This is quite possibly the greatest article Boundless has ever published.
In this article, author Joshua Rogers describes how he gave up aspirations to have an attractive, non-needy, intelligent, and spiritually mature wife who was also fun to be around, and instead learned how to love a “real woman.”***
I really wanted to quote basically the whole thing, but I’ve listed the money quotes below. In the article, they appear beneath the sub-headline Are You Man Enough?.
To those single guys out there who are trying to find the ideal woman, do the world a favor and give up. You’re not the ideal man — not anywhere close. And you would never get married if women held you to the same standard you apply to them.
But maybe you insist that you’re not going to settle for a woman who’s not everything you’re hoping for in a wife. Settle? Whatever the circumstances, believe me, she will be the one who settles for you and all your deficits. And until you realize this — through humbling circumstances or otherwise — maybe you should take a break from dating for a while and spend some time asking God to make you man enough to love a real woman.
This is the Boundless mentality in a nutshell: (a) that men are the misguided ones, clinging to unrealistic standards and depriving worthy women everywhere of husbands, (b) that men will never equal women in moral worth because men are just too stupid, and (c) that having high standards is a spiritual failing and men must seek reprogramming from God to make them be attracted to the women around them.
Meanwhile, women are Daughters of the King who deserve to be loved for who they are, not what dress size they wear (or whatever other measuring stick is being held up to them).
It’s a good thing women are so gracious as to marry men!
***Not that Rogers ultimately deigned to marry a woman who failed to meet his standards for beauty, intelligence, and spiritual maturity. In another article (which reads like a clinic in how to remain an involuntary bachelor for life, complete with kissing dating goodbye, beta orbiting, and scaring a girl off by talking about marriage on the first date), he describes his then-future bride thusly:
She was bright, attractive, fiercely devoted to Christ, and – in light of my recent failings – I thought she was far too good of a woman to be spending time with me.
Standards for me, but not for thee!
Haley's Halo 
Nothing lets a wife know that she’s cherished like her husband not being able to honestly tell her that he thinks she’s hot.
It’s hard for women to understand, but the propensity that leads to this sort of masochistic self sacrifice is the same one that makes men good soldiers and good family man, it’s the willingness to sacrifice for something or someone else. You could argue that the right thing for a woman to do in this situation is not gag in disgust but shut up and subscribe to the same standards herself.
Why sure, I’m man enough to marry a woman that I’m not attracted to, with a borish personality, questionable commitment to God, and then proceed to spend my life pretending that I’m not good enough for her. All for no reason at all, except for the sake of “getting married,” which the Bible states clearly isn’t a model for everyone and is best avoided.
Good Lord, you might as well ask a man to sit on the floor so a fat woman can stand on his balls 12 hours a day for the rest of his life. MAN UP AND DO IT!
No wonder so many Christians get divorced, with advice like this who can make sense of life?
There might be a benefit to articles like these, they help me feel at least an ounce of compassion for men who I’d otherwise dismiss as part of a class of manhood that isn’t really engaged in reality and is thus dangerous to my life. Men who fall in this catagory are so weak minded that I can’t be around them for fear of being infected with their delusions. I feel for these guys, but only a little bit, and the article helps me feel compassion. These men aren’t evil, they are just pawns in the enemy’s plan to turn God’s perscribed order upside down.
@Austin: Thank you for posting that. It absolutely drives me crazy when Christian commentators make men out to be stupid apes that have to be kept in a perpetual state of humility and guilt so they never try to take back the power in the relationship. I can’t stand it.
I’d answer Rogers’s questions “Are You Man Enough?” by saying that I no longer care. I’m not going to play a game in which I’m automatically the loser because I, as a man, can never and would never be ‘godly’ enough to meet the needs of a real woman. If those are the expectations, the rules of the game, then I have no interest in playing. And I am man enough to deal with the consequences of being single. It’s not a tragedy, but a triumph.
Unbelievable. It’s as if these men have never met an attractive, successful, thoughtful Christian man. If they had, they’d understand why so many of them find that what is currently offered to them in Christendom as an option to singleness rationally warrants more singleness.
I’m not sure what this means, “loving a real woman.” On the one hand, it might mean settling for someone who doesn’t make you walk on sunshine, which would definitely be a real mistake. But, more positively, it might mean understanding that you are not going to find a girl who is just like a boy, only with breasts, which is what a lot of men seem to have in mind. If you are going to get married, it will be to someone who isn’t particularly rational or mature, as men define those qualities, and who doesn’t feel the same way you do about work, or money, or sex, or even God.
“Real woman” is usually a euphemism for “fat” (excuse me, I mean “curvy.”) Rogers seems to have expanded the definition to include not merely physical unattractiveness, but neediness, stupidity, spiritual immaturity, and a boring personality.
Hermes–
“Fat” does not exist in this dojo. We prefer to call it “a little extra.”
@Aunt Haley – no no no, there’s a whole spectrum.
Stick – Rail thin – Athletic – Feminine – Curvy – Extra Curvy – Whale
With guys, you can find someone who likes any of those. And a vast majority will do any of the middle 5.
So basically, give up looking for your ideal because it’s impossible and you’ll never find it, and instead do everything you can to become the ideal for someone else, personal preferences be damned.
@ y81
With all due respect, no man describes a good catch as a “boy with breasts”, let alone an ideal one. I already have male friends – I’m not looking to marry one.
Well, actually, no,
This article is really just criticizing men who have an overblown sense of entitlement — and, let’s face it, like it or not, many of them do. If you’re an average guy who expects to be able to have sex with gorgeous, hot babes then yes, you have an overblown sense of entitlement and a red-pill wakeup call is in order.
Men who lack an unrealistic idea of the type of woman they’re able to pull, or who feel wronged by society because they are unable to obtain a gorgeous girlfriend are bound to be single forever.
There are also many women with this problem. Women with overblown senses of entitlement deserve equal criticism, and will have equal trouble finding a mate.
However, this overblown sense of entitlement is not something unique to one gender or the other. Men and women are equally prone to overentitlement and, for the most part, the entire phenomenon of “WAh, I just can’t seem to find a boyfriend/girlfriend!” attributable to overentitlement.
Whether you are male or female, it is absolutely critical to have a realistic picture of what your SMV is truly worth.
If men ever want to have a relationship, they might have to come to terms with the fact that they will never be able to date that slender, sexy 25-year-old hottie. For many men, that frumpy obese 45-year-old will be the best they can possibly do. If they ever hope to find a relationship, they are going to have to come to terms with that. Crying about the “unfairness of it!” and hating women because you’re aiming for something that’s unrealistic doesn’t really make a lot of sense. The world does not owe you an attractive woman.
By the same token, if women ever want a relationship, they might have to come to terms with the fact that they’ll never be able to date that 6-foot-tall, square-jawed attorney earning $200k a year. For many women, that overweight balding short guy with a nondescript job will be the best they can possibly do, If they ever want a relationship, they are going to have to come to terms with that. Crying because six-foot-tall lawyers don’t want you doesn’t make sense, because the world doesn’t owe you a six-foot-tall lawyer.
Basically, bottom line – you really need a realistic picture of what you’re able to buy with your SMV buck, or you’re going to find yourself alone.
The world does not owe you an attractive partner.
You earn attractive partners by being attractive enough yourself.
JJK,
A lot of that is true, except that most of those over-entitled girls can easily get sex with a man who is out of their league. It’s just sex, which for them may not mean much other than short-term bragging rights, but it’s a step up over what over-entitled men can get.
Great blog, important topics here and great discussions!
When Haley takes ’em to the woodshed, she really kicks their ass.
I continue to be amazed at how self-loathing is held out as a Christian value. Also saw a great quote recently, “telling most church guys to be chaste is like telling the poor to be humble.”
It’s hopeless for the church in terms of singles.
The attractive men have left in droves and all that remain are emasculated betas that are futher brainwashed to be feminine.
The really sad part is that this is all so fixable. Teach the men to men and workout and tell the women to go on paleo diet and work bubbly girl game.
Women get too hung up on their face not being pretty enough. Most young women have a pretty enough face. It’s the weight that is the deal breaker. Slim = Attractive for the greater betas that should be their husbands. I think that might be one of the issues is that even if they lose weight it won’t be enough to be hot and attract the alpha so they just say screw this.
I’m beginning to think the only solution to this problem for the church to become revelant is for little packs of guys that dismissed all the churchian practices and institutions and just banded together to form a decentralized new Christian church. The Christianese culture of subverting everything that is remotely masculine and stupid random non-sensical shaming would not be tolerated. The main requirement is to not be a magina. I can’t imagine women in mass leaving the church since it’s built for basically them not.
Are you friggin’ kidding me? You really think there is an epidemic in the church of men aiming for a “slender, sexy 25-year-old hottie” but who are really in the league of a frumpy obese 45-year-old? Most men in the church want to get married in their twenties. Are you saying they should settle for 45-year-olds, women who will never have children?
Most men are realistically aiming within their own league. It’s women’s expectations that have become inflated by female empowerment and financial independence. What women fail to understand is that a much greater percentage of the female population is sexually desirable to men, than the percentage of the male population that is sexually desirable to women. To an average guy, probably 50% of non-overweight, non-horribly-acne-scarred nor otherwise grossly disfigured 25 year old women are at least somewhat attractive. (Yes, you did say slender, and that’s asking a lot in today’s obesity climate, but it shouldn’t be.) It’s women who are incapable of even noticing 90% of the opposite sex.
Male 6’s in the church aren’t holding out for “gorgeous, hot babes.” They’re aiming for the female 6’s… who are in turn holding out for the shaggy-haired, guitar-strumming youth group leader (i.e., the male church 9) until they’re 30.
Haley,
That’s a well-established principle at Boundless, hearkening back to Michael Lawrence’s two-part article, “I’m Just Not Attracted to Her”:
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001523.cfm
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001528.cfm
After trotting out the common modern fallacy that standards of beauty vary drastically across cultures and are a fully malleable function of culture, Lawrence mentions that all the women he dated, including his wife, were brunettes between 5’2″ and 5’6″–but that’s OK, because “all it was” was a preference.
Incidentally, the thesis of the article is that men have both the ability and the moral obligation, through sheer force of will, to become attracted to physically unattractive women and marry them.
Hermes–
No one can pray away his lack of attraction to chubbiness. I’m convinced that that is what is keeping a lot of otherwise high-quality church girls from getting dates. My brother once said that he knew many girls who were letting 15 pounds stand between them and romantic attraction from men.
JJK–
It’s true that both men and women need to adjust their standards to reality, but men are more willing to do that at a younger age than women. How many plainly average men, once removed from college, are seriously holding out for a super hot babe and refusing to accept affection from more average-looking women? But how many women do you know who “just can’t find someone decent” even though they have guys in their friend circle who would snap up the opportunity if presented?
That’s true. I think the ratio in my church of dateable girls to girls who would be dateable if they dropped 15 pounds is about 1:2. And Boundless, along with countless other parachurch organizations and Christian “leaders,” is pushing men to perform the impossible task of becoming attracted to overweight women, rather than pushing the women to perform the entirely possible task of losing 15 pounds.
With all Haley’s posts one thing becomes blindingly clear – most people need to find another church. Seriously. Not all churches are dens of beta-tood and celibacy. Just look around knee height at our church. Lots of marriage. Lots of babies. I’m guessing a lot of sex going on as well. On the other hand, we go to a church in Alabama where the pastor likes football, the assistant pastor has a magnificent beard, and the men hang around after Bible study talking about booze and machinery.
“To those single guys out there who are trying to find the ideal woman, do the world a favor and give up. You’re not the ideal man — not anywhere close. And you would never get married if women held you to the same standard you apply to them.”
So according to this my choices are to not get married…and be happy, or get married to some substandard obese cum dumpster woman who will make me not happy and rob me of my wealth when she is not haaaaaaaaaaaapy.
Also most women would improve their looks by just dropping weight. Stop eating emotionally…food is not going to do anything but make your value plummet.
“On the other hand, we go to a church in Alabama where the pastor likes football, the assistant pastor has a magnificent beard, and the men hang around after Bible study talking about booze and machinery.”
Tell me about this magnificent church of alphadom. It sounds so wonderful. Men that like football, OH WOW. Beards, so manly. Booze and machinery, most alpha of topics.
Your church just sounds like it’s populated by rednecks. It does nothing to tell me about it’s inner character.
The more important question is who leads this place? Do the men act like little supplicating puppy dogs that have whipped by their wifes?
Seriously, I have no idea about the South. Maybe they hold more traditional values and it’s not just a cultural marxist cesspool. However, I still think that a lot of men probably irriate and annoy their women with beta behavior even down there.
Wow, overweight church girls. That is NOT a problem here in New York.
This article is really just criticizing men who have an overblown sense of entitlement — and, let’s face it, like it or not, many of them do. If you’re an average guy who expects to be able to have sex with gorgeous, hot babes then yes, you have an overblown sense of entitlement and a red-pill wakeup call is in order.
See the problem with your little theory is called “reality”. In “reality”, the woman is the one that gets to reject men for dating/sex. In that scary place, men receive rather immediate feed back if they attempt to date someone of their sex rank… ah… I meant ABOVE their sex rank because a woman wouldn’t reject an equal, right? I mean I’ve heard woman just want to be “equal” so no way would a six woman reject a six man, am I right?
Since men “get to” initiate and “get to” be rejected, men get immediate and rather savage feedback. On the other hand, women can one-night-stand way out of their league. With men they have no hope whatsoever of nailing down. So no, men and women are NOT the same on this. For obvious reasons. So shut up.
We would expect, in fact, at all time s and in all places for WOMEN to have a too high opinion of themselves and men to have a too low. It is built into basic biology.
Young women start at near peak value.
Young men start at near their lowest value.
AND young men are forced to initiate.
AND are culture blows up female ego.
So yeah, the above poster is “kinda wrong”.
” Men and women are equally prone to overentitlement”
This is simply not a true statement.
Hermes–
rather than pushing the women to perform the entirely possible task of losing 15 pounds.
See, to YOU it’s “entirely possible,” but usually when you bring up the topic of losing weight to women, they will insist that “this is my build” and/or “nothing works.” Or, they freely admit that they’d rather eat what they like than deny themselves in order to
win a manbe thinner. I have heard many women say the latter.Ultimately, those women prefer the company of cake to the company of men.
Sorry, men. You have lost to cake. Please don’t take it personally.
whatever–
Your charm is winning me over.
“Or, they freely admit that they’d rather eat what they like than deny themselves in order to win a man be thinner. I have heard many women say the latter.”
That’s simply because the men that they interact with on a normal basis aren’t worth the effort. We really can’t expect women to change this culture, guys will have to up the alpha to as high it can possibly go for each individual to get the women to follow. It’s up to the men to defy the leadership and become more indivdual and masculine. If the women won’t even try to make themselves attractive when the incentive is there, well there is always cats.
Another gem. Thanks, Haley; you seriously made my day. I know I’ve probably said this before, but it bears repeating. :)
whatever’s comment above is a good illustration of what I meant in my first comment, since he is basically complaining about characteristics that are inherent in the nature of girls. You know what? That’s the way girls are. If you don’t like it, you will have to start dating boys. Then you will not have to deal with “immediate and savage feedback” from the creatures who apparently inspire such resentment.
My church, the handful of hotties surround themselves with a phalanx of funky old singles dudes. I can’t quite figure out the purpose. The funky perma-single dudes have absolutely no chance. And they suck all the romantic oxygen out of the room for the younger studs to spit game with. I can’t understand why the ladies keep them around. Maybe they want to date outside the church and use funky oldies as deterrent to would-be church suitors? Maybe they feel guilty about blowing these guys out for real?
I definitely agree with the fat-is-ok cultural problem at church. On the one hand, church should be accepting to all. On the other hand, when do the leaders need to man up and preach some real healthy living?
And to get really pointed about it, a fatty out “Evangalizing” or “Witnessing” is pointless. Fatness skeeeers people. Unless you are building a church of fatties.
“For many men, that frumpy obese 45-year-old will be the best they can possibly do.”
— JJK
By that judgment, there exists men who cannot begin to attract any woman they could even pretend to want, even with the full cognizance of their lowly SMV. For these unfortunate souls; beer, football, and surreptitious use of pornography would be the best they can possibly do.
Can such a man know hope?
“Your church just sounds like it’s populated by rednecks.”
— FuriousFerret
Do not underestimate Rednecks. This nation was built by such. It certainly wasn’t built by liberal intellectuals. Please also understand that there is a difference between a hard-working and hard-praying Redneck and a low-class peckerwood or “White Trash”.
“The funky perma-single dudes have absolutely no chance. And they suck all the romantic oxygen out of the room for the younger studs to spit game with.” –RGIII
You’d think girls in that atmosphere would welcome competent game by eligible “younger studs”.