practice of assortive mating.

  110. Martini June 4, 2011 at 12:24 pm #

    “And even some of those high status men end up marrying waitresses instead,”

    Oh come on! Really? A waitress or anyone in the lower social status groups?
    An affair, a fling, for sure, but they don’t marry these girls. If they marry at all, it’s to someone young and beautiful (mostly) but she needs to have some status of her own – a model, actress or a subordinate in his own line of business. She then usually gives up her own interests to be his trophy wife and have his trophy children. These super alphas aren’t going to be walking the WalMart clerk down the aisle; she wouldn’t fit into their world.

    I’ve never gotten a sense that Haley expects to land one of these guys or anything that unrealistic.

    “I think MOST women have a secret jealousy of men.”

    Paige, I used to feel this way, not too much anymore. Suffering and misery are both equal opportunity states, the advantages one gender seems to have is offset by the disadvantages they inevitably discover. It really is a tiny percentage of the population that really has it that easy in life. Can’t turn off the worries? Try some breathing or meditation exercises.

    If some guys have a need to believe we (women) are inferior human garbage (looking at Tim!), I say let them think it…I wouldn’t take this thread of comfort away from them if I could. Whatever gets them thru their days.

  111. Tim June 4, 2011 at 12:42 pm #

    No, I don’t hate women. I hate the lies we’ve been sold for about 50 years. We were told the man should not be the head of the household. We were told were to be equals. We were told we had to shut our mouths and that if we spoke up we’d be fired, divorced and jailed.

    And now we are told that female nature abhors an alpha male vacuum.

    It is to laugh.

  112. The Man Who Was . . . June 4, 2011 at 12:45 pm #

    some of those high status men end up marrying waitresses instead

    The smart alpha marrying the waitress is indeed a vast exaggeration, but the point still stands that men are prepared to sacrifice status, accomplishments etc. in a mate for looks.

  113. Ceer June 4, 2011 at 12:46 pm #

    @ Paige

    They don’t worry about the same things I do and the things they do worry about don’t seem to consume them. Men seem to have an “off” switch for their worries and most the women that I know are “on” 24/7.

    That men can seem to have an “off switch” for their worries is a holdover from previous generations. For the proper functioning of a relationship, men were expected to leave work pressure at work and be relaxed as possible when they came home. This dynamic is still being doubly enforced today by rampant FRA and DV laws.

    You may feel like men have some sort of advantage here, but most of it is just taking social cues from their environment.

    Badger hit the nail on the head, but didn’t expand much. Men receive social pressure from a young age to not talk about their feelings. This is partially because women both consciously and subconsciously hate this. If you have ever seen a feminist chattering online about how men are whiny and complain about some topic, you’ve seen this before.

  114. Terse_man June 4, 2011 at 1:06 pm #

    Read the comments — Learn the truth

  115. Martini June 4, 2011 at 1:43 pm #

    “but the point still stands that men are prepared to sacrifice status, accomplishments etc. in a mate for looks.”

    I can’t disagree with this. All men certainly long for 10′s; we need to develop a race
    of women with super model looks and low in IQ’s, thus they’d be perfectly content to be purchased and owned as long as he treats them kindly and there’s no abuse. They could be trained like geishas to be super feminine, sexually skilled, whatever the market demanded. Men would have to be licensed to own an AmeriTen; keep the serial killers and pimps away.

    I like to throw out goofy ideas sometimes; what do you think guys?
    America desperately needs a new growth industry. Do I have a winner?

  116. Tim June 4, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    That sounds good but I already have friends who have accomplished this: they’ve moved to Asia.

  117. Martini June 4, 2011 at 2:03 pm #

    So Tim, you’re saying the women of Asia are low IQ?

    And can they legally OWN their Asian women? I’ve read awful stories about purchasing little Thai girls who have been trained to perform various sexual services for males and female trafficking in general; my plan could eliminate the “need” to do this, at least somewhat.

    Do you have plans to move to Asia and find a bride? Are your friends happy? No language/culture barriers?
    Forgive my nosiness; I’m just curious. (I have no kick against mail order brides).

  118. Tim June 4, 2011 at 2:24 pm #

    The ones who have gone to SE Asia are generally miserable. A few have succeeded, but they are the exception. The happiest are those who have gone to NE Asia – Japan and Korea. High IQ and no need to shit/fitness test, no blank slate/equalist shibboleths, and a strong respect for patriarchal authority and masculinity.

    No, I’ve no plans to move overseas. I actually like to argue, and so I am staying, and I will keep fighting white women all the way to my grave, until I am dead. I don’t care if I am alone because I am one of those types who doesn’t get lonely when they are alone. I will continue to fight by taking gender and sexuality studies courses at the university here, by audit. I will bring a camera and tape recorder to school and play them inside feminist studies courses, and I will study them, word for word, facial expression for facial expression. All words such as “essentialism” “paradigm” “subaltern” “heteronormative” will be scrutinized ruthlessly, until I am no longer breathing. This is a fight to the death, not physical of course. It is a fight over who gets to keep the kids after divorce, no-fault divorce, cuckoldry, lies, duplicitousness, multiculturalism, relativity, post-modernism, deconstructionism, post-colonialism, and feminism.

  119. Martini June 4, 2011 at 2:36 pm #

    Whew…that sounds kind of grim, Tim! Good luck.

    Paige, Haley, take note! Equal opportunity suffering and misery.
    Doesn’t sound like Tim is living a life of privilege.

  120. Joseph Dantes June 4, 2011 at 5:10 pm #

    For those who may have missed it, Haley is describing but not necessarily endorsing the viewpoint.

    A few relevant quotes on NE Asian women vs Western women’s need to compete with men:

    The big gulf between Western and Asian experience is that Asian women do not hate men. They do not have the sense that men owe them something for some past Big Sin or original sin (another example of how feminism is just bastardized Christianity is this push for the original sin / original depravity of men).

    `

    I have not heard, except from Westernized and Catholic Asian women, any sense that women are morally superior to men.

    `

    What this means is I have never witnessed the kind of shaming and hostility that Western women exhibit. An Asian woman, wanting a man to “do something,” won’t shame with a “man up,” but will go whiny and needy – more traditional, girly ways of utilizing men.

  121. lifeinlonglegs June 4, 2011 at 5:37 pm #

    “A lot of times women see men as overgrown children who seem barely able to take care of themselves.”

    1) A woman should find a man worth complimenting or not date at all.

    2) The issue here becomes one of the woman who has ‘dated’ [aka slept with] men high above her perceived mate value and thus has an overestimation of her own “actual” mate value as deducted by males appraising her like she’s an item on Antiques Road Show.

    3) Women fail to realize that a man who falls a bit below our perceived mate value can easily be encouraged into his potential with some genuine compliments – what is spoken over a man has power. Particularly, if you belive what the scriptures have to say about your mate and speak those things over him and into his life.

    The key is, don’t lie to the guy about his present reality, but know that what God says about your man has infinitely more value, truth, and power than what you presently observe or think about him.

  122. Retrenched June 4, 2011 at 7:45 pm #

    @ The Man Who Was

    “The smart alpha marrying the waitress is indeed a vast exaggeration”

    Fair enough. I just used it as an example to illustrate this point:

    “men are prepared to sacrifice status, accomplishments etc. in a mate for looks.”

    Admittedly though, the high status alpha playing the field before he settles down at 40 with a 22-yr old model is a more likely scenario.

  123. theprivateman June 4, 2011 at 9:36 pm #

    “While the Manosphere paints a different picture the men in my life seem far more relaxed and care-free than I am. They don’t worry about the same things I do and the things they do worry about don’t seem to consume them. Men seem to have an “off” switch for their worries and most the women that I know are “on” 24/7.”

    Honest response?

    Not our problem.

    Don’t project your emotional issues onto us.

    Seriously.

    Such projection ruins relationships.

    We have our own worries – and they lead to disease and early death – and as men, we are told to “man up” and deal with them.

    Want equality? Deal with emotions like adults…

    Wait, equality…nevermind.

  124. Paige June 5, 2011 at 6:04 am #

    I don’t think my inability to compartmentalize is a sign of immaturity. I think it is just one of the standard differences between men and women. I don’t relax and enjoy life because I am always thinking about what could go wrong and trying to prevent it.

    The only time I ever relax is when I am drinking or sleeping. My husband seems to be able to enjoy the moment and forget his troubles for the time being.

    It isn’t a problem I think can be solved. I think it amounts to different wiring.

  125. Brendan June 5, 2011 at 6:58 am #

    I don’t think my inability to compartmentalize is a sign of immaturity. I think it is just one of the standard differences between men and women. I don’t relax and enjoy life because I am always thinking about what could go wrong and trying to prevent it.

    The only time I ever relax is when I am drinking or sleeping. My husband seems to be able to enjoy the moment and forget his troubles for the time being.

    It isn’t a problem I think can be solved. I think it amounts to different wiring.

    I agree that this is a sex difference that has to do with men’s ability to compartmentalize a bit more effectively, on average, than women seem to be able to.

  126. Brendan June 5, 2011 at 7:01 am #

    2. About the only plausible thing I have heard here about Haley’s personal predilections is that she is strongly attracted to high end alpha males, but cannot attract, much less keep, anyone even close. I can somewhat sympathize with her frustration. Women have their own problems too, and for any particular woman they can be as bad as for any particular male (though on average things are much worse for men). Unfortunately, not much can be done about it.

    @Thursday –

    This is my assessment as well. It’s true that attraction is hard to change, especially at a more advanced age. I think many/most boys ratchet their attraction into a more realistic range when they are young, due to rejection, but not all, and in this age of porn marination, it’s an issue with men as well. But if she is in that situation, it’s a tough spot, really.

  127. jen June 5, 2011 at 7:04 am #

    response to Aunt Haley on June 2, 2011 at 7:57 am:

    The privateman, in his most recent blog entry, wrote, “It’s remarkable but I wonder how many women resist or completely reject such advice [to make a man feel good] because of feminist, ideological grounds (“it’s wrong to make a man feel good”) or their own sense of fabulousness causes them to stick their heads in [...]

    I don’t think my inability to compartmentalize is a sign of immaturity. I think it is just one of the standard differences between men and women. I don’t relax and enjoy life because I am always thinking about what could go wrong and trying to prevent it.

    The only time I ever relax is when I am drinking or sleeping. My husband seems to be able to enjoy the moment and forget his troubles for the time being.

    It isn’t a problem I think can be solved. I think it amounts to different wiring.
    —————————————————
    I totally agree with you here…its an observation, and at times it can frustrate me. I wish I were more like that.

  128. Langobard June 5, 2011 at 12:05 pm #

    …You wouldn’t know it from reading manosphere sites, but men, especially if white and educated, get the majority of perks in the world. They get the best jobs. They occupy the top of pretty much every occupational field, fields of women’s interests included (fashion, beauty, cooking, media). They make the most money. …

    Maybe in 1911, not 2011 -

    David Brooks (don’t forget his new book) writes:

    …in 1954, about 96 percent of American men between the ages of 25 and 54 worked. Today that number is around 80 percent. One-fifth of all men in their prime working ages are not getting up and going to work. According to figures from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the United States has a smaller share of prime age men in the work force than any other G-7 nation. The number of Americans on the permanent disability rolls, meanwhile, has steadily increased. Ten years ago, 5 million Americans collected a federal disability benefit. Now 8.2 million do. That costs taxpayers $115 billion a year, or about $1,500 per household.

    …There are probably more idle men now than at any time since the Great Depression, and this time the problem is mostly structural, not cyclical. These men will find it hard to attract spouses. Many will pick up habits that have a corrosive cultural influence on those around them.

    [...]

    http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/05/loser-men.html

  129. Langobard June 5, 2011 at 12:16 pm #

    This is my assessment as well. It’s true that attraction is hard to change, especially at a more advanced age. I think many/most boys ratchet their attraction into a more realistic range when they are young, due to rejection, but not all, and in this age of porn marination, it’s an issue with men as well. But if she is in that situation, it’s a tough spot, really. @Brendan
    ___

    One of the most significant problems of course is the highly corrosive effects of urban living on relationships (with all its anonymity and especially unaccountability) and with Haley living in LA, and originally hailing from the mid-west, I could imagine this might perhaps play an appreciably negative role in her social life — as it would for any decent person, particularly a Christian.

    Roissy had a post on this -

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/urban-living-is-bad-for-relationships/

    Hey, it’s not called “Californication” for nothing, after all.

  130. Perseus June 6, 2011 at 1:07 am #

    Really? Still with the ‘privileged white guy’ tripe?

    Pathological narcissism, royalty who can’t see her own privilege, but fixates on imaginary privilege of the subjected.

    So how is it being a racist?

    Look at graduation rates, suicide rates, homeless rates, death and injury rates, divorce-rape rates- and tell us who’s privileged, sweet-tart.

  131. Terse_man June 6, 2011 at 8:57 am #

    “One-fifth of all men in their prime working ages are not getting up and going to work.”

    When the taxes they pay go to single mothers, why should they?

  132. Langobard June 6, 2011 at 11:22 am #

    “One-fifth of all men in their prime working ages are not getting up and going to work.”

    When the taxes they pay go to single mothers, why should they? @Terse_man
    ___

    Well, its not like these guys have better things to do than go to work .. and collect a paycheck to survive – it is because so many jobs lost over the last few years have hit men far more disproportionately than it has women (yet, ‘White boyz’ are sooo ‘privileged’):

    The Mancession – NYTimes.com
    By CATHERINE RAMPELL

    We’ve pointed out before that that recession has disproportionately hurt men, who are more likely to work in cyclically sensitive industries like manufacturing and construction. Women, on the other hand, are overrepresented in more downturn-resistant sectors like education and health care.

    Casey B. Mulligan noted, for example, that for the first time in American history women are coming close to representing the majority of the national work force. It would of course be a bittersweet milestone, given that it comes primarily as a result of men’s layoffs.

    http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/10/the-mancession/

  133. terry@breathinggrace June 6, 2011 at 3:04 pm #

    “Lesser men don’t deserve praise because they are unworthy, but greater men don’t deserve it because they get enough perks anyway?

    My question to women that think this way is what do you have to offer? What is your life plan wrt the opposite sex if you construct a mental catch-22 where a man can never earn a woman’s goodwill?”

    I fully agree with Badger, here. Further, the only time a woman should be going out of her way to make a man pleased and happy IMHO, is when she has already determined he is worth her time and effort. Every man doesn’t deserve the best a woman has to offer, but her man does.

    Therefore, if a woman enters a marriage with the mindset that said man doesn’t deserve such treatment, I can fully appreciate why many of the men in this part of the ‘net are so anti-marriage. Why marry a woman who thinks its alright to be duped into marriage by a woman who will quickly proceed to “put him in his place,”, divorce him, and take his kids and half his money because he’s had the world handed to him and is therefore undeserving of the love and devotion of the woman he has loved and devoted his life to?

  134. Terse_man June 6, 2011 at 4:44 pm #

    “Lesser men don’t deserve praise because they are unworthy, but greater men don’t deserve it because they get enough perks anyway?”

    Why don’t you ladies try this out for ten years and report back on how well it works for you?

  135. terry@breathinggrace June 6, 2011 at 5:56 pm #

    @ Terse_Man:

    You do realize that Badger posed this as a synopsis of what Haley was getting at:

    <i.“Lesser men don’t deserve praise because they are unworthy, but greater men don’t deserve it because they get enough perks anyway?”

    He further went on to imply that the idea is absurd, and I agreed with him. No one here (besides possibly Haley) implied that this is a desirable course of action for a woman to take. Just the opposite, in fact. I think you read the comment too fast and maybe missed the point I was attempting to make.

    Of course, neither I nor my husband fit into the “privileged” demographic she referred to in the post so I should probably have remained silent. But the idea that there is any reason at all that a woman shouldn’t defer to a good man, especially if he has declared and given her his devotion, kind of rubs me the wrong way…

  136. recovering beta June 6, 2011 at 7:27 pm #

    The unwillingness of women to encourage men in general is a sign of their unwillingness to submit to God’s authority and God’s greatest commandment, which is to love others as we love ourselves, to do unto others as we would have them do unto you. Are you suggesting then, Aunt Haley that what you want from men is for them to actively undermine and sabotage you and refuse to meet your needs? This willful headstrong unyielding defiance is the characteristic of a life out of step with Christ, at least the Christ of the bible.

    It seems as though you have accepted the worldly standard of a man, which is the kind hollywood glorifies.

    If a woman is unwilling or incapable of being a help mate, with at that it entails, than she is unfit for marriage, or any serious relationship for that matter. If a woman has a principally negative feelings toward men, she’s unfit for relationship also.

    conversely, if a man senses this negativity in a woman, she must necessarily be either avoided or chastened. It seems, Aunt Haley, that you are at least guilty of this in-part.

    It would seem that you have surrendered to bitterness and cynicism, neither of which honor Christ.

  137. Richard Aubrey June 6, 2011 at 8:09 pm #

    In Men, Woman, Enjoying the Difference, Crabb discusses different, if equal, roles in marriage.
    One of the issues he discusses in detail is that when a wife appreciates, trusts, praises her husband, he gets bigger. He is more proactive, more courageous, more loving, more competent, and better in bed. The last is not quite euphemism.
    If she cuts him down, diminishes him, demeans him, he gets smaller, more passive, less loving, and sits on the sofa thinking nasty, perverted thoughts, but doesn’t come to bed. That isn’t stated with euphemism, either.
    It is not, as far as I can make out, that Crabb is saying that a guy who’s cut down says, the hell with it and stays on the sofa letting the world go by. It’s deeper than that, and, according to Crabb, not necessarily conscious.
    From which Crabb says a wife can actually make her husband a better man by appreciating and supporting and trusting him, or ruin him by the opposite.
    Other practitioners will address the issue glancingly, but Crabb goes into it in detail.
    He may be right, or not. Worth thinking about.
    It can be overdone. I’ve been married for about forty years, so memory fades. However, I once dated a girl who was always going on about “you’re so smart” and so forth. It creeped me out eventually. Not too much later, I ran into a mutual friend and said, “#### is kind of dim, isn’t she?” “Oh, no. Honors College without spending much time on the books, too.”
    So it was an act.
    I was concerned about what about me indicated to her that I needed such tripe.
    Point is, a woman who doesn’t provide genuine respect and appreciation for actual achievement is not doing her relationship or herself any good.

  138. recovering beta June 6, 2011 at 8:22 pm #

    detinennui32

    wow! that thought experiment was amazing!

    keep it up

  139. Hana June 6, 2011 at 9:01 pm #

    It’s funny, isn’t it? Thousands of years later, the curse of the Garden of Eden holds true. Women are frustrated because they desire men, yet their husbands “rule over them.” Men are frustrated because they work hard, yet reap small rewards for their efforts.

    One thing I’ve realized from reading all these comments is that is that neither gender has a monopoly on resentment. The difference between spoiled whining and legitimate frustration is more or less the difference between who is writing the comment and who is reading it.

  140. recovering beta June 6, 2011 at 9:52 pm #

    hana

    “It’s funny, isn’t it? Thousands of years later, the curse of the Garden of Eden holds true. Women are frustrated because they desire men, yet their husbands “rule over them.” Men are frustrated because they work hard, yet reap small rewards for their efforts.

    One thing I’ve realized from reading all these comments is that is that neither gender has a monopoly on resentment. The difference between spoiled whining and legitimate frustration is more or less the difference between who is writing the comment and who is reading it.”

    mostly true

    What I personally have taken away from all of these discussion is this:

    I must take women at their word, and honor their request.

    I have already departed on the path to Alpha-dom, I will refrain from pursuing any women either as friends or for romance until I reach said Alpha status. Confident that I will never reach Alpha status I will courageously travel down the lonely road alone, blissful in my sol-cious-ness! So more time making money, more time riffing my axe, more time building my business, writing novels, shooting pics and clubbing whenever possible.

    As a Christian though, I don’t believe Alpha is the Character of Christ. Christ came not to be served, but to serve. I know I forget that a lot. So, I am really confident that I will never be Alpha. I know That I’ll never be the man that most women Will be attracted to.

    This does bring some peace because I have a hard time imagining myself with anyone. I have a hard time understanding the “upside” of romantic relationship.

    I mean, seriously… what is a relationship supposed to offer anyway?

  141. Badger June 6, 2011 at 10:03 pm #

    “This does bring some peace because I have a hard time imagining myself with anyone. I have a hard time understanding the “upside” of romantic relationship.

    I mean, seriously… what is a relationship supposed to offer anyway?”

    He actually brings up a really fascinating paradox. Women want guys to be “alpha” – to own the room, to be his own man, to be going places, etc etc.

    Trouble is, where’s the room for her in there? What’s the point of him investing in a “relationship” if he’s so self-sufficient all she can really provide him that he doesn’t already have is sexual attention?

    Some women are very blunt about it – they just meet him at the castle gates and enjoy the life he built by himself. Witness how many more women want to date a doctor and enjoy the fruits of his career than date a medical student and help grow the fruit.

  142. jack June 7, 2011 at 3:05 am #

    Martini, you angry, quivering shrew:

    What gets me through the day is seeing women angry and frustrated by their own foolishness.

    And no, we don’t want stupid women. We want smart women that are secure enough that they don’t have to turn everything into a competition. That is immature.

    What’s that? I can’t handle a ‘strong woman’? Sure I can. Just like I could learn to handle your chunky rear and probable B.O. on occasion.

    But I don’t want to.

    When I come home from a hard day at work, hot and tired, I DON’T pour myself a scalding hot cup of coffee mixed with gravel just to defiantly prove how I am able to ‘handle’ a challenging, disappointing beverage.

    No, sweet pea, I want a cool, refreshing cocktail or beer, pleasant and soothing. Home is supposed to be a refuge. Shrewish women want to turn it into a Coliseum, full of emotional and psychological bloodsport.

    You can throw your soul to the lions if you like, but I would rather come home and be alone. Yes, a loving supportive wife would be better, but I’d rather have nothing than have to deal with a b*tchy wife.

    Here’s a little exercise for you – after your next big tough day at work, come home and lie down on a concrete floor, just to prove to everyone how you are not ‘weak’ and ‘needy’.

    You go grrrrlll – we know you’re tough, now prove it.

    Fact is, most modern women really hate men, no matter how they may say otherwise.

    Why else would so many women let themselves completely go after marriage? No better way to tell your husband you don’t give a crap about him than by packing on the pounds.

  143. Martini June 7, 2011 at 6:21 am #

    Jack: Wife get fat and bitchy on you? Sorry about that, buddy, but shrieking
    at anonymous women on the internet won’t help you out.

    No, we “modern women” don’t hate men; some of us just question
    traditional gender dynamics/rules because they no longer seem to fit how
    most of us actually live in the world…and some of us oddballs never did fit into
    traditional “feminine” behavioral modes.

    Was it the Stepford wife question that got you so “angry and quivering?” That’s a common manosphere theme (virtual women, fem-bots, artificial wombs!); so
    obviously I’m not the only person who wonders whether this is indeed what a percentage of men really would prefer. We’ve come a long way in tampering with the human body at the expense of ethics (octomoms!), how much farther will we go to give people what they want?

    Take care Jack! (I am a little disappointed you called me Sweet Pea instead of the traditional Cupcake)

  144. Hermes June 7, 2011 at 7:33 am #

    Witness how many more women want to date a doctor and enjoy the fruits of his career than date a medical student and help grow the fruit.

    Heh. I started medical school with the expectation that at least some conservative Christian women would want to help grow the fruit. I’ve been single the whole time, and graduated last month. I’ll let you know when they start beating down my door.

    Seriously, though, Jack is right. The art of being loving and supportive seems to have been completely lost, even among “conservative” Christian women. Even in church social circles, it’s all sarcastic banter, all the time. These women think they’re sh*t testing us, proving us all unworthy, but they don’t realize that if they act that way, we don’t want to marry them anyway.

  145. jack June 7, 2011 at 8:05 am #

    Martini-

    Keeping girls thin is easy – just don’t put a ring on their finger.

    I get that you’re not typically feminine – but you seem to have a lot of problems with the fact that most guys would like a traditional girl, and that being unfeminine and difficult is not seen as strength.

    Incidentally, you really should try to generate your own barbs rather than copying mine, although I am flattered that you didn’t think you could come up with anything better.

    Your insistence on framing the debate in terms of either ‘strong confident’ (read: b*itchy) woman or stepford wife is typical girl-think. No middle ground, only two choices: the extreme position you prefer, and the extreme position that you accuse others of holding.

    If you were as strong as you claim to be, you could be a supportive, refreshing positive influence to your husband rather than insisting on being a pain.

    I have met very few women who do not engage in this “argument by extreme”.

    I’m not sure which is more disappointing, the idea that they might actually be stupid enough to think in extremes, or the fact that they think anyone else is stupid enough to be swayed by such an adolescent presentation of a viewpoint.

    Belligerence is never sexy.

  146. Eumaios June 7, 2011 at 12:07 pm #

    Anyone who still thinks Haley is expressing her own opinion, take another look at the post title. It’s not “Why I am afraid to pump up men’s egos.”

  147. Just Passing By June 7, 2011 at 1:17 pm #

    So, men strongly prefer women who make them feel good about themselves. Fair enough. But don’t they want to *earn* those feelings??

    So, women strongly prefer men who love them. Fair enough. But don’t they want to *earn* that love?

    Say, you seem to have confused “husband” with “employee”.

    I am constitutionally incapable of flattery, false compliments, bone throwing, or generalized fakery. Somehow my marriage has survived.

    I do not see any men asking for flattery, false compliments, bone throwing or generalized fakery.
    Rather, I see men who would prefer to have a wife that is a companion, and not a competitor, a friend and not an enemy. Perhaps if you had to actually live with a modern woman for a few months, you might come to understand what the men are trying to say.

  148. Eumaios June 7, 2011 at 5:07 pm #

    “Perhaps if you had to actually live with a modern woman for a few months, you might come to understand what the men are trying to say.”

    Women living together often come to despise each other. Modern women might wish to consider whether men feel the same disgust for them as they feel for each other.

  149. namae nanka June 8, 2011 at 11:17 am #

    “So, men strongly prefer women who make them feel good about themselves. Fair enough. But don’t they want to *earn* those feelings??”

    lol their “trying” to “earn” it is the problem. Women aren’t direct, take non-belligerence for weakness and hence a man is doomed to betadom when he tries to earn it the way men are currently taught to.

  150. jack June 8, 2011 at 2:08 pm #

    Plenty of Christian women want men to “earn” their respect yet are more than content to accept God’s gift of unearned grace.

    Take heed what measure you mete-

  151. udolipixie June 12, 2011 at 9:58 pm #

    Amazing article.

    It addresses the male ego problem so of course they’ll be bitter comments.

    A lot of men only see the female ego problem because they aren’t concerned with male ego problems or refuse to think the majority of their gender has a problem.

    It’s quite when addressing a gender issue that gender will claim only a few of their gender is like that or the person addressing the problem has had bad experiences.

    “Behind the whole game, when you pull back the curtain you find that women have an intuitive sense that they’re not really all that special or unique and that looks is what gets them by with men. ”
    Yet they claim not pumping up his ego is an apex fallacy.

    Apparently it’s not just “alpha” men who will explore options.

  152. udolipixie June 12, 2011 at 10:04 pm #

    *they’ll should be there will

  153. modernguy June 13, 2011 at 6:56 pm #

    udolipixie, what is the male ego problem, in your view?

    And the apex fallacy in this case is when Haley says that men already have too much power and making them feel loved (which she confuses for flattery) will blow up their egos. Most men are not in that position, the ones at the ‘apex’ are.

  154. udolipixie June 15, 2011 at 6:27 pm #

    You don’t need power to have an ego problem.

    Once again modernguy with that post you showed that.

    The ego problem males have is self entitlement.

    The female/male ego problem is just that self entitlement.

    Look at all the self entitled princes and princesses in America.

    The Princes want a young attractive pleasant housewife or a girl with traditional values whose not a slut and will always perform her wifely duty.

    * young & attractive . most guys feel entitled to this but are upset and call shallow when a woman rejects them based on looks and they want a chance and if not given assume he would have been perfect for her.

    * housewife/traditional . do all the work or most of it despite them not being the sole breadwinner (earn all)/traditional guy(earn most of the money)

    * not a slut is determined at his discretion. ironically most males view their virginity as a burden & if not a virgin they themselves would not have a low # if they could. if they have a high number or wanted to have on okay to want something you can’t provide except most men attach a behavior to it and that’s viewing women who do the same as them less than themselves.

    *wifely duty. no longer is sex just expected it becomes an obligation but of course it shouldn’t be treated like one by just laying there. grin it & bear it. If not done the woman is being selfish for ignoring his emotional needs. Of course it should be added that the man is not responsible for her orgasm but it doesn’t work both ways if it did she could just lay there and never perform oral again.

    If what you want was bullets of the problem or examples just respond.

    The pumping up his ego could result in destabilizing the relationship by increasing his sex rank hazardous since apparent,y it’s not just Alpha’s who’ll explore options. (athol).

  155. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 5:28 am #

    udolipixe:

    Yeah, I agree with you that men are hypocrites there. But it doesn’t matter, because we do everything. It’s hard to see it now because basically everything is done. Society is established, nature has been dominated to a point that all you have to do as a woman is go into a cushy air conditioned office and shuffle some papers around. And you call that ‘work’. No woman in the world is doing the kind of work that men have done to raise humanity up from the dirt. Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks.

    Like I said, it’s hard to see that now because everything has been built. If you think I’m being hysterical or a misogynist or an idiot, all you have to do is go to a coal mine or an oil rig and relieve those men of their duties. If you really want equality it’s your obligation. If you don’t, then be what men want you to be.

  156. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 5:57 am #

    @modernguy
    This is exactly the problem.

    Funny how men claim women feel entitled because they have a vagina when men feel entitled because they have a d*ck.

    Most men take the credit of what other men have done

    ” No woman in the world is doing the kind of work that men have done to raise humanity up from the dirt.”

    But are all men doing what these men have done?

    No.

    So why should women please men for past men’s actions?

    By that logic women should also hate men for past men’s cruelty/oppression.

    By that logic all men are rapists because other men have raped.

    ” Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it.”

    There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. ”

    Unless the man is risking his life for women or working in the coal mines you don’t deserve what you want in women because you haven’t done the work.

    Just because past men and other men have put their lives on the line for women doesn’t mean all men deserve what they want.

    By that logic since past women and other women are oppresses by men I deserve anything I want from a man.

    “It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks.”
    So I’m supposed to please a man because other men have taken the risks?

    I won’t be what men want me to be because there is equality.

    I work for my own financial security, I pay taxes, and I have a job.

    By that logic all men should be pleasing women for past mens crimes and other mens crimes.

    Fortunately there are guys like you to remind women no standard is too high because while most women may want these things unlike most men they don’t feel they deserve it because of what other men have done.

  157. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 6:07 am #

    @modernguy”
    You’re not being hysterical, misogynist, or an idiot just a guy with the male ego problem a self-entitled prince.

    What is idiotic is this:
    “all you have to do is go to a coal mine or an oil rig and relieve those men of their duties.”

    How come men get to claim since other men today and men in the past work these jobs they get what they want but women don’t get to claim since other women today work these jobs they don’t have to be anything?

    If all men get to coattail on what members of their gender do so should women.

    If not it’s not a double standard but idiocy to excuse this male ego problem just like oh men oppressed women in the past is used to excuse the female ego problem.

    What’s misogynistic is saying that women should be what men want. If men want these things they can go to foreign countries and purchase a mail order bride or go to prostitutes/hookers. By telling women to be what men this doesn’t enable love or trust in a relationship unless that women wants to be whatever men want.

    Do you want to be whatever women want?

    So explain why your double standard is excused.

  158. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 6:10 am #

    @modernguy
    Another logic fail is that if men deserve what they want they don’t need to pump up their men’s egos unless men not only want to feel entitled but arrogant entitlement as well.

    The male ego problem & female ego problem as well as the hookup culture is ruining modern dating not just women being afraid to pump up their mens ego.

    Sadly there aren’t enough worthwhile men and women to date as well just a mast of self entitled princes and princesses.

  159. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 6:25 am #

    If I wasn’t interested in being with women I wouldn’t have to pressure myself into being what women want, would I? There is double standard there too. Why should I take risks when I can just work a cushy office job and do fine? Why do women want me to be ambitious and resourceful? So I can buy a car with 300hp instead of one with 200? It’s not the same as in the past when taking risks was something you had to do to survive. But I still have to simulate that to please women, even though it’s not necessary. Likewise with you.

    And there is something else about your attitude. You seem to think that if men are not consistently proving their manhood that it’s not there. A proper feminine attitude is to respect men for their inherent masculine potential, not act like it’s absent until proven present.

  160. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 6:28 am #

    And no one is asking to get their ego pumped up. Why do you have to equate it with that? Men just want some signs of appreciation.

  161. Badger June 17, 2011 at 6:39 am #

    This entire discussion is based on a false premise. Generally speaking, men aren’t asking the women in their lives to “pump up their egos” without cause, they are asking to be appreciated for their qualities.

    This post appears to be a rationalization of Haley’s snobbishness in the face of her long-standing difficulties in seeking a mate.

    Haley’s post is based in a deep resentment of male achievement (in fact only achieved by a small handful of men, hence the term the “apex fallacy”) and a paranoid fear of infidelity that comes when the only men you find attractive also happen to have a lot of options.

    The joke’s on the gals, though. They can treat their man like a human being and have a successful rewarding relationship with him, or they can go Haley’s route where everything is a power game and no man above or below you is worth treating nicely, and have either doormat mates (tingle-killers) or roving alphas (no commitment). As I’ve noted above, the logic is backwards – the more effort you take in making sure your man is less than satisfied, the more easily he’ll be lured away by somebody who actually makes him feel good day to day (narcissists are the exception but they are very rare). It’s pretty simple really, if you don’t let your sinful pride get in the way.

  162. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 6:52 am #

    @modernguy
    “If I wasn’t interested in being with women I wouldn’t have to pressure myself into being what women want, would I? There is double standard there too. Why should I take risks when I can just work a cushy office job and do fine? Why do women want me to be ambitious and resourceful? So I can buy a car with 300hp instead of one with 200? It’s not the same as in the past when taking risks was something you had to do to survive. But I still have to simulate that to please women, even though it’s not necessary. Likewise with you.”

    But you’re not talking about working to being what the person you want likes but that men deserve what they want because of what other men have done.

    The logic fail in that is that men get to claim since other men today and men in the past work these jobs they get what they want but women don’t get to claim since other women today work these jobs they don’t have to be anything.

    You’re also saying that women should be what men want or go do what those men who put their lives on the live for women do.

    The logic fail in that is that men get to coattail on deserving because of what other men do but women don’t get to coattail on not being what men want because of what other women do.

    It’s not likewise. Likewise would be that we have to change ourselves to suit the tastes of the person we want.

    You’re talking about how men deserve what they want because of other mens work & that women should be it or do a mans work. How is that likewise?

    “And there is something else about your attitude. You seem to think that if men are not consistently proving their manhood that it’s not there. A proper feminine attitude is to respect men for their inherent masculine potential, not act like it’s absent until proven present.”

    No idea where you got that you’re projecting.

    Nothing about proving manhood 24/7 but that just because past men and other men have put their lives on the line for women doesn’t mean all men deserve what they want.

    Quite frankly there is something wrong with feeling you deserve anything because you share the same genitals of what others have done.

    What you said was that men deserve what they want because of men have done for women (coal mine/oil rig).

    My logic is that unless the man is risking his life for women or working in the coal mines you don’t deserve what you want in women because you haven’t done the work.

    Funny how you get me questioning manhood from applying your logic.

    So how come is doesn’t make sense that since if women don’t want to be what a man wants go work in the coal mines or on an oil rig to only men who risk their lives that only men who risk their lives should deserve what they want in a woman?

    You say women should work dangerously if they don’t want to be what men want (apparently they don’t get to coattail on other women who work dangerously) I say men should work dangerously to deserve what they want in a woman (they don’t get to cocktail either).

    Why should men get to coattail on others work but women have to do their own work?

    “And no one is asking to get their ego pumped up. Why do you have to equate it with that? Men just want some signs of appreciation.”

    Why should women show appreciation if men got what they deserve?

    It is pumping up their ego.

    If you deserve it there’s no need to show appreciation at most there should be just acknowledgement.

  163. This is Jen June 17, 2011 at 6:54 am #

    Badger says

    The joke’s on the gals, though. They can treat their man like a human being and have a successful rewarding relationship with him, or they can go Haley’s route where everything is a power game and no man above or below you is worth treating nicely, and have either doormat mates (tingle-killers) or roving alphas (no commitment). As I’ve noted above, the logic is backwards – the more effort you take in making sure your man is less than satisfied, the more easily he’ll be lured away by somebody who actually makes him feel good day to day (narcissists are the exception but they are very rare). It’s pretty simple really, if you don’t let your sinful pride get in the way.
    ———————————-

    I get what Haley is saying, tho. who praises women for all we accomplish? (answer no one), yet we are expected to act as if every little thing he does s so great. On a small scale, for example, I could get home from shopping and hubby announces something he has done ( a chore or fixed something) as if he is waiting for me to praise him, and I cant help but think to myself “geez do I announce everything that I do?”

    But I seey our point, too Badger, I reallly do

    home from the store and my hubs will announce something he has done ( some chore or fixed something ) and altho I appreciate it , I htink to myself

  164. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 6:55 am #

    @Badger
    What sinful pride?

    If you call refusing to pump up egos a sinful pride how is that sinful pride different from modernguy’s logic that men deserve what they want in a women because of other mens actions?

  165. This is Jen June 17, 2011 at 6:58 am #

    This is Jen

    ugh so sorry about my post up there..my computer was freaking out…hope you got my meaning

  166. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 7:00 am #

    @The Jen
    Neither gender is that appreciative of each other and it’s well known that women should be the ones doing the compliments and ego boosting of qualities (character, looks, personality, job) in a relationship while men at most compliment cooking, cleaning, & looks (the qualities that benefit him)

    @Badger
    How is not pumping up egos a sinful pride?

    How is not pumping up egos = not treating like a human being or not worth treating nicely?

    You’re not mistreating just not pumping up egos.

    That fear is quite rational according to athol”s destabilizing relationships theory.

  167. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 7:12 am #

    “If you deserve it there’s no need to show appreciation at most there should be just acknowledgement.”

    If this is your attitude you are going to have a hard time with men. They are not going to be happy with you. A man could get acknowledgement from his boss. No man is looking for a woman with such a stark attitude. Men want to be with women they enjoy being with. Women that make them happy.

    You’re asking why women should make unexceptional men happy. It depends on where your standard is. If you don’t respect a man for being a dedicated husband and father; if you see that as unworthy of appreciation, then you’re going to have a lot of difficulty in your relationships.

    As to riding on the coattails of other men’s hard work, in a way it is, and women have not done anything close to the kind of civilization building work that men have done. There are still jobs that require risk and hard work, but they are generally poorly paid and not respected. Ironically, women are not attracted to those men anyway. Would you respect a coal miner? You would probably think him stupid. On the other hand, a wall street trader who makes money shuffling paper is looked up to.

  168. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 7:23 am #

    @modernguy
    Do you see the contrast here?

    Why should women pump the egos of men who feel they deserve what they want & got based on coattail riding?

    Since coattailing is okay then all men should be pleasing women for past mens crimes and other mens crimes, women should also hate men for past men’s cruelty/oppression, and all men are rapists because other men have raped.

    No one deserves anything based on what others have done and certainly not to have their egos pumped when they get what they feel they deserved.

  169. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 7:25 am #

    “That fear is quite rational according to athol”s destabilizing relationships theory.”

    Except it’s totally irrational according to the “men want women they like being with” theory.

  170. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 7:31 am #

    @modernguy

    “Would you respect a coal miner? You would probably think him stupid. On the other hand, a wall street trader who makes money shuffling paper is looked up to.”

    Don’t assume you know anything about me.

    I respect anyone in a legal job who does it well.

    Yes I’d think his choice to work there was stupid but to me working in a dangerous situation is stupid but not that he as a person is stupid.

    “As to riding on the coattails of other men’s hard work, in a way it is, and women have not done anything close to the kind of civilization building work that men have done. ”
    That does not excuse the coattailing.

    By that logic it’s okay for a black person to mistreat/hate a white person since black people have not done anything close to enslaving whites like white people have done to them.

    So how is this coattailing excused?

    How do men deserve what they want based on other mens actions?

  171. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 7:34 am #

    “Why should women pump the egos of men who feel they deserve what they want & got based on coattail riding?”

    But what is the alternative. How should a man ‘prove’ himself to you? Yes, in the past men worked hard to benefit their children and give them easier lives. We all benefit from that, we all “ride on their coattails” to the point that most men don’t have to do that kind of life-threatening or back-breaking work anymore. Are you in favour of marriage and family formation? If not, you are free to to live a life of casual sex and informal relationships. If you are, then what would inspire you to appreciate a man?

    “No one deserves anything based on what others have done and certainly not to have their egos pumped when they get what they feel they deserved.”

    You are acting like an accountant of people’s worth. The question is, what do you want in a man? What would make you appreciate him?

  172. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 7:37 am #

    @modernguy
    “That fear is quite rational according to athol”s destabilizing relationships theory.”

    Except it’s totally irrational according to the “men want women they like being with” theory.

    That actually adds to it.

    By destabilizing one partner is “better” than the other (real or imagined through ego pumping) and men can like being with a woman better than being with another woman.

    So by ego pumping a man could rethink his dating value and want a woman he likes being with more.

    Scenario #1
    Say a fat guy could only get a fat woman (exaggerating since this implies fat mens choices are limited & fat women are unattractive).

    He likes being with her.

    He loses weight and a prettier girl is attracted to him.

    He likes being with the prettier girl better.

    Scenario #2 (imagined)
    Same fat guy & girl.

    He likes being with her.

    She ego pumps him.

    He becomes arrogant and on the side looks for prettier girls.

    He likes being with the prettier girl better.

  173. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 7:42 am #

    “He becomes arrogant and on the side looks for prettier girls.”

    Lol. This is a mistake women make because they are subject to it. If a guy supplicates to a woman she sees him as unmanly and weak, and starts to think she can do better. Men don’t think this way. When a woman supplicates to a man, he starts to think she is being feminine and starts to like her more!

  174. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 7:46 am #

    @modernguy
    “Why should women pump the egos of men who feel they deserve what they want & got based on coattail riding?”

    But what is the alternative.

    Has it gotten so bad that you can’t see that if people get what tgey deserve appreciation isn’t necessary just acknowledgement?

    “How should a man ‘prove’ himself to you? Yes, in the past men worked hard to benefit their children and give them easier lives. We all benefit from that, we all “ride on their coattails” to the point that most men don’t have to do that kind of life-threatening or back-breaking work anymore. Are you in favour of marriage and family formation? If not, you are free to to live a life of casual sex and informal relationships. If you are, then what would inspire you to appreciate a man?”

    Answers are unnecessary to the men deserve what they want based on other mens work topic.

    As for the riding coattails is feminism today okay with you? They’re riding cooattails with their logic that all men should be pleasing women for past mens crimes and other mens crimes, women should also hate men for past men’s cruelty/oppression, and all men are rapists because other men have raped.

    As for riding cooattails is a woman feeling entitled because she has a vagina and women in the past have suffered okay with you?

    “No one deserves anything based on what others have done and certainly not to have their egos pumped when they get what they feel they deserved.”

    You are acting like an accountant of people’s worth.

    What does not feeling like you deserve anything based on what other’s have done have anything to do with measuring work?

    That’s common sense.

    In most cases anything you deserve it’s based on your own work. (monetary inheritance that can be passed down is not included, genetic disorders)

    Has it gotten so bad that you can’t see that men don’t deserve what they want just because share the same genitals of what others have done?

    “The question is, what do you want in a man? What would make you appreciate him?”

    Answers are unnecesary to the men deserve what they want based on other mens work topic.

    The real question is why should men deserve what they want when it’s coatttailing but for you women should be what men want or go work dangerously since they apparently can’t coattail on other women who work dangerously?

    So why should men get to coattailing & deserve what they want while women don’t and have to do their own work?

  175. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 7:55 am #

    @modernguy
    Lol. This is a mistake women make because they are subject to it. If a guy supplicates to a woman she sees him as unmanly and weak, and starts to think she can do better. Men don’t think this way. When a woman supplicates to a man, he starts to think she is being feminine and starts to like her more!

    Really men don’t think this way?

    So the whole upgrading for a younger model in rich and middle class society is just a hallucination?

    Or will you answer this like most men/women do when addressing a gender issue and claim only a few of their gender is like that or that it’s just my/other womans bad experiences?

    Men do have the I can do better mindset.

    That’s not a gender thing but a human nature thing.

    If not then men wouldn’t be ranking women’s attractiveness or age if supplicating only matter.

    Plenty of unappealing young and old women who are desperate or supplicate how come men don’t line up for them?

    Because men do have a I can do better mindset especially since to you men deserve what they want.

    When you feel entitled I can do better usually follows as that is human nature.

    Remember this?
    “Behind the whole game, when you pull back the curtain you find that women have an intuitive sense that they’re not really all that special or unique and that looks is what gets them by with men. ”
    Yet they claim not pumping up his ego is an apex fallacy.

    Apparently it’s not just “alpha” men who will explore options.

    So even if the upgrading is just a hallucination to you with the men deserve what they want and women only offer looks it’s not that unfathomable that when pumping up egos men can think I can do better and have a better girl who supplicates them.

  176. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 7:58 am #

    “So why should men get to coattailing & deserve what they want while women don’t and have to do their own work?”

    What I’m saying is that the risks have been taken and the rewards have been won. I’m asking you what risks men should be taking to inspire your appreciation?

    “The real question is why should men deserve what they want when it’s coatttailing but for you women should be what men want or go work dangerously since they apparently can’t coattail on other women who work dangerously?”

    To the coat-tailing thing, I’m just saying that there should be a basic level of respect for masculinity, not necessarily that it deserves appreciation on account of the work of others. A level of respect by default. Even though this day-in-age there is precious little a man can do to demonstrate his natural masculinity. Because everything is already set up and nature has by-and-large been dominated. Beyond that I’m asking what a man can do that would inspire your appreciation? Is being a husband and father enough? Men want women who appreciate them, so I’m asking what it takes to get that nowadays?

  177. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 8:01 am #

    “So the whole upgrading for a younger model in rich and middle class society is just a hallucination?”

    But treating him badly won’t forestall that! It will make him even more likely to do it! A man finds you unattractive and is thinking of trading you up, that’s already there, he’s not going to change his mind because you’re playing hard to get. It’s going to make it easier for him to justify.

  178. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 8:28 am #

    @modernguy
    “What I’m saying is that the risks have been taken and the rewards have been won.”

    I got that from your “Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks.”

    That reward being that since past men built civilization (remember it wasn’t only for women’s benefit and with absolutely no help from women) and other men today work in dangerous fields all men deserve what they want regardless of their own work.

    I understand because it’s the feminists theory all men should be pleasing women for past mens crimes and other mens crimes, women should also hate men for past men’s cruelty/oppression, and all men are rapists because other men have raped.

    What I am saying is the one who took the risks is the one who is rewarded not others because they share the same genitals.

    What I’m also saying is that since you support others taking risks & everyone being rewarded because they share the same genitals the following quote makes no sense “all you have to do is go to a coal mine or an oil rig and relieve those men of their duties. If you really want equality it’s your obligation. If you don’t, then be what men want you to be.”

    With your logic since other women also work in dangerous fields women shouldn’t have to do their own work and are free of the obligation to please men by doing and being what men want.

    With your risks = rewards men deserve what they want because of past and other men & women are not obligated to please men because of past and other women.

    “I’m asking you what risks men should be taking to inspire your appreciation?”
    Answer is unnecessary to the men deserve what they want based on other mens work topic.

    “To the coat-tailing thing, I’m just saying that there should be a basic level of respect for masculinity, not necessarily that it deserves appreciation on account of the work of others.”

    Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks does not equal basic respect for masculinity.

    It equals men deserve what they want because they share the same genitals with past men and other men who have taken risks.

    Deserve what you want because of others work doesn’t equal basic respect.

    It equals self-entitlement (deserve what I want) because of your genitals.

    ” A level of respect by default. Even though this day-in-age there is precious little a man can do to demonstrate his natural masculinity. Because everything is already set up and nature has by-and-large been dominated. ”

    Respect is earned.

    Rights and being treated like a human being are the only things given by default.

    You are not talking about respect but men deserving what they want because they share genitals of past men/other men.

    Feeling like you deserve what you want based on what others have done has nothing to do with respect or appreciation.

    Men/Women don’t deserve what they want just because share the same genitals of what others have done.

    People are respected for themselves not because of the have the same genitals of other who have earned respect.

    “Beyond that I’m asking what a man can do that would inspire your appreciation? Is being a husband and father enough? Men want women who appreciate them, so I’m asking what it takes to get that nowadays?”

    Answers are unnecessary to the men deserve what they want based on other mens work topic.

  179. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 8:34 am #

    @modernguy
    “But treating him badly won’t forestall that! It will make him even more likely to do it! A man finds you unattractive and is thinking of trading you up, that’s already there, he’s not going to change his mind because you’re playing hard to get. It’s going to make it easier for him to justify.”

    How is not pumping up egos = treating him badly?

    Logic fail the not pumping ego isn’t done after a man thinks that it’s done so the man doesn’t reach that point.

    It’s not playing hard to get but just not pumping up his ego.

    He may have the I’ll settle because I can’t do better or the I like being with you mindset but ego pumping results in the I don’t have to settle or I like being with her better because I can do better mindset.

    Cut out the ego pumping and he may not become arrogant or reach that line of thinking.

    Remember Scenario #2?
    “Scenario #2 (imagined)
    Same fat guy & girl.

    He likes being with her.

    She ego pumps him.

    He becomes arrogant and on the side looks for prettier girls.

    He likes being with the prettier girl better.”

  180. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 8:43 am #

    @modernguy
    We all benefit from that, we all “ride on their coattails” to the point that most men don’t have to do that kind of life-threatening or back-breaking work anymore.

    We all ride on the coattails by using their inventions not by feeling we deserve what we want.

    Using the inventions to make our lives easier does not equal feeling you deserve what you want because you share

    One is coattailing by being rewarded the other is using the rewards.

    Benefiting from the inventions /= deserving what you want.

    So while we all benefit from the rewards it is not the same as everyone coattailing on those rewards to feel they deserve what they want because they share genitals.

    So how does everyone coattail on the rewards to feel they deserve what they want because of their genitals?

  181. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 8:48 am #

    “He becomes arrogant and on the side looks for prettier girls.

    He likes being with the prettier girl better.”

    That depends if he can get a prettier girl. If he can, and she treats him badly, or not as well as the less attractive girl, then it will be something to consider. Men like being treated well, which includes expressions of appreciation.

    You seem to be hung up that I said men deserve to be appreciated by women for the risks they’ve taken. I meant this in a general, archetypal sense. Like, instead of having the default attitude that men need to prove themselves constantly, women should have a general good impression of men, and that they deserve it. Maybe not individually but as a general thing. Women in general seem to have an exceedingly low opinion of men these days, Haley’s post being an example.

    As for individual cases, I’m asking you what it takes to earn your appreciation. So please don’t confuse my notions on what should generally be the attitudes between men and women with specific cases.

  182. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 8:57 am #

    @modernguy
    It’s not that he can but that he thinks he can.

    Hence the 2 scenarios #1 is real, #2 is imagined.

    However in both scenarios whether he actually can varies in #1 it’s more possible while #2 is more of a chance/fluke.

    “You seem to be hung up that I said men deserve to be appreciated by women for the risks they’ve taken. I meant this in a general, archetypal sense. Like, instead of having the default attitude that men need to prove themselves constantly, women should have a general good impression of men, and that they deserve it. Maybe not individually but as a general thing. Women in general seem to have an exceedingly low opinion of men these days, Haley’s post being an example. ”
    First you said the coat tailing meant a basic respect for masculinity.

    My response:
    Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks does not equal basic respect for masculinity.

    It equals men deserve what they want because they share the same genitals with past men and other men who have taken risks.

    Deserve what you want because of others work doesn’t equal basic respect.

    Respect is earned.

    Rights and being treated like a human being are the only things given by default.

    You are not talking about respect but men deserving what they want because they share genitals of past men/other men.

    Feeling like you deserve what you want based on what others have done has nothing to do with respect or appreciation.

    Men/Women don’t deserve what they want just because share the same genitals of what others have done.

    People are respected for themselves not because of the have the same genitals of other who have earned respect.

    Now you’re saying you said men deserve to be appreciated by women for the risks they’ve taken.

    My response
    What you put “Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks” does not equal deserve to be appreciated by women.

    It equals men deserve to be appreciated by women for what other men have done.

    No one deserves appreciation for what others have done because they share genitals.

    Appreciation is earned.

    You don’t get appreciation by default because of your genitals.

    To sum it up.

    Feeling like you deserve what you want based on what others have done has nothing to do with respect or appreciation.

    You don’t get respect/appreciation because of your genitals.

    Men don’t deserve what they want just or respect/appreciation as individuals because they share the same genitals of who have earned respect and appreciation.

  183. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 9:07 am #

    Ugh, you have some kind of mental disease. I understand you’re mad but you misunderstood what I said, repeating yourself a hundred times doesn’t change anything. Believe what you want and act accordingly.

  184. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 9:09 am #

    @modernguy
    Women should have a good impression of the men in the past who built civilization and other men today who risk their lives (policemen, military, firefighters…sorry coalminers/oil rigs don’t count to me).

    Women shouldn’t have a good impression of men generally & that men deserve it because they have the same genitals of past men & other men.

    Respect and appreciation is an individual case.

    Feeling you deserve what you want and that by default you deserve respect and to be appreciated is self entitlement.

    “Women in general seem to have an exceedingly low opinion of men these days, Haley’s post being an example.”
    Maybe people just have a low opinion on people who feel entitled to things that are earned (respect, appreciation) and that they deserve what they want because they have something in common with others who have earned those things.

    That low opinion is not a gender thing but a people thing.

    Most people don’t like self entitled people who feel entitled because of their genitals.

    If you are talking about a gender thing in general thanks to misgynony+ male rights activism (plenty of radicals sadly) & misandry+feminism each gender thinks lowly of the other in most cases.

    Haley’s post has nothing to do with a low opinion of men was just an exaggeration of ego pumping leading to destabilizing the relationship doused in some feminist bs of men not needing praise because they are in power.

  185. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 9:28 am #

    “Most people don’t like self entitled people who feel entitled because of their genitals.”

    Look, here’s my point in simple English: men should appreciate women for their feminine attributes and women should appreciate men for their masculine attributes.

    It behooves us to do this because they are complimentary and we are meant to come together as opposite genders. If you want to label this ‘being entitled for having genitals’ go ahead. Maybe my original point was poorly worded, I meant that men in general deserve respect from women and that over the course of history we have earned it. If you want to replace ‘we’ with ‘the archetype known as man’, fine. I’m not trying to take credit for what others have done. I am saying that over the course of history men have built themselves a good reputation, done themselves a credit, in general, and that women today act as if men are scum. I.e Haley’s post.

    In specific situations you can make a case for why any one individual deserves respect or appreciation and I was asking you what it would take to earn yours, which you apparently don’t know.

  186. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 9:32 am #

    @modernguy
    Quite funny how you feel men deserve the rewards of other mens risks and that by default:

    men deserve what they want in a woman

    respect for masculinity should be a default

    men should be respected & appreciated

    women should have a general good impression of men & that they deserve it

    But can’t see how being entitled because you share the same genitals can’t also lead to being entitled to negative things.

    With your logic
    Men also deserve the punishments of other mens oppression/cruelty and that by default:

    men should please all women for forgiveness

    fear for masculinity should be a default

    men should be feared & hated

    women should have a low opinion of men & that they deserve it

    Feeling entitled because you share the same genitals can be good or bad.

    Women should:

    respect & appreciate men in the past and other men today who risk their lives NOT all men

    have hate/hostility for oppression for men in the past and other men today who hurt/hate women NOT all men

    As for all men they should respect & appreciate them on an individual case based on his actions & character just like everyone else.

  187. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 9:34 am #

    @modernguy
    Ugh, you have some kind of mental disease. I understand you’re mad but you misunderstood what I said, repeating yourself a hundred times doesn’t change anything. Believe what you want and act accordingly.

    Mental disease? No.

    Mad? No

    Misunderstood?

    You stated ” Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks.”

    Where’s the misunderstanding?

    Men deserve what they want in a woman because of past men & other mens work since they share the same genitals but women aren’t freed of their obligation to please her man because of past women & other womens work but on their own work.

    Where’s the misunderstanding?

    1. Feeling like you deserve what you want based on what others have done has nothing to do with respect or appreciation.

    2. First you said you meant a basic respect for masculinity.

    Deserve what you want because of others work doesn’t equal basic respect.

    Respect is earned.

    People are respected for themselves not because of the have the same genitals of other who have earned respect.

    3.Then you said you meant men deserve to be appreciated by women for the risks they’ve taken.

    Appreciation is earned.

    Yes I’ll continue to believe men don’t deserve what they want in a woman or respect/appreciation as individuals because they share the same genitals of who have earned respect and appreciation.

    Even if not thinking a person deserves what they want in a partner, respect, or appreciation because of their genitals because of the work of others who have the same genitals make me a mentally ill, mad, and misunderstanding woman.

  188. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 9:45 am #

    @modernguy
    Though poorly worded you got the point across men deserve what they want in a woman, women are obligated to please men & be what they want and men deserve respect/appreciation because of past men and other men today.

    Women shouldn’t respect or appreciate masculine qualities but acknowledge them. Just as men should do with feminine qualities.

    Men & women should respect & appreciate the complementary qualities in their partner doing what you suggest =self-entitled princes and princesses and pedestals.

    “I meant that men in general deserve respect from women and that over the course of history we have earned it. If you want to replace ‘we’ with ‘the archetype known as man’, fine. I’m not trying to take credit for what others have done. I am saying that over the course of history men have built themselves a good reputation, done themselves a credit, in general”

    No those men in history deserve the respect/appreciation.

    By saying men deserve the respect/appreciation is taking credit.

    “that women today act as if men are scum. I.e Haley’s post.”

    Once again Haley’s post is about not pumping egos because it may lead to I can do better and feminist bs of men not needing praise because they are in power not thinking men are scum (misandry & feminism is that).

  189. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 9:48 am #

    “1. Feeling like you deserve what you want based on what others have done has nothing to do with respect or appreciation.”

    I meant this in general, you either can’t understand that, or you refuse to. Here’s a final example:

    Women in the past were supportive homemakers and dedicated mothers. I would argue that as a gender they deserve respect and appreciation for that (not because they have vaginas). These days women are obnoxious sluts, and men’s opinions of women in general are taking a nosedive. This has nothing to do with any particular person’s merit for respect and appreciation. Do_you_understand?

  190. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 9:53 am #

    @modernguy
    Women in the past were supportive homemakers and dedicated mothers. I would argue that as a gender they deserve respect and appreciation for that (not because they have vaginas). These days women are obnoxious sluts, and men’s opinions of women in general are taking a nosedive. This has nothing to do with any particular person’s merit for respect and appreciation. Do_you_understand?

    Do you understand as a gender men in the past deserved respect and appreciation for civilization NOT men today?

    These days as a gender men aren’t risking their lives for women, sole breadwinners, main providers, and building civilization it’s men as individuals who are.

    So general opinion is indifferent or misandristic based on feminism.

    Do you understand?

    Once again general opinion as a gender can go either way.

    Remember?
    “With your logic
    Men also deserve the punishments of other mens oppression/cruelty and that by default:

    men should please all women for forgiveness

    fear for masculinity should be a default

    men should be feared & hated

    women should have a low opinion of men & that they deserve it

    Feeling entitled because you share the same genitals can be good or bad.”

  191. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 9:55 am #

    Do you understand the following?
    Women should:

    respect & appreciate men in the past and other men today who risk their lives NOT all men

    have hate/hostility for oppression for men in the past and other men today who hurt/hate women NOT all men

    As for all men they should respect & appreciate them on an individual case based on his actions & character just like everyone else.

  192. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 9:56 am #

    “Do you understand as a gender men in the past deserved respect and appreciation for civilization NOT men today?

    These days as a gender men aren’t risking their lives for women, sole breadwinners, main providers, and building civilization it’s men as individuals who are.”

    Ok, so as I asked before, what would a man have to do in order for you to appreciate him?

  193. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 9:58 am #

    @modernguy
    Are you okay with men being punished with a bad general view for other mens wrongdoings/behaviors since women are punished with a bad general for other womens wrongdoings/behaviors?

    If you are okay with men being punished with a bad general view are you a feminist since that’s their theory?

    If you aren’t okay are you a feminist since they nitpick what supports them?

  194. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 10:02 am #

    “@modernguy
    Are you okay with men being punished with a bad general view for other mens wrongdoings/behaviors since women are punished with a bad general for other womens wrongdoings/behaviors?”

    But what are men doing now that’s so bad? Playing video games? What would you rather have them do? That’s where my whole argument was headed before before you took such offense at my suggestion that men in general have by and large done us all a service.

  195. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 10:05 am #

    @modernguy

    “Ok, so as I asked before, what would a man have to do in order for you to appreciate him?”
    Once again my answer is unnecessary to the men deserve what they want (also add in appreciation/respect) because of past & other mens work topic.

    This and other what would a man questions are irrelevant to the topic that people don’t deserve what they want or get by default what is earned because of their genitals.

    Do you understand as a gender men in the past deserved respect and appreciation for civilization NOT men today?

    It has nothing to do with these days as a gender men aren’t risking their lives for women, sole breadwinners, main providers, and building civilization it’s men as individuals who are.

    That was showing a logic failure in your deserving/getting what is earned by genitalia logic since to you
    women in the past were supportive homemakers and dedicated mothers. but these days women are obnoxious sluts, and men’s opinions of women in general are taking a nosedive.

    People are respected/appreciated for themselves they do not deserve it or what they want in a partner & others are obligated to follow these wants because of their genitals.

    Do you understand that?

  196. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 10:23 am #

    Udolpixie: ok good luck, being so stubborn and argumentative, you’ll need it.

  197. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 10:25 am #

    @modernguy
    “But what are men doing now that’s so bad?”

    Rape, murder, child molestation, assault? The same things women do.

    Either gender could deserve a negative general view because they share the same genitals as the offenders.

    “Playing video games? ”
    If they just do that why do they deserve respect, appreciation, and what they in a partner & women are obligated to be it?

    “What would you rather have them do? ”
    Realize that men don’t deserve respect, appreciation, and what they in a partner & women are obligated to be it just because they share the same genitals of past men and other men who have built civilization?

    Realize that they get appreciation/respect for themselves not their genitals?

    Realize that if the want respect/appreciation they should earn it since they are already coattailing on past men & other mens risks by using inventions and having a relatively safe society?

    Realize that men are respected & appreciated them on an individual case based on his actions & character just like everyone else?

    Realize that women shouldn’t respect or appreciate masculine qualities but acknowledge them? Just as men should do with feminine qualities.

    Realize that men’s masculine qualities are respected & appreciated by their partner not generally?

    “That’s where my whole argument was headed before before you took such offense at my suggestion that men in general have by and large done us all a service.”

    Didn’t take offense to the service because you didn’t suggest that.

    You suggested men deserve respect, appreciation, and what they in a partner & women are obligated to be it just because they share the same genitals of past men and other men who have built civilization.

    I took offense to this: “Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks.
    Like I said, it’s hard to see that now because everything has been built. If you think I’m being hysterical or a misogynist or an idiot, all you have to do is go to a coal mine or an oil rig and relieve those men of their duties. If you really want equality it’s your obligation. If you don’t, then be what men want you to be.”

    Those men in the past deserve respect/appreciation because of their work and everyone is rewarded from their risks by using their inventions and society.

    I also took offense to the logic failure that men get to coattail on others to be able to deserve what they want but women didn’t get to coattail on other women who do those dangerous jobs to be free from her obligation to please her man.

    You took offense to that unless the man is risking his life for women or working in the coal mines you don’t deserve what you want in women because you haven’t done the work.

    You took offense to people don’t deserve respect, appreciation, and what they want & others obligated to provide based on their genitalia.

  198. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 10:30 am #

    Bah, you keep repeating the same thing over and over and over and over. Ok I get it, you misunderstood me, fine. Besides realizing 100 things, what do you appreciate a man for? Like in practical terms? Is being a husband and father enough? What beyond that?

  199. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 10:30 am #

    @modernguy

    Good luck thinking you as a man deserve deserve respect, appreciation, and what they in a partner & women are obligated to be it just because they share the same genitals of past men and other men who have built civilization.

    When really those men in the past and other men deserve respect/appreciation because of their work.

    Plus the fact that you are already rewarded with the use of the inventions & a relatively safe society.

    Don’t complain when women think you as a man deserve to be hated & feared & made to follow womens whims as forgiveness because of past men & other mens actions.

    Yep I’m very stubborn & argumentative because people don’t deserve respect, appreciation, and what they want & others obligated to provide based on their genitalia.

  200. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 10:35 am #

    @modernguy
    Where’s the misunderstanding?

    You: ” Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks.”

    Me: Men deserve what they want in a woman because of past men & other mens work since they share the same genitals but women aren’t freed of their obligation to please her man because of past women & other womens work but on their own work.

    Where’s the misunderstanding?

    You meant respect?

    You meant appreciation?

    The past men who built civilization & other men who risked their lives should be respected/appreciated.

    People are respected/appreciated for themselves not because of the have the same genitals of other who have earned respect and appreciation.

  201. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 10:39 am #

    @modernguy

    What am I misunderstanding from men deserve deserve respect, appreciation, and what they in a partner & women are obligated to be it just because they share the same genitals of past men and other men who have built civilization?

    What am I misunderstanding that the male gender in general should be respected & appreciated not just the past men and other men who built civilization?

    Are you misunderstanding that saying men deserve based on past & other mens action could be a good (respect, appreciation, what they want in a partner) or bad (hate, fear, have to be controlled, seen as animals/monsters, should live to please women as forgiveness) thing?

  202. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 10:42 am #

    Mostly what I get from your ranting is that you have a strong affinity for the word “genitals”. Oh, and that you don’t want to come to any conclusion or consensus. You seem to very fired up, but you don’t seem to want to resolve anything.

  203. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 10:43 am #

    @modernguy
    Is it this confusion of not knowing what makes a man respected/appreciated that leads to your men deserve deserve respect, appreciation, and what they in a partner & women are obligated to be it just because they share the same genitals of past men and other men who have built civilization?

    Tons of confusion in modern dating lead to self entitlement to resolve the fact that men/women aren’t aware of what the other gender values.

  204. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 10:47 am #

    @modernguy
    I’m trying to resolve that:

    1. The past men who built civilization & other men who risked their lives should be respected/appreciated.

    2. People are respected/appreciated for themselves not because of the have the same genitals of other who have earned respect and appreciation.

    3. Your logic of saying men deserve based on past & other mens action could be either:
    good (respect, appreciation, what they want in a partner)
    bad (hate, fear, have to be controlled, seen as animals/monsters, should live to please women as forgiveness)

    4. How I misunderstood “Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks.”

    I got men deserve deserve respect, appreciation, and what they in a partner & women are obligated to be it just because they share the same genitals of past men and other men who have built civilization.

    I got that the male gender in general should be respected & appreciated not just the past men and other men who built civilization.

    What did I misunderstood?

    How does trying to resolve those = ranting?

  205. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 10:50 am #

    Where did you get fired up from people are respected/appreciated for themselves not because of the have the same genitals of other who have earned respect and appreciation?

    Where did you get fired up from general view of a gender and entitlement (deserve what they want, respect, appreciation, hatred, fear, have to be controlled) based on other members behavior can be a good or bad thing?

  206. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 10:52 am #

    Seems like you’re not trying to resolve that the general view of men shouldn’t be respect & appreciation by default but that past men & other men should be respected/appreciation.

    Also seems that men deserving what they want in a woman & woman being obligated to be it is also not on your resolve list.

  207. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 11:00 am #

    “Is it this confusion of not knowing what makes a man respected/appreciated that leads to your men deserve deserve respect, appreciation, and what they in a partner & women are obligated to be it just because they share the same genitals of past men and other men who have built civilization?”

    It would be easier to parse this stuff if you didn’t just mash the keyboard every time you feel the need to respond. Take some time to build a more concise response that someone would actually like (or just be able) to read.

    As to your question: I have a good intuition about what make women respect and appreciate men, I was interested in what your thoughts on it were.

  208. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 11:10 am #

    @modernguy
    Since your not confused what leads to you thinking men deserve deserve respect, appreciation, and what they in a partner because of past men and other men who have built civilization?

    Not being able to fill what your intuition says?

    Not wanting to fill it?

    How is it stubborn, argumentative, being fired up, mad, and mentally diseased to think that:

    The past men who built civilization & other men who risked their lives should be respected/appreciated.

    People are respected/appreciated for themselves not because of the have the same genitals of other who have earned respect and appreciation.

    Your logic of saying men deserve based on past & other mens action could be either:
    good (respect, appreciation, what they want in a partner)
    bad (hate, fear, have to be controlled, seen as animals/monsters, should live to please women as forgiveness)

    What did I misunderstand from “Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks.”?

    Was I wrong to think that meant men deserve deserve what they in a partner & women are obligated to be it just because of past men and other men who have built civilization?

    Was I wrong to think that meant the male gender in general should be respected & appreciated not just the past men and other men who built civilization?

    What did I misunderstood?”

  209. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 11:24 am #

    “Was I wrong to think that meant men deserve deserve what they in a partner & women are obligated to be it just because of past men and other men who have built civilization?”

    What am I saying? I’m saying that women should respect men for what they’ve done, and men should respect women for their traits – being caring, nurturing, intuitive etc, in a word “feminine”. Why are you so hung up on this? Are you insane? Men have been protective of women throughout our evolution, is that worth nothing? Women have played their role too, and they deserve recognition for it. Instead, women these days act like men as a gender are worthless. What I mean when I say that women have an obligation to be what men want is that they simply have an obligation to play their feminine role. And if they want to be something more, then go into the coal mines or oil rigs or factories and see what kind of work men do. It’s not all just sitting in a cozy office shuffling papers and writing reports, which is the kind of ‘work’ women seem to be so proud of doing these days, while they look down on “men”.

  210. recovering beta June 17, 2011 at 11:36 am #

    I think there is a functional problem. When individual women are unwilling to be complimentary with her man, or men in general, it is instructive of her attitudes about men. Very simply, it means she has little or no respect for men at all and is sitting in the judgement seat declaring she is superior, and is right to judge. She is stating that men don’t live up to her expectations.

    More importantly it indicates that said woman, or women, are not fit for relationships with men, and their sole goal is to use them in ways to further her agenda, merely pawns.

    This is the behavior of the proud and defiant, unwilling to contribute to a relationship, or anything other than herself.

    In other words. A woman who is unwilling or unable to see good in men, cannot be an effective partner and will sabotage, or at the very least manipulate, every relationship she’s involved in.

    Her attitude towards men is that they need to serve her, as this is their only value to her.

    This means that she considers men less than human.

    This attitude is vile. It is more than simply proud and defiant, but is malicious.

    This is a woman punishing men for some imagined wrong.

    This is the woman that destroys marriages on a whim and vindictively meets out her revenge against an imagined evil.

    This woman is incapable of love. She cannot be a partner or even a real friend.

    If a woman has this attitude, leave her, divorce her, avoid her, take legal action against her, and protect yourself from her. She has nothing to offer any man than grief.

  211. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 11:41 am #

    @modernguy
    I’m saying women should respect those men for what they’ve done NOT men for what others have done.

    How is that insane to respect those for what they did?

    Is it insane to respect the person for their actions not their gender?

    How is insane to say those men deserve respect but other men have to earn it through actions as well?

    “I’m saying that women should respect men for what they’ve done, and men should respect women for their traits – being caring, nurturing, intuitive etc, in a word “feminine”. Why are you so hung up on this? ”

    Because that leads to self-entitled princes and princesses as well as pedestals.

    Women shouldn’t respect or appreciate masculine qualities but acknowledge them.

    Men shouldn’t respect or appreciate feminine qualities but acknowledge them.

    Men & women should respect & appreciate the complementary qualities in their partner NOT all men & women.

    Respect/appreciate the qualities in a partner or those you have a relationship with (family/friends) because it adds to the relationship.

    As for the general view respect the person for their actions not their gender qualities.

    “Men have been protective of women throughout our evolution, is that worth nothing?”
    Nope women should respect those men NOT all men.

    It’s worth nothing to all men.

    It’s worth something to those men who have been protective.

    Respect the person for their actions not their gender.

    “Instead, women these days act like men as a gender are worthless. ”
    Misandry+feminism.

    Once again getting by on others actions can be negative.

    Men can either deserve respect for past & other mens actions or seen as worthless for past & other mens actions.

    “What I mean when I say that women have an obligation to be what men want is that they simply have an obligation to play their feminine role. And if they want to be something more, then go into the coal mines or oil rigs or factories and see what kind of work men do. It’s not all just sitting in a cozy office shuffling papers and writing reports, which is the kind of ‘work’ women seem to be so proud of doing these days, while they look down on “men”.”
    That’s the logic fail if men can coattail on others actions to be deserving tgen women can cooattail on others actions to be freed of this obligation

    Men get to be deserving based on others actions then women get to be freed of this obligation because there are women who do that work.

    If you want women to have to work dangerously to be freed of the obligation it only makes sense that men should risk their lives to be deserving of getting what they want.

    Illogical that men are deserving because of other men but women to be freed of this obligation have to do their own work since coattailing is okay.

  212. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 11:51 am #

    @recovering beta

    Great post.

    “This is a woman punishing men for some imagined wrong. ”
    You see the negative side of viewing men based on past & other mens action can be either:
    good (respect, appreciation, what they want in a partner)
    bad (hate, fear, have to be controlled, seen as animals/monsters, should live to please women as forgiveness).

    Though the wrongs aren’t imagined.

    Both genders have helped & hurt each other.

    Each gender should just respect/appreciate the men and women in the past for their actions.

    My solution to instilling a healthy attitude towards me & realistic expectations for men are:

    respecting & appreciating men in the past and other men today who risk their lives NOT all men

    having hate/hostility for oppression for men in the past and other men today who hurt/hate women NOT all men

    Using the respect/appreciation of certain men to base what you want & hatred of certain men to base what you do not want.

    Respect & appreciate or hate/be hostile to men on an individual case based on his actions & character just like everyone else.

    Women should not generalize men based on past actions because it could be favorable or unfavorable to men. Instead they should realize men are human beings capable of good & bad.

    What is your solution to women having a healthy attitude towards men & realistic expectations?

  213. modernguy June 17, 2011 at 11:58 am #

    “respecting & appreciating men in the past and other men today who risk their lives NOT all men”

    So what would you respect and appreciate an individual man for? The original discussion is with regards to a woman’s attitude towards her partner. Under what circumstances (if any) do you think a woman should show appreciation and respect for a man? What does he have to do?

  214. recovering beta June 17, 2011 at 12:18 pm #

    modernguy, you asked the following question:

    “So what would you respect and appreciate an individual man for? The original discussion is with regards to a woman’s attitude towards her partner. Under what circumstances (if any) do you think a woman should show appreciation and respect for a man? What does he have to do?”

    most men, i would argue, have done many measurably good things, while at the same time diplaying positive, personal, even, Godly traits. A human unwilling to acknowledge this should be shunned, ostracized, and isolated.

    This behavior need to be tolerated.

    any woman who believes that acting like a brat is not pulling her weight.

    women have bee sending the message that we, as men, don’t measure up to their standards. Don,t listen, you have nothing to prove to her and owe her anything. She has no right to demand that you cater to her demands which is in fact becoming her save. call her out on her sh*t, and let her know you aren’t playing her game by her rules anymore.

  215. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 12:19 pm #

    @modernguy
    I don’t have respect/appreciation based on gender.

    Especially the respect/appreciation you’re talking about of men deserving it because of past & other men. I just can’t follow deserving something you earn or deserving what you want because what you have between your legs matches what past men who earned it & other men who earn it have.

    I respect and appreciate individuals based on their character and actions. So what I appreciate/respect is gender neutral.

    Character for me is not harming/hurting others, honesty, loyalty, responsibility, and reliability.

    Actions for me is no unnecessary aggression (being a d*ck/b*tch), not being selfish, compassionate, hard working, dedication, and pursuit of self improvement (always learning from your mistakes & being a better you each year).

    Respect as a person /= respect as a man or woman for me.

    Respect/appreciation based on gender should be given if they are a partner or you have a relationship with them (family/friends).

    In a relationship is where respect/appreciation is given to an individual man for his masculinity.

    Men and women should show appreciation for their partners complementary qualities often. It can’t really be a timed thing- daily, weekly, etc.

    I think women should just show appreciation for their partners masculinity in circumstances that put the masculine qualities on display so that it doesn’t leave him feeling unappreciated for being a man.

  216. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 12:31 pm #

    @recovering beta
    Do you also think men should be given respect/appreciation for past men & other mens actions instead of past men & other men being given the respect/appreciation?

    I think feeling you deserve respect/appreciation because you share genitals as those who earned it shouldn’t be tolerated.

    Especially since what you’re entitled to can be good or bad as shown by the men are scum thinking.

    Being rewarded for others actions or being punished for others actions is not the way to go.

    “any woman who believes that acting like a brat is not pulling her weight.”
    Believes what?

    If you’re talking about men are scum that’s just the negative of entitlement based on others actions.

    Any woman who thinks that is acting like an idiot.

    Men who have done things to be appreciated/respected should be respected/appreciated NOT all men.

    Men who have done wrongs, oppressed should be thought of as scum NOT men are scum.

    “women have bee sending the message that we, as men, don’t measure up to their standards. Don,t listen, you have nothing to prove to her and owe her anything. She has no right to demand that you cater to her demands which is in fact becoming her save. call her out on her sh*t, and let her know you aren’t playing her game by her rules anymore.”

    Exactly men and women have no right to demand the other caters to their demands.

    Men and women have no right to demand that they deserve what they want in a partner, respect, or appreciation based on past men/women & other men/womens actions.

    However modernguy is asking what a man has to do to be respected/appreciated besides have a d*ck.

    Just like women should know what they have to do to be appreciated/respected besides own a vagina.

  217. recovering beta June 17, 2011 at 12:44 pm #

    udolipixie

    you keep asking or making reference to some genital attribution…

    “Do you also think men should be given respect/appreciation for past men & other mens actions instead of past men & other men being given the respect/appreciation?I think feeling you deserve respect/appreciation because you share genitals as those who earned it shouldn’t be tolerated.”

    I never made any such attribution you seem to be the only one trying to confuse the issue by making genital references.

    If you read what i said it says simply.

    most men have done many praiseworthy things and have many praiseworthy qualities, and while I am not implying perfection, I am saying that any persons failure to acknowledge the good qualities in others Is evil, or at the very least immature, and malicious.

    If you can’t look around at the men of today and see admirable actions and positive traits, you need to open your eyes.

  218. recovering beta June 17, 2011 at 12:49 pm #

    I think the real crux of the issue here is that men need to stop deferring to women for approval. You do not need a woman’s approval, and her disapproval means nothing either. We don’t owe them anything. They are not the leaders, they are not the arbiters of right and good. That is what Being a Man is.

  219. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 12:58 pm #

    @modernguy
    I’m asking if you agree with modernguy that men should be respected/appreciated for past men & other mens actions.

    I believe that the past men & other men who have done the deed deserve respect and appreciation.

    “I never made any such attribution you seem to be the only one trying to confuse the issue by making genital references.”
    Nope by modernguy stating men deserve what the what, respect, appreciation because men in the past and other men took risks there is a genital reference.

    The reference being that all men deserve this because they share what’s between their legs and not their own actions

    “If you read what i said it says simply.

    most men have done many praiseworthy things and have many praiseworthy qualities, and while I am not implying perfection, I am saying that any persons failure to acknowledge the good qualities in others Is evil, or at the very least immature, and malicious.

    If you can’t look around at the men of today and see admirable actions and positive traits, you need to open your eyes.”

    If you can’t see how entitlement based on others actions can’t be good or bad you need to open your eyes.

    You can acknowledge the good or the bad and state that all men are admirable or worthless.

    Feminism just like modernguys logic feel men deserve things based on past & other mens actions.

    The men who have done praiseworthy things & have praiseworthy qualities should be acknowledged and respected and appreciated not all men simply because the person who did those things & had those qualities was a man. Acknowledging the good.

    The men who oppressed, raped, assaulted, and are misogynists should be acknowledge and hated not all men simply because the person who did those things & had those qualities was a man. Acknowledging the bad.

    Women should acknowledge the good & bad in men but do not let that acknowledgement affect how they view men.

    They should respect & appreciate men as a person on an individual case based on their actions & character just like everyone else.

    They should respect & appreciate a man’s masculinity when they are in a relationship as it complements their femininity.

  220. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 1:04 pm #

    @recovering beta
    “I think the real crux of the issue here is that men need to stop deferring to women for approval. You do not need a woman’s approval, and her disapproval means nothing either. We don’t owe them anything. They are not the leaders, they are not the arbiters of right and good. That is what Being a Man is.”

    Since their approval/disapproval means nothing then a mans approval/disapproval means nothing.

    No reason to suit someone’s tastes want if your tastes are not suited as well.

    Since approval means nothing so should appreciation and therefore men have no reason to want their egos pumped.

    I say men because you seem to be in on the men are entitled to good or bad views/things based on other mens actions.

    So based on your action no man needs their ego pumped.

    See how entitlement based on others actions can be good or bad?

    Not all men are leaders & not all men are arbiters of right and good.

    Feeling entitled based on others actions and not your own is just what feminism is about.

  221. recovering beta June 17, 2011 at 1:27 pm #

    udolipixie you said,

    “I say men because you seem to be in on the men are entitled to good or bad views/things based on other mens actions.

    udolipixie you also said,

    “So based on your action no man needs their ego pumped.”

    Men don’t “need” to have our ego pumped. Nor do we need relationships, intimacy, affection, or sex. Far better than women men can function entirely on our own. However, if men and women are to have healthy relationships most of these things do become important.

    And that is the question is it not? It is women who seem to need relationships and demand all manner of compensation from men. But when women demonstrate an unwillingness to offer anything within the context of relationships than they are indicating they are unfit for relationships at all. They are demonstrating that they only person they care about is themselves. Men demonstrate that they care about others by sacrificing blood, sweat, and tears for those they care about. And you balk at a little ego stroking? What’s wrong with you? Do you want your relationship to fail? Do you hope all men will resent you? That seems like what you are trying to accomplish?

    udolipixie you also said,

    “See how entitlement based on others actions can be good or bad?”

    I’ve said it before, and you still don’t listen. If you can’t see good in men right now, you are blind. open your eyes!

    udolipixie you also said,

    “Not all men are leaders & not all men are arbiters of right and good.”

    True, but that aren’t are exceptional not common, many are in jail or politics.

    udolipixie you also said,

    “Feeling entitled based on others actions and not your own is just what feminism is about.”

    Women have demanding respect for over 100 yrs through various faces of the feminist movement. Ironically their demands for respect and entitlement are derived from the idea that men are essentially evil. This attitude has been steadily percolating throughout the last century and has become a powerful force in the past 50. This noxious and bitter hate aimed at all things masculine is every bit as evil as men are claimed to be.

    However, men were not then are not now, and never shall be anywhere near as bad as feminism has asserted.

  222. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 1:51 pm #

    udolipixie you said,

    “I say men because you seem to be in on the men are entitled to good or bad views/things based on other mens actions.

    udolipixie you also said,

    “So based on your action no man needs their ego pumped.”

    “Men don’t “need” to have our ego pumped. Nor do we need relationships, intimacy, affection, or sex. Far better than women men can function entirely on our own. However, if men and women are to have healthy relationships most of these things do become important.”

    Actually neither gender provides anything gender specific. Most things men/women provide can be gotten elsewhere.

    If more women were more logical rather than emotional they’d see that.

    And in a healthy relationship suiting what your partner approves/disapproves to an extent is important.

    Funny how you think men should think women’s approval and disapproval is nothing but that men need their ego pumped.

    So to you a healthy relationship is a woman’s approval/disapproval = nothing & ego stroking is important?

    Why is that what does ego stroking mean if a womans approval = nothing?

    Also ego stroking doesn’t have to be done since ego stroking is important to men and a mans approval/disapproval means nothing just like a woman’s approval/disapproval means nothing.

    “And that is the question is it not? It is women who seem to need relationships and demand all manner of compensation from men. But when women demonstrate an unwillingness to offer anything within the context of relationships than they are indicating they are unfit for relationships at all. They are demonstrating that they only person they care about is themselves. Men demonstrate that they care about others by sacrificing blood, sweat, and tears for those they care about. And you balk at a little ego stroking? What’s wrong with you? Do you want your relationship to fail? Do you hope all men will resent you? That seems like what you are trying to accomplish?”

    Ego stroking?
    Yes I balk it at since based on your logic men don’t need it since men think women’s approval and disapproval is nothing

    What’s wrong with me?
    Apparently it’s wrong to think all men shouldn’t be respected based on past men & others men actions/qualities but that those men should be.

    Do you want your relationship to fail?
    Apparently it matters not since my approval/disapproval is nothing. Once again men and women provide nothing gender specific except sex.

    Do you hope all men will resent you?
    Resent me because I don’t see it necessary to stroke the ego of those who view my approval/disapproval as nothing?
    Resent me because I think men who have done things to be appreciated/respected should be respected/appreciated NOT all men?
    I could care less if they resent me hopefully men don’t view ego stroking as necessary but suiting their womens tastes as nothing.

    Or think that they should be respected/appreciated like men who have done praiseworthy things & have praiseworthy qualities should be acknowledged and respected and appreciated simply because the person who did those things & had those qualities was a man.

    “I’ve said it before, and you still don’t listen. If you can’t see good in men right now, you are blind. open your eyes!”

    I see the good in men & I see the bad.

    What I don’t do is think all men deserve respect/appreciation based on good mens actions simply because they man.

    Men don’t deserve respect/appreciation based on good mens actions.

    The good men deserve the respect/appreciation.

    So what should I open my eyes to?

    That all men deserve what good men earned because they are a man?

    “However, men were not then are not now, and never shall be anywhere near as bad as feminism has asserted.”

    Doesn’t matter how bad men were when you apply entitlement based on others actions.

    The extent doesn’t matter just the action.

    Men built civilization? All men deserve respect/appreciation instead of the men who built it.

    Men protect women? All men deserve respect/appreciation instead of the men who protect.

    Men rape women? All men are rapists instead of the men who raped women.

    Men oppressed women? All men are evil/to be feared instead of the men who oppressed.

  223. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 2:12 pm #

    “That seems like what you are trying to accomplish?”

    Here’s what I’m trying to accomplish:

    That there are good men & bad men and all men shouldn’t be treated based on other mens qualities.

    That good men deserve respect/appreciation not all men.

    That bad men deserve to be feared/hated not all men

    If you got failing relationships & men resenting me for judging them based on their own character & actions not other good mens merits then the male ego problem is worse than I thought.

    If you got that from me not stroking the ego of men (which is showing approval) who think my approval/disapproval is nothing but want only approval because it boosts their ego then you have a skewed view of what is a relationship for both men and women not just men.

  224. recovering beta June 17, 2011 at 2:21 pm #

    udolipixie

    The reality that all people are imperfect having both good and bad traits is not in debate.

    But the simple reality is that all relationships require honoring one another. Anyone incapable of this isn’t fit to be in a relationship.

    If you can’t tell your significant other why you are with them, then you have no business being with them.

  225. udolipixie June 17, 2011 at 3:04 pm #

    @recovering beta
    “udolipixie

    “The reality that all people are imperfect having both good and bad traits is not in debate.”
    That’s true.

    However that was never in debate.

    What is in debate is the fact that modernguy believes that men deserve to be respected/appreciated simply for being men and not on their own merits because there were praiseworthy men

    My belief has nothing to do with imperfection but that praiseworthy men deserve to be respect/appreciated because of their merits not all men simply because they are men.

    Simply put men don’t deserve respect/appreciation based on other good mens actions only those good men deserve the respect/appreciation.

    “But the simple reality is that all relationships require honoring one another. Anyone incapable of this isn’t fit to be in a relationship.”
    Men who see a woman’s approval/disapproval as nothing isn’t capable of honoring her.

    When you see a woman’s approval/disapproval as nothing but wanting only her ego stroking (approval) because of your ego you’re incapable of honoring her or will honor her poorly.

    “If you can’t tell your significant other why you are with them, then you have no business being with them.”
    True.

    But not the topic your belief was that men should see a womens approval/disapproval as nothing but men require ego stroking (approval).

    If you see your significant others approval/disapproval as nothing you shouldn’t be with them.

  226. recovering beta June 17, 2011 at 7:18 pm #

    udolipixie

    Apparently you are not catching the distinction between personal human needs and mutually beneficial behaviors. I’ll try to clarify.

    I don’t need a woman to cook for me, but’s it’s nice when she does so. If she’s unwilling to do so, than that’s a bad sign. Not because I need her to cook, but she’s unwilling to contribute.

    The simple reality is that a woman’s unwillingness to encourage and build up men communicates that she’s immature and unwise not that most men don’t deserve it.

    This is because the purpose of building each other up is the same as teaching, to help us grow and mature. If all we do is accuse each other of our sins, we all become stunted.

    That is why it is unwise and of low character to tear down or refuse to build up. This seems very simple and you either keep missing the point, or deliberately obfuscate the point.

    As for your assertion about modernguy’s argument. It has no bearing on anything I have said. Nor is it The central thrust of this post, so I don’t know why you’ve claimed that as the issue that’s been in contention.

  227. udolipixie June 18, 2011 at 4:52 am #

    @recoveringbeta
    I do catch the distinction between personal human needs and mutually beneficial behaviors however I don’t think those behaviors csn apply in a relationship where men see a womans approval/disapproval as nothing.

    Another simple reality is that by seeing a woman’s approval/disapproval the woman has no need to encourage or build up a man as her actions will be seen as nothing but ego boosting.

    It’s not immature or unwise but sensible since her approval is nothing and building up & encouraging is a sign of pproval it means nothing but ego boosting since the man doesn’t care for her approval just any approval.

    How will the man be building up the woman if her approval/disapproval is nothing?

    I’m not obfuscating the point but just relaying that this point cannot apply in a relationship where a man regards a womans approvl/disapproval as nothing as you suggest men to do.

    The only way that point works is if men seek a womans approval and evade her disapproval & women seek a mans approval & evade her disapproval.

    As for modernguy’s argument I was merely asking if you agree that men should be respected/appreciated for past men & other mens actions instead of their own. It had nothing to do with what you said I was just seeing if you were a believer of that argument. Are you?

    it The central thrust of this post, so I don’t know why you’ve claimed that as the issue that’s been in contention.

  228. modernguy June 18, 2011 at 4:51 pm #

    Lol. I didn’t even say what udolipixie thinks I said. Or at least my meaning was not what she took it to be. And she just keeps pounding it into the polkadot backdrop on this page again and again. Posting it over and over again doesn’t make you look smart or create an argument where there was none udolipixie. Seriously, what’s your problem?

  229. udolipixie June 18, 2011 at 6:12 pm #

    Yes you did:
    “Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks.”

    I told you that was coattailing that men did not deserve what they wanted in a woman based on the fact that past men & other men took risks and built civilization.

    I stated that logically men who took the risks/built civilization deserved what they wanted not all men.

    You admitted that it was coattailing

    “As to riding on the coattails of other men’s hard work, in a way it is, and women have not done anything close to the kind of civilization building work that men have done. ”

    You tried to state that you meant respect then you said you meant appreciation.

    My response was that respect/appreciation is earned no one deserves respect/appreciation for what others have done because they are the same gender.

    My problem is that men don’t deserve what they want or respect/appreciation as individuals because men in the past & other men earned respect and appreciation.

    Those past men & other men get the respect/appreciation because they earned it not all men get the reward by default simply because they are a man.

  230. udolipixie June 18, 2011 at 6:23 pm #

    @modernguy
    So you don’t think that men deserve should be respected/appreciated for past men & other mens actions instead of their own.?

    Do you think women should respect/appreciate the men who built civilization, respect/appreciate the men who risk their lives to serve society (policemen, military men, firemen), hate the men who are misogynists, and give respect/appreciation to men today who earned it based on their character & actions?

  231. Porky D June 20, 2011 at 5:25 pm #

    Good god, i couldn’t even make it past the first paragraph. You have got a really twisted view of the world, please seek professional help.

  232. modernguy June 21, 2011 at 10:36 am #

    udolipixie: you did not comprehend my meaning.

  233. udolipixie June 22, 2011 at 9:44 am #

    @modernguy
    So what did you mean by “Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks”?

    Odd how you keep repeating I misunderstood but never state what you meant.

    You stated that already and I asked multiple times what did I misunderstand.

    Remember?
    “What did I misunderstand from “Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks.”?

    Was I wrong to think that meant men deserve deserve what they in a partner & women are obligated to be it just because of past men and other men who have built civilization?

    Was I wrong to think that meant the male gender in general should be respected & appreciated not just the past men and other men who built civilization?”

    ” How I misunderstood “Men deserve what they want in a woman because we risked everything for it. There is no double standard because men have put their lives on the line for women. It’s a woman’s obligation to please her man because men have taken all the risks.”

    I got men deserve deserve respect, appreciation, and what they in a partner & women are obligated to be it just because they share the same genitals of past men and other men who have built civilization.

    I got that the male gender in general should be respected & appreciated not just the past men and other men who built civilization.”

    “”You meant appreciation?

    The past men who built civilization & other men who risked their lives should be respected/appreciated.

    People are respected/appreciated for themselves not because of the have the same genitals of other who have earned respect and appreciation.”

    “What am I misunderstanding from men deserve deserve respect, appreciation, and what they in a partner & women are obligated to be it just because they share the same genitals of past men and other men who have built civilization?

    What am I misunderstanding that the male gender in general should be respected & appreciated not just the past men and other men who built civilization?

    Are you misunderstanding that saying men deserve based on past & other mens action could be a good (respect, appreciation, what they want in a partner) or bad (hate, fear, have to be controlled, seen as animals”

  234. Aunt Haley June 22, 2011 at 10:10 am #

    I go out of town and come back to find people rehashing the same arguments for five days.

    COMMENTS CLOSED.

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