Do people even want to date anymore?

3 Oct

By “date” I mean “want to meet someone of the opposite sex for a potential romantic relationship”.

Obviously, I can only speak anecdotally, but I feel like there’s this weird lethargy among singles.  Each side CLAIMS to want to date, but there’s like zero sexual charge in any co-ed interactions.  Guy are terrified of contradicting a woman or telling her anything, while women wander around cluelessly, waiting for Some Guy to come along and sweep them off their feet.  Or, they try to take matters into their own hands and get burned by a bunch of guys who don’t actually want them.  Then they go on Facebook and complain that men are shallow and don’t realize that the confident, beautiful, successful women already in their lives have A Lot To Offer.

I mean, I don’t roll with a club crowd, and maybe that’s where all of these Horny Singles stories come from, but in day-to-day interactions, young guys just seem weirdly uninterested in women.  I can only imagine that they go home every night, having talked to zero women during the day, and fry their brains with Teh Pr0n…but how does a decade or two of doing this help ANYONE?

It’s impossible to eliminate all risk in any human interactions, especially with dating, but I feel like that’s what the current generation of singles is trying to do.  No one wants to ask for a date until they’re ABSOLUTELY SURE that the other person will ABSOLUTELY say yes…but then people want to wait for like five years and attempt cohabitation to be ABSOLUTELY SURE that ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING is EXACTLY to their liking before even THINKING about marriage.  (Except that Athol Kay wouldn’t have a business if premarital sexual activity was a perfect predictor of marital sexual activity.)  But without risk, there can be no excitement or real romance to anything.  No girl wants to find out that the guy who asked her out first polled five of her closest friends for assurance that there was zero possibility she would say no.

I don’t know, maybe in different social strata, the patterns are different.  But as far as I can tell, the college-educated set just don’t seem all that interested in making real connections.

 

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322 Responses to “Do people even want to date anymore?”

  1. Toz October 3, 2013 at 1:00 pm #

    You’re witnessing the herbivore phenomenon from Japan coming to America. Wussify men and “strengthen” women and that’s what you get.

  2. MathGuy October 3, 2013 at 1:03 pm #

    Speaking as a slightly older guy:

    It’s impossible to eliminate all risk in any human interactions, especially with dating, but I feel like that’s what the current generation of singles is trying to do.

    Risk has two components: odds and cost. If something is very likely to go wrong but doesn’t cost much (say, being the loser in a six person game of Monopoly) then we don’t worry about it. If something is very likely to go wrong and can have a lot of cost we tend to avoid it.

    So, typical guy without something “fabulous” about him considers approaching a woman.
    Greater than 50% chance of being shot down. Let’s assign that a $10 cost (cover to the bar): so the risk is now $5.

    Let’s then add a 10% chance of being judged creepy and her telling a few friends about it. That’s multiple girls in the bar so call it $100 cost so the risk is increased by $10 to $15.

    Let’s then add he has a 1% chance of being “so creepy we must warn stranger”. Facebook is forever so we’ll call that $10,000+. Minimum risk $100+ to a minimum risk of $115.

    So, the typical 20 something guy arguably is placing a $115+ just by approaching a girl.

    Internet porn is free and the biggest risk is not getting off…let’s say that’s 99% of the time. Let’s also say that takes 30 minutes and they guy can work for $20/hr. So the risk times the time cost is .99 * $20…so, assuming porn only works 1 time out of 100 for a guy making $40k his risk is $20.

    Hmmm, bet $115 or $20. Which would you do?

    Want guys to approach more…teach HS girls not to do nuclear shutdowns and work to return “creepy” to meaning “might be dangerous” instead of “guy I don’t like who had the nerve to talk to me.”

  3. The Man Who Was . . . October 3, 2013 at 3:08 pm #

    1. Pornography reducing motivation. Check.
    2. Upper middle class men feminized into severe betatude. Check.

  4. The Man Who Was . . . October 3, 2013 at 3:13 pm #

    Lower class men haven’t been influenced by feminist conditioning, so yeah they’re still pretty aggressively pursuing women. However, most of the actual sex seems to involve the more attractive men. Lower class women, unlike their more coldblooded and rational sisters in the upper middle class, have given full rein to their hypergamy. Pornography has also encouraged the less attractive men in that demographic to become dropouts. It’s all sorts of screwed up.

  5. RMM October 3, 2013 at 5:43 pm #

    Motivation is a funny thing. Saying that pornography (or video games, another common punching bag) reduces the motivation to date misses one important bit: reduces the motivation to date… the currently available women.

    Maybe one should wonder why the girls aren’t appealing enough to get the beta boys off the porn and the controllers, and to alpha-up and date them.

  6. Frank Wunder October 3, 2013 at 5:44 pm #

    If I may be so cynical…

    As a man I just don’t have it in me to want to deal with all of the factors that face me even if it’s just date, thing such as where do I stand on what issues, where do I go church, what denomination do I belong to or support and not support, what if I drink or smoke or like R-Rated movies? All of these things are just waiting to be dealt with when even dating another Christians. It would seem that dating a secular person would be easier, but the same questions with different wording are there, waiting to be answered.

    It’s intellectual baggage that we’re conditioned to have and carry with us and throw upon others. Sometimes I do it without even thinking about it.

    And all of this plays into the choices that we have to make and the power we give others to either choose or reject based on all of the factors that they are holding for themselves.

    Simply and cynically put: I’m under no moral obligation to have to date someone much less enter into a relationship with them and for me it’s easier to be single and celibate. The only consequences I have to deal with are ones of my own choosing.

    I just don’t care anymore and rather than blaming everyone else, I’ll blame myself for thinking too much about the issue and arriving at the conclusion that to be single is simply the best choice for me. And I accept the consequences.

  7. Mike October 3, 2013 at 6:35 pm #

    http://www.ted.com/talks/zimchallenge.html

  8. The Man Who Was . . . October 3, 2013 at 7:38 pm #

    Maybe one should wonder why the girls aren’t appealing enough to get the beta boys off the porn and the controllers

    It is unfair for real life women to have to compete with porn stars. I don’t actually think video games are keeping men from asking women out.

  9. RMM October 3, 2013 at 8:47 pm #

    >It is unfair for real life women to have to compete with porn stars

    They don’t have to compete, and are in fact not competing. No more than guys have to compete with Mr. Grey or the Sparkly Vamipres. If the guys would rather be on their own and jack off to a video of some other female he can never touch being done by a guy other than himself, then it’s clear that the women that guy has met add little of value to his life – definitely not enough to move up from the vouyeristic jacking off.

    Moreover, the whole “unattainable porn start” is passé. In the age of the internet, the porn “stars” go from the old school overplastified woman to the, sometimes literally, next door girl with a webcam – all of which have sizeable audiences and move considerable amounts of money. Look at the proliferation of amateur “webcam girls”. In terms of what they would have to “compete” with, if you accept that premise, it ranges from the unattainable to the downright average and below. There’s nothing unfair there, no more than it’s ever been and they were “competing” in the “real world”.

    And finally, the implied assumption is that men only worry about sex. That somehow if men can masturbate looking at a sexy woman then there’s nothing a “real” woman can do other than try to oversex herself over the porn star – and that’s not fair! The reality is that men are human beings too, and are more complex that the implied caricature. If ALL a woman can offer to a man is to sex herself like a porn star, then she didn’t have much to offer in the first place. Or more likely, weighting her wants and needs versus her offers would wind up at a negative number.

  10. Revo Luzione October 3, 2013 at 8:56 pm #

    Does anyone here find it terribly Ironic and perfect that Delicious Tacos and Haley’s Halo have the *exact* same WordPress theme? So much so, that if you have them both open in side-by-side browser windows, and have scrolled past the title, you can’t tell them apart. Deeply funny.

  11. Heidi October 3, 2013 at 9:08 pm #

    Just curious – what is this “feminizing” of men that has supposedly happened?

  12. Tom October 3, 2013 at 10:01 pm #

    You can date a woman for a month or two and she can come to your place, start hollering and smashing dishes and the neighbors can call the police and you will go to jail. That’s not a risk of being rejected or a risk of feeling unloved. It’s a risk of incarceration.

  13. OffTheCuff October 3, 2013 at 10:47 pm #

    Gone on any good dates, lately, Hale? I have!

  14. GI_JANE October 3, 2013 at 11:43 pm #

    First time poster btw

    Lots of truth in the above statements

    1. Men are more like women
    2. Women are more like men
    3. Less differences in the sexes, we don’t know what we are or what to expect anymore
    4. More access to porn (online), strippers, casual sex, invetro so relationships are not necessary (not even to have a baby)
    5. Lots of us are clueless (even myself, I can do everything in life except figure out that it was important to get a man, yeah dumb I know)
    6. Once or twice we HAVE had the courage to take a chance on love, and it didn’t work out one way or another. We don’t know much about it to begin with so our little self esteem went from slightly bruised to into the negatives.
    7. Bc of all this social awkwardness, by the time we’ve outgrown our shyness, we are so set in our ways/socially clueless that changing behaviors makes us look even more awkward to potential dates, or second dates (if we’re even lucky to get that far w/o screwing it up) that the few times we do try cause us more fear than gain.

  15. Frustrated October 4, 2013 at 1:36 am #

    Some of the main problems are that Christian women demand the absolute best of two opposing extremes (Humanism/Christianity) all within the same person, and each man is compared to a twisted and unrealistic work of fiction in her mind. They expect all the excitement and attraction of Brad Pitt (tall, rich, handsome, popular, entertaining, etc.), along with all the spiritual maturity and selflessness and grace of Jesus. They want to have-it-all, and believe they “deserve” it all because society told them so, yet they expect men to ignore all their “mistakes” (willful sins), and they don’t have any grace or forgiveness for men. They want the comfort and freedom to be fully human, but expect men to be perfect at all times. They won’t accept men as they are, because they already believe they are better than men (thank you feminism.)

    How could a man ever be in a relationship with a woman who always acts superior to him?!

    How could a man love a woman who says she loves him, yet treats him otherwise?!

    What man would ever want to date her impossible-to-satisfy checklist and jump through all her endless hoops just so that she can have bragging rights to make her friends jealous?! She’ll just be self-righteous and judgmental, and break-up with him the first time he proves he’s only human or when someone “more exciting” comes along to tickle the fantasy butterfly tingles in her tummy.

    Add-in the very real and likely threats of divorce/financial ruin/loss of custody of children/and incarceration, and most Christian women now simply are not even worth the time, money, effort, and risk involved.

    They don’t love men. They only love themselves.
    Dating a Christian woman now is a pointless one-way road in their direction, and they’re too blind and lost in fantasyland to see it.

    There is nothing in it left for men.

    If I could find a Christian woman who isn’t a spoiled narcissistic bitch, and actually thinks of and treats men well, then I might consider it, but them pews are filled with entitlement “daughter of the king” princesses that love only themselves, quote scriptures arrogantly, and treat men like dirt.

    Before, I loved selflessly and prayed to find a godly wife, and now, after dating some of the best Christian women I could find out there, I just ask God to protect me from them.

    It’s just not worth the trouble anymore.

  16. The_Collapsar October 4, 2013 at 7:01 am #

    First-time poster here.

    It depends. There are plenty of people I know who are mostly in long-term relationships, but also some people who are largely disconnected. I am one of the latter, and I’ll give a bit of background on that because I think I’m a good example of what you’re referring to here. I won’t even claim to want to date, although I would if I met the “right” girl.

    In my case, regarding the social settings commentary you made, a lot of it has to do with most of my coed interactions being in a work environment. It isn’t professional and tends to bring trouble to behave in ways indicating you are searching for romance, so most interactions between males and females in that environment are pretty deadpan. My social group outside of work is largely devoted to male-dominated nerdy hobbies, so I don’t interact with women much there.

    But even given that, I am extremely apathetic about dating and relationships. I spent most of last year in a serious relationship that ended in complete disaster for me, and the only relationship I had been in before then also ended poorly. The few girls I have asked out beyond those two girlfriends have all turned me down. When your romantic life is nothing but a bullet-point list of failures (some with a very high temporal and emotional cost) and being poorly treated by members of the opposite sex, your enthusiasm to seek our more punishment diminishes over time. I’ve spent so much time single that I’m very used to the single life and it doesn’t particularly bother me. Also, I am by no means “alpha,” so I don’t attract women naturally and would have to put in significant effort to do so. Video games and other nerd hobbies take far less effort and (this is a little depressing) have been more fulfilling.

    I suppose (as a Christian who has always been celibate and marriage-minded) the twin jokes that are modern marriage and modern Churchianity don’t really motivate me much either. My apologies for the depressing post, I have simply reached a point of enormous cynicism regarding relationships, and I wonder how many other young people (men especially) are there as well.

  17. The Man Who Was . . . October 4, 2013 at 8:13 am #

    No more than guys have to compete with Mr. Grey or the Sparkly Vamipres.

    That’s actually one of the recurring themes of this blog: how men have to compete with media stars/fantasy figures.

  18. The Man Who Was . . . October 4, 2013 at 8:16 am #

    GI JANE:

    Excellent comment.

  19. Fred October 4, 2013 at 9:02 am #

    We are an overworked, stressed-out, nervous, and generally unhappy society. This doesn’t promote romance.

  20. anon October 4, 2013 at 10:18 am #

    I see the same thing around me too, single people in their mid-late twenties heading towards their 30s with single-status inertia.

    I can’t speak for others, but for me it’s just so rare that I get a chance to
    1) meet someone new
    2) interact enough with her to get to know her at least superficially
    3) find her attractive/interesting/compatible enough to ask on a date

    On top of that, as someone said above, it’s a big risk-reward thing. I get that the idea of someone like Ben Stiller’s character in Along Came Polly (calculating risk scores for women and choosing who to marry based on the number) is incredibly unromantic, but honestly having a mindset along those lines is how you intelligently prevent those nightmare relationship/marriage stories.

    Sure, there’s a chance that the girl I work with who is very attractive could end up being a terrific match, but there’s a very good chance it won’t quite work out – and if it doesn’t, there’s potential for so much to go wrong. Same goes in the church, though pickings are a bit slimmer there in my case.

    When you compare that to my life now, as a single mid-twenties guy who has a house, car, education & career, and hobbies, it’s hard to justify taking those risks for a girl who won’t be tangibly adding real value to my life. I’ve had great relationships in the past, but they all come with some emotionally trying times – and again, I get that there’s no such thing as a perfect easy no-stress relationship, but I quite like the freedom and stress-free nature of my life as it is now.

    And I guess I’ll add, in case I get dismissed as an “herbivore phenomenon” case, that I have a very healthy sex drive and no I haven’t been a perfect Christian. But to many people around me, I probably do seem to, as you said, be lethargic about dating. My mindset is to live my life, keep improving myself by studying, working out, and playing music, and the hope in the back of my head is that I’ll eventually meet someone that is worth the risks, though I have been coming to grips with the possibility that that may never happen.

  21. nitouken October 4, 2013 at 10:19 am #

    A personal anecdote;

    Some months ago I asked out a girl from our church. It wasn’t anything serious – just a ‘get to know you’ lunch date, followed by a walk. I asked her out again a little bit later, and got an email that essentially said ‘This isn’t going where I think you think it’s going, so let’s not.’ One date. Now, I’d be completely cool if she had said “You have X unattractive feature about you, so I’m just not attracted” (And I’ve got a few, I admit it), and she has every right to reject me for any reason she wants to, but this isn’t the first time I’ve encountered it. I’ve seen other guys go through similar things – sure, we’ve all got unattractive features, but getting rejected after one date, over and over, tends to discourage us in even asking girls out. And I go to a VERY man friendly church (our youth leader and I regularly discuss Dalrock, for example), but the girls really aren’t. I’ve noticed this elsewhere, and I suspect that I’m not the only one. Guys are only willing to be rejected so many times, and girls seem to have this idea that you should know, positively, that you’re going to marry someone after one date. That may well be a caricature, but it sure looks that way to me.

  22. Samson J. October 4, 2013 at 10:40 am #

    I guess I’m not getting my Kindle review.

  23. Samson J. October 4, 2013 at 10:41 am #

    I don’t actually think video games are keeping men from asking women out.

    You don’t?

    I’m beginning to suspect that societies in which parents and relatives cease facilitating relationship formation are doomed to failure, and there is no way back.

  24. David October 4, 2013 at 11:15 am #

    First time commenter:

    (As a 32 year old male) I think Haley’s observations are accurate. That there is a huge apathy in the dating world. GI JANE’s comment is spot on for how I feel about all this. Combine that with Frustrated’s comments about the bullet-list of failures and it might go to explain some of the apathy.

    Roissy has said in the past that (regarding women) success begets success, failure begets failure. (paraphrasing) I think Roissy is very accurate with that. It seems to be extremely difficult to have any success that not playing seems like the only way to win.

  25. David October 4, 2013 at 11:28 am #

    I should say: It seems to be extremely difficult to begin to have any success that not playing seems like the only way to win.

  26. innocentbystanderboston October 4, 2013 at 12:33 pm #

    …but then people want to wait for like five years and attempt cohabitation to be ABSOLUTELY SURE that ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING is EXACTLY to their liking before even THINKING about marriage.—-

    Uh no.

    They live together for 5 years before they get married because she has to pay off all her student loan and credit card debt before he even thinks about getting a ring. That could ONLY happen if she is living with him (at his place carte blanche.) Now her only expense is the credit cards and the student loans for her useless degrees.

    Have to square teh anti-dowries first.

  27. uh October 4, 2013 at 12:36 pm #

    ” Guy are terrified of contradicting a woman or telling her anything, ”

    Better word is tired. Modern women suffer from a worldview incorrect in nearly every detail – a massive, nay sisyphean project for a man to take on for a) women who are so far from virtuous they probable can’t even spell it, b) the endless domestic frustrations following union with such “strong, independent women”, and c) legal disadvantage in divorce courts when they decide “you’re just not enough,” and that they’d rather go back to “wandering around cluelessly” for Mr. Big.

    Got the last point right, by the way.

  28. uh October 4, 2013 at 12:37 pm #

    “I’m beginning to suspect that societies in which parents and relatives cease facilitating relationship formation are doomed to failure, and there is no way back.”

    You and every sociologist writing about this since the 1910s, genius.

  29. Andrea October 4, 2013 at 2:09 pm #

    I understand the feeling of doing risk assessment on the idea of the relationship. Wondering whether it’s worth the risk of getting hurt or at the least adding stress to/rearranging my life by getting into a relationship. Dealing with the rejection of guys ending dating relationships, or the pain of ending one which is not workable. Wondering if guys would really care about her as a person, or whether she’d be an item crossed off on their life checklist (aka: “Find hot wife to give me cute kids and make me gloriously happy”). There are plenty of days where I think I could live quite contentedly as a permanent single.

    Oh, and I wonder if the internet contributes to the phenomenon of disinterest in dating. At your fingertips are a world of sob stories and dire warnings of the dangers of dating/marriage. It doesn’t matter if the one story comes from DC and you live in a rural area (or the story is completely inapplicable to you in another way). It exists on the internet (where no one ever lies), and therefore is true–and could happen to YOU.

  30. Andrew October 4, 2013 at 2:34 pm #

    Hmm. If you’re talking to the Christian crowd about dating–we Christian guys are always being preached at about how evil we are, how lustful, how sex is very wrong and it’s the man’s fault.

    So, if sex shouldn’t happen until marriage… why date?

    Not only that, but for those of us that were homeschooled (there are some of us weirdos out there) we homeschooled guys pretty much didn’t learn how to date. All we got was a church seminar about staying pure until marriage, and such, so we learned how to get friendzoned.

    So really, why date? I realize there are awesome women out there, and women place more importance on dating then men… but why? For Christian college age males, what motivation is there to date? Only a very small percent of us are interested in getting married in the foreseeable future.

  31. Andrew October 4, 2013 at 3:00 pm #

    Oh, and what’s probably also a problem is rampant obesity in the USA. Men and women both–way to many fatties. Ironically, most fat men or fat women think/expect to get partners who are in shape. Girls are more forgiving of weight of the guy has attractive, alpha traits, but for guys–being in shape is mandatory (and only a small amount of gutsy girls are willing to ask guys out, so what guys want IS more important here, haha.).

    I honestly think that if everyone was willing to get in shape, the dating market would be easy for men–instead of so many fat girls, there would be so many more cute girls and a small amount of homely women. What is “average” would go way up if all the fat girls got in shape.

  32. Robert October 4, 2013 at 4:43 pm #

    I think that many young men are coming to the realization – even if subconsciously, that most young American women have nothing to offer but sex. Loyalty, nurturing, modesty, compassion, etc, are all things of the past.

  33. Frustrated October 4, 2013 at 5:10 pm #

    @ Andrea

    “Find hot wife to give me cute kids and make me gloriously happy”

    I have never heard any Christian men with this mindset.

    Do we want an acceptably attractive (not fat) wife that exceeds a minimum threshold of attractiveness (in our eyes/probably at least an average 5 or 6)?! Yes! But I have never heard of a man who prioritizes the desire for “cute kids” into his list of goals to accomplish.

    Do we want to be happy?! Of course! But I don’t think “gloriously happy” is a goal that most men believe will be realistic, non-stop, or guaranteed in life. We just want to have a basically happy (no nonsense, no drama, live in reality and work together as a team) relationship/marriage. We actually do want our women to be happy, and would like our women to desire the same for us, but we have each learned that women spend far more time taking or receiving selfishly from their men, and less time actually giving selflessly to and meeting the needs of their men. It is a one-sided life suck that leaves men empty and bitter.

    I think your description (or fear) is based on your assumptions of what you believe about men. You may assume that if men do X, then their motives must be “evil”, because you know a woman’s motives must be evil were she to do those things. What you fail to understand is that MEN ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN WOMEN. WE THINK DIFFERENTLY AND ACT DIFFERENTLY, AND WE ARE NOT WRONG FOR BEING DIFFERENT, but women believe that being different is bad because they want men to think and act as they do.

    Learn to understand, value, accept, and appreciate all the ways men think and act differently than women. Take the time to listen to us without assuming evil motives, because you will learn WHY men do what we do, and for good reasons. And when you do begin to understand us, you will begin to understand our needs, and will be able to “love” (respect) us in ways that breath life into our hearts (and relationships).

    Stop judging us. Start listening to and caring about our thoughts, opinions, circumstances, and needs with no selfish motives of your own.

  34. earl October 4, 2013 at 5:36 pm #

    The last four girls I’ve asked out on a date.

    Busy with no counteroffer, no response, busy with no counteroffer, no response.

    It’s hard to go on a date when the other party makes no effort…eventually you begin to see it as a pattern and think “why bother”.

  35. earl October 4, 2013 at 5:46 pm #

    Or the times I would make it to a date or two…the “i’m not feeling it” text would come up. It would seem dating is a hindrance to men that attempt it and the hooking up part is the only place where they do “feel it”.

    Once again another thing women killed.

  36. Andrea October 4, 2013 at 7:36 pm #

    Frustrated:
    I wrote my post out of frustration, too. The phrase you took exception to was supposed to be a hyperbolic expression of a woman’s idea of a man’s worldview. It was not supposed to be an accurate representation of reality.

    I should have learned my lesson from reading other emotionally-inspired posts: never post when emotional. Ah well.

  37. Canadian Reader October 4, 2013 at 10:58 pm #

    I’ve noticed this even among the Navigators group that I go to, and that’s ranging from ages 18-25. There is one engaged couple there, but other than that there are no dating couples or even any interest in dating. None. Part of this might be because most of these people grew up with “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” type courtship advice, but this is getting seriously ridiculous. These people are in their physical prime and many of the men are what I would consider to be moderately-very attractive (but that’s my own opinion and Your Mileage May Vary) and the girls are in generally good shape, so this leads to the question as to why there aren’t more people pairing up. It’s not an issue of attitude either, as the women aren’t being strong, independent “You Go Grrrl” types (or at least, they aren’t striking me as such). Then I remember that this is college, most people are going to follow society and not even going to consider serious dating/marriage until after college, even though they have the biggest access to the Christian singles pool in their prime NOW and will never get such good access again. *headwall* Very frustrating for someone who has red-pilled and who now, at 21, is wanting to marry while she is still young. Advice?

  38. ____________________ October 5, 2013 at 12:05 am #

    @ Canadian Reader

    Advice?:

    http://peacefulsinglegirl.wordpress.com (Especially this one. Do what April Cassidy says.)
    http://peacefulwife.com
    http://loveandrespect.com
    http://loveandrespectnow.com

  39. Canadian Reader October 5, 2013 at 8:01 am #

    ^ Thank you Anon for the links, I knew about the desire for respect from men but I wasn’t entirely sure how to convey that in Real Life so the suggestions on those links helped. :) Thanks again!

  40. Seth Connor October 5, 2013 at 8:40 am #

    Haley, I love your blog and I think you’re asking all the right questions. As a single Chrisitan, I did not consider pursuing dating until I was out of college. After I graduated I noticed that women fall into two catagories:

    A. They want my money. It’s obvious that they only want me to buy them things because that’s all they ask me to do. They’ll hit on me, ask me how single/lonely I must be, and immediately turn around and ask me to fund something (usually suggested: an expensive date at a specific place). Worse is that most of these girls are proclaimed Christians and/or already have boyfriends. Two days after I graduated and became Dr. Seth, a regular churchgoing female I dumped because of the boyfriend she was still in a LTR with (she wasn’t telling either of us about the other) called to profess her love and that she’d give her baby up for adoption to be with me (did I mention she gave birth a year after I stopped seeing her?). Seriously…W…T…F

    B. The girls with no interest in marriage. They’re at the peak of their SMV after a lifetime of being told to wait, that they’re special and to keep looking up. So upwards they look, totally oblivious to the steep drop of their SMV looming in a few short years, and when that time comes they’ll be falling, falling and probably still “looking up” and in denial that they are no longer attractive to high-value men until they end up in my office needing Alprazolam. I’ve been asked to dinners by the parents and grandparents of nubile women who will sit there with a cellphone or staring blankly while the older adults and I will have discussions on matters of culture, politics, theology, finance and literature. One of these parents even revealed that after I left they chastised their (20 y/o, colledge-going) daughter for not being an entertaining hostess and forced her to take an ettiquite class at her institution.

    Don’t get me wrong. I KNOW there are great girls out there who are consider marriage seriously, but with all the pollutant it makes men like me feel, as poster “Uh” put it, TIRED. After all, with all the professional good-girl-actresses and women who have forgotten that men are men and women are women, even if we THINK we’ve found the holy grail of girls there’s STILL that looming 70% of 50/50 that she’ll decide one day she isn’t happy and detonate the relationship in a shower of cash and prizes (for her) at the expense of a lifetime of servitude to the she-goddess (for me). Factor in that by the time women feel “ready” (they’re desperate) they have lost much of their attractiveness and seldom try to take advantage of what they have left.

    My solution is the same that many of my biblical predecessors sought: Foriegn women. After a year of contemplation, I decided I would go to Ukraine. I will be leaving next March on with a group led by a Christian man and his wife who lead such pilgrimages to find spouses for men. I like what I hear, 90% match rate, 35% (and improving) marriage rate, 0% divorce rate, 100% satisfaction rate. Considering that international relationships already have less than half the chance of failing that a domestic marriage has and that they score higher on happiness tests, I feel like it’s a no-brainer for men to shut down on marriage here and either go their own way or look “outside the box”.

    Keep up the good work Haley, maybe you’ll turn around some of these women who don’t get it, and they’ll end up acting like the women we men want to be inspired by.

  41. andrew October 5, 2013 at 10:12 am #

    Lmao, it’s hilarious that while the topic is “why don’t people want to date?” No one, not even the author, has said “they should date because xyz good reasons says dating is a good idea.” Maybe we’re all just loners at heart, haha.

  42. whatnews October 5, 2013 at 1:05 pm #

    Most of the replies from men are well summarized as “guy who has a house, car, education & career, and hobbies, it’s hard to justify taking those risks for a girl who won’t be tangibly adding real value to my life”.

    The value and traditional motivation for men to date and marry has been having children of their own, not even sex. Children currently are not something many women are interested in, except as for some one as a middle aged hobby, and paternity is rather dubious too.

    Because the value and traditional motivation for women to date and marry has been raising children as pension investments. That was so important to women that they held back their natural impulses and married even betas, early and as virgins, to at least reassure their husband of the paternity of the firstborn, in order to motivate him to invest in her children. But women today get pensions, so they no longer need to start raising an investment portfolio of children early, and no longer need a man to donate his resources and efforts to that investment.

    Other than children, what motivation can women offer men to invest in them, without them investing anything in those men?

    For a long standing example of what the answer is, consider homosexuals, as a barren woman is rather equivalent to a twink: it has always been either casual sex, or dont bother, with only very rarely dating or relationships happening, and then it is mostly about being flatmates, typically middle aged or older.

    Looking at the longer term, what’s happening is that the only men who are doing the dating thing and then having a number of children are those who are very caddish, with a reckless and seductive attitude, so to them dating is very easy, and they do it purely as a hobby. Inasmuch those traits are inheritable, today’s women are exercising a strong sexual selection pressure to ensure future men are going to be only those they will be very much sexually and emotionally dependent on.

  43. Hana October 5, 2013 at 1:51 pm #

    I think sometimes it looks like people in a social circle aren’t interested in dating because they aren’t interested in the people in a particular group (or the people there aren’t interested in them). I’ve seen men show up to a group (eg. church group) over a long period of time and not seem that interested in the girls there…and then show up a couple years later engaged to someone outside the group.

    I think in the past, people were more likely to make a distinction between “dating” and “going steady.” Now, in secular culture, it’s either “hooking up” or “being in a relationship.” Church culture doesn’t condone the first option, so people either “start a relationship” or don’t “date” much at all. I mean, you still have to get to know each other to start up a relationship, so there are some dates…but even then, every one is being kind of cautious about saying what’s actually going on.

  44. y81 October 5, 2013 at 2:16 pm #

    As a 55 year old married man, I don’t date much, but the younger people in our church seem to be doing just fine. One girl in our fellowship got married about a year ago (to a bf she had when joined the group, so I don’t know how they met), one girl met a guy at coffee hour about a year ago and they just got married, and a third girl met a guy at work and brought him to the latest FG, where they were all cuddly. Maybe things are different in New York City?

  45. hatefulheretic October 5, 2013 at 3:55 pm #

    I dunno, maybe teach women to stop hating men? But then you’d have to shut down the Women’s Studies Department.

  46. Andrea October 5, 2013 at 4:01 pm #

    Seth Connor,
    I’m curious–how will you rule out the possibility a foreign woman isn’t marrying you for the visa/citizenship and your supposed money as a rich American doctor? Also, I’m wondering how many years this thing has been run for and whether the couples reporting in are still in the honeymoon stage of marriage. Maybe it’s the skeptical scientist talking, but the 100% satisfaction rate sounds improbable.

    I bring this up because I know of a number of couples in my area where the wives are Filipino and the husbands are Americans. I’ve seen them at various get-togethers: all the wives chatting away to each other in Filipino while the husbands stand around looking lost/bored/glum. Out of the five couples, maybe one seemed truly happy/in love with each other. The rest seem to tolerate each other. I don’t know whether any of them were Christians or not.

    I hope you find a good woman to marry, Ukrainian or otherwise, in the near future.

  47. Seth Connor October 5, 2013 at 4:16 pm #

    @Andrea

    The easiest way (if you could call it that) would be to move to the Ukraine and live with her. Several of the couples do that.

    I have no intention of going that far myself, so I simply have to trust in their process of screening the men and women for sincerity and their (extremely) openness to communication.

    They made a few hundred hours of educational videos, and the one I believe you would want to watch (that is publicly available) to answer your question would be: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt4AQYu0pUQ

    You could also attend their weekly lectures and ask, or simply call any of them (or most of their wives) directly.

  48. Seth Connor October 5, 2013 at 4:22 pm #

    And it is probably worth mentioning that I encounter on a weekly basis at least two Eastern European women who have, what I would describe as, euphoric relationships with their husbands, and have been here +10 years each. I do agree about the Phillipines, though. My grandmother wants me to go there (many men around her area of the bible belt are starting to pull women from there) but I see a few of them looking at their husbands as walking ATM’s.

  49. Frustrated October 5, 2013 at 8:03 pm #

    I’ve paid a lot of attention to other relationships between American men and foreign women, and from what I’ve seen and heard, American men might be wise to pursue Latin American or Eastern European women who still believe in traditional gender roles, behave femininely, and hold themselves accountable to treat their men well. But, those American men should remain with their wives in that foreign country forever, because they can’t allow their wives to ever become Americanized/Feminized/spoiled/ruined by American culture. The moment those foreign women move back to the US and make friendships with American women (even Christian women), they begin to lose all their value as suitable wives.

  50. galloper6 October 5, 2013 at 9:41 pm #

    I see a common theme here. Around the 60s women decided they wanted cads, pickup arts and dice men. (The modern term is player) Well they got what they wished for.

  51. whatnews October 6, 2013 at 2:28 am #

    Well it is not quite true that “Around the 60s women decided they wanted cads”, they have always wanted cads, the questions were whether before or after marriage, and how often.

    After the corporate sponsored PR campaigns like “Torches for freedom” and WWII, women started to realize that they did not have to first marry a provider beta and guarantee to him the paternity of the first child in order for him to invest in her portfolio of children.

    They realized that they could get a job, invest directly in a pension in their own name, and go straight for the cads, and skip the degradation of “saving themselves” to get that beta provider to marry them as an investor in her children.

    But going back to the question in this blog post, the key is always motivation, and from both sides: what motivation have women to date, when they don’t need men as investors in their children, and what motivation have men to date, when they are not going to have children or a secure guarantee of paternity?

    Especially if they belong to many Christian churches that forgive every transgression by “innocent victim” women and ferociously intimidate men regarded as “vile predators”?

  52. Aunt Haley October 6, 2013 at 3:30 pm #

    nitouken–

    Some months ago I asked out a girl from our church. It wasn’t anything serious – just a ‘get to know you’ lunch date, followed by a walk. I asked her out again a little bit later, and got an email that essentially said ‘This isn’t going where I think you think it’s going, so let’s not.’ One date. Now, I’d be completely cool if she had said “You have X unattractive feature about you, so I’m just not attracted” (And I’ve got a few, I admit it), and she has every right to reject me for any reason she wants to, but this isn’t the first time I’ve encountered it. I’ve seen other guys go through similar things – sure, we’ve all got unattractive features, but getting rejected after one date, over and over, tends to discourage us in even asking girls out.

    How is “this isn’t going where I think you think it’s going, so let’s not” somehow worse than “I don’t like X about you, so I’m not attracted to you”? In both cases, she found something about you that she didn’t like and on that basis decided not to pursue anything more.

    Also, would you rather a girl who has already decided that you have a dealbreaking unattractive quality go on multiple dates with you just to spare your feelings, only to dump you after an even greater investment of time/money/emotions? A guy can tell in 0.1 seconds whether he finds a girl attractive, but you’re basically saying that women need to invest many hours in a man to decide whether or not he is attractive, so as not to discourage you.

  53. DR_V October 6, 2013 at 4:06 pm #

    First time to comment

    I’ve noticed that in with most women in 20s that traditional dating is pretty much out unless it is somehow set up (i.e. internet dating, set up through a mutual friend). Women may profess to want to be “asked out”, but actually want to get to know someone casually in a non-threatening environment first. In my experience many women will actually reject a date invitation although they may have some interest in the inviting guy. The problem is one of creating proximity; how can one (typically the onus is on guys) to create these opportunities to mingle casually? It can be quite difficult especially if you see women infrequently such as after church or intermittently at work.

  54. Kaehu October 6, 2013 at 4:30 pm #

    An old guy’s comments (57). The thing I find most unattractive about young women?

    Smartphones. Virtually every young woman I see is hypnotized looking at her smartphone. They have no clue what is going on around them, let alone the ability to make eye contact, smile, etc. Totally self-absorbed. Would be a huge turnoff for me as a guy if I were looking for someone.

  55. Ceer October 6, 2013 at 9:21 pm #

    I used to ask women out on dates to try to get to know them better. After years of being told no, I stopped asking. The end.

  56. Kevin October 6, 2013 at 10:22 pm #

    I was talking about this with a friend not long ago. At a large church we use to attend there is still a sizable group of men and women in the singles group who have been there for the past 5-10 years. If you’ve been in the singles group for eight years and nothing has happened it’s time to do a serious reassessment. These people have no game. Part of it is no risk taking (yes, I know that within our evangelical circles that theme is constantly hammered in to the men). I think a lot of it comes down to all the bad advice the singles have received from pastors and dating books. It really leaves people with no game and not understanding how the other side thinks and operates. They are left adrift an ocean in a slowly sinking ship using an infeasible guidebook to save their prime single years.

  57. nitouken October 7, 2013 at 2:00 am #

    @haley

    I reread my comment, and I realized that it was badly rambling and borderline incoherent. In my sole defense, I wrote it during a meeting with only half my brain focused on it.

    It’s not that it’s somehow better to be unattractive, it’s the attitude that I’ve seen, multiple times, that marriage has to be clearly on the table from date one. Nobody dates just for fun. While it should remain an option (never date someone you _couldn’t_ marry), it doesn’t necessarily have to be obvious that two people are going to get married in order for a second date to be a good idea. Instead, the thought process I’ve observed seems to be ‘if there’s any doubt about marriage, then the answer is no.’

    On the subject of attractiveness – sure, guys can assess that immediately, but it’s not like we can do the same thing for marriageability. I find a preponderance of the single women at my church ‘marriageably’ attractive, but I don’t know the majority of them, except in passing. I know that for me, one date is not sufficient to gauge anything other than “well, that was/wasn’t fun”, and I find it very hard to believe that there is that much more that a woman could extract from the same experience.

    It has nothing to do with discouraging me personally – I’m persistent to the point of stupidity. It has to do with discouraging guys on the whole. Most guys aren’t willing to keep asking girls out if they never get past the first date (leaving aside nuclear rejections).

    On the whole, I think I’m just trying to say –
    Sure, people want to date, but their opinions on how dating should work are so misaligned that it’s nearly impossible for it to work. Men think that dating should be a fun way to get to know each other. Women seem to think that it is tantamount to a marriage proposal.

  58. The_Collapsar October 7, 2013 at 9:31 am #

    “A guy can tell in 0.1 seconds whether he finds a girl attractive, but you’re basically saying that women need to invest many hours in a man to decide whether or not he is attractive, so as not to discourage you.”

    Haley, this isn’t a fair comparison. We all know that men and women’s attraction triggers are quite different. Also, I’ve had plenty of times where my initial (visual) impression was “she’s attractive” but that went away after I actually spent time with the woman.

    After reading this thread, it seems like this dating apathy is quite common (not just me lol). I’ve occasionally thought about looking for a Christian singles group in my area, but again, apathy.

    Canadian Reader: As a 25-year old male who recently discovered the red pill, I regret not discovering it several years ago when I was in a college Intervarsity group full of attractive young Christian women. There were a bunch of marriages from that group that happened within a year or so of graduation. College Christian groups are pretty much the highest concentration of eligible marriage material ever, at least in my experience (the group I was in was definitely marriage-minded overall, although there were a number of people – me included – who didn’t prioritize it and got left out in the cold).

  59. galloper6 October 7, 2013 at 1:52 pm #

    The Intermarriage firewall of “no dating heathen” leaves a very small dating pool unless you are in a really huge church. Fewer dates mean less dating experience and the polished game that it is developed from. The older generation that laments their daughters marrying “heathens” dont realize that they handicaped the sons of the church out of the competition.

  60. earl October 9, 2013 at 6:18 am #

    I really see no reason to date anyway. You are spending your precious money and time on a woman who may not even care to be there. I get more experience just going up to women and talking with them.

    I consider dates now to be my 5 minute conversations with women I meet and learning from those experiences. They want to get to know me more…they know what to do.

  61. patriarchal landmine October 9, 2013 at 7:50 am #

    accusing every man of rape for looking a female’s way isn’t going to help matters, I know that.

  62. deti October 9, 2013 at 8:39 am #

    So much to talk about here. This is a red pill gold mine.

    Guys don’t want to contradict a woman or tell her anything because he knows that if he says anything she believes is “offensive”, he could be risking his reputation or his job with a trumped up sex harassment charge.

    Women don’t want to ask men for dates because in everything except intersexual relationships, women claim strength and independent and “I don’t need a man”. But when it comes to men, they revert immediately to traditional gender role notions and thus demand that the man accept all the risks and pay for everything.

    You want to know why ““in day-to-day interactions, young guys just seem weirdly uninterested in women.”? Because by and large, women aren’t worth it. The hassle isn’t worth it.

    Men don’t want to ask women for dates “until they’re ABSOLUTELY SURE that the other person will ABSOLUTELY say yes…” because of the following:

    1. The sex harassment trope.
    2. The risk of nuclear rejection, especially in church.
    3. The risks and costs far, far outweigh the potential reward. In short, it’s just not worth it.

    As a rule I’m seeing fewer and fewer differences between Christian women and secular women. Christian women look, talk, act, sound, and live like secular women. But worse, most Christian women’s expectations for men are positively stratospheric. There isn’t a man alive who could possibly satisfy everything these girls expect. It really is true: she expects the total package: a man who’s ready made with money, a house, charm, good looks, a rockin’ body, and spiritual maturity. Just take him off the shelf and take him home, no assembly required, no maintenance.

    If you want to know why Christian women can’t find any Christian men to date, it’s because most of those Christian men aren’t attractive to you. And they aren’t attractive to you because they listen to people like Mark Driscoll, Dr. James Dobson, Dennis Rainey, and Glenn Stanton. These unfortunate men are hearing everyone around them say that their sexual desires are violent, predatory, criminal and evil. They are getting hammered every day with the message that they need to “Man Up and Marry the first slut who shows them any interest at all” and “single moms are heroes; single men are selfish jerks”. Their interests are decidedly secondary to those of Christian women, according to the Church. These men are essentially being told that their sole reason for existence is to provide themselves as boyfriends for church girls, husbands for Christian women; fathers for their children, and stepfathers for the thugspawn of “reformed sluts”.

    No, all risk cannot be eliminated. But for men, the risks are enormous. If he selects the wrong woman, he’s consigning himself to frivorce or a miserable, sexless marriage. There isn’t a man over the age of 12 who hasn’t seen another man chewed up in the divorce meat grinder. And being Christian is no immunity from that, not with a 38% divorce rate among professing Christians and a 25% divorce rate among US Roman Catholics.

    The college educated set wants to make real connections. But at least for men, many of them have undertaken the cost-benefit analysis and decided the costs and risks of failure far, far outstrip any possible benefit.

  63. Andrea October 9, 2013 at 9:11 am #

    All men are bitter or uber-beta (or both). All women are sluts or snobs (or both). Got it. We will all die single and lonely or in loveless marriages.

    Fortunately for humanity, I know a good number of Christians in real life (aka, offline) who do not fit the above descriptors.

  64. anon October 9, 2013 at 10:05 am #

    @ Andrea:

    Not quite :) We will all die single and *happy*, or at least happier than if we had made poor decisions regarding dating/marriage/etc.

    At least that’s the idea.

  65. Andrea October 9, 2013 at 10:25 am #

    While that sounds great at 24/28/30, somewhere approximately 20ish years down the road, it might not be so attractive. And that’s the rub. Of course, since guys don’t lose value with aging like women do, they could theoretically then pick up a (younger) girlfriend, so maybe that doesn’t even apply.

  66. deti October 9, 2013 at 2:41 pm #

    @Andrea:

    “ All men are bitter or uber-beta (or both). All women are sluts or snobs (or both). Got it. We will all die single and lonely or in loveless marriages.

    “Fortunately for humanity, I know a good number of Christians in real life (aka, offline) who do not fit the above descriptors.”

    Not so fast, Sparky. Men and women can do something about this.

    I’m just describing what the mainline North American Church looks like. But never fear. You can do something about this.

    Men: Stop taking dating advice from women. Stop taking relationship or dating advice Christian relationship and family advisors like Driscoll, Dobson, Focus on the Family, Rainey, et al. Start taking dating advice from men who have some success at it. Stop investing so much in women until they’ve earned it. Stop offering commitment at the drop of a hat. Most of the girls in your church are either hopelessly unattractive or have out of this world expectations. Look elsewhere. You need to increase your attractiveness. Do something to improve yourself. Get a hobby (not video games or RPGs). Get a better haircut and dress better. Get it through your head right now – your Christian faith is NOT attractive.

    Women: Improve your physical appearance. Lose the damn weight. Grow your damn hair out. Wear a dress. Wear some decent makeup. Lower your standards. Your expectations from men and marriage are frankly ridiculous. You aren’t all that, so you need to stop acting as if you are. Stop slutting around. Stop hanging around sluts. Start thinking for yourself and doing for yourself instead of letting The Herd do your thinking for you. Offer more than just your body to a man. Learn how to cook, clean and take care of a house. Stop being such bitches. Try being nice and pleasant once in a while. Stop being an entitled princess. You are not entitled to free drinks, meals and entertainment from the men you date.

  67. galloper6 October 9, 2013 at 4:11 pm #

    Deti may I add: To parents, Fathers stop keeping you teenage boys from socializing with the public for fear they may meet actual heathens. Mothers stop telling your sons what prospective mother in laws want but what young women want. And maybe mention to you daughters that Mr Badass will not morph into George Bailey when it suits her schedual.

  68. theshido October 9, 2013 at 4:50 pm #

    @deti: Couldn’t have said it better myself.

  69. Dillon October 10, 2013 at 12:12 am #

    Women don’t need men, they have jobs.

    Men don’t need women, they have porn.

    Since “need” is out of the picture, whats left is “want”. Women wanting an ideal man, men wanting an ideal woman. Both are stuck in a no man’s land of “want”.

    But “want” is not enough motivation hence the low birthrate of developed countries.

    Advice for men: Spend your 20s making and saving money. In 30s move to a society where women need you and stay there.

  70. Jason Walpole October 10, 2013 at 1:11 am #

    As Deti wrote a few posts above, “The risks and costs far, far outweigh the potential reward. In short, it’s just not worth it.” How true. Makes more sense to hire escorts. More and more guys are becoming like the guys on mgtowforums these days, and who can blame them?

  71. Piper October 10, 2013 at 7:21 am #

    I can think of 2250 reasons a month not to date women, and they are all alimony dollars.

  72. deti October 10, 2013 at 7:45 am #

    Galloper:

    You gave some pretty good advice for Christian parents. But I’d suggest the mothers simply not offer any relationship or dating advice to their sons. I’d advise sons to simply tune out any advice from women and from the Church on dating, marriage and intersexual relationships.

    The problem with most men today is they don’t know the first thing about female nature; how women relate to men; what women find attractive; and how to tell if a woman finds them attractive. They listen far too much to what women say; and pay too little heed to what women actually do. They forget that if they get to know a woman for a month or so, they don’t have to listen to anything she says – she will show them who she is.

    This is doubly true of Christian men, who have the added burden of being pounded over the head every single day with an entire false Christo-feminist theology that says male sexual conduct is evil, criminal and predatory; and that men’s highest and best purpose is as husbands and fathers.

  73. cdw100 October 10, 2013 at 7:47 am #

    I am whipping a dead horse here. I already have adult children, an ex wife whose backside I kicked in the divorce, now onto more recent happenings. I have everything most men and some women try to accumulate their whole lives. Now I find that there are women who deem themselves worthy to try and relieve me of my property. I am no fool. I would warn younger men to be vigilant at all times. As for you betamales, you need to commit suicide or get a vasectomy without telling anyone. You are not worthy to reproduce, and of course, you will save $250,000 in child and trollop support over their lifetime. As for dating at my age, out of 20 or 30 women, only one or two make the grade as to their kindness and pleasantness, but they usually have had the same experience in life I have had. If we cant see eye to eye, then no one can. Time to hop on the motorcycle and go for an extended trip.

  74. thepatriotblogspot October 10, 2013 at 7:51 am #

    Maybe if women today weren’t skank bad-boy thug lovers pumpin’ out womb turds from their spin on the alpha loser c0ck carousel then men might have the desire to approach them. here’s a newsflash, WE WANT SEX! But we no longer have to date you to get it. BED! MADE! LIE!!!!!!!!!

  75. Chris Dagostino October 10, 2013 at 8:06 am #

    Good to see that I’m not alone as a Christian MGTOW.

    I started looking for a potential mate about four years ago, but nothing good came out of it. I found myself feeling anger towards God for the lack of prospects and jealousy towards the couples I saw walking hand-in-hand out in public. And that’s not even mentioning the smothering depression that seemed to creep up me at random. Then it dawned on me–I don’t want children and never really had an overt sex drive (that, ironically, was largely due to the depression that the harassment that girls put me through throughout my teen years), so what was I hoping to accomplish? My studying about the effects that Feminism has had on our culture and courts also played an integral part in my “awakening” as well; I never realized how deeply misandry had been ingrained into our culture before then. It’s hard for me to imagine Marilyn Monroe laughing about a man being castrated and having his genitals mangled in a garbage disposal unit.

    I deleted my Christian Mingle profile a few weeks ago. God blessed my finances earlier this year (think six figures) and I got an awesome apartment right where I wanted it, along with a silver Mustang convertible. Do you think I’d keep all those things if a potential wife divorced me? Me neither.

    Gentlemen, if I may share a quote from Jon Bon Jovi: “Map out your future – but do it in pencil.”

  76. John South October 10, 2013 at 9:38 am #

    You read these manosphere blogs and what catches your eye daily?

    Men and allegedly “red pill” women going through silly intellectual somersaults, arguing, debating, negotiating with impressive skill and industry with the opposite sex to find a way to justify the insanity – to make that square peg finally fit in the round hole…

    However, if we look objectively, we see two groups of people that have nothing in common and likely never did. But for some strange reason they think they should. Why? Mostly nostalgia for things that never were.

    Families were once held together by the rules of society, it never WAS any fun but you did what you had to do to survive and not be outcast from the community because that meant DEATH or at least negative consequences.

    Besides, as a young man, you needed sex and there was only one way that was going to happen. Life was nasty, brutish and short. You did what you had to and you were satisfied with less, this is human nature. Chances are you never knew any other way.

    On the other hand if you did what you were told, you may have a family, a home and a legacy. Those things would not be taken from you under ordinary circumstances so there was some incentive (even though it pretty much sucked).

    Today, without the need to survive a harsh environment and appeasing the elders, we have no use or need for each other. In modern life, an average woman objectively offers little value to an average man’s life and vice versa.

    And on the male side, you have the relatively new risk of losing literally everything and becoming her slave for life if she is unsatisfied for any reason. Jail or possibly even death by your own hand could be your only means of escape.

    What you are now witnessing is men and women coming to grips with the fact that they have nothing to offer each other but a nagging, nebulous feeling that they should. This is combined with a growing dread and risk aversion on the male side.

    Laws that punish men for offending women with any botched advances do not help. The risk of polite rejection was not enough, now you may be publicly humiliated or arrested, this leaves only felons and those without shame.

    Once men and women fully understand each other it’s finished – understanding women better was what repulsed me from them.

    Once I understood their needs, desires and expectations clearly, I was out.

    Women simply do not like spending their time they way I do. If I want to be with a woman I have to constantly do things I detest and give up any plans for a fiscally sound financial future.

    Put simply: I can do better on my own.

    Teh Wimminz: But you’ll die alone!

    What they fail to realize is this: you can’t threaten a man with peace and quiet.

  77. galloper6 October 10, 2013 at 10:23 am #

    Patriot I love your rap lyrics. :) Chris dont let the bitterness get too high while you’re young.
    Face it :1 it believing an ideal wont make an ideal happen. 2 The older generation told us about the old rules that no longer work. 3 What women say they want is not what they really want. They claim they want George Bailey but go home with Dice Man.

  78. anon October 10, 2013 at 10:28 am #

    I just saw this thread on reddit, since it was linked on its front page:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/1o3z5r/mod_of_roney_here_women_often_write_for_example/

    Am I being biased here, or are the female responses incredibly entitled and not all that friendly, to a guy posting who really seems to be doing his best to be open and understand this issue..?

    Regardless, you can see a lot of the frustratingly mixed messages/signals that men in today’s society face when it comes to dating – particularly nice-guy Christian men.

  79. Tom October 10, 2013 at 12:20 pm #

    The only risks reasonable people are willing to take are CALCULATED risks. One weighs the costs and benefits of such risks.

    As it is …. men are WELL AWARE — at an EPIC RATE NEVER BEFORE SEEN IN HISTORY — that women simply FAIL a cost / benefit analysis in marriage contracts and relationshits.

    Enjoy the decline.

  80. mghow_Masculinist October 10, 2013 at 3:22 pm #

    More men are wising up and seeing beyond the boobs and makeup. Misandry laws and many women’s innate dislike or ridicule of men are noticed more and more. Ive noticed a lot of women talking about how much they hate men (‘but you’re ok, you’re different and we love you) and when I ask them why, they don’t even know. Some of the women who have expressed hatred towards men haven’t even been treated badly by any of them! (I asked)

    ‘Empowered’ women can’t seem to keep their legs closed and are unashamed until it comes to talking about previous number of partners, they pretend to be naive and innocent and then you discover that they have ridden the cock carousel until they got an attack of the ‘babies rabies’. Ive noticed that some women will do anything to keep their sordid pasts away from any man they are interested in being with.

    It is extremely rare to meet a respectable woman nowadays and some men who have done so, discover 5 years later that they were dating the local bicycle. The odds of finding a woman who hasn’t slept around are so slim it isn’t even worth the bother. What I mentioned is just the tip of the iceberg.

    In short, women rarely have anything interesting to say because so many have relied on their sexuality and looks to get through life, they don’t appear to have a lot to offer other than drama and mind games. The more you understand women and dating, the less likely you are to be foolish enough to waste your time on either.I think there are better odds on the lottery.

  81. Bob October 10, 2013 at 6:10 pm #

    If only more men could detach themselves from the “validation achieved through a girlfriend/wife” programming. No man really needs to settle for a used up hole. I am often saddened by how many betas are consumed by their girlfriends. They are so blinded by sex/social validation from the girlfriend, that they fail to really see their special someone. Moreover, these men will likely no very little about their girlfriend’s past. They will maintain that story of true love and “happily ever after”. Just think Mr. Beta, five years before your fiancé me you, she was happily hooking up with every tattooed punk alive. While you, Mr. Beta, graduate from a top-tier business school, your girl was riding the carousel every other night. Now, that your fiancé has realized her diminishing utility, she will turn to social acceptance from her family and career. She will marry you since money is a hamster’s Plan B. to Alpha dudes.

  82. Aunt Haley October 10, 2013 at 9:02 pm #

    Regular readers–

    This blog post got linked at a MGTOW forum, hence all the “women suck/spend your life alone” whinery and self-congratulations from commenters whose names I don’t recognize.

  83. Kevin October 10, 2013 at 9:54 pm #

    I’ll get a plaque made for you to commemorate this historical occasion.

  84. John Galt October 11, 2013 at 12:56 am #

    Anyone notice the female “logic” in this article?

    -Men voice that they prefer to be with women.
    -Men choose singledom over women.
    -The problem cannot possibly be a terrible environment for dating where men risk everything for nearly nothing in return or that the current batch of women are just unappealing in anyway.
    -Clearly the problem is with the way men fill their free time when they could otherwise sacrificing to give women what they want.

  85. John Galt October 11, 2013 at 1:02 am #

    @ Aunt Haley: Yeah why would you want to hear from the men who have chosen not to date on a blog post about why men are no longer dating?!

    If you had to risk your life’s work, your support network and your children on the whim of a disgruntled woman in order to have a family, aftyer watching your father, friends, uncles, cousins, peers go through that meat grinder would that give you pause?

  86. Jebediah October 11, 2013 at 3:38 am #

    “Aunt Haley October 10, 2013 at 9:02 pm #

    Regular readers–

    This blog post got linked at a MGTOW forum, hence all the “women suck/spend your life alone” whinery and self-congratulations from commenters whose names I don’t recognize.”

    Thanks Aunt Haley. There may be men posting here who didn’t know about MGTOW. Come on over! Here’s the thread talking about this: http://www.mgtowforums.com/forums/mens-general-discussion/19100-crisis-men-not-dating-anymore.html

    We’re also talking about it on r/MGTOW. Have a look, guys. You’re very welcome to join the conversation. :)

  87. Jack October 11, 2013 at 3:38 am #

    I used to pursue serious relationships with girls and eventually get burned. I thought it was my own failure and that not all women were like that. Once I realized that all women view guys as tools to use and discard, it’s been pure bliss. My dating life has been amazing for the past 5 years. I just use women until they ask “where is this relationship going?” That’s when I kick them to the curb. I won’t even co-habitate with a chick. Life is great. Once a woman moves in, that’s when she tries to shame everything that makes you happy. I will die surrounded by my many close friends(another perk – women force you to alienate your buddies) and family. I’m often times babysit my brother’s, sister’s, and cousins’ kids. Whenever the subject of me starting a family comes up I just joke around or change the subject or give vague answers. I have 2 dogs, 1 cat, and am considering getting a monkey. The problem with monkeys is that they need constant attention, so that’s why I’ll probably get 2 monkeys to cancel each other out.

    The women I date are ambitious to try to change me. It puts them on their best behavior, since they all use the tactic of being awesome to me and then threatening to leave me unless I let them move in with me or marry them. That’s when they plan on switching it up and treating me like garbage(the same way all wives treat their husbands,) thinking I’ll be too addicted to them to let go of them. That’s why cheating is so essential. It’s also great not to be saddled with money problems. While married guys make a little more money than us bachelors, their women suck them dry – especially in their 40’s and 50’s.

    In the past, I wanted nothing more than a life-long loving relationship. Even when I gave up on the dream, seeing that women are incapable of feeling any kind of empathy for men, I still desired it. But nowadays, I’m too happy to feel any kind of strong longing for a life-partner. Sometimes I think I might give up my lifestyle for an actual good woman. But even good women end up changing and take a man to the cleaners in divorce court and take his kids away from him and use lies to motivate everyone they can to ostracize him.

  88. Don October 11, 2013 at 3:45 am #

    “Regular readers–

    This blog post got linked at a MGTOW forum, hence all the “women suck/spend your life alone” whinery”

    LOL, This blog post itself is one big whinefest. It also goes on and on about how everything is men’s fault, proving the mgtow’s right. Congratulations on having retarded self awareness.

  89. Don October 11, 2013 at 3:49 am #

    Oh yeah, and you’re literally claiming that male bachelors are by and large MGTOW’s, so suddenly being dismissive of MGTOW opinions makes you an avalanche amount of dumb. If you don’t care about men who go their own way, why are you talking about them?

  90. Andrea October 11, 2013 at 6:10 am #

    That explains a lot. I didn’t remember your regular readers being this vitriolic on past posts!

  91. reacher October 11, 2013 at 8:26 am #

    Seriously? (BTW, I’ve been reading your blog occasionally for the last five months or so)
    You make a blog post whining that the guys don’t want to bother asking women out, and then you act superior somehow when a bunch of guys comment whining about how xzy has happened to them, so that’s why they don’t ask girls out?

    Pot. Kettle. Black.

  92. nubersixxx October 11, 2013 at 9:08 am #

    Maybe more and more men are realizing that women are a waste of time and especially money. Getting laid is easy, you don’t even need to date for that. There is a great number of considerably more useful and rewarding alternatives to focus your energy on.

  93. galloper6 October 11, 2013 at 10:51 am #

    To return to single men in church problem, much of that is from the church culture trying to use the old fashioned mate finding strategeries that no long work. The decling quality of modern women in church and out is a separate issue.

  94. Gabriel October 11, 2013 at 2:01 pm #

    “Find hot wife to give me cute kids and make me gloriously happy”

    A woman on this thread lamented guys wanting this, as if it was some kind of bad thing. And then some guy responded, saying that men don’t actually want this and that it was wrong to portray them as if they do!

    Wow. What in the world is wrong with a man wanting this??? This is part of the problem with men’s apathy toward dating. Men’s desires have been disregarded and cast down as unimportant or evil.

    I got news for you ladies, we’re not looking to marry for the purpose of having conversations about your careers. We want children, sex, a helper, and MAYBE a companion, and based on modern anti-male laws, the last 3 are often not worth the risk if children are not in the picture.

    Yes, a man wants a hot wife. The Bible describes the wives of the patriarchs as “fair to look upon”. It is ridiculous for women to complain about how “men are visual” and want beauty. Are you kidding me? Women will not even consider a short man… and last I checked a man can’t control his height whereas a woman can at least exert some control over whether she’s in shape! All that a woman has to do in life is stay in shape and be cool and helpful, and she’ll go FAR just by doing that. And yet many modern women complain about having to do even that bare minimum! While expecting every man to move mountains for them.

    Eve was created by God to be a HELPER to Adam. “The man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man.” She’s supposed to help him with his mission, not the other way around. The modern woman fails miserably in the helper category. Many of them wait until past child-bearing age to consider “settling down”, and nowadays, if ya’ want a companion, get a dog. This just leaves sex as the only thing that modern women offer, and thanks to feminist laws, the Christian man is faced with weighing sex vs. freedom. It’s no marvel that many of them choose freedom. And even the sex is not guaranteed, as any man in a sexless marriage can tell you.

    All of the laws and structure of this society are geared towards making the woman the head of the household. She controls the children, the man’s income, and can even have him thrown in jail on a whim of her temper tantrum. If you make marriage a bad deal for men, don’t be surprised if they don’t take the deal.

    “And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, ‘We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by your name, to take away our reproach.'” (Isaiah 4:1)

  95. Scott October 11, 2013 at 2:33 pm #

    The fact that some women have commented here that they haven’t realized the feminization of Men in America is a good indication of what’s wrong in our society.

    There’s no problem if I don’t notice it, right?

    A quick trip to Russia and you’ll know what I’m talking about.

  96. Frustrated October 11, 2013 at 4:17 pm #

    @ Gabriel

    “And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, ‘We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by your name, to take away our reproach.’” (Isaiah 4:1)

    This verse was referring to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Second Temple in 70AD, in which all the men were killed by the sword, and the surviving women were desparate for any remaining men to take care of them.

    It is evidenced by a Vespasian Coin the Romans created to celebrate their victory and capture of Judea, which “shows a female seated right in an attitude of mourning at the base of a palm tree.”

    “The female figure may reflect the prophecy of Isaiah 3:8, 25-26: “For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen … Thy men shall fall by the sword and thy mighty in the war. And her gates shall lament and mourn, and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaea_Capta_coinage

    http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.asp?PubID=BSBA&Volume=36&Issue=1&ArticleID=27

    http://www.bible-history.com/sketches/ancient/judea-capta-medal.html

    The women in those verses weren’t seeking men out of any love or respect for those men, but for their own selfish desires to improve their own circumstances and find social legitimacy in life through marriage to (and childbearing with) the few remaining men in Jerusalem after the war.

    Back then, women actually needed men to survive, and they knew they had no social status without a husband, so they needed to sweeten their deal in order to convince one of those few surviving men to take-on the added responsibility of a wife, especially if several other single women were competing for that same spot.

    If you are going to use that verse to celebrate the idea of several women “magically realizing they were wrong and surrendering their power to men,” then you’re dreaming. Women don’t do that. Plus, if they were to suddenly seek out one man, then either you and every other man you know would have already been killed by a sword, or you’re somehow big, strong, smart, and skilled enough to have already survived a whole Roman Army attack, which could be very unlikely.

    Context is everything.

  97. mghow_Masculinist October 11, 2013 at 8:06 pm #

    “Aunt Haley October 10, 2013 at 9:02 pm #

    Regular readers–

    This blog post got linked at a MGTOW forum, hence all the “women suck/spend your life alone” whinery and self-congratulations from commenters whose names I don’t recognize.”

    The truth does not care where this blog post got linked to and it just sounds like you’d prefer regular readers who have no idea what is really going on to post (in agreement).

    I don’t see how the most sensible and life preserving option of enjoying your own time is whinery. When a woman can falsely accuse a man without evidence and have him jailed, advising men to avoid such potential issues is anything but whinery, it is common sense.

    Perhaps you would have felt more comfortable if more men were upset or alarmed at the lack of dating.

  98. Liam October 12, 2013 at 5:19 am #

    Well, I don’t really see the point in dating – for the average guy. College is probably the best locale for a young man to meet women who not only strike his physical fancy, but are compatible with his personality and the school enviroment probably makes her feel comfortable around her(there’s always a whole bunch of white knights to come to her rescue if she feels like the guy is creepy).

    Yet, the only men who are successful with women – and I’m not talking about becoming a womans’ Best Male Friend aka emotional tampon – are the tall, muscular, tanned blond surfers who barely have to utter a sentence to have pretty much all the women interested in them.

    I remember when I was in college. I was a decent-looking guy, of average-height, build, full-head of hair, and so on. I had great conversationalist skills, every guy and gal I would met would soon add me to their social group and I would have to move from one place to the other place to actively participate in all the social circles I had become a part of.

    I was quite charming and charismatic. Women loved to be around me. They’d laugh at every thing I said, they’d touch me and flirt with me and they’d want to spend all their time with me, but sadly I am not a 6’2” muscle-bound Brad Pitt, which meant that, I would leave college without a ONS or a relationship.

    Now, don’t take it wrongly. I wasn’t giving my attention to 18 year old blonde Angelina Jolies. Obviously I was the most attracted to the best-looking women but I’ve always thought with my upper head and I knew I had no chances with the icing of the cake.

    I would focus my attention on average-to cute women. I was even equally entertaining and interested in women whom my friends would reject to chase after the mythical perfect Angelina Jolie who had only eyes for the most Alpha of Alpha males, The Alexander The Great of the campus.

    Anyway. As I was saying. I wasn’t aiming for women out of my league. I was working my way inside the ”below-average” to attractive girls from those social circles I had joined.

    It was pointless. They’d flirt with me, alright. Most people thought I was an item with x girl, but each time the Alpha male(s) showed up, the women would forget my existence and they’d lock eyes and lust with the surfer boy or the Bad boy, or the rich dude whose dad is a big oil executive.

    In the end, a handful of men slept and dated nearly all of the women. The few whomen who weren’t deemed good enough to be part of the Alpha, I did try to get with them, and I was honestly attracted to them(there’s always something about a woman, her smile, the way she laughs, whatever it is, that can make a man attracted to her and respectful of her essence as a woman.) but they felt they’d be settling with average good o’l me.

    When I got my degrees, I entered the working world. The women were either married or they were too busy to date. So I spent my 20’s without a date, at all. As I was entering my mid 30’s, I was hired by a big time hospital to work as a surgeon and I got to learn from one of the great ones.

    That’s when women began to notice me. Mid 30’s and 40-something women were suddenly interested in a rising star, but after a lifetime of being denied physical intimacy and being used as an emotional tampon made me invulnerable to what remained of their beauty – and being in constant contact with attractive-very attractive women in their 20’s made me immune to what what beautiful women can make men feel, and do – thus I was aware of women’s intentions.

    they wanted access to my income, my houses and my cars. I don’t mind helping people – I entered the healthcare field because I want to make a difference – but mom and dad raised no fool.

    I hold nothing against women, truth be told. They were just following their biological imperatives when they were chasing the Alpha males. Yet, I’m not interested in becoming a meal ticket and I’ve stopped talking to women, looking at women, or even noticing their existence. I go from work to my home. There are no more women in my social circles and I satisfy my sexual urges via adult films content.

    I actively avoid women and I make it so that my friends are aware that I have no interest in meeting women. Regardless of her age, good-looks or not, income, education, or societal/industrial/economical background.

    I did get a vasectomy done a few years back. I never planned on meeting women again, but you have no idea how many high-end escorts haunt the places where medical conventions take place at. I must protect myself and my assets from vultures. I’m still a young, healthy man, but I’ve already writen my Will; in it, I leave all my money, houses and so forth to young boys, military schools, and gender-seperated educational frames.

    Men must be educated on the nature of sexual dynamics. All women are only attracted to Brad Pitts and even if you look like Tom Cruise, if you ain’t a rich kid from Yale who also happens to be tall, you are going to be rejected and ignored by 100% of the women you meet – American women, foreign women, Asian women. It matters not.

    The time for men to grow-up and achieve our true potential. We must stop feeding women’s all-consuming need for male attention whereas the Bad Boys are only expected to satisfy the woman’s sexual needs.

    Yeah, I was superficially ressentful of the dominance these Alpha males have over the female collective. Nevertheless almost two decades after my first heartbreak, I am at a level most men will never reach and I’m highly regarded by even the best of the best.

    Meanwhile, the Alpha males are washed-out, are paying child-support, have to deal with their aging women, and can no longer attract young women because of how worn-out they are from the hubris of following their sexual urges.

    No love? Ah, I am deeply in love with freedom, and in this moment in time, I feel more alive than Apollo and Zeus.

  99. patriarchal landmine October 12, 2013 at 8:16 am #

    it’s no “crisis” to 20 something sluts who are doing some carousel riding/branch swinging.

    at least… it’s not a crisis right this very moment. it will be though, very very soon.

  100. patriarchal landmine October 12, 2013 at 8:59 am #

    does anyone else find it mystifying that this broad made a post demanding that men explain why they refuse to date women, and when men show up to answer her question she just tries to make fun of them?

    that’s why men refuse to date.

  101. deti October 12, 2013 at 10:43 am #

    Haley:

    “ This blog post got linked at a MGTOW forum, hence all the “women suck/spend your life alone” whinery and self-congratulations from commenters whose names I don’t recognize.”

    Uh, Haley, you put a post up talking about why people (specifically, men) don’t seem interested in dating.

    Then men show up to explain it to you in painstaking detail.

    So, explaining men’s side of the story is “whining”?

    Here’s what Morpheus cogently explained over at JustFourGuys.com:

    “In the end, women don’t want to hear men “complain” about what bothers them in dating/mating. It is simply much easier to accuse the guys of being bitter, or misogynists, or they have small penises, or whatever, the list of deflections is endless.”

  102. Deti Fan October 12, 2013 at 1:42 pm #

    @ Deti

    Thank you!

    @ Haley (and all women in general)

    Even when men “complain,” we have valid points.
    Women shouldn’t disregard those points just because they don’t want to hear them.

    All women should “Woman-Up,” learn from, and address these genuine points of contention men have with women.

    They are not the petty complaints of a few to ignore.
    They are the legitimate grievances of most men that most women must address before men become willing to pursue dating/marriage again!!!

    Otherwise, women should expect more men to forgo dating/matrimony with them altogether.

    Men have already tried to make changes that please women.
    Society and its misandrist laws are a testament to how much men have already reorganized and rearranged our lives to make women “happier,” and we’re done! No more!

    If you don’t want to hear men “complaining,” then don’t give men legitimate reasons to complain.

    The ball is in your court, ladies!

    Your actions created our resentment, bitterness, and distrust, and only your actions can fix them.

    It’s time for you to get to work, and fix the damage you caused.

    Proverbs 9:13 AMP
    [13] The foolish woman is noisy; she is simple and open to all forms of evil, she willfully and recklessly knows nothing whatever of eternal value.

    Proverbs 14:1 AMP
    [1] EVERY WISE woman builds her house, but the foolish one tears it down with her own hands.

  103. reacher October 12, 2013 at 2:03 pm #

    What Haley meant to say was, “Fuck you guys who got heartbroken or got tired of being rejected, stop whining, I only made a post talking about why people don’t want to date because I wanted cheerleaders to back me up and go ‘yeah, those guys need to man up, stop playing videogames and watching porn, and ask us mature real women out!’ I don’t actually care why guys don’t want to date, because the system favors me, so why should I care why guys get burned and stop trying to date?”

  104. Scott October 12, 2013 at 2:08 pm #

    And the men speak up…

    women, I hope you are listening…

  105. Andrea October 12, 2013 at 3:10 pm #

    I read this website because there is more of a man’s POV on here regularly–particularly in the comments. It’s painful to read at times, but I try to learn from it. Honest critique is good. Nuclear dismissal of all women, on the other hand, is not particularly helpful, especially to those of us who do conscientiously try to avoid causing bitterness and hurt to men.

    Most comments/posters in the past have given honest critique; this thread, however, has majored on nuclear dismissals. I can’t learn from a commenter who essentially says that women/modern women are completely rotten and evil–I have nowhere to start in the fixing process. I can’t change the laws single-handedly. I can’t change society single-handedly. So I’m stuck operating within the current framework, which means if I’m friendly to you, you think I’m eyeing your wallet. If I’m not friendly, I’m alpha chasing. If I have a career, I’m a feminist, if I don’t, I probably want to marry a rich guy so I can divorce/ruin him and be financially independent.

    Can you see–just a little–why this thread hasn’t met with appreciative responses from women?

  106. reacher October 12, 2013 at 3:25 pm #

    Andrea, there *are* some ridiculous comments, where the guy basically says all girls want money or are alpha sluts, blah blah blah. Bad comments because they are too flat out, no logic and clear specific reasoning and… well, reason.

    Problem is, there’s plenty of normal comments by sane guys who are just saying, “I don’t date because xyz.” Dating isn’t easy, and I note that the vast majority of women will never ask guys out themselves–both because they don’t have to, and they are too afraid. And even more comically, I’ve read plenty of comments from women “I asked one guy out and got crushed so I never will again.”

    Yet women expect that men will be fine getting rejected multiple times in a row, or get flaked on, have girls beat around the bush and mess with them, and just keep asking girls out, etc. And when they’re not? Women like Haley make posts about how men need to ask women out and then mock guys who are burned and try to say why they don’t date.

    I remember a cartoon from when I was a little tyke… “Nah, elephants ain’t got no feelings, they’re made of rubber!”

  107. bramlet October 12, 2013 at 6:28 pm #

    I think I have it all figured out here. I’ve had some wine, so bare with me. To find love there must be some compromise. A woman wants the most attractive man on the earth to impregnate her and the richest man on earth to pay her bills. A man wants to impregnate all the attractive women on the earth. In order to find love we must have a balance, a woman says well maybe you are not the most attractive man on the earth but I’ll let you impregnate me. The man says well maybe I can stop in my quest to impregnate every attractive woman on the earth. We call this love or something. The problem here is 80% of the woman think they absolutely deserve somebody in the top 20% of men to impregnate them. These top 20% of men are happy to oblige, and tend to have 4 different girls a week. The other 80% of the men who aren’t getting any sex get to pay through the tax code or by becoming a beta provider. This needs to stop.

  108. Johno October 12, 2013 at 11:59 pm #

    I don’t date simply because it puts me in a position of weakness. I get laid far more by NOT dating. Anytime I took a woman out on a proper date, she would flake on me. Yet, as I said – women whom I did not date, provided me with sex. The other thing is, white women are stuck up and pretty entitled these days. They are extremely spoiled and difficult to deal with – usually after a couple months I get tired of their BS, all they want to do is argue, and if they have nothing to argue about, then they make something up to be indignant about.

    I don’t really care to pursue a relationship – it’s tiresome shit man, and there really is no return on the investment except grief. The last date I went on, she started talking about rape and how the definition of rape needs to be expanded, and then started going on about how some guy who rubbed up against her once many years ago was rape……that was my queue – to eject. I got the hell away from that woman immediately.

    Then there was the woman who I dated for about 6 or 7 months who would get jealous of time I spent with my daughter and actively tried to interfere with my relationship with my daughter. She even got mad and gave me grief for about 45 minutes when she found out I took my daughter to the museum.

    Tell me, in what world does some entitled white bitch whom I’ve only dated for a few months get off trying to dictate my relationship with my own flesh and blood? Think about that – jealous of my daughter!!

    That’s why I don’t date, because modern women are not worth it.

  109. cleo October 13, 2013 at 3:05 pm #

    Very good thread. It really hit home with me. As a bachelor male at 45, I have little motivation to date despite all the online dating sites. I agree perhaps with so much porn and nudity on the internet even for free, it does weaken the motivation and eats up your energy. Imagine how it was back in the 1800’s or even more recent. There was no internet for a man to masturbate to. He almost had to go date there was no other option. Perhaps that was a better more simpler time and easier to find a companion. The internet with so much online porn has sort of ruined dating. There is no motivation for men anymore,

    This is how I see it, There is a period of peak years in a male during his lifetime that are prime for mating. He is at his peak emotionally and sexually. Life and its many disappointments hasn’t burnt him out or jaded him. For many men these peak years are usually in the late 20’s up until the 30’s. After that, with all the letdowns, rejections, and missed opportunities it is easy to become bitter and “give up” on the dating scene. oreoer, it is so easy at this stage to be very resentful at women and have the mindset “you rejected me for the bad boys in my peak fertile years, I’ll reject you now that your older and more desperate”.

    When a man realizes he is jaded on dating it can be a very devastating thing. After all our society places much emphasis on being coupled as normal and acceptable. A bachelor male is still seen as an outcast in many circles. A man who has dropped out of the dating pool sees lust so easy to get on the internet that sex with a real woman can become boring. It is a different time to be a man. Perhaps this will really turn into a crisis for society the MGTOW movement. The main thing is for bachelor men to be try to be happy in their singleness and not let society tell you how you should be.

  110. cleo October 14, 2013 at 7:37 am #

    I do want to add that there are scores of information especially on the internet how pornography is destroying the natural male libido and is causing multitudes of men to have erectile deficiency. A man can get so used to porn and masturbating on his own that he cannot get erect/aroused with a real woman. This is a big problem indeed.

    I think for some people they are just destined to gave the traditional ‘American dream life”. That is to go to college or start a business and by the mid to late twenties they meet a woman and have a big wedding and then kids and life in the suburbs. Unfortunately now half of all marriages end in divorce and most people on internet dating sites are products of at least one divorce.

    For whatever reason for the rest of the men who circumstances weren’t good enough to meet a woman or have some type of emotional problems stemming from a dysfunctional family in childhood this could be a bitter pill to swallow. Relationships take work and can be difficult as well as joyful. For some men who were either emotionally abused or neglected in childhood it is rather difficult to connect with another human being especially a female

    So for a lot of men post 40 years old, wake up one day and the realization that your jaded and burnt either by porn or failed opposite sex relationship -that you will be single your whole life. You cannot go back and undo that past. While you can accept the present and go forward you still cannot do what is done, Some men may have this realization in their 20’s and 30’s based on some comments here.

    The shame is many of these men that will never know what it is like to have a marriage and/or long term relationship with a female. Women in a way will always some type of mystery to these men.
    If circumstances were different, and parents were more loving, and there was no such thing as dysfunctional families in a make believe world-these men would be great “marriage material. These are not ugly loser men. I know so I am one and know more than a few bachelor mgtow men. These are attractive, financially secure good character men who for reasons stated above stemming from childhood, will never ever experience what a marriage is like and genuine intimacy with a woman,. What a shame not only for some men who would like to go back and change the past but for so many single females out there who just want to date/meet good men. This is why there are so many articles of recent with some type of theme of single women asking “Where are all the good men? What a shame indeed.

  111. anon October 14, 2013 at 11:20 am #

    @ andrea

    I totally understand your pov. Not to pile on here, but one thing I’ve noticed often in women is they tend to take a lot of arguments as very personal attacks.

    In the “manosphere” I believe this is referred to as solipsism, but I don’t know if that’s really the right term. What I’m trying to say is, despite a lot of men here talking about their bad experiences and subsequent poor outlook towards today’s women, in most cases that is NOT a reflection on you personally. Most men would be overjoyed to find you an exception. So, hard as it may be, try not to view this as a hostile crowd to you specifically (there are some bad apple commenters of course).

    As for what could be learned here, one thing I would say for women is, if you understand men’s plight and sympathize in any way, a big step would be assuming some of the risk of dating. Easiest way (in theory, perhaps not in practice) is to ask guys out!

    The common reaction girls have to that advice is “no that’s too uncomfortable, I don’t like putting myself out there” – well, that’s how it is for guys nowadays but multiplied by a ton! For men, the risk of rejection is so high and even the risk of acceptance followed by a failed relationship is high (all the complaints you hear about nuclear rejections, accusations of being a predator, frivorce & alimony, etc). Both sides see it as too risky hence the lack of dating.

    But if you assume a part of the risk by making the first advance, now in the guy’s mind a big chunk of all the possible negative outcomes of attempting a relationship are removed. He’s willing to go in, you’re willing to go in, it’s a tale as old as time, etc.

  112. jlw October 14, 2013 at 11:37 am #

    Mid-40s virgin here. No woman has ever touched me unless it was in her job description. Short, ugly, poor, introverted. Porn saved my life and served as the bridge to get me through my teens and early 20s. Now I am a reasonably successful small town title lawyer and adjunct professor at the local university. I am in that category of low-sexual market value men who can’t get it up for a real woman in our league. Know what? I don’t care. My life is rich with friendships outside the sexual realm. Mostly with men as I have a lot more in common with them.

    And dating? Dating went out with poodle skirts and soda jerks. You don’t need us? That’s fine and dandy. We don’t need you either. Each of us can stand on our own feet and chase our dreams under our own power.

  113. galloper6 October 14, 2013 at 12:08 pm #

    I major part of love is belief you have found an exception to the rule. When you belive she is above your market value, that she ignores your shortcomings that lower your market value and will stick aroung in hard times, she is priced above rubies. She aint no Carrie Bradshaw impersonator.

  114. whatnews October 14, 2013 at 12:34 pm #

    “for a potential romantic relationship”

    As several comments above have noted, the “potential romantic relationship” translates as “commitment and investment” and from the point of view of most men there is not much motivation to do that, and for most women I guess it is similar but for different reasons.

    Let’s summarize my impression of the point of view of women:

    * Hooking up no strings attached is fun, but only with very attractive men; but for truly committed Christian women it is not an option.

    * Other than hooking up, nearly all women are interested in a committed relationship with a very good catch, in which all the commitment and investment is from the man, and the woman decides unilaterally on major relationship choices, like sexual activities or whether to have children, as otherwise they feel abused or not motivated. This is the model promoted forcefully by many Christian churches.

    For men there are three cases:

    * Hooking up no strings attached is fun, but takes a lot of time and energy. But for very committed Christian men it is not an option.

    * Many men are interested in committing to and investing into a relationship with a woman who makes a reciprocal investment of similar worth, such as bearing their children giving some assurance of fidelity and paternity.

    * Some men accept to a relationshit with a woman where only they provide commitment and investment, and she makes unilaterally all major decisions. At least 50% of these end very badly for the man, and less badly, but still badly, for the woman too, but that won’t stop her.

    The only overlapping situations are

    * The one requiring no investment from either side: hookups with no strings attached between most women and a few attractive men, and indeed that is very common, except for committed Christian people.

    * The one where only the man provides commitment and investment, and the woman makes all major relationshit decisions.

    Knowing the risk/reward ratio between those two, many men find “a potential romantic relationship” insufficiently motivating to invest in dating aimed at it, and even many of the few men attractive enough that women eagerly pursue for no strings attached hookups find them insufficiently motivating.

    Note the problem is not fear of rejection: rejection usually costs very little. It is when men are not rejected that can be far more damaging.

    When relationships and sex involved huge risks for women, usually an expensive unfunded pregnancy, or much reduced status, they would not do them unless funding was assured via a strictly enforced financial contract (“marriage”) which also provided status, and there were strictly enforced laws for damages for breaking of the promise of such a contract.

  115. whatnews October 14, 2013 at 12:54 pm #

    “Wondering if guys would really care about her as a person, or whether she’d be an item crossed off on their life checklist”

    What’s wrong with “life checklist” items? Especially if you are a Christian, forming a family and having children can be considered a duty, and indeed it is often a heavy burden.

    “(aka: “Find hot wife to give me cute kids and make me gloriously happy”).”

    Ah now I understand, your attitude, both as a to checklist items and this statement looks very likely to be projection onto men of an attitude very popular in very many women: that it is the major life checklist item to secure commitment and investment (“marriage”) from a handsome, confident good catch who is going to give her the best genetics for her children and also treat her like a princess, and then leave her a financially secure widow (or divorcee).

    For men, it is mostly a duty, and the dream is usually, among men, described as “find wife who won’t let herself go too much, will have children mostly with me, and will add only little stress to my life”.

  116. whatnews October 14, 2013 at 1:10 pm #

    I feel also the need to quote here a Roman censor and consul who made a speech to the Roman Senate in 131 BC, probably the earliest record in western history of the “can’t leave with them, can’t live without them” argument:

    http://www.unrv.com/government/julianmarriage.php
    Speech of the censor Quintus Caecilius Metellus Macedonicus about the law requiring men to marry in order to produce children.
    According to Livy (Per. 59), in 17 B.C. Augustus read out this speech, which seemed “written for the hour”, in the Senate in support of his own legislation encouraging marriage and childbearing (see no. 121).

    “If we could survive without a wife, citizens of Rome, all of us would do without that nuisance; but since nature has so decreed that we cannot live peacefully with them, nor live in any way without them, we must plan for our lasting preservation rather than for our temporary pleasure.”

    Note that Roman Law and culture was not particularly “progressive”, yet Roman men were still rather reluctant to meet the massive expectations for commitment and investment of Roman women.

  117. whatnews October 14, 2013 at 1:46 pm #

    I was quite amused by the idea that pornography is destroying the natural male libido and is causing multitudes of men to have erectile deficiency, because probably the most common reason for erectile deficiency is a politically incorrect situation: that the middle aged wives of the multitudes of middle aged men with alleged erectile deficiency are not attractive enough to trigger a hard-on. The vast majority of those men would have little difficulty getting it hard for much younger women who look hot-fertile and don’t smell “old maid”.

    The great erectile deficiency story has come about “coincidentally” as:

    Marriages between people of the same age have become more common, instead of traditional ones with the bride around 5-10 years younger than the groom.

    Middle aged and post-menopausal women have decided that they too are owed glorious fucks with many orgasms, regardless of age or preservation or attitude, also as a way to feel younger and desired.

    Very importantly middle aged post-menopausal women are routinely given hormone replacement therapy, which makes them rather horny, unlike ever before in the past; but it does nothing to restore their fertility looks or to remove the “old maid” smell.

    Since it is always a man’s fault when a woman does not get what she wants or needs or both, Viagra/Cialis/… have been invented to overcome men’s physiological response to undesirable women. To some extent it is complementary to HRT.

    Therefore middle aged men have been pressured and shamed to medicate themselves so they can close their eyes and hold their noses and service the needs and vanity of their not-so-fuckable middle aged or menopausal wives. OR ELSE!

    All that said, it is true that A man can get so used to porn and masturbating on his own that he cannot get erect/aroused with a real woman. but that can be cured almost always very easily by giving up masturbation for a some days or a week.

    It is caused not by porn but by frequent masturbation, as masturbation is usually done with too much pressure which desensitizes the penis, but not permanently, it goes back to normal after a short while.

  118. GI_JANE October 15, 2013 at 2:10 pm #

    And let’s not forget that men want thin women and in America 2/3’rds are overweight or obese.

    Then consider how many are under 40 and unmarried.

    So all the men are running after the same 20% of women.

  119. Lurker0001 October 16, 2013 at 6:59 am #

    4 Words. Lack of common sense. Explains a lot.

  120. Richard Cook October 16, 2013 at 12:29 pm #

    Yes Haley, you are part of ‘that’ crowd.

  121. y81 October 16, 2013 at 7:23 pm #

    Gee, whatnews, you talk about middle-aged men and women having rock-hard erections and mind-shattering orgasms like it was a bad thing.

  122. Reacher October 16, 2013 at 7:35 pm #

    That is a huge point, how rampant obesity is in the USA. We really need fat shaming to help with that, both men and women…

    To the ladies, I ask, “Can you sell guys marriage?” I mean, I can sell someone a car, a handgun, body armor, etc. You ladies are upset how guys look at dating/marriage (we’ll assume magically it’s Christian no-sex dating.)

    Here’s your chance, can you sell guys marriage? Explain the pros enough that they outway cons and convince guys that it’s a thing worth doing/working for? (And it is the men who do the work in dating, let’s not delude ourselves.)

  123. GI_JANE October 16, 2013 at 9:51 pm #

    Reacher: No fat shaming is not the answer. That is just shameful that so many men think fat discrimination/hate is okay.

    Date whoever you want to date but don’t insult someone just because they don’t meet your physical standards of what you feel women should look like.

    Again, this is what I’m talking about, American men feel like dating any woman who isn’t thin is a death sentence. Therefore they are dismissing at least 66% of the women out there.

  124. nitouken October 17, 2013 at 8:17 am #

    GI_JANE

    It’s not that we think it’s a death sentence – it’s that we want to actually ENJOY dating this person. Since we’re more visual than women, appearance matters. One of the best dates I’ve ever had was with a very large woman, but the reason I went out with her is because she had convinced me she was awesome in other ways. (It didn’t go anywhere, but that was because we would have stabbed each other – we’re both political activists, but on opposite sides of nearly every issue.) It’s not that men WON’T date fat women. It’s that the hurdle of being fat is much higher for women than it is for men. Much in the same way, the hurdle of being poor is much higher for men than it is for women.

  125. jz October 17, 2013 at 1:12 pm #

    Question for Whatnews,
    Please explain why older men use Viagra to visit prostitutes.

    Answer:
    aging of their sympathetic nervous system.

    Some men hasten the erectile decline with decades of hypertension, diabetes, smoking, and bad genes. But, even the erections of healthy 55 year old men are dwindled compared to their 22 year old selves. Beyond the late 40s, most men can not maintain an erection while using a condom. The turgor, length, girth, and refractory period dwindle.

  126. Reacher October 17, 2013 at 4:55 pm #

    GI Jane,

    The 66% of overweight women in American can either get used to being ignored/getting chased only by desperate losers, along with skyrocketing their chances of dying of cancer, stroke, and heart disease (which are the top 3 things that kill Americans), or they can get in shape, live healthier lives, and get pursued by more men.

    I don’t know about other continents (I do know Europe isn’t nearly as obese as the USA) but here Stateside, men don’t chase whales. Tough shit. It’s how we are. It’s called gluttony in the Bible, it’s called gross when you’re dating, and it’s not attractive or healthy, and is a sign of a person who lacks the self control to stop eating so much. But guess what? It’s fixable! Yes, even you can be in great physical shape within a few months if you work for it.

    No one in their right mind is going to suggest women pursue the crowd of men who are shorter than them, overweight, and have bad jobs. Granted, I get that men who are fat disgusting slobs should suck it up and date fat disgusting women or get in shape, but American men who ARE in shape?

    LMAOLMAO! Dating is hard work enough, no MAN who is in shape is going to date a fat woman.

  127. Big Mobe (@Big_Mobe) October 20, 2013 at 9:38 am #

    “Then they go on Facebook and complain that men are shallow and don’t realize that the confident, beautiful, successful women already in their lives have A Lot To Offer.”

    The ones making statements like these are the shallow ones. They are also sexist for generalizing men.

    The vast majority of choices made by men are based on logic. In most cases we need a reason to act or not act. Those of us opting out of the game believe the possible benefits are grossly outweighed by the effort and risk associated with any activity that can lead to a long term relationship, especially marriage. So why even bother?

    Can anyone list just 5 legal reasons for man to pursue marriage? I can list plenty for a woman to divorce.

  128. Not Surprised October 20, 2013 at 1:19 pm #

    there’s a lot of butthurt men commenting on this blog. no wonder intelligent women stay away from these types of guys.

  129. archerwfisher October 20, 2013 at 3:20 pm #

    This blog post, and comments, are one nice little microcosm of church, today. The pastor (Haley) talks about guys need to “Man Up *tm” and ask the amazing women out, wonders why any wimp wouldn’t ask women out until he gets a girlfriend. The guys who are burned/jaded from dating, grumble about how dating is horrible, because they got their hearts broken, or got messed with/rejected/etc, until they didn’t want to date. Then, the older, whipped married men and women say how those guys are whiny losers, and the women are smart enough to stay away. They manage to ignore the fact that if those guys were just whiny losers, then the girls would not be complaining about how those guys aren’t asking them out.

    Did no idiot, even Haley, realize that when you ask why guys stop asking girls out, you’ll get guys recounting how some awful thing burned them to the point you wrote an article about them?

    I love how I pretty much didn’t see a single woman make some comment of, “Okay, guys are tired of getting rejected, so girls need to be blatant to show when they’re interested, or gut it up and ask guys out. Problem, solution, fixed.”

    Do the fools on this site honestly think that that insulting guys for not asking girls out (and evidently, not enough are, judging by the blog post) will make guys go, “Yeah, I’m pissed about xyz, but since women are so wonderful at saying I’m a whiny butthurt loser, that makes me want to date again”? No, it’s not nice to read posts saying you ladies are jerks, etc. That’s life. Guys take the initiative and get burned sometimes. If they stop asking you out, you ladies are in tough straits, because most of you are way too terrified to ask a guy out. It’s like this–I went on a date today. I had to plan the date, and it was on me to make it pleasant and have her feel like it was alright. Because I’m the guy. Tough shit, that’s life. Whining won’t make it easier. So I did my best to make it a pleasant time, because the girl was likeable, and cute. Beautiful eyes.

    Similarly, you ladies need guys to ask you out, and apparently Haley says a lot of them don’t care to anymore. You can insult said guys and whine about it, or you can figure out ways to make them want to ask you out again, because insulting jaded guys doesn’t make them like women. Tough shit. That’s life, deal with it.

  130. Deti Fan October 20, 2013 at 3:51 pm #

    @ Not Surprised

    “Intelligent women” should be intelligent enough to stop deflecting things they or want to hear about and consider the validity of our claims. If you presume to be among those “intelligent women,” you would want to care about the thoughts and opinions of men, but your statement indicates otherwise. In fact, most intelligent people desire continued growth, but you imply that you have nothing to learn from men here (so why visit this site, then?!) Truly intelligent people surround themselves with people they disagree with, that they might learn new perspectives, and thus increase their own understanding.

    You are just being arrogant and closed-minded.

    These “types” of guys weren’t always “butthurt”. Only after years of dating Christian women who say they “love” us but behave differently, do we “wake up” to realize this is not just a few bad women, but a much larger and ongoing trend common to most “good Christian women.”

    Christian women shouldn’t just deflect blame onto men (or “those few bad women they don’t want to be associated with”), without taking a long, honest, hard look into the mirror themselves. Anybody can point fingers, but any woman worth being in a relationship with would be intelligent and humble enough to look for and see their own sins, and deal with them, including sins against men they “love.”

    When you behave like your opinions and perspectives are “more important” than ours, and you start to judge us (as you are doing now) you are sending a clear message to men to avoid you.

    I can only hope that you are not fully aware of your disrespect, but I suspect you do, and that you just don’t really care how that disrespect effects men, because you already assume you are “better” than the men who visit this site. How arrogant!

    And that is the problem with most Christian women now. They don’t even see their own pride, arrogance, and disrespectful thoughts, attitudes, actions, and words towards men they claim to “love.”

    In short, you are part of the problem you are complaining about.

    If you don’t want men to complain about being angry, bitter, and “butthurt” from events in their past, then stop being so closed-minded, arrogant, and disrespectful to men. Open your eyes, look in the mirror, and deal with your own sins first.

    Most men, whether sought highly by women or not, share the same opinion that most women are prideful, arrogant, selfish, judgemental, and completely disrespectful. This is why marriage rates are plummeting, but women just don’t want to admit that they have any problems. They would rather point their fingers at men, deflect and shame, and hold other people responsible for their own issues. (It’s easy to assume that “complaining” men have poor success with women because you want to believe we are less desirable, but many of us have had good success with women, and we are still complaining because women really do need to change. Stop making assumptions, judging us based on those assumptions, and then trying to shame us because you are too closed-minded to listen and look humbly at yourself in the mirror.)

    How could women expect men to value you and your opinions if you are unwilling to do the same for men?!

    If relationships aren’t going to become a two-way road, in which both men and women are loved and respected, and treated with true value, and women learn to humble themselves and accept responsibility for their own problems, then men are going to continue to make the wise decisions to avoid those women and relationships.

    What you women call “complaining,” we men call a loud “wake-up call” for dramatic change.

    I challenge you to look at yourself in the mirror, and truly consider if your thoughts, attitudes, actions, and words towards the men in your life have possibly hurt some of them!
    Don’t just deflect this challenge! Ask some of the men in your life if they have ever been hurt or felt unloved and disrespected by you in any way, and then actually listen to their thoughts an opinions about those moments, without disregarding or shaming them as an excuse for your behavior. If you have hurt them in any way, then own it and fix it.

    Figure out how you are hurting the men around you (whether you would date them or not) and then deal with those sins humbly. And get over yourself! You’re not perfect either!

    You can’t say you “love” those men if you aren’t going to listen to their thoughts and change any sinful or disrespectful things in yourself.

    To love men is to treat them as they want to be treated at all times, and as Jesus would have treated them. Otherwise, it is not really loving and is sinful.

    Frankly, if a woman refuses to look humbly at herself in the mirror and deal with her own issues, instead of listing all her prideful “reasons” why she excuses her own bad behavior, then I wouldn’t even bother pursuing a relationship with her. It is not worth it, and it is not wise!

  131. Tom October 20, 2013 at 6:10 pm #

    http://www.dontmarry.com

  132. archerwfisher October 20, 2013 at 9:05 pm #

    Yeah, scratch what I just said. I tried talking to my date, and she’s not down for another date, because “you remind me of my older brother and a terrible ex-boyfried.” And she added, “That spark wasn’t there.” Nevermind she showed up about as open as a girl awaiting a high stakes job interview. Screw dating… A guy can be good looking, but having a natural “spark” truly requires practice, such as pick up artist. Unfortunately, I haven’t practiced picking up women for ONS’s enough to be suave like that.

  133. galloper6 October 21, 2013 at 4:18 pm #

    This is starting to look like a labor strike, when the workers believe they are getting a raw deal and stop working.

  134. archerwfisher October 21, 2013 at 7:36 pm #

    Not quite.

    We Christian guys got a million messages about how girls aren’t sex objects, don’t try to hookup on first dates, etc. So we practiced it. But because we’re not putting the moves on to screw the girl in 45 minutes, we get rejected as boring, because she’s used to veterans who spent 4 months and many bars learning to be pros and know how to “put that spark there” to make the girl all moist right away.

    “How could they lie to us?!” Guys like me wail as we get rejected every time we actually want to get to know the girl.

    It wasn’t a lie, that was the foreplay. And now we’re fucked.

  135. galloper6 October 21, 2013 at 9:12 pm #

    Churches now seem to be 2 gerations behind in courting strategies. By teaching the young to be a wuz or a frump we set them up to fail. I believe in the old days there was a lot less competition from players because the were ejected often violently from communties that were more tight knit than they are now.

  136. GI_JANE October 21, 2013 at 10:25 pm #

    Women and men expect sex.

    So if your not a man who’s not asking the girl for it, or a girl who is trying the traditional route (of waiting) your screwed.

    The current world favors the very people the church warned us not to be.

  137. The_Collapsar October 23, 2013 at 9:29 am #

    This article and thread are amazing simply because they confirm pretty much every manospherian teaching about Churchianity, female solipsism, women’s lack of empathy for men, etc. Women, if men don’t want to ask you out, perhaps you should work to make them want to? Attacking them certainly isn’t going to do the trick – all that will do is create more MGTOWs – which, judging by this article, isn’t what you want.

  138. Mghow_Masculinist October 24, 2013 at 8:00 am #

    @ galloper6

    You said:

    ‘This is starting to look like a labor strike, when the workers believe they are getting a raw deal and stop working.’

    You may have missed something there, when there is a strike, the workers plan to come back when things have changed for the better. If you take a look around, you will perhaps start to notice that many MGTOW are not on strike, they have opted out period. They have no plans to return regardless.

    They say ‘Man-Up’, many have simply ‘Manned out’. In almost every single discussion such as this whether it is on forums, youtube or in life, Ive noticed that so often the women deflect questions, shift blame, attempt shaming tactics and in short, they simply confirm exactly the reasons why so many men are opting out.

    I am not one of the burned out guys who have had terrible experiences with women, I have not had failed marriages or lost a house to a divorce or any other of the terrible accounts Ive heard and I am not bitter.

    It is simply illogical to invest in something that is a guaranteed loss, add to that the fact that there is an anti male undercurrent in the oceans of society, why would a man chose to swim out to meet a shark disguised as an ally. Better to set sale and just go your own way.

  139. Frank Wunder October 24, 2013 at 4:58 pm #

    @Mghow_Masculinist

    It’s set “sail” and I agree with you 100%.

    All actions have reactions and the MGTOW is a reaction to the actions of women. A man who chooses to go his own way has made that choice for a reason. From the beginning of time one of the primary functions of a man is to make choices based on the situations and circumstances facing them. A man choosing to go his own way is not a spontaneous, emotionally driven decision, but rather, a moral choice based on long-term consequences and an understanding that their physical, spiritual and mental well-being can be seriously damaged. And women know how to inflict said damage, so the math is not fuzzy at all: the risks are too great and the damages too severe.

    There is just too much uncertainty surrounding the modern relationship and there is no guarantee that love will last a lifetime or be equally shared or valued between two people.

    I folded a long time ago and left the game completely and I have no regrets or second thoughts. It was the best decision I ever made.

  140. deti October 26, 2013 at 12:42 pm #

    Haley:

    This comment from Badger at Alpha Game seems particularly apropos:

    “-The kind of women interested in reading a dating blog find the male style of frank, direct communication (and in fact the reality itself of the male locker room) to be deeply unsettling.
    -Women aren’t going to change what they like in a man. There were so many stories of the same script that I lost count: “I took your advice and met this really great beta guy but he’s like, you know, he’s just beta…” with a curdled lip of disattraction.

    “Women have tried shaming alpha men into being more relationship-friendly – all that did was make beta guys more beta, alpha men don’t listen to that stuff or they co-opt it a la Hugh Schwyzer. They have tried to hint and cajole the beta men into being more manly, but that confused the beta men even more, disequipped as they are to deal with the indirect and pluralistic female communication style (e.g. shit tests and “just get it”). They’ve tried telling themselves to adjust what they value and find attractive in men, but that has predictably failed. Susan [Walsh at Hooking Up Smart] has tried all of them, and her even still flip-flopping stances suggests none of them have stuck with her core audience.”

    I’m seeing this pattern repeat itself over and over at manosphere-friendly (and formerly friendly) blogs run by women:

    1. Blog hostess posts her perplexity about some aspect of intersexual relations or about men.

    2. Men materialize at said site to answer blog hostess’ queries with varying degrees of pointedness and frankness.

    3. Bloghost calls men whiners and complainers.

    4. Women materialize at said site to pile on.

    I’m finally learning that most women on dating/mating/intergender relations blogs are asking questions they don’t really want men to answer; or to which they don’t really want honest answers.

    I’ve learned that to women, men talking publicly about their dating/mating/marriage problems and difficulties is synonymous with “whining” and “complaining” and “sour grapes” and “bitterness”. In the Christian context, men discussing their marriage problems is synonymous with “well, you’re just not properly submitted to God” or “your prayer life probably sucks” or “you wouldn’t have these problems if you were leading your wife and loving her as Christ loved the Church.”

    Even legitimate grievances are dismissed out of hand as petty bitching, self-inflicted, or richly deserved . I’m hearing versions of this more and more:

    1. “well, dude, if you’re in that position, you must have done something to bring it on yourself.”

    2. “That SMV chart was produced by a disgruntled guy who hates women.”

    .3. “the guys who are dissatisfied with their marriages or who got divorced? Well, they just chose poorly. They should have chosen better or been more careful. So, guys, if you’re unhappy in your marriage or got divorced, it’s YOUR fault.”

    IN the end, women simply do not want to hear or see men talk about these things. Ever. At all. They don’t want to hear it even from their husbands. They don’t want to hear it even when they SAY they want to hear it, a la Haley’s OP above saying “Gee, how come it is that men are just weirdly disinterested in women? I wonder why that is?”

    Quite simply, it horrifies women when men respond, loudly, over and over again, that “we want you; it’s just that we’ve figured out that you don’t want the vast majority of us. We’re tired of banging our heads against that wall and making no headway at all, and we’ve run the cost benefit analysis, and made the rational decision that it’s not worth it”.

    Men are also tired of saying it and having it fall on deaf ears and seeing that nothing is changing. If anything, it’s far, far worse now than when I was growing up in the 1980s. So, since women are not internalizing it when men SAY it, now, it seems, that men DOING something about it (GTOW, learning Game, refusing to commit, refusing to offer marriage, ending bad marriages) is juuuuust now starting to make a dent, to fierce and furious pushback from most women.

    This is simply one more example of a blogstress asking a question she knew the answer to, but then recoiled when the answers she knew were coming were put down in written form.

  141. Aunt Haley October 26, 2013 at 1:33 pm #

    deti–

    I’m seeing this pattern repeat itself over and over at manosphere-friendly (and formerly friendly) blogs run by women:

    1. Blog hostess posts her perplexity about some aspect of intersexual relations or about men.

    2. Men materialize at said site to answer blog hostess’ queries with varying degrees of pointedness and frankness.

    3. Bloghost calls men whiners and complainers.

    4. Women materialize at said site to pile on.

    No, this is typically what happens:

    1. Blog hostess reads men’s blogs all centered around the idea that MEN NEED SEX WITH WOMEN TO LIVE/BE SANE/NOT BE PSYCHOLOGICALLY DAMAGED/etc., and how to procure sex. It is such a burning need that these men are DESPERATE to do anything to help them have more sex.

    2. Men at such blogs say that women who are not fat get hit on CONSTANTLY and can get alphas for sex with no problem.

    3.. Blog hostess does not experience being hit on constantly nor being solicited for sex by alphas.

    4. Blog hostess writes about how men supposedly are desperate for sex but in day-to-day interactions with men, the men seem sterile and uninterested in women.

    5. Male red pill junkies materialize en masse at blog to shout down blog hostess for being an entitled princess who deserves no love past the age of 29 because she rejected men during her hot years/she’s probably fat/she’s hit the wall/she used to be a slut/hobbies are better than women/solitude is better than women/all women are going to divorce rape their husbands/Ukrainian women are sweet and lovely but American women are fat and belligerent/etc.

    6. Blog hostess starts tuning out all the whining because it sounds like one giant cacophonous copypasta, and bitter men crying about how women are mean to them is never attractive.

    7. Male red pill junkies regroup and dogpile even more on blog hostess, reminding her that she doesn’t care about men, doesn’t understand men, will never understand men, doesn’t want to listen to men, will never be as smart as men, will never be as grateful as men, will never be as wonderful as men, etc., and refuse to let the hostess have the last word on her own blog.

  142. deti October 26, 2013 at 1:48 pm #

    Another thing I’ve learned is that women are not going to change what they like in a man or find attractive in him. (Note that I’m not talking about what women WANT in a man; which is decidedly different from what they like or find attractive.) Dalrock and even Susan Walsh and others have written much on how women can adjust what they like, adjust attraction triggers, change what they value, change venues to calibrate who they meet and under what circumstances etc. In the end it’s not going to work.

    And it’s not working because men have figured out, finally, that most of us are just not attractive to most women. We’re just not. And most women have made that loud and clear by their conduct.

    We as a society, men and women alike, are going to have to deal with this problem:

    “We men want you; it’s just that we know you don’t want most of us and you don’t need us. So since we’re not wanted and needed, we’re going to live for ourselves, we’re not offering marriage or commitment. And we’re not going to listen to parents or pastors or Church deacons or Christian men’s groups or blog hostesses at dating/mating/game-related blogs shame us with “man up” rants or try to define for us what being a man is.”

    Right now, the way our society is dealing with this is by kicking the can down the road: Women marrying later after carouseling it up; men waiting for said carouseling to end. Church waving its hands and bleating at men to man up and marry the sluts; and love her like Christ loved the Church even when she treats you with hatred and seething contempt. Women complaining about “where are all the good men” while curdling up her lip and turning up her nose at the disattraction at all the men at work and at church, while at the same time turning men down left and right.

    The way we’re dealing with it is that men are standing around waiting until the women finish their carousel riding or watching, either by force or by choice. Women are choosing the carousel until they choose to step off or are kicked off. A lot of men are waiting; a growing number have quit waiting; a smaller number are vying to be the horses on the carousel.

    But this can’t last forever, because the money isn’t there to keep the carousel running. And the money isn’t there for a number of reasons, mostly because the men aren’t out there earning it.

    This is a nearly insoluble problem as things currently exist. Most men aren’t attractive to most women. That means a lot of men are not going to get married, ever; and will live in lifetime celibacy or close to it. It also means that the men who do marry are at about a 50% risk of getting divorced. It also means much, much less productivity from men.

    For women, it means learning the hard way that they are hot enough for sex, but not valuable enough for marriage. (Carousel riding is rampant among Christian women as well as secular women.) It means consigning themselves to lifetimes of work in jobs that men used to do. It also means more women will never marry; and those who do will wait too long and won’t marry men they find attractive.

  143. deti October 26, 2013 at 2:15 pm #

    Haley, your comment at 1:33 pm literally proved my points.

    You don’t want to hear men talk about their dating/marriage problems. You don’t. It repulses and frightens you. You even responded as if on cue with shaming: In your paragraph 6, you called the commenters “bitter men crying about how women are mean to them” and that it” is never attractive”.

    We KNOW it’s not attractive. Most of us are not attractive to most of you anyway.

    You even admitted you don’t want to hear men talk about these issues: “ Blog hostess starts tuning out all the whining because it sounds like one giant cacophonous copypasta,”

    If you don’t want to hear responses from men about how it looks like men aren’t interested in dating, why did you ask the question on a public blog and solicit comments? You had to know men were going to respond and say things like “uh, no, that’s not it at all”.

    And this:

    “3.. Blog hostess does not experience being hit on constantly nor being solicited for sex by alphas.
    4. Blog hostess writes about how men supposedly are desperate for sex but in day-to-day interactions with men, the men seem sterile and uninterested in women.”

    Teh solipsism!

    I see. This post was really about your personal experiences. I doubt your experiences are universal. Moreover, I explained this: if by “men” you’re talking about average, ordinary, every day men, those men seem sterile and uninterested in women because of the threat of a trumped up sex harassment charge, the fear of public nuking, and they’ve learned the hard way that they’ll just get rejected most of the time.

    But if you’re talking about the top 20% of men, then it could be simply that most of those men either (1) know you won’t be down for quick casual sex; or (2) don’t find you attractive.

    “Male red pill junkies materialize en masse at blog to shout down blog hostess for being an entitled princess who deserves no love past the age of 29 because she rejected men during her hot years/she’s probably fat/she’s hit the wall/she used to be a slut”

    No one said this to you or about you.

    “Male red pill junkies regroup and dogpile even more on blog hostess, reminding her that she doesn’t care about men, doesn’t understand men, will never understand men, doesn’t want to listen to men, will never be as smart as men, will never be as grateful as men, will never be as wonderful as men, etc., and refuse to let the hostess have the last word on her own blog.”

    No one said these things. What was said is that women (not you personally) don’t want to hear men talk about their relationship problems. But in your comment you’ve made it about you, when it isn’t about you.

    Finally, if you want the last word, lock the thread. Better yet, take a page from Jack Donovan’s book or Simon Grey, and refuse comments. It is your blog.

  144. deti October 26, 2013 at 2:22 pm #

    “Blog hostess reads men’s blogs all centered around the idea that MEN NEED SEX WITH WOMEN TO LIVE/BE SANE/NOT BE PSYCHOLOGICALLY DAMAGED/etc., and how to procure sex. It is such a burning need that these men are DESPERATE to do anything to help them have more sex.”

    The scare caps weren’t lost on me, by the way. This is an apparent attempt to denigrate, make light of, sneer at, and ridicule men’s impassioned expressions of their physiological, psychological and spiritual need for connection with at least one other member of the opposite sex.

  145. late_to_the_party October 26, 2013 at 9:24 pm #

    Haley,

    It seems like this is a case of a linkbait title backfiring.

    1)
    To the question stated literally, I wondered the same thing when girls (especially graduate students) would say “I’m not interested in a relationship right now.” I know most of the time it was a fig leaf for polite rejection, but it happened enough that even if it were true 10% of the time, I wondered what was wrong with all these girls in their reproductive time not just rejecting the search costs (I don’t want to mess with an online profile or spend hours in bars either, and lately I’ve been in a small town with no opportunities), but when a tall, intelligent, above-average-looking guy is doing the asking, the planning, and probably the paying, why not give it a try instead of hanging out with the girls from your department? I understand “saving yourself for marriage”, but I started to wonder if these girls were really homosexual (and marrying for money and pregnancy, which is all that a lot of Churchian girls will admit to wanting from marriage/men does not change that, by the way).

    2)
    Perhaps a better question would be “how do Christians who are not high school (or college) couples do relationships, and what are the problems with spending so much time not only unmarried, but making no obvious progress or even false starts”?

    I remember a female friend (sweet, but a different race: I went out with her roommate a couple of times; no spark on her end) saying, “Nothing has prepared us for this time in our lives”.

    I could understand if there was something defective about me, but as I looked around, it seemed like most of the other guys were as clueless / lonely as I was.

    A few couples suddenly appeared, but most people seemed to remain alone for long stretches of time, and it wasn’t at all clear what the procedure was supposed to be.

    An etiquette columnist (Google seems to think it is “Miss Manners”) wrote about “social promiscuity” (as distinguished from sexual promiscuity), and said that widespread premarital sex made “social promiscuity” illicit now (this is consistent with Dalrock’s “Serial Monogamy”). Adding Churchian prudishness and it’s not just that men are “frightened of rejection”, but that the entire culture teaches them that it’s somehow wrong or strange or silly to ask more than one girl out within a year. After a particularly painful failure (my first), a married Christian friend who came of age in the 1980’s basically said “[group name] is crawling with girls”, i.e., just keep trying again. But Christian guys closer to my age was usually limiting / frightening: “girls do talk” (they should, if a guy is a rapist or something, but should failure to get to a second/third date with one girl poison the well with the entire group)? The same guy’s girlfriend (who he met through the Internet) was not judgmental about my process, but she asked at one point “have you settled down or are you still ‘playing the field’?”

    I felt a little self-conscious: the honest answer was: “I got tired of wasting months/years stalking one girl (who probably felt uncomfortable) and then finding out she wouldn’t go out with me (or would do so only awkwardly because I kept asking (this only happened once), so I’m just going to try to go on actual dates. Usually after on very light date (sometimes meeting for coffee); they won’t accept a second date. So I ask out someone else, but I don’t have a very large social circle so I’m almost running out of candidates.”

    At the time I was somewhat impressionable to the conventional wisdom (and feared being seen as a player or desperate). With age and maturity, I’m more confident than ever that I was right, but I’ve pretty much aged out of most Christian groups (*another blog post topic: did these cease to exist in the 1990’s? Is the structure of the seeker-sensitive church also an impediment?)

    Even if I did pursue almost every girl in the group “indiscriminately” (which I didn’t), I realized at the time that I was actually highly discriminating: they were all the correct age, race (Europeans are declining from 28% of world population in 1950 to 9.8% in 2060), marital status, actively Christian, and intelligence / class (this was happening in an exclusive university town).

    Back to advice columnists: I think it was “Dear Prudence” on Salon who advised a young woman that “there is no mourning period” after breaking up with a boyfriend. While in some cases it may seem like cruel-hearted hypergamy (it was somewhat amusing / jealousy-inducing to watch two neighbors each break up with their pre-existing sweethearts and get together), isn’t it kind of the normal and healthy thing to do before marriage?

    But again, even the concept of being “in circulation” seems (as you agree) missing from many of the college-educated set (definitely Christian).

    3)
    But while I agree with your concern “men are not asking me out” (I think I would if you were in range), I take issue with “young guys just seem weirdly uninterested in women”. How much sexuality do you expect a man to project in a group setting (especially work or church)? Even without sexual harassment risk, it’s just gentlemanly and appropriate not to stare, grope, or make crude jokes (and those behaviors aren’t directly related or don’t seem helpful to actually starting a relationship anyway).

  146. galloper6 October 26, 2013 at 9:43 pm #

    Let me simplify the situation. First, men have finite capacity for rejection. Then they leave the game.

  147. Deti Fan October 26, 2013 at 10:14 pm #

    Women have a primary need to connect with men through emotional conversations, through which they feel understood, loved, cherished, intimate, and close, and then once their emotional needs for intimacy are met, then they desire physical sex for additional intimacy, but their primary need for intimacy and connection with men is emotional and conversational in nature.

    Men have a primary need to connect with women through physical sex, through which they feel loved, respected, intimate, and close, and then once their physical needs for intimacy are met, then they desire more emotional conversations for additional intimacy, but their primary need for intimacy and connection with women is physical in nature.

    When women say things like, “MEN NEED SEX WITH WOMEN TO LIVE/BE SANE/NOT BE PSYCHOLOGICALLY DAMAGED/etc., and how to procure sex. It is such a burning need that these men are DESPERATE to do anything to help them have more sex,” they are often just judging and blaming men for having the normal needs for physical intimacy that God designed men to have.

    Choosing not to like something about men because you don’t understand it or are afraid of it does not help bridge the gap between the sexes. You should not be so quick to insult men based on that misunderstanding.

    Many women say they would “go crazy” if they didn’t have someone to share their heart and thoughts with in a deeply emotional conversation, to be heard and valued by someone they want to be close with, to be deeply (emotionally) intimate with another.

    That is how God designed women to be.

    Men are the same, but in the opposite order.

    I prefer you try to understand and respect men, rather than just shame and belittle us for being different than you.

    We are not wrong, just different.

    The sooner women accept the fact that men think and act differently (as God designed us to), the sooner they can adjust their own expectations of men, and learn to live peacefully with us.

  148. late_to_the_party October 26, 2013 at 10:22 pm #

    I have read a few here imply that a date should be requested face-to-face. First, it would be best for the Kingdom if girls would try not to be about arbitrary and secret rules (hello false pride: “I only go out with guys who ask me out on Wednesdays. Ask me on a Tuesday or a Thursday, or any other day of the week and I’ll NEVER EVER GO OUT WITH YOU; HUPH!”

    But I actually think face-to-face is a bad idea: cornering a girl in a public setting and hijacking that setting for a private discussion strikes me as inappropriate and awkward. If I said that I was really busy looking to buy a house I’d tolerate a parishioner slipping me a business card with something like “I’m a mortgage broker; let me know if I can help”, but if he stood there middle of Sunday School / Fellowship Hall / Greeting Time and actually started working up a quote, I’d probably remind him of Jesus’ only recorded use of a weapon. While family formation is at least as normal as making a living, it’s probably equally inappropriate.

    And from a relationship standpoint, it’s kind of a no-win situation: it’s harder for a girl to give polite rejection if other people are around, and she may also want to agree to the date without a public declaration of a relationship (and for a a guy to want that is sneaky!). So I used the phone to ask for dates: it’s appropriately private and appropriately personal.

  149. late_to_the_party October 26, 2013 at 10:25 pm #

    …if girls would try not to be *so picky* about arbitrary…
    …family formation is at least as *noble* as…

  150. archerwfisher October 27, 2013 at 1:28 pm #

    Haley,

    If you’re not getting approached, you need to change the areas you hang out, and/or be more approachable, maybe change your style of dress. Flirt. Make eye contact, smile, etc. Them’s the breaks. Guys don’t cold approach so much anymore. You want guys to approach, flirt, show them they can approach.

    And no, it’s not attractive to hear/see guys complain about women. But it’s nature. And women do it very commonly too. Why? It’s nature. People get irate about something, they gripe to *someone,* usually.

  151. archerwfisher October 27, 2013 at 1:31 pm #

    And don’t worry Haley, it sounds like no man feels a need or a desire to have sex with *you,* so you don’t need to sneer at man.

  152. whatnewshatn October 27, 2013 at 3:23 pm #

    it horrifies women when men respond, loudly, over and over again, that “we want you; it’s just that we’ve figured out that you don’t want the vast majority of us.

    The vast majority of women is horrified at the disgusting thought that some of wimpy losrr beta wants them…

    The blogger’s question, she being woman (as proved conclusively by her writing “and refuse to let the hostess have the last word on her own blog”), was about dating and men, and when that happens, women never mean “men”, they always mean “alphas”.

    Translating from womanese to english, “Do people even want to date anymore?” comes out as “why alphas way out of my league don’t bother to commit and invest in average women like me”?

    And the answer is not that betas have stopped chasing women because they always get rejected, even if they want them, because women don’t ever want to even be mentioned the possibility of a disgusting beta wanting them.

    The best answer is the one I gave earlier: alphas either choose the no-invest-no-commit option, or invest and commit only in the very few women that motivate them to do so, which are the women who invest and commit in them.

    What women would like to hear instead is the usual “fried ice” story: that despite alphas being few and being not-beta, there will be an alpha for every woman, one who will constantly tingle her with being alpha, yet magically will also be deeply beta in investing and committing to her despite having better options and she not committing and investing in him.

    First, men have finite capacity for rejection. Then they leave the game.

    That’s about betas, but women are never interested in discussing the dating lives of betas, except with fear and disgust.

    Alphas have huge capacity to tolerate rejection, plus don’t get rejected as much as betas. The problem with alphas and “want to meet someone of the opposite sex for a potential romantic relationship” is not rejection, it is what happens when they are not rejected.

    Alphas have experience of how women really behave, and usually cannot imagine why ever they should invest in and commit to a woman for no reason whatever for them, given that they can get laid in NSA hookups quite easily.

    If the alphas are devoted Christians or simply very busy with their careers and lives they won’t go for NSA hookups, but that does not mean that they will invest and commit to a woman without any motivation and simply because she thinks she is entitled to that, as the Churches tell her all the the time.

  153. Mghow_Masculinist October 27, 2013 at 4:52 pm #

    @whatnewshatn

    You certainly make good points but don’t forget, there are also men that walk the fine line between ‘alpha’ and ‘beta’. Often you may find women, once they have no luck with the ‘alpha’, settle for a ‘beta’ for long term commitment or stability. In some cases they do this while still chasing the ‘alpha. However, in my opinion, even many of the ‘betas’ are now opting out leaving many women with even less choices.

    I don’t think you can so easily place men into such rigid compartments. I know a guy who is neither ‘beta’ or ‘alpha’, he seems to be right down the middle, he appears to engage women on an emotional level, he is not walked over by them, takes no nonsense from them, flirts with them and says things that the average ‘beta’ would never dare say. Ive noticed quite a lot of women chase him (both married and single) and he clearly finds them attractive as they also find him.

    Here’s the thing, he has also opted out and has just vanished from the dating pool. I asked him why and he just mumbled ‘its logical bro’.

    For the most part, you may be right and my example could be a rare exception but who knows. Does anyone else know a guy who is neither ‘beta’ or ‘alpha’. It is quite possible that lots of men exhibit both traits since human nature is a mass of contradictions by nature.

    So I think woman used to have the ‘beta’ to fall back on, now even those guys are wising up. Can’t be a fool forever huh.

  154. FeminineButNotFeminist October 27, 2013 at 9:20 pm #

    Very interesting article/comments…

    Here is my opinion, take it or leave it… I think the problem started with the feminist movement. In equ

  155. FeminineButNotFeminist October 27, 2013 at 10:47 pm #

    Very interesting article / comments. Here is my opinion, take it or leave it…

    I think the whole problem started with the feminist movement. Women started fighting for “equality of the sexes” without understanding that we are equal to men in value, but not in function. God created men and women with different traits that were meant to compliment each other and make up for what the opposite sex lacks (just look at the way a penis and vagina compliment each other perfectly). One of the tragic consequenses of the feminist agenda is that when women demand to be treated like men and expect men to act like women, EVERYTHING from then on is totally screwed up. (I should inject that I am a 28 year old single woman so there is no need for women reading this to rant about me being a backwards sexist (male) pig or whatever male bashing you would normally use.) Unfortunately most women these days don’t behave in a very attractive way (if I were a man I sure wouldn’t want most of the women I know!). Think about it ladies – if you were a man trying to find a good woman to be with (assuming you want a real relationship and not a one night stand) would you want most of the women you know, or yourself for that matter? I also want to reassure the men reading this that not all women are mean disrespectful gold-digging sluts that are only attracted to the so-called alpha males. Some of us (though admittedly very few of us) do value and admire what makes you uniquely masculine and special in your own way. Some of us want to have a real relationship with a real guy (notice I didn’t say perfect) who we can go through all of life’s ups and downs with and be there for / be a soft place for him to land / take equally good care of him / make lots of love to every day (after marriage that is) / just generally make him happy.

    Having said all of that, it frustrates me that the majority of women’s actions cause men to have such a poor outlook on dating, causing them to believe there are no good women out there, causing them to overlook those of us who would be good to them. I’ve been told by many guys that I’m the nicest person they know, that I’m beautiful, etc. I smile and try to show that I’m approachable and friendly but apparently that isn’t enough. So if guys want someone who is those things, and someone comes along who is very nice and respectful to him and doesn’t reject him, or expect him to be perfect, why not be willing to give her a chance? I get that no one wants to risk getting burned having been mistreated in the past, but if someone shows you they would be good to and for you, then why not? Why do I see guys put up with so much BS from their girlfriends that they would never get from me? Ok now I’m starting to rant so I’m going to shut up now.

  156. earl October 28, 2013 at 9:20 pm #

    Let me feel some sympathy for the hostess. I’m sure she is of the kind who has never rejected a man who asked her out. I’m sure everytime a meeting was arranged…she never flaked, had to stay late at work that night, had a family member drop in last minute, or had her pet parakeet die just before the date and needs time to grieve. She is wandering about her life just itching at the bit for a man…any man to ask her out. She will welcome that man with open arms because he “manned up” and did the deed.

    The men are just complaining about their real life experiences. Surely we were just meeting the wrong women. It is our fault that we haven’t asked out the precious blog hostess because she is the 1 woman who isn’t like that.

  157. galloper6 October 28, 2013 at 9:36 pm #

    Dont assume reciprocal behavior. Never mind that you pulled have car out of a ditch fixed her roof for free or solved problems for her. Expect no special consideration or even politeness. The way you are treated depends on your status. An alpha will treat her like dirt and still get whatever he wants. Other men exist only to serve the princess. (Untill they figuire out the scam.)

  158. galloper6 October 28, 2013 at 9:37 pm #

    pulled her car

  159. FeminineButNotFeminist October 28, 2013 at 9:44 pm #

    Again, we’re not all like that.

  160. Seth Connor October 28, 2013 at 10:00 pm #

    “”Aunt Haley said: 5. Male red pill junkies materialize en masse at blog to shout down blog hostess for being an entitled princess who deserves no love past the age of 29 because…Ukrainian women are sweet and lovely but American women are fat and belligerent…””

    Considering that I am the only one who mentioned anything involving Ukraine, I can only assume that the last part of the quoted statement is in reference to my addition to the discussion.

    I don’t seem to recall saying women in America fat/belligerent (although some posters have point blank) or even suggesting that Ukrainian women were (as a whole) “sweet and lovely”. So I’m going to clarify.

    -I want to get married.-

    Part of that “get married” process involves “dating” by which I mean ““want to meet someone of the opposite sex for a potential romantic relationship”.

    My experience with dating, actually meeting a person, is 3 for 3 on being the second boyfriend, even though I took the initiative to invite the female and twice directly asking the female if there was romantic happenings between first boyfriend (unbeknownst) and the female. I don’t hold this against female humanity (American or otherwise).

    Other pursuits of female (on my part) have been denied due to nuclear rejection, LJBF, etc.

    I know sweet, kind womanly women. These women were either married already or engaged when I met them. All of them met their spouses through the church. As I did not grow up in church, I lament my lack of opportunity to be in such an environment when these kinds of women were looking to marry young. I do not wish to infer that all women who fail to get married young missed the boat.

    Now that I am achieved and in my mid 20’s, however, I found myself wondering if there is a gathering of people who are serious about wanting “to meet someone of the opposite sex for a potential romantic relationship” where the participants are vetted to be single, mentally stable and of sincere intent (as much as may be inferred).

    I ask married people: How do people meet outside of work or school (and alcohol)?
    They have no answers.

    I look up local matchmakers. They cost cash…a lot of cash. I can afford a lot of cash, and after I consider what an addition a quality spouse would bring into my life, I can see why that cash would be a very good investment. Reviews on them are terrible, though, so I don’t go that route.

    So I find this guy and his wife who do this thing with friends. They screen the guys, they screen the girls, they introduce them, magic happens, one-in-three chance of finding a marriage. It is in Ukraine, but it could be in Zimbabwe or Panama or New York City for all I care. Maybe it will work for me. Maybe I’ll just have a good time with serious girls. Maybe I’ll hate it. Until then I’m having fun learning Russian and cooking traditional Eastern European dishes.

    As far as I can see it, that’s my best option. I can’t imagine what a girl must think her options are in my position; she can’t go overseas (or anywhere, really) to possibly find a serious relationship. But that’s why I like this blog. It gives me that perspective, and I appreciate it. It isn’t one that I get to see often and I want to know more.

    Where do we find “you” at, Haley? The faithful Christian girl who sincerely wants a wholesome marriage?

    I can’t imagine going church hopping, and while I do frequent quiet places like quilting stores and the library on occasion I can’t imagine cold-calling a woman for a date there lest I make a reputation after the first or second attempt.

    How do I act? Am I upbeat? Calm? Serious? Am I focused? Do I startle you by telling you exactly what I think or do I try to warm you up by complementing you?

    Do we set up an exclusive singles events with only vetted members? Do we create a new fashion accessory for Christians who want to signal they are serious about looking for a marriage?

  161. FeminineButNotFeminist October 28, 2013 at 10:32 pm #

    Seth, I’m not Haley but I hope you don’t mind me commenting…

    Based on this post you sound like an awesome guy, and being in your mid-twenties you are still young and in your prime. I don’t have any answers to your questions (though I wish I did for both our sakes) but I do want to encourage you not to give up your search for a girl that is truly wife material. Despite what many of the guys on here have said, there are still some of us floating around that want to be a good wife for someone and will do our part in the relationship. I personally have spent the last few years learning as much as I can about how men think and are wired differently than women for the sole purpose of being able to treat my future husband the best I possibly can and love / respect him in the way he is wired to receive it. And I’m hopefully not the only one that does that. So whether in the USA or Ukraine, I do hope you find what you are looking for :-)

  162. deti October 29, 2013 at 8:51 am #

    In the end, to me this really just comes down to this:

    1. Men are hardwired to need sex. They are supposed to have that sex in the confines of a marital relationship.
    2. Most men cannot get sex because they can’t get married.
    3. Most men are not attractive enough to get and keep the interest of a woman long enough to marry her.
    4. Most men know very well they will bear the blame of a botched date request (result? Sex harassment charge) or failing to read the tea leaves correctly (result? Nuclear rejection) or a failed relationship (result? Reputation destroyed, the man must have done something to hurt or alienate her) or a rejected escalation attempt (result? False rape accusation). Whatever goes wrong in a male-female situation, the male will always, always receive the blame.
    5. The men who are getting married are not attractive enough to keep the interest of their wives.
    6. Most women are marrying men they were never sexually attracted to; or are married to men for whom those women feel no sexual attraction at all.
    7. Most women are much more open about feeling no attraction for most men because most women do not need men – they have their own money and their own jobs.
    8. Most women who aren’t getting asked out or rejected are as such because (1) they’re not attractive enough; or (2) their standards are too high; or (3) the alphas know those women will either (a) be too much hassle or (b) demand investment immediately or (3) refuse casual sex.

  163. deti October 29, 2013 at 8:52 am #

    9. All women want alphas with a touch of beta. There aren’t nearly enough of those men to go around to all the women who want one.

  164. Farm Boy October 29, 2013 at 9:20 am #

    The vast majority of women is horrified at the disgusting thought that some of wimpy losrr beta wants them…

    They still want them to pay taxes though

  165. Farm Boy October 29, 2013 at 9:36 am #

    The truth shall set you free

  166. earl October 29, 2013 at 10:41 am #

    Women want all the outer benefits of the high status men (money and dick)…without having to commit to the the icky feelings of seeing the inner weaknesses of most men.

    Thanks, unleashed hypergamy!

  167. FeminineButNotFeminist October 29, 2013 at 12:36 pm #

    And again… Not. All. Women. Are. Like. That!

    A lot of you guys seem to think that every woman in existence is a horrible monster of a creature. That is the equivalent of some women saying that every man in existence is a jerk, player, cheater, insert other typical insult here. But I’m sure most of you guys would agree that isn’t fair to those of you who have good intentions, and I’m telling you that isn’t true of all of us either. Is it true of many women (and men)? Of course! Is it true of all of us? No! And all of us need to keep in mind that throwing insults at the opposite sex isn’t going to help us attract anyone (male or female) any more than we ourselves would be attracted by it.

  168. earl October 29, 2013 at 12:39 pm #

    Or put another way…women want the freedom to hate on men yet still partake in the goodies men bring.

    You can’t have it both ways. That’s like me hating on God during my life…engaging in sin, blaspheming, encouraging other to hate God, then dying without repentance. When I meet judgement…and see all the goodies Heaven has, I have the gall tell God I want that stuff. Then I blame God for throwing me into Hell.

  169. FeminineButNotFeminist October 29, 2013 at 1:06 pm #

    Earl, you have to admit that goes for some men as well as some women. A lot of the general frustrations we are all expressing on this blog are a two way street.

  170. whatnews October 29, 2013 at 2:28 pm #

    In this huge discussion, two interesting bits:

    [3. Blog hostess does not experience being hit on constantly nor being solicited for sex by alphas.
    4. Blog hostess writes about how men supposedly are desperate for sex but in day-to-day interactions with men, the men seem sterile and uninterested in women.]

    [And again… Not. All. Women. Are. Like. That!]

    These two can be explained easily: dating women if for men a case described in “”The Market for Lemons: Quality Uncertainty and the Market Mechanism” (summarized on Wikipedia).

    This case happens when people want X, but a lot of X are bad, and there is no cheap way to check whether an X is good or bad before investing in it. The consequence is that many fewer people will take the risk of getting an X, and they will be willing to invest very little because of the risk of getting a bad X.

    For a man (or a woman) for dating there are two risks: rejected by a good person, and dating a bad person. Given that men are asked to do all the investing and committing in a dating relationshit, for them dating a bad person is particularly costly, and therefore if there is a significant chance of ending up with a bad person, they won’t even try to find a good person.

    For example if men want to date women of good character (as defined by men…), since good character can’t be checked directly, it must be implied by past behavior, and in the absence of extensive knowledge of such past behavior, many men won’t be able to be convince themselves that the potential date is of good character, and will assume the worst often enough.

    So if there are a significant percentage of women behaving badly to men, not even a majority, can mean that many men give up altogether, unless they are particularly advantaged, in that being very attractive can get away with sampling lots of potential partners, and are not required to invest or commit to those partners.

    What can “good” women of quality do to motivate men to try to find them? Well, they need to make it easy for those men to check the difference of quality between them and “bad” women, but that is far from easy.

  171. FeminineButNotFeminist October 29, 2013 at 2:47 pm #

    Whatnews, thank you for that explanation. The situation is very frustrating but at least it makes some sense now.

  172. an observer October 29, 2013 at 2:56 pm #

    All women want alphas with a touch of beta

    Real alphas are supposed to be relatively rare. Since every second female in the manosphere seems to be married to one, I think we need a new subcategory.

    Instead of ‘alpha with beta traits’ I’m going to christen the likes of HHG as ‘alpha minors’.

  173. an observer October 29, 2013 at 2:58 pm #

    women want the freedom to hate on men yet still partake in the goodies men bring

    Welcome to liberal democracies.

  174. an observer October 29, 2013 at 3:00 pm #

    throwing insults at the opposite sex isn’t going to help

    So accurate observations of reality are unacceptable.Got it.

  175. an observer October 29, 2013 at 3:04 pm #

    Deti gets it right again.

    The typical church guy aiming for obedience really has his work cut out. His choices are fornicate, and get respect. Or stay chaste, and be despised.

    Meanwhile, little princesses are having their fun and abusing grace. Then lining up to secure the best possible man to divorce.

    Donal Graeme touched on reality here:
    https://donalgraeme.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/shattering-the-delusion/

  176. FeminineButNotFeminist October 29, 2013 at 3:07 pm #

    Hello wall…

  177. an observer October 29, 2013 at 3:09 pm #

    Seth,

    You are still young. Modern women discount younger men, their sexual market value is much greater than yours at this time of life.

    Your peak is yet to come.
    http://therationalmale.com/2012/06/04/final-exam-navigating-the-smp/

    Do not waste your twenties pining for a relationship. Let them come to you. it will happen.

  178. an observer October 29, 2013 at 3:20 pm #

    A lot of you guys seem to think that every woman in existence is a horrible monster of a creature

    Hypergamy is a feature, not a bug, of hardwired female functioning. Properly guided, it can be a useful guide to an assortative mating strategy.

    Unleashed by the dark triad of abortion, the pill and the mass entry of women to the workplace, hypergamy is now out of control.

    Both men and women suffer from this. If women are now misbehaving en masse thanks to hypergamy as an extreme sport, mens strategy to highlight this behaviour as disfunctional can hardly be described as hating.

  179. whatnews October 29, 2013 at 3:27 pm #

    [A lot of you guys seem to think that every woman in existence is a horrible monster of a creature.]

    That’s a wild exaggeration, even if some men do seem to say that exaggeration. There is a mix of factors here, for example:

    1: Average women tend to be significantly more sociopathic than average men. They are not serial killing psychopaths, they are just significantly more manipulative and uncaring, at least towards men (but also towards other women). There are various plausible reasons for this. As a result average women despise as wimpy needy losers average men, as they are usually significantly less sociopathic than them, and are only sexually attracted to the few men who are at least as much as sociopathic than they are, and ideally a bit more. This makes average women not only sexually disinterested in average men, but also dangerous partners to them if they use them for a non sexual relationshit.

    The above is often summarized in statements like “The Eternal Solipsism of the Female Mind” or in Kipling’s poem “For the female of the species is more deadly than the male”.

    [That is the equivalent of some women saying that every man in existence is a jerk, player, cheater, insert other typical insult here. But I’m sure most of you guys would agree that isn’t fair to those of you who have good intentions]
    [Earl, you have to admit that goes for some men as well as some women.]

    Then there is the other point:

    2: While both men and women may be risky partners, culture and the law offer rather strong rights of redress to women, and essentially none to men. If a woman wants to punish a male partner she has a good chance of getting him the modern equivalent of lynching by a rabid mob of maginas and white-knights, ESPECIALLY IN A CHURCHIAN CONTEXT.

    The combined consequence is that in the past men, even “beta” men, were more willing to risk investing in dating women because the greater level of sociopathy of women was implicitly recognized and law and culture were designed to contain it and there was some minimal protection for men too, plus men needed women in practice far more than they do now, and viceversa. Also “alphas”, by being far more popular with women, they get to know them better than “betas” do, and especially to know how sexually predatory and free from scruples most women really are.

    In a Christian context men are asked by the Scriptures to be chaste, that is either invest and commit to women or to remain celibate, and the latter can be easier than dealing with the alternative.

    Especially for a Christian “alpha”! An attractive, confident, detached, “alpha” may well rate himself capable of dealing with point 1 and point 2 above; by holding the tiger by the tail, by playing the fife to keep the cobra from striking, at least for a while; but a Christian alpha’s God commands him to do so until death part them. Even an alpha can never be sure that he will never falter, he will never become ill, he will never become weak, and he will be able to keep holding the tail and playing the fife till the last.

    But this is a passing situation: women are collectively exerting a very high pressure of sexual selection on men, and the consequences will become obvious in a couple generations.

    Never mind the cultural pressure: many women who have behaved badly to their husbands, or in general, seem to forget than their male children notice everything. The generations of young men raised since the 2nd and 3rd wave, who have been witnesses of the behavior of their mothers, have far fewer illusions and understand points 1 and 2 above much better than older-generation maginas and white-knights.

  180. an observer October 29, 2013 at 3:34 pm #

    FBNF,

    it frustrates me that the majority of women’s actions cause men to have such a poor outlook on dating, causing them to believe there are no good women out there, causing them to overlook those of us who would be good to them

    Late to the party, only now catching up on previous comments.

    Dr Helens new book addresses this:

    What you describe sounds like a feedback loop in operation, created by the poor behaviour of the slutty sisterhood. The minority of women that stay chaste were always going to be badly effected.

    Mens expectations have been moulded to believe that women in their twenties just want to have fun. Going against that trend means a serious narrowing of the dating pool.

    I have on occasion thought we need a red pill dating service. In the meantime, in all seriousness, perhaps here might introduce you to more like minded male posters?
    http://sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com/

  181. FeminineButNotFeminist October 29, 2013 at 3:37 pm #

    I just meant that a lot of guys are generalizing and applying a stereotype to all women everywhere, regardless of whether or not every woman fits that stereotype or not. So many have said “all women are sluts, only want an alpha male, want to sleep with all said alpha males until they want to marry a beta male so she can divorce him and take him for everything he’s worth” and that doesn’t describe me at all. It’s frustrating to be automatically included in that stereotype just for being born female. That’s all I’m saying, and please don’t take it out of context.

  182. an observer October 29, 2013 at 3:45 pm #

    The generations of young men raised since the 2nd and 3rd wave, who have been witnesses of the behavior of their mothers, have far fewer illusions and understand points 1 and 2 above much better than older-generation maginas and white-knights.

    I would tentatively second this.

    The behaviour of many teenage guys towards girls directly reflects this change. I am convinced we now see much more teasing, much less deference, and much less pedestalising shown by younger boys and men towards girls than ever before.

    The most striking example I’ve seenof this was a pair of girls waltzing down the centre of the footpath being oblivious to everyone. A pair of teenage guys were walking in the other direction. Instead of stepping aside as white knights would, they saw the girls coming and continued on. Girls got bumped on the shoulder for walking in the centre of the path, two abreast, and got very offended. ‘How dare he…’ etc etc.

    This is the logical outcome of equality. Either girls are equal or they are not. They cannot claim both equality and special treatment at the same time, and I think younger men are increasingly starting to operationalise this in their behaviour.

  183. whatnews October 29, 2013 at 3:46 pm #

    [most women do not need men – they have their own money and their own jobs.]

    What is really crucial is not money and jobs in themselves, it is pensions. Women used to raise children as pension investments, and needed husbands to fund the raising of those children, which would then be her support in middle and old age.

    Therefore the poorer the circumstances of a woman, the more children and the earlier she would want them, to maximize her chances of getting enough support. Put another way, traditionally men, whether husbands or children, were in the role of livestock for women, and the power and prosperity of a woman depended on the quality and quantity of the livestock she could domesticate and raise. Thus for example the extreme pressure that mothers still put on male children in many cultures to study hard and work hard, to maximize the return to themselves of the investment of having and raising those sons.

    Currently women who can save towards a pension have little incentive to raise children as investments, and therefore regard having children as an expensive hobby, thus they tend to only have one and without any urgency.

  184. an observer October 29, 2013 at 3:52 pm #

    FBNF,

    It’s frustrating to be automatically included in that stereotype just for being born female

    I hear what you say. Have you considered how that effects the average mid twenties man?

    Churches paint men as sex crazed oppressors. Organisations villify men by promoting less qualified women. The average young man has just as few opportunities for genuine relationships as you are experiencing, thanks to feminism.

    I don’t say this to express schaudenfreude. just as you claim NAWALT, it affects men too.

    The average beta man goes dateless for years, but his complaints aren’t believed.

    The average beta man is a cubicle drone, or sales target slave, but he can’c complain, because men are all part of the oppressive patriarchy.

    The average beta man can no longer approach or expect dates from women in his realistic league, because he’s seen as creepy, a stalker, or not alpha enough.

    The average beta man get friend zoned, whilst Chrissy Church girl sexes up Harley Rockbanddrummer. Who then gets pregnant, and testifies about grace.

    <I It’s frustrating to be automatically included in that stereotype just for being born male

    Evil cuts both ways.Everyone loses.

  185. an observer October 29, 2013 at 3:53 pm #

    FBNF,

    It’s frustrating to be automatically included in that stereotype just for being born female

    I hear what you say. Have you considered how that effects the average mid twenties man?

    Churches paint men as sex crazed oppressors. Organisations villify men by promoting less qualified women. The average young man has just as few opportunities for genuine relationships as you are experiencing, thanks to feminism.

    I don’t say this to express schaudenfreude. just as you claim NAWALT, it affects men too.

    The average beta man goes dateless for years, but his complaints aren’t believed.

    The average beta man is a cubicle drone, or sales target slave, but he can’c complain, because men are all part of the oppressive patriarchy.

    The average beta man can no longer approach or expect dates from women in his realistic league, because he’s seen as creepy, a stalker, or not alpha enough.

    The average beta man get friend zoned, whilst Chrissy Church girl sexes up Harley Rockbanddrummer. Who then gets pregnant, and testifies about grace.

    It’s frustrating to be automatically included in that stereotype just for being born male

    Evil cuts both ways.Everyone loses.

    Edit: italics corrected.

  186. whatnews October 29, 2013 at 4:27 pm #

    [The generations of young men raised since the 2nd and 3rd wave, who have been witnesses of the behavior of their mothers,]

    [I would tentatively second this. The behaviour of many teenage guys towards girls directly reflects this change. I am convinced we now see much more teasing, much less deference, and much less pedestalising shown by younger boys and men towards girls than ever before.]

    It is is not as mild as that; a significant minority of male children, and even from supposedly Christian backgrounds, who have grown up in the past 2-3 decades and have seen how their mothers behaved towards their (ex)-husbands, and gotten away with it, think of their own mothers as vicious and promiscuous nasties. They also realize that their own sisters, and the daughters of similar mothers, had them as role models.

    The resulting attitude is a rather less optimistic than [much less deference, and much less pedestalising]. Even if they don’t end up regarding their own mothers as vicious and promiscuous nasties and expecting many girls their age to go that way too, they usually have no intention to end up as their fathers did.

    Many young men cannot fail to have noticed how their own fathers ended for investing time and effort to “meet someone of the opposite sex for a potential romantic relationship”, and are convinced not to make the same mistake, one way or another.

    Without being bitter about it, just practical about their odds based on their own experience of watching what their own mother dished out to her husband.

  187. FeminineButNotFeminist October 29, 2013 at 4:57 pm #

    I have considered that men experience this also, and most of my posts were intended to come to mens’ defense for this very reason. Maybe they didn’t come across that way but that was my intention. If you read them carefully you won’t find any male bashing or insults, but a lot of “women need to change too because we started this whole thing with feminism!”, and “let’s stop insulting each other and just be nice!”, geared as much toward women as men (even more in some cases). Believe me, I’m very angered by the way a lot of women treat men and wish I could change it as much as you do. I’ve been trying to learn as much about the God-made differences between men and women for a few years now and the more I learn the more I admire what makes you different. And by the way, I don’t get the whole alpha/beta thing. Maybe my definition of each is different than yours, but I have never been attracted to what I assume you mean by alpha male. In fact that is the only kind of guy I have ever turned down for a date and prefer what I assume you mean by beta male. Maybe someone can enlighten me here…

  188. galloper6 October 29, 2013 at 4:58 pm #

    FbNF Not saying most women are”like that”. But every time someone treats someone else badly, it ripples out to hurt us all.
    whole culture has become crueler than ever. There has always been winners and losers. Now the proportion of losers is on the upswing.

  189. Farm Boy October 29, 2013 at 7:39 pm #

    You don’t want to hear men talk about their dating/marriage problems. You don’t. It repulses and frightens you.

    That is very understandable. Who would want to hear about an attribute that they have (hypergamy), in it’s unchained form is slowly strangling civilization?

  190. an observer October 29, 2013 at 7:59 pm #

    I don’t get the whole alpha/beta thing. Maybe my definition of each is different than yours, but I have never been attracted to what I assume you mean by alpha male. In fact that is the only kind of guy I have ever turned down for a date and prefer what I assume you mean by beta male. Maybe someone can enlighten me here…

    Hey, i have some time. Lets start with the basics, Voxs hierarchy.
    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com.au/2011/03/socio-sexual-hierarchy.html

    Keep in mind, the manosphere often abbreviates this to alphas, and lumps the rest in as betas. This is bettet explained here.
    http://voxday.blogspot.com.au/2010/01/roissy-and-limits-of-game.html

    Alphas can be situational or context dependent. A man can be an alpha in one context but a beta in others. Pure alphas are extremely rare; social dominance is uncommonly expressed across every aspect of life.

    Women in general are attracted to men that are confident, dominant and in charge. Your mileage may vary…

  191. Deti Fan October 29, 2013 at 11:45 pm #

    @ FBNF

    Thank you for your concern for men!

    I appreciate your comments and your interest in the well-being of men.
    Though your words are encouraging, I request you take further action.

    Unless you, as a woman, actively confront and correct the horrible attitudes and misbehavior of most other women, nothing much will change.

    Women will only listen to other women, and most women fail to see their sin.
    Those that do recognize their sins rationalize it as acceptable, refusing to take any responsibility for their part of the problems.

    While your words are appreciated, men don’t need your pity or your sympathy – We need your help!

    Please make every effort and opportunity to teach and correct the women in your life, showing them the right way to live, and how to respect all the men in their own lives.

    Only then will your words truly make a difference.

    Thank you!

  192. whatnews October 30, 2013 at 1:47 am #

    [Women in general are attracted to men that are confident, dominant and in charge. Your mileage may vary…]

    That is a popular interpretation of “sexual alpha” as being largely the same as “social alpha”, but I think that is taking the symptoms for the cause.

    I think that the core trigger for sexual attraction in women is being uncaring/selfish/emotionless. That is men who are more sociopathic than the average man is, because average men need to work together and trust each other to some degree. “Game”, the “red pill” is realizing that men need to at least *pretend* to be more uncaring to turn on women. BTW women hate men who merely pretend to be uncaring, they want the real thing, a man who is a genuine sociopath. Another less important aspect is having a hard body, in particular a tight ass seems to be something that turns on women a lot.

    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2001-07-19/
    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2001-07-20/
    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2001-07-21/

    Plus some other bonus ones :-)

    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2001-08-23/
    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2005-07-04/
    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2005-07-05/
    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-05-20/
    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-07-06/

  193. earl October 30, 2013 at 3:28 am #

    “It’s frustrating to be automatically included in that stereotype just for being born female.”

    If you act differently from the run of the mill female most of us are used to in the real world…you will stand out easily.

  194. deti October 30, 2013 at 9:04 am #

    @GI Jane: First, from what I’ve seen, women who are 10 or even 20 pounds overweight usually have no problems in dating and marriage. You seem to be suggesting that men should be attracted to morbidly obese women. That will happen when women start getting really attracted to balding, pudgy office drones who work at their $35,000/year jobs, drive broken down cars, and play video games on the weekends.

  195. FeminineButNotFeminist October 30, 2013 at 10:54 am #

    Observer, thank you for posting those links. I suppose my milage is a bit different than most. The alphas as described there have never apealed to me because they seem so fake, like they are trying to smooth-talk their way into your panties, mark another notch in their totem pole, then move on to the next girl. That is what I find “creepy”. I just assumed every other guy was lumped into the beta group by default, including the quality guys that should be the alphas (at least in my mind).

    To change the subject a bit, I must admit I’m shocked to learn from these comments how disgusted many men are by girls that sleep around. Even with all my research about men I have never heard this from a younger guy (only those old enough to be my dad or grandpa). When I tell a guy that I’m waiting until I get married to have sex they either look at me like I have 2 heads or mock me calling me a prude. And this has been 100% of my experience. It has been very disheartening. But it’s good to know that I was wrong. It’s also confusing because I always thought I have trouble getting a guy because I wouldn’t just give it up right away. Makes me wonder what I am really doing wrong.

  196. earl October 30, 2013 at 11:18 am #

    The only trouble you are having is that you aren’t subjugating yourself to the wrong men.

  197. nitouken October 30, 2013 at 11:28 am #

    @FBNF

    Try dating in the church. It’s the only place where the expectation still holds.

  198. FeminineButNotFeminist October 30, 2013 at 11:38 am #

    Deti fan, your welcome and thank you as well! I appreciate your understanding and appreciation :-)

    You raise some good points about taking action and teaching other women how harmful their actions and careless attitudes can be. You’ve given me some food for thought, and who knows? Maybe I could start writing my own blog or something to do just that…

    I would also like to request something of you men… like I said in my last post I was shocked to hear your views about girls that sleep around, and as hard as it may be to believe, I guarantee you many other women have no clue as well. I would like to ask that you all make this known to the women you know. But I advise you to choose your words carefully: it would be good to use a calm “I respect women who aren’t promiscuous” rather than an angry “I hate sluts” kind of thing that I have seen on this blog. Many women believe they have to sleep with a guy to get a relationship, and knowing differently might cause some of them to think twice, or stop a younger girl from starting down that path to begin with. Hey, you never know…

  199. galloper6 October 30, 2013 at 2:02 pm #

    Courting rituals were developed to separate serious candidates from seekers of quickies.
    What is obtained easily is valued lightly.
    If I am really intersted in someone, just being around her is a geat experience.
    If a man drops a woman because he did not get sex after a short period, he was not really enterested to begin with.

  200. Mghow_Masculinist October 30, 2013 at 5:52 pm #

    FeminineButNotFeminist said ‘To change the subject a bit, I must admit I’m shocked to learn from these comments how disgusted many men are by girls that sleep around. Even with all my research about men I have never heard this from a younger guy (only those old enough to be my dad or grandpa). When I tell a guy that I’m waiting until I get married to have sex they either look at me like I have 2 heads or mock me calling me a prude.’

    I am another one who is completely disgusted by women (and anyone else) that sleeps around, there are no double standards in my book, no such thing as a stud either. Any man or woman that sleeps around is disgusting in my book.

    I am not an old guy either. Back in my blue pill days (when I thought most women were worth a little effort), I was getting to know this cute 20 something girl. I later discovered that she had regular, drunken and unprotected sex with a guy (every hole) who in turn had plenty of unprotected sex with multiple partners very often (whores, pof, cheats). As you can imagine, I instantly lost all interest in this girl and was disgusted. All of those phrases such as ‘the past is the past’ are all bs and only said by those who are ashamed of their past. Imagine the risk of disease too.

    I have noticed this a lot in general as well as women pretending not to have partners so they can keep a guy as a reserve while they try to ‘upgrade’. I see through every facade, watch the body language, detect lies and remember what’s said and note hypocrisies.

    A single mother pursued me for years and when she gave up, she mysteriously had a new boyfriend (almost the next day). Asking her how long they had been together was met with complete silence (silence that spoke volumes). I had already suspected as much.

    So ‘FeminineButNotFeminist’ you may well be one of the good ones, different etc but the problem is, it’s too much of a lottery and the bad ones have ruined it for the good ones. It’s like a sewer with a few clean pieces of gold floating within reach to anyone courageous enough to dip their hand in.

    However, I don’t think all hope is lost, the truth prevails and I believe truth always wins in the end for it is all that matters. Despite this, I believe people who are true, will attract and filter out those who are also this way. I have met one decent girl some time ago and it seemed like a miracle (probably was). I am no longer looking though so its all good. Just going my own way.

  201. archerwfisher October 30, 2013 at 7:57 pm #

    FeminineButNotFeminist,

    Okay, I’m curious, what do girls think concerning numbers and what guys think? That 5 is the limit, 10, 15..? I mean, I know it varies in circles–heck, I even heard a popular Atlanta radio station, the Bert Show, somewhat advocate women having FWB’s. (They also debated about whether it was shallow to filter out chubby/fat people on dating sites. No callers agreed with the woman, haha.)

    I have heard that according to the askmen.com survey, when they asked about a woman’s number of partners, the majority of men voted that 5 or more was the limit/above that a girl was a slut. Oh, and don’t stress it, everyone speaks freely on the net. Of course guys are going to be more polite in person.

  202. Deti Fan October 30, 2013 at 8:41 pm #

    5 is still way too much!

    If anyone is to believe these were real accidents, and not something the woman really wanted to do anyway, then I say 1 time (maaaaayybe 2 times at most depending on the circumstances), and she had better be 100% open and honest about it as well, answering all questions truthfully. No trying to talk your way out of the consequences of your choices to get what you want now.

    Too many “good Christian women” want to have their fun now, and then have the nerve pull out the “innocent little victim” / Christian grace card when they need it.

    I blame churches and church leaders (and those women) for turning grace into a convenient get-out-of-jail-free card that cheapens the Christian faith and the whole point of going to church in the first place.

  203. FeminineButNotFeminist October 30, 2013 at 9:04 pm #

    Archerwfisher,

    I’m not sure if I’m the best one to answer this question since I don’t sleep around myself, but I’ll give my best guess. And to do so I have to put women into 3 categories…

    A) the hyper-modern-feminist who just wants to live it up and have her fun. I’d say most of them are young and the amount in this group gets smaller as they get older. Their ideal number: as many notches on their totem poles as possible.

    B) the ones who are “looking for love in all the wrong places”. They believe they can’t get a guy without sex so they will sleep with someone they are interested in hoping beyond hope that he will fall in love with her. Then when he leaves her she goes on to the next guy and she repeats. She doesn’t want a one night stand, she wants a relationship but is very misguided in her methods (which is why I requested that men be more open about what you believe in a recent post). Her ideal number: hopefully just 1 or 2, but since she doesn’t want to be alone she will keep going if needed even though she is very ashamed of the numbers (hence the women that pick up their antidepressants / antianxiety meds in the pharmacy I work in who for some reason feel comfortable telling me their failed relationship sob stories).

    C) those who refuse to sleep with a man until marriage and would rather die alone than compromise on this. Their ideal number: 1

    As far as what women believe men think, most of the ones I have talked to about it believe most men want to get laid as much as possible while they are young, then settle down and get married when he gets older and has “gotten it out of his system”. Not saying that’s true, it’s just what many women say.

  204. Hana October 30, 2013 at 9:34 pm #

    As a girl, I have to say that I pretty much agree with FBNF’s assessment above…

  205. imnobody00 October 30, 2013 at 10:14 pm #

    @Haley

    I’m not a MGTOW but one of your regular readers. I have not commented for longtime but you can find my nick in old posts.

    What has happen is that you have got older and you are not hit like before. I mean no offense, because I’m older than you.

    @FemenineNotFeminist

    Lots of women are not like that but the relationship between the sexes has been polluted by the feminists and the princesses. While this polluting took place, good women stayed silent even when men were attacked, when men were stolen their goods, when men were separated from their kids, when men were depicted as rapists, sexual-harassers, peter pans, immature boys or morons.

    Normal women didn’t lift a finger to oppose to that. On the contrary, they sided with the woman who were polluting the relationship between the sexes and they allowed the man-haters to speak in name of all women.

    Now they are shocked that they don’t get what women used to get from men before the pollution. And they are astonished that men don’t distinguish between them and the man-haters. Go figure.

  206. Deti Fan October 30, 2013 at 11:07 pm #

    FBNF,

    Which percentages do you believe each of the three categories of women amount to?

    Also, the term “get it out of his system” is a very secular notion.

    I believe the large majority of Christian men (at least when they are younger) hate the idea of stepping outside of a faithful marriage to meet their physical needs. Only when wives refuse to meet those real physical intimacy needs do some (and very few) men decide to meet their needs elsewhere (usually through porn or some other means).

    To us, “getting it out of our system” means finding a wife quickly, having a lot of sex with her, and being faithful to her alone.

    When I’ve looked at beautiful women in marriage relationships, I don’t just notice their nice bodies, I see men who are lucky to have someone with which to enjoy and be faithful. They aren’t just lucky because they each can have sex with a beautiful woman. They are lucky because they each have one woman who is theirs, and who each can share their full intimate self with.

    A man doesn’t just want a beautiful woman to have sex with, he wants ONE who is HIS.

    Women don’t realize that sex is a major part of how men show their love to their women, and receive it in return. Since women aren’t wired that way, they don’t see sex as that important to their marriages, and often they do great harm to their men and marriages by refusing to have sex. It’s like stepping on his air hose, watching him complain about suffocating, and then labeling him “childish” because his needs aren’t like yours.

    To be fair, many of us do want to be laid as much as possible when we are young, but only by our future wives. Until that happens we can’t help but notice a lot of women that we would enjoy the idea of having sex with. We can wonder if such attractive women might be a potential wife. The testosterone surging through our young brains is absolutely overwhelming and uncontrollable. Many of us are horny because our hormones bombard us continually from 12-25 years old or so. It affects us in powerful ways that we don’t even begin to understand until years later. We were wired to want physical intimacy with a woman, and when young, that desire can fuel our poor dating choices. It is not meant to be insulting or devaluing to women. It just means that we want to be with those women in every way (physically, emotionally, and spiritually), given the fulfillment of marriage vows first. We’re just too young at that point to make wiser decisions based on other factors.

    The problem is also that most young women would rather delay marriage for their career, making sex a moral impossibility for many men until 30+ years old. So we pine away for and pursue real relationships and marriages that never seem to last. Women don’t have this issue because they weren’t wired for physical intimacy. They can take it or leave it, and can get all their romantic emotional needs met whenever they want through perpetual dating. Marriage is not required.

    Until women realize that sex is best withheld for marriage, and then once married, must be given as frequently as desired, they are always going to use it as a manipulative tool to buy a man’s commitment and affections.

    The men that want sex before marriage are not worth being in relationships with.

    Women also need to invest much more time, energy, and effort into understanding, respecting, and meeting the needs of men, whether those men be co-workers, brothers-in-Christ they would never date, brothers-inChrist they want to date, friends, boyfriends, fiancés, or husbands.

    Many Christian men are now sitting on the sidelines waiting for Christian women to demonstrate genuine interest in us and to begin to invest in our lives as well.

    The days of women receiving 100% interest and investment with little to no interest and investment of their own are over.

  207. FeminineButNotFeminist October 31, 2013 at 4:01 am #

    Deti fan,

    I would guess that category C has the fewest, and for the most part is limited to christian women, maybe 5% at worst to 15% at best. The rest are probably the same amount roughly with category B pulling slightly ahead. And the so called christian women who sleep around (though I have my doubts about them being true christians but claiming to be so anyway) mostly fall into B as well. Of course this is just a very rough estimate and I wish the numbers looked better.

    Also, thank you for explaining that way in which men are wired. I knew much of that already but know the women reading this who don’t make a point to study men probably had no clue. I feel for those who either can’t find a wife / have a wife that refuses them – I have a healthy sex drive that I have to keep caged up (I feel for you all because I know its hard sometimes) and I’m just dying to unleash it on my future husband someday. I can only imagine how much harder it is to do with all that testosterone.

  208. FeminineButNotFeminist October 31, 2013 at 4:25 am #

    Slight correction… I knew the parts about men being wired that way differently than women, but not so much the part about men wanting just one for themselves even when they are younger. That is very encouraging for me to hear. I haven’t heard that before coming across this blog. I mean, even the most serious relationship I’ve ever had with a guy from church, he was pressuring me for it after about 4 months!

  209. earl October 31, 2013 at 5:18 am #

    “Many Christian men are now sitting on the sidelines waiting for Christian women to demonstrate genuine interest in us and to begin to invest in our lives as well.

    The days of women receiving 100% interest and investment with little to no interest and investment of their own are over.”

    Yup…I’ve done my part in displaying interest and investment…so I know how to do it. But I’m not going to do it anymore with women that don’t demonstrate some form of interest in me first.

    Does this mean I’ll be alone…possibly…but it also means that I won’t have to worry about mixed signals, near certain rejections, and wasting my time and money on a woman who doesn’t care.

  210. deti October 31, 2013 at 8:47 am #

    “the ones who are “looking for love in all the wrong places”. They believe they can’t get a guy without sex so they will sleep with someone they are interested in hoping beyond hope that he will fall in love with her. Then when he leaves her she goes on to the next guy and she repeats. “

    I don’t believe this is true, mainly because it doesn’t work.

    http://www.justfourguys.com/do-women-pursue-sex-with-alphas-for-the-commitment-or-for-the-sex/

    Women who give up quick and easy sex are not doing it because they want the guy to fall in love with her; they’re doing it because they want the sex. Why else would a woman repeatedly pursue a failed strategy? How many times does a woman have to see this fail before she figures out it’s not working? The fact that so many women pursue this failed template tells me something else is going on; something else is motivating her.

    My critics say no; she really does believe that she can get a guy by sleeping with her. And I admit that sometimes, not often, but sometimes, it works. There are a few female bloggers around (present company excluded) who boast of snagging their husbands in just this way. The problem is that it just will not work for most of them.

    And even if there are women who do believe this will work; it’s an unreasonable belief with scant support in real life. It’s a bit like my deciding to quit working and buy lottery tickets in the hopes that I’ll win big and become a lottery millionaire. Sure, there are a couple of people who’ve managed to do that. But the odds are it won’t work for me, and it’d be stupid to take a chance on it.

  211. FeminineButNotFeminist October 31, 2013 at 9:00 am #

    Deti,

    Just because it doesn’t make sense doesn’t mean it’s not true. And I didn’t say they always sleep with the guy right off the bat (those would be the category A women), nor do they spend the rest of their lives doing it. Many eventually give up just as many men have.

  212. deti October 31, 2013 at 9:50 am #

    FBNF:

    On what basis does a Category B woman base her belief that she can get the commitment of an attractive man with sex? What facts support such a belief? Surely that’s not what her parents told her.

    Assuming this is true (I am still not convinced), how does a woman come to believe that she can get commitment from an attractive man with sex?

    And why does she continue to believe it even in the face of repeated failure?

  213. Seth Connor October 31, 2013 at 10:00 am #

    “What has happen is that you have got older and you are not hit like before. I mean no offense, because I’m older than you.”

    That’s a good point. Right now I feel like I could marry someone my age or a year older, but when I get to in my late twenties/early thirties I’ll likely only be willing to go after girls who are younger than I. I’ll probably only be looking at the early thirties girls when I am in my late thirties or early fourties if I make it that far. By that time I’ll probably feel (more) like Earl: Displayed enough interest/investment. Really, being in your 30s for a woman is probably worse. Looks are fading, recently divorced women/baby-rabies ccarousel riders hitting the ring-lockdown scene in masse and men becoming less enthusiastic and interested by the minute. The person who could run an actually successful matchmaking business for Christian singles could get people to pay thousands. I know I am.

    As to the individual who urged me to wait until my SMV peaked; that time is now. Since I occupy a high-visibility well earning postion with a lot of social power I get the hungry eyes from the recent devorcees, hookup attempts from parents ranging from setup dinner-dates to “you should get to know my daughter, she’s got some tats and kids, but she’s cool as shit” (happened yesterday). Even a few truely attractive girls either for somehow failed to mention their current boyfriends, either seeking me for the upgrade until I found out they already were dating (Facebook official, yo) or for beta-orbiter status.

  214. Elspeth October 31, 2013 at 10:53 am #

    There are a few female bloggers around (present company excluded) who boast of snagging their husbands in just this way.

    Deti, deti, deti…

    “Boast”? Seriously. Dude…

  215. Deti Fan October 31, 2013 at 12:06 pm #

    “I mean, even the most serious relationship I’ve ever had with a guy from church, he was pressuring me for it after about 4 months!”

    I can’t really say much about him personally, other than he should never have been asking you or pressuring you for sex. I’m sorry you went through that!

    He might not, possibly, have been the best man to date, but it is also possible that he might not be as bad as most women would want to believe he is. I really don’t know.
    Only you can decide.

    Dating sucks for men.

    We give, give, give, and invest so much of ourselves into a longterm future with our girlfriends, hoping they might become our wives, and the more we invest, the more our hormones scream at us to seal the deal, until we force those hormones into submission.

    It is a conflict of interest – a great imbalance.

    We invest months and years of time, money, energy, emotions, thoughts, prayers, planning, and more into our girlfriends, but are not allowed to include our bodies into the equation. Our bodies are mentally forced to be cut-off from the process, even as they are pleading with our minds to restore that investment balance by adding to and catching up with all our other previous investments. The closer we are to our goal, the more we want it, and by “it” I mean to experience the fullness of that relationship, not just the limited portion we experience while dating.
    But our minds know that what might restore that investment balance and make us happy will likely destroy any chances of the future we are working towards (as-well-as hurt and piss-off God).
    So we give up what we want (and can almost taste) for the potential promise of that marriage – and the full experience of genuine lovemaking sex within that marriage.
    As we keep investing everything but our bodies, our bodies keep building up more and more pressure to have sex, creating an ever-growing resevoir of unreleased physical desire that screams at us.

    Imagine a mighty river that is rushing toward you, but then an obstacle – a dam – is placed in front of a large portion of it, creating a buildup of pressure behind that dam. The success of your dating can depend somewhat on the strength of that dam to “maintain its integrity” by holding back more and more of that pressure over time.

    After a few months, that pressure can become more significant, which could easily explain the 4 month mark in your relationship.

    This is just one of the the many complex aspects to being a man that go largely unnoticed and unappreciated by most women. We face multiple types of pressure each day.

    Assuming your boyfriend was a genuine Christian, it seems like his “dam” just broke, and he might have had more lust than love for you. Or he may have had a lot of real love for you, but just wasn’t very good at controlling it. Again, only you can decide.

    What women should not do is be so quick to label men as “perverts” and “losers,” because the truth is that women really have no clue how insanely difficult is is to be a man in the 21st century.

    We are not so one-dimensional!

  216. FeminineButNotFeminist October 31, 2013 at 7:30 pm #

    Deti,

    A lot of it has to do with the actions of non-christian men who, unfortunately, far outnumber christian men. A lot also has to do with what we see on tv. Keep in mind that men are just as mysterious to women as women are to men, and when women try to interpret things a man says / does she can easily guess totally wrong. The current generation’s culture is so very different than our parents’ we think “guys my age act soooooo different than what you’re (our parents) telling me, therefore the rules that applied in your time won’t work today”. When we see guys (mainly non-christian) practically trip over each other to go after the easy girls while making fun of those who don’t give it up so easily (calling us prudes and acting disgusted by that) we come to believe that “if I’m willing to have sex with a guy he will want me, if I’m not willing he will be disgusted by me. Therefore the logical thing to do to get a guy is to have sex with him”. You may say “it’s the other way around!”, but unfortunately not enough christian men are making their views known to us to make us think twice about it. Like I said in another post, I was totally unaware of this until I came across this blog a few days ago, and my head is still spinning from this revelation. Category B women can’t bear the idea of ending up alone so they lower their standards to include guys that will happily accept the sex without any intention of a commitment to her, all the while thinking she will just have to make him change his mind or that she has to earn his commitment this way so he doesn’t get bored with her and move on. Is she correct to think this? Absolutely not. Does it make sense (based ONLY on what she has seen men do) that she could come to this conclusion? Absolutely. You may not believe it, but I’m telling you what many women say amongst themselves when men aren’t around.

  217. an observer October 31, 2013 at 7:41 pm #

    the ones who are “looking for love in all the wrong places”

    Fbnf,

    Allow me. Its called overestimating your sexual market value, or smv. From a young age, girls are constantly told they are beautiful, georgous, ‘worth it’ and so on.

    Smv is a range. Picture a normal curve distribution, with average about five or six.

    Now add hypergamy, the inbuilt programming that drives girls to seek the best partner they can. A typical six thinks shes an eight. An overweight girl just sees curves.

    If you want a fuller explamnation,see the source here.
    http://therationalmale.com/2012/06/04/final-exam-navigating-the-smp/

    Gal ‘looking in wrong places’ is both deluded about her own worth, and played by social dominance.

    Herein lies the crux: the alternative is called associative mating, where prospective partners were matched according to their attributes. But in the age of hypergamy, where womens smv peaks early, young men are mostly dateless, and sometimes clueless, many adopting a nice guy persona that girls tell them they want.

    Doesnt work.

    Girls want a confident man, able to navigate the world. Ymmv, but the fact remains that most women wear strong bitch shields right through their twenties, turning down advances from guys in their range. Contrary to what is shown on tv, most guys are not stupid. If a guy is talking to you socially, hes probably interested. Its that simple.

    Aunty Haley appears to lament that shes not getting approached anymore. Thats her opinion. How many man has she turned aside in the past, becuase they werent good enough for her?

  218. an observer October 31, 2013 at 7:52 pm #

    Keep in mind that men are just as mysterious to women as women are to men

    Men are not complicated. Here are three things to do to attract a guy.
    1. Keep your hair long
    2. Keep the weight off
    3. Be nice

    The guys you describe suggest an apex fallacy in operation. Hypergamy causes women to want the best. Most guys are invisible to girls, because the girls are not attracted to them.

    The behaviour you describe, of guys who just want sex, is the behaviour of guys with options, aka, high status. For every guy you notice, there are several decent guys completely invisible to you. This is why past generations closely controlled dating and courtship. It was more widely acknowledged that leaving such critical assessments to young women would be disastrous.

    And it is. Its all about the tingles, the butterflies, the stomach churning attraction. Most normal guys do not generate this, but the problem is that most girls think they are mandatory criteria for good mate selection.

    Cultural FAIL.

  219. an observer October 31, 2013 at 7:59 pm #

    not enough christian men are making their views known to us

    1. Most christian men at your smv rank are invisible
    2. Women dont believe what men say

    I commend your curiousity and persistence. What do you do now? Argue some more? Or try and learn?

  220. FeminineButNotFeminist October 31, 2013 at 8:04 pm #

    Deti fan,

    Thank you for yet another beautifully written explanation. You have such a way with words! I have learned so much from you and have very much enjoyed your posts. I hope it’s not to bold to say this, but I’m increasingly amazed that you are still single. It gives me hope to know that there are still some single guys around who think the way you speak, so thank you :-)

    As far as wether or not he was a good one to date, I don’t know either. He very well could have loved me or not, though I figured it was the former until he broke it off later on (the reason I didn’t break it off myself is becaise he had started talking about getting married more than a month before – soon I know – so I figured it must have been something like what you explained (though I couldn’t have explained it at the time)). It’s hard to say though because he did a complete 360, literally overnight, and backed out without giving me an explanation (hence the beginning of my quest to understand men). I figured I must have done something (totally cluelessly, not intentionally) to hurt or scare him, and I did not want to do that ever again. But anyway, I was loosing hope about finding a good fish in the sea and you are proving that good fish do exist so thanks again! Sorry if that’s TMI about an ex, just wanted to put my 2 cents in.

  221. sunshinemary October 31, 2013 at 8:18 pm #

    [Redacted.]

  222. an observer October 31, 2013 at 8:23 pm #

    Ouch.

  223. an observer October 31, 2013 at 8:32 pm #

    he had started talking about getting married

    Classic line. He sensed you were conservative and played you for it. He never had any intention to put a ring on it. Since you refused to put out, hes out of there to get someone who will.

    Diagnosis: minor playa with some pickup artistry.

    Repeat: you’re not seeing the guys who would be a good match for you.

  224. galloper6 October 31, 2013 at 8:37 pm #

    May I modify Observers list.
    1. Long hair is a womans glory. From and old book.
    2.clothes should fit and present woman. Bold colors a plus 3 ATTITUDE see Danica Patrick 4. Skinny not need see Nigella Lawson.She has the 5 I just listed.

  225. galloper6 October 31, 2013 at 8:38 pm #

    has the three I just listed.

  226. FeminineButNotFeminist October 31, 2013 at 8:41 pm #

    Observer,

    Wow, is that assessment of womens’ perception of their own beauty wrong! We are not told we are beautiful from a young age, quite the opposite! We’re constantly fed messages from pop culture like “if you don’t wear a D cup you’re not hot enough”, if you don’t have a size zero waist you’re too fat”, “if you don’t look like this airbrushed figure on a magazine cover you aren’t beautiful” etc. The cosmetic plastic surgery industry is a multi-billion dollar industry for this reason. You say most women are a 5 or 6? Well most of us deep down think we are much lower after putting on our make-up and all. If you don’t believe me start asking women to rate themselves on a scale of 1 – 10 and be shocked at the results. At least 2 out of 3 will rate themselves lower than you would think. And I am trying to learn (and have learned a lot) but I’m also trying to teach. Call that arguing if you want, but it would do you some good to try to learn as well. Just sayin’.

  227. FeminineButNotFeminist October 31, 2013 at 8:51 pm #

    “He never had any intention to put a ring on it”

    Actually, he did put a ring on it, then changed his mind shortly thereafter.

  228. FeminineButNotFeminist October 31, 2013 at 9:33 pm #

    Observer,

    I’m sorry… after going back and re-reading my “wow you were wrong” comment I realize it sounded very rude and that was not my intention.

  229. donalgraeme October 31, 2013 at 11:33 pm #

    Well, I have missed out on a great comment thread…

    FBNF, if you are looking for other places to learn, then I humbly recommend my own blog. And if you have anything to teach as well, then all the more reason to stop by. There are a few women like yourself who frequent my blog, and I find their contributions to be quite valuable. In addition, many of my male commenters are also practicing Christians who wish to honor God’s commands as well.

  230. donalgraeme October 31, 2013 at 11:43 pm #

    Also, addressing your desire to see Christian men speak up about their preferences in female behavior…

    That can be difficult for men to carry out in many instances. The feminization of the Church in recent years has created an especially hostile environment for men in some churches. It is so bad that in some churches men cannot speak up about what they really believe/feel without getting kicked out.

    This is no accident. The increased power of women and the cowardice of male church leaders who bow to female whims was designed, in part, to achieve this end: silence men. At least, that is my running theory. Others hold to it as well, I believe.

  231. an observer November 1, 2013 at 2:52 am #

    Fbnf,

    I am aware of womens insecurities, and dont intend to argue the point with you.

    Fwiw, you responded exactly as i would expect from a feminised womans thinking. I did not take it as rude, merely disappointing. Inadequacies abound, yes,spread by women to foster competition. Women compete for the best men, and compete viciously. The magazine cover women you feel intimidated by illustrates a good point. Men are not your enemy. Your worst enemy is the woman standing next to you, the bffs and besties who compete for the same men you express an interest in.

    Women are also notoriously misleading in what they say. This is because female loyalty is to the herd, and to saving face, meaning many women rarely say what they mean, or what they actually think. The manosphere maxim is never trust what a woman says, only what she does. A commenter named Deti has this down to a art form. If you ever meet him, be honoured if you see his q36b hamsterlator in action. It is a masterpiece of engineering in translating what a woman says into what it actually means.

    I suggest you consider donals offer. There are a lot of topics to cover, and much unlearning to do.

    I sense you are well meaning, just uninformed. Dont be offended. Men can be brutally honest, but my experience is that red pill men are rarely cruel. Angry at times and justifiably so, but not cruel.

    The manosphere is out there with new things to learn. Donal has invited you on a journey. Will you come along and risk an adventure?

  232. earl November 1, 2013 at 6:16 am #

    “Keep in mind that men are just as mysterious to women as women are to men”

    Food, sex, silence…not necessarily in that order, but those are the three things that are most important.

    Hopefully that takes care of everything that is mysterious about our gender.

  233. FeminineButNotFeminist November 1, 2013 at 7:19 am #

    Observer,

    You’re right about me being uninformed. I don’t deny that I’m very naive about many ways of the world. Among other things I am just hearing about things like red / blue pill, MGTOW, manosphere, and other such terms from this blog. I’ve had to google them for an official definition just to make sense of some comments here. I do intend to take Donal up on his offer. Speaking of which…

    Donal, thank you for inviting me over!

  234. FeminineButNotFeminist November 1, 2013 at 9:02 am #

    Hmmm… in all my 28 years I don’t recall ever hearing a woman describe the man of her dreams as being an uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopath.

  235. jack November 1, 2013 at 9:11 am #

    FBNF-

    But that is who they pick, so very, very often, so one should always believe what women do, because they do not do what they say.

  236. sunshinemary November 1, 2013 at 9:31 am #

    @ Haley

    I’ve sent you an email.

  237. ricosuaveguapo November 1, 2013 at 10:26 am #

    “Hmmm… in all my 28 years I don’t recall ever hearing a woman describe the man of her dreams as being an uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopath.”

    No, but that’s who they sleep with. And even for marriage, many want someone who has elements of those traits – just not with her.

  238. an observer November 1, 2013 at 12:39 pm #

    Fbnf,

    I tend to forget that not everyone is in the same page with the jargon and abbreviations used. There is a helpful glossary of manosphere terms you may find useful:
    https://beijaflorbeyondthesunset.wordpress.com/manosphere-glossary/

    Commiserations on the broken engagement. That would hurt.

  239. earl November 1, 2013 at 1:53 pm #

    “Hmmm… in all my 28 years I don’t recall ever hearing a woman describe the man of her dreams as being an uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopath.”

    We’ve learned to quit listening to what you say…and watch who you go after.

    And guess what the lion share go after uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopaths.

    Now if females would go after the responsible, hard-working, caring individuals…more men would be that.

  240. ghostof503 November 1, 2013 at 2:01 pm #

    No, it’s because women want the cads to date them, but cads know they don’t have to and will still keep getting the sexy-time. Full-stop.

  241. FeminineButNotFeminist November 1, 2013 at 2:58 pm #

    Thank you for the glossary link observer (and the commiserations). I have a hunch I will be referring back to it often for awhile until I get the hang of it.

    By the way, I just realized I’ve been overloading this thread with posts the last few days and am probably starting to get annoying, so I think I will tone it down a bit and read more than I write. I guess you could say I’m like a kid in a candy store and trying to absorb as much manosphere info as I can (partially by saying what I think is true just to see what kind of corrective feedback I get back, which probably does look like arguing). For the record I’m nowhere near this talkative in real life, I’m actually very reserved and soft-spoken in person (often mistaken for being shy).

  242. galloper6 November 1, 2013 at 5:19 pm #

    FBNF learning begins with question. Stay with us. As fo sociopaths, Every man here has seen up close, beautiful women who takle up and stay with “beaters and cheaters deadbeat jailbird pigs. They tolerate the beating, cheating and him living fat off her paycheck, as if permanant unemployed thugs are rare and valuble.
    That is just of the games we are playing against.

  243. galloper6 November 1, 2013 at 5:20 pm #

    just one of the toxic games

  244. redpillsetmefree November 1, 2013 at 8:43 pm #

    Hah.
    I swear every conversation on every Manosphere blog turns into the exact same argument.
    I’ve come to the conclusion that people clearly just want to argue, because these same questions have been asked and answered a dozen times by now, by a dozen different people, in a dozen different ways.

  245. Twenty November 1, 2013 at 9:18 pm #

    @Deti Fan

    “We invest months and years of time, money, energy, emotions, thoughts, prayers, planning, and more into our girlfriends, but are not allowed to include our bodies into the equation.”

    If this isn’t at least as hard on the g/f as it is on the man, she’s not marriage material. A woman w/o strong sexual attraction to her man is very unlikely to make a good wife.

  246. jack November 1, 2013 at 9:37 pm #

    Nothing thrills my heart more than the occasional story I read about a woman who is old and alone, bitter and disappointed because she was a hypergamous twit.

    Now, you might think that I want them to understand and own what they did, but I don’t care that much, because either way they are in anguish. Every time a spinster sheds a tear, an angel gets its wings…

    It took a long time to become so cynical and desirous of watching the ruination of others. But the selfish heartlessness of American women was my role model. And I would crawl a mile through flaming coals to shame a slut to her face.

  247. redpillsetmefree November 1, 2013 at 10:49 pm #

    Also. A lot of people are mad that the Scriptures are against fornication, yet so many people use it, and “get away with it” and still end up with the relationships that they want.

  248. whatnews November 2, 2013 at 2:15 am #

    [As fo sociopaths, Every man here has seen up close, beautiful women who takle up and stay with “beaters and cheaters deadbeat jailbird pigs.]

    This is another discussions, but it may help. I think that most or nearly all women are attracted to men who are emotionless and at least as sociopathic as they are, otherwise they are perceived as weak and needy. But that does not mean “beaters and cheaters deadbeat jailbird pigs”, it simply means cold selfish men who don’t care about any specific woman.

    However a significant minority of women, let’s say (handwaving) 1/3 of them is attracted to proactively nasty psychopaths; they are still attracted to men with a tough attitude, but they are more attracted to the men with a thug’s attitude.

    A smaller minority of women are simply intoxicated by men with a smell of blood on their hands, those with a record of dealing out misery and pain. As easily proven by the number of women who get infatuated with murderers, gangsters,

    [They tolerate the beating, cheating and him living fat off her paycheck, as if permanant unemployed thugs are rare and valuble.]

    But they are certainly rare, and to a woman they are very valuable as potential genetic fathers.

    They are are rare because they are essentially parasites and parasitism can only be a winning economic strategy for a minority.

    Most men are “betas” because for a very very long time men have been group cursorial hunters; that is men who have to get along with other men for a long time to work together to finish “projects” and to bring (literally) the bacon home.

    Important note: many anthropologists and zoologists write that human attitudes have been shaped by being group cursorial hunters, but I never saw any of them also point out that this applies only to male humans, as female humans have never been group cursorial hunters; this probably is one of the causes of the significantly higher level of sociopathy of the average woman compared to the average man.

    As to valuable as potential genetic fathers, most of women’s attitudes is shaped by childbearing; traditionally women invested in 10-15 pregnancies in their lifetime, and then in raising 4-6 children to the age where they could work hard for her.

    Therefore women would be very careful to get the best possible genetic fathers for those huge investments of her, as it would be terrible to waste all that work on begatting the genetic legacy of a wimpy loser.

    It turns out that for most of history the most successful men were not actually the most successful “beta” group cursorial hunters, but the minority who were violent thugs and therefore ruled over the others. In other words, the legacy of a long time of evolution is that for many women attraction is to people like Reynaud de Chatillon, the nobleman described in this post:

    delong.typepad.com/sdj/2012/02/marginal-products-and-earnings-in-historical-perspective.html

    “tall, strong, handsome, wielding his two-handed sword In Nomine Domine, and suffering from severe impulse-control problems–had much, much higher earnings than I would have had had I been back in the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem in 1183. … were Reynaud de Chatillon to be here now he would be working the loading dock at Target at near-minimum wage and on Thorazine, for the skills that were his comparative advantage are to typically highly rewarded today–if he were not in Folsom Prison.”

    Middle ages nobleman were essentially nasty gangsters running protection rackets, a bit like the Sopranos, but more violent.

    Note that “tall” used to describe only rich/successful people, because height is largely a function of being fed protein rich food, and for a long time rich people were usually 20cm-50cm taller than poor people, because their parents could afford to give them protein rich food (there are other angles to that).

  249. whatnews November 2, 2013 at 2:35 am #

    [The feminization of the Church in recent years has created an especially hostile environment for men in some churches.]

    Note “the Church”, but “some churches”. This feminization has happened mostly in those churches that depend on tithing and donations for their income.

    Because you can rest assured that most of that tithing and donations is done by women, in part because many congregations are majority women, but also because women know that pay-per-play works.

    Those churches with preachers who pander shamelessly to their majority-female congregations get higher tithes and donations than otherwise, and expand and become more popular.Simony has not disappeared…

  250. FeminineButNotFeminist November 2, 2013 at 3:34 am #

    Galloper,

    You make a good point, learning does begin with questions. Though if I do get annoying with my amount of questions I do want someone to tell me. When you said “jailbird” that got me thinking about watching my much older brother’s behavior with women (I suppose I didn’t think about this during our lengthy discussion because I haven’t seen him in years) and must therefore cave on the sociopathic bits (as it relates to some women, not all, sorry if I sound like a broken record here). He had no shortage of women, though he never could keep one for long (whether by his choice or not I don’t know). I remember wondering “how little self respect do you have to have to put up with his crap?!”. These crazy women somehow found him appealing while I always found him terrifying. I don’t understand their behavior so I don’t dare try to explain it away.

  251. an observer November 2, 2013 at 4:14 am #

    Outcast put up a repost that may be of general interest.

    It concerns how a divorced beta man might feel after watching thr bad boys take all.

    Read it here:
    http://outcastsuperstar.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/a-letter-about-someone-i-once-knew.html

  252. Novaseeker November 2, 2013 at 6:33 am #

    Wow, what a train wreck this comment thread has become.

    Haley, in response to the core issue of your OP, which you recapitulated well here:

    4. Blog hostess writes about how men supposedly are desperate for sex but in day-to-day interactions with men, the men seem sterile and uninterested in women.

    I think it’s that in most of these day to day situations, it’s generally considered inappropriate to sexualize things. I also notice that interactions between *most* men and women in the workplace are very muted and sterile.

    I don’t think that’s because people are disinterested, but rather that the world, when it comes to how men and women relate, is now generally carved into “zones”. The work “zone” is very sterile and professional, and it’s considered inappropriate to sexualize it by flirting and so on. Some people do so, but generally the only ones who do are the extreme extroverts who cannot help it, and who also do not get socially/professionally docked for it. The church “zone” can also be quite sterile, unless you are in the “sub-zone” of singles group, etc., where such sexualization is permitted to some degree (yet those groups have their own problems, of which you are well aware). There is a “dating/meeting” zone, as well, but that zone generally exists either in nightlife areas or online — these are zones where it is expected that the interaction will be sexualized and targeted at “meeting someone” rather than simply “fellowshipping” or “working together”. So, that’s really the primary zone where interactions like this occur.

    Of course, there are people who transgress the “zone rules”, but as you’ve seen there aren’t very many of them. I think the zones exist because unrelated/unmarried men and women are now spending unprecedented levels of time around each other, and it’s seen as bad to have all of these areas sexualized to a significant degree. So they become mostly sterilized of sexualization, while one zone remains reserved for sexualization and is kind of hyper-sexualized as a result.

    A shorter way to read this would be: it’s going to be very hard to meet someone at work or at church. Online is probably the best way, because you probably will not want to do the nightlife approach for values reasons.

  253. jack November 2, 2013 at 8:04 am #

    It’s a cold, cold work the women are crafting for themselves. Essentially they only want the top 20% of men, and they want the bottom 80% to either drop dead or just fix their laptop and avert their eyes.

    The near absolute heartlessness and narcissism of the female soul in the West is nakedly obvious to anyone who cares to be honest with himself.

    Women love the dark triad in men, because they also embody it.

  254. Deti Fan November 2, 2013 at 9:44 am #

    Jack,

    You’re not much into hyperbole are you?!

    I understand the therapeutic comfort and satisfaction derived from witnessing “justice” that you’re describing, but your words do seem especially cold – and equally heartless.

    Please try not to rejoice when your enemies stumble.
    Only God understands real justice – as He does your anguish as well.

    I hope you find peace.

  255. jack November 2, 2013 at 10:55 am #

    Deti fan-

    I learned it from the church girls. They taught me everything I know about having a Machiavellian outlook.

    And I would think my writing comes closer to the definition of purple prose than hyperbole. But I was not an English major, so no guarantees.

  256. Ton November 2, 2013 at 11:49 am #

    The way many, perhaps even most women act, they are the enemy. The only way to convert an enemy is by defeating them, crushing their ability to resist and subjecting them to your rule for awhile. Then you can slowly bring them into your life and culture. To do that requires a hard heart and reslove. Thankfully women, most particularly Chistian women are hardening masculine hearts.

  257. Farm Boy November 2, 2013 at 2:11 pm #

    “”The Market for Lemons: Quality Uncertainty and the Market Mechanism”

    This was mentioned upthread, and deserves periodic re-mention. The short story — when the market is full of lemons, and the fact that lemons are not easily distinguishable from the non-lemons; gives all products the assumption of lemons.

    This is especially important with respect to women. A woman’s n count is not readily visible, and many character flaws can be hidden in the short term by putting on an act. Fellas know this and are always on the alert for “tells” with respect to flaws in character.

    The flip side of the situation is also a problem. It can be difficult for a women to prove that she is of good character. So in such a case, “why should I be good, when it does me no good?”

    As for guys, their attributes that are attractive to women are more difficult to fake. It is not easy to fake money, power, social dominance, etc. The lemon market concept functions less so for the fellas.

    What the solution? My nephew fixes up cars and sells them. He is honest and does not cheat his customers. Because he lives in a rural area with little people turnover, he has built a reputation that compensates for the natural aspects of the used car market. How can this be translated to the modern MMP? Dunno

  258. Farm Boy November 2, 2013 at 2:16 pm #

    “Hmmm… in all my 28 years I don’t recall ever hearing a woman describe the man of her dreams as being an uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopath.”

    It would be embarrassing to admit that that was what one was attracted to, would it not.

  259. Farm Boy November 2, 2013 at 2:19 pm #

    I guess you could say I’m like a kid in a candy store and trying to absorb as much manosphere info as I can

    Guys can be relentless builders of models of reality.

  260. Farm Boy November 2, 2013 at 2:21 pm #

    these same questions have been asked and answered a dozen times by now, by a dozen different people, in a dozen different ways.

    Perhaps, but this must be done to inform more people of the truth. Consider it a civic duty

  261. Farm Boy November 2, 2013 at 2:24 pm #

    A lot of people are mad that the Scriptures are against fornication, yet so many people use it, and “get away with it” and still end up with the relationships that they want.

    Yes, the relationship that they want, until they don’t want it.

    Everything is fleeting with women, unless they are under a strong hand

  262. Farm Boy November 2, 2013 at 2:27 pm #

    Though if I do get annoying with my amount of questions I do want someone to tell me.

    Many of us want the truth to get out.

  263. Farm Boy November 2, 2013 at 2:33 pm #

    The way many, perhaps even most women act, they are the enemy

    Much of it is that they are ruthlessly trying to appropriate resources and giving little in return. They are much like the robber barons. At least the robber barons presided over a period of unprecedented economic growth.

  264. redpillsetmefree November 2, 2013 at 2:54 pm #

    Want to stop beating your head up against the wall?
    http://redpillpushers.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/same-old-questions-same-old-answers/

  265. Deti Fan November 2, 2013 at 3:11 pm #

    Yes, Christian women have hardened our male hearts. I have experienced this as well.

    They have not been friendly, nor kind. Many do not deserve our love, as they definitely are not our allies. Yet, still, they also are not our enemies, for they are only blind.

    So, I will pray that Christian women might see themselves (and us) as God does, and once again choose to live humbly the words they profess.

    I want to see Christian women respect and value all men, not just the ones they wish to date or receive help from.

    I’m not holding my breath for this to happen, but I do want to fight against the bitterness, hate, indifference, and division between us, for those indeed are our real enemies.

    Hopefully, some Christian women will want and do the same.

  266. Mghow_Masculinist November 2, 2013 at 3:45 pm #

    @ redpillsetmefree

    I read the link you posted and have to say, I couldn’t have put it better myself. It was an excellent, clear, bold and concise writeup.

    However, I do not see it as beating oneself against the wall simply because the more that is out there, the more the truth of the matter will be realised by those who weren’t already in the know.

    Clearly there are still many who have no idea about the truth of the redpill and are frustrated. There must have been a time where you weren’t aware of this and I hadn’t come across discussions like this until recently. Maybe you were like me, always knew something wasn’t quite right before you knew for sure.

    As for people bitching and moaning, I see more guys opting out than anything else. I think before they realised, more were playing the game, getting with a carousel rider or being used etc.

    Now, I think more have wised up and carousel riders may be starting to lose there fallback guys. I know many carousel riders will start to complain asking ‘where have all the good guys gone’ when they get older and the alpha’s have moved onto younger prey but they used to have an army of beta’s to fall back on but now even they are starting to wise up. Perhaps that is part of the ‘problem’.

    Either way, I certainly know all of the redpill truth you talked about but I still continue to post in such threads that are ‘all the same’ lol. Too many still don’t know the truth and need to be educated. Without this education, one cannot make informed choices. Everyone had their time before taking the redpill but we forget the Matrix so soon after enlightenment.

  267. imnobody00 November 2, 2013 at 4:19 pm #

    “Hmmm… in all my 28 years I don’t recall ever hearing a woman describe the man of her dreams as being an uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopath.”

    You’re right. They always say that they are not that bad, that they are good but they are misunderstood. In reality, they are complete assholes but the women are “in luurrrv” with them (read: they makes the women tingle).

    My last experience: my sister’s friend is dating a drug-addict. He has done rehab but he is still doing drugs. She says: “After all, many people do drugs. And I know that, when he becomes a father, he will change and will be an exemplary father”.

    Cluelessness, thy name is woman.

  268. whatnews November 3, 2013 at 1:59 am #

    [“Hmmm… in all my 28 years I don’t recall ever hearing a woman describe the man of her dreams as being an uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopath.”

    You’re right. They always say that they are not that bad, that they are good but they are misunderstood.]

    That’s just the rationalizing.. But actually most women do describe their ideal men that way, just as most women do not lie about their dating preferences and many other topics; men think that they do lie, but it is a misunderstanding, because women use different meanings for the same words that men use. I’ll explain…

    For an average woman a desirable “alpha” man is just normal, because average women are themselves “uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopaths” compared to average men. In other words, average women and the men they desire look like “uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopaths” only from the point of view of average men; it is average men who look like wimpy losers from the point of view of average men and the “alpha” men they desire. It is all relative.

    Therefore average women don’t use “uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopaths” to describe themselves and the “alpha” men they are attracted to; for the men they use “confident”, “mysterious”, and they use “strong”, “independent” for themselves. Also they use “needy”, “clingy” to describe those men who are less “uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopaths” than themselves or the “alpha” men they are attracted to.

    Apart from “confident” and “mysterious”, words that have different meanings for men and women include “consent”, “choice”, “relationship”, “chemistry”, … They are all euphemisms from the point of view of men.

    In the case of “uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopath” I think that the euphemisms used by women are genuine as they do have a different base for normality. But in general women use euphemism in a manipulative way, to deliberately redefine meanings to their advantage.

  269. galloper6 November 3, 2013 at 6:38 am #

    An extreme example of the subject is the Boston bomber;s female fan club.

  270. Farm Boy November 3, 2013 at 7:42 am #

    An extreme example of the subject is the Boston bomber;s female fan club.

    Is it that extreme? Seems common

  271. Farm Boy November 3, 2013 at 7:44 am #

    In the case of “uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopath” I think that the euphemisms used by women are genuine as they do have a different base for normality.

    So was it intentional, or did it just happen?

    Perhaps like a pregnancy.

  272. Farm Boy November 3, 2013 at 8:03 am #

    Do people even want to date anymore?

    It would seem that the answer is “not so much”.

    Perhaps for good reason.

  273. poiuytrewq November 3, 2013 at 5:01 pm #

    http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/11/03/fake-femme-fatale-dupes-it-guys-at-us-government-agency/
    Maybe the guys are too tired from trying to hold on to their jobs. In contrast, this is how it works for women:
    In fact, the real woman works as a waitress at a restaurant frequented by many of the targeted agency’s employees, Constantin reports.

    Nonetheless, nobody recognized her.

    Not only did the government employees not recognize their waitress, they flocked to the fake persona bearing her likeness.

    Here’s how popular Emily Williams proved within just 24 hours of her birth:

    She had 60 Facebook connections.
    She garnered 55 LinkedIn connections with employees from the targeted organization and its contractors.
    She had three job offers from other companies.

    As time went on, Emily Williams received LinkedIn endorsements for skills, while male staffers at the agency offered to help her out with short-cuts around the normal channels set up for new hires that would net her a work laptop and network access (which the penetration testing team obtained but did not use).

  274. Jason November 4, 2013 at 1:20 pm #

    I belong to a church that has quite a few more men than women. A lot actually. Most of the men are from their early thirties to mid forties. Just about all the men here have “never” been married, and they don’t have children. We all have jobs. We all came to the Lord after living in the world “our way” and failing miserably. The women that are there still find every one of us “not good enough” to date, be seen with, or the “it just wouldn’t work” excuses when we do ask one of them out.

    Too many then will date non-Christian men, and then have the gall to say “Well, if there were some real men here, we would not have to date non-Christians”

    Men get “man up” sermons and “Bible Studies” and “accountability” and the women just have to show up, not EVEN repent. Not even consider turning from their past. Not even looking at and using the “Ten Commandments” as a mirror to look at, fix, and understand sin in their own life.

    Most of us Christian men are sick of it. It’s easier to follow Christ. Easier to to live a life worth of His favor, and not some woman who is “never happy”

    Yeah, we have to be strong against porn. Yeah, we have a stigma to bear because a lot of pastors (like Driscoll for instance) shames us into being lesser men because we are not married, and we are not “asking” all of these “amazing” women out.

    A lot of men were scoffed at shamed right before the Babylonian captivity as well.

    Too many Christian women want a bank account and a bad boy….WHO BECOMES the nice guy. Those of us who are there now, in our thirties and forties are tired of it, and most of us have decided with a true repentant heart to follow Christ over fleeting female sexual psychology, beauty, and “love” on a whim.

    I’ll take the eternal. If a woman indeed who strives for Proverbs 31 (and they are out there) I pray for encouragement. I pray for your discernment. I pray for your happiness in a man of God. Stay true girly, and don’t let any other woman, or man tell you to stray or be different.

  275. The Real Truth November 6, 2013 at 9:42 am #

    Most of the women out there nowadays don’t want a serious relationship anymore since many of them do Cheat to begin with, and it is Very Hard today unlike years ago when it certainly was Much Easier meeting a Good Woman to settle down with.

  276. SirNemesis November 11, 2013 at 1:09 pm #

    Common reaction to the dating game:

    “A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.”

  277. Chris Dagostino November 12, 2013 at 6:57 am #

    LOL, Nem.

    “How about a nice game of chess?”

  278. FlybyNight November 12, 2013 at 6:59 am #

    You rethink the paradigm and strategy to move slow when you lose out to the players..you choose you get your results.

  279. an observer November 16, 2013 at 1:46 am #

    Jason,

    Sounds much llike every church I ever attended.

    This is the lack of gratitude most women carry around:
    http://www.mommyish.com/2012/10/18/step-parents-single-mom-468/

  280. earl November 16, 2013 at 5:18 am #

    Women don’t realize the chess game is being played where they get trapped.

    Don’t be the white knight and save the queen…lest you get trapped too.

  281. Aaron the Just November 18, 2013 at 5:46 am #

    Doing the dating game is dangerous if I go on a date or two and it doesn’t work; I’ll end up ostracised from her friends, and potentially she’ll try to sabotage any mutual male friends we have. Trust me, though: we’re all busy privately with our locker-room talk with other male friends, and then enjoying filthy thoughts, about, say, the women we saw in church yesterday wearing knee-high boots and short skirts. We’ll sure as heck make sure no female ever knows we glanced at anything but her eyes.

    I scan potential dates from people several degrees removed from me (preferrably via a mutual acquaintance both people dislike or think is crazy). Then, no harsh feedback makes it back to my primary social circle.

    Christian women are notoriously bad about this. If they want more dates, they might want to consider not using the nuclear option when I move on after the second date. (And no, I don’t have sex, hold hands, or make out on date #1 or #2. Just talking: do you love Jesus, etc.)

    Unfortunately, it’s safer and less spiritually harmful for me to date non-Christian women than girls from church. I also get a bonus chance to lead them to the Lord (which is what men are supposed to be doing anyway); girls in church? Not a chance. They think they’re holier than I am.

  282. KL November 20, 2013 at 11:26 am #

    Guys approach women….through internet dating. Approaching girls you know is a terrible idea. If they shoot you down, you get the awkward situations and possibly even social ostracization from the friend’s circle. No risk of that with randos. Other than the cost of coffee.

  283. Sammi Crowley November 20, 2013 at 3:13 pm #

    As a woman i don’t want men asking me out because you all are just bald, fat, ugly, and most importantly: CRAZY. you nut jobs need to just stay from us. you shoot up schools and are violent. How long did you think you could behave like that and not expect women to get tired of you? I am NOT a fan of romance fiction or films but you all lost out to Twilight-a piece of young adult fiction. You got dropped like bags of poo poo. There are reasons. I listed them. You all are just not nice and people have grown tired and simply moved on. It has nothing to do with this mythical “feminized man” you keep bringing up, or anything to do with the “alpha/beta” male stereotypes, You men are just not worth the time anymore. Not worth dressing up for, not worth doing our hair for, not worth cooking for. Dating you is a waste of people’s time and energy. Also, the bulk of you are not intelligent, not faithful, and don’t appreciate women who cook, work & try to contribute. These are some of the reasons that women have lost interest in you. I am straight & I have had it, too. I have absolutely wasted my life dating. You don’t like women but women don’t like you either, so it’s mutual. No love lost here. Oh well, we tried. It just didn’t work out.

  284. Hahaha November 20, 2013 at 7:01 pm #

    @ Sammy Crowley

    Hahahaha

    I’m not sure if you’re serious or just trying to troll us, but you do make make me laugh a lot!

    So are you on “Team Edward” or “Team Taylor”?

    If men suck, and you don’t want anything to do with them, then why are you wasting you’re time on this blog? Don’t you have some cooking and cleaning to do?

    Come back when you’re an adult and want to have a real conversation.

  285. The_Collapsar November 21, 2013 at 7:18 am #

    Whoa I think I have to call Poe’s Law on Sammi Crowley. That’s like the most stereotypical manosphere misogynistic rant – just with the sexes flipped.

  286. galloper6 November 22, 2013 at 11:13 am #

    Have you seen Charles Manson’s 25 year old girlfriend? THIS is the disfunctional we have to deal with.

  287. jack November 22, 2013 at 11:41 pm #

    Great job deti-

    You still the man. The Christo-sphere is full of nothing but female solipsism.

    No wonder Christian men are bowing out, all we have to choose from is alpha widows and current/former fornicators.

    And there is nothing like an alpha widow when it comes to hating men for having human feelings and expressing them. Perhaps the real question being asked is, “why can’t I have everything I want”.

    Go ahead and ban me haley, I’ll take it as an honor. Before I go, though, I just want to say:

    NRFS(tm)

    ciao

  288. jack November 22, 2013 at 11:51 pm #

    And from your response to deti, one might actually get the idea that you get some kind of cruel pleasure out of men not having happy romantic and sexual marriages.

    Very telling.

  289. ricosuaveguapo November 25, 2013 at 5:47 am #

    “Guys approach women….through internet dating. Approaching girls you know is a terrible idea. If they shoot you down, you get the awkward situations and possibly even social ostracization from the friend’s circle. No risk of that with randos. Other than the cost of coffee.”

    Indeed… a younger woman I know in passing (a never-married mom, natch) complained on Facebook about men asking for dates via texting or Facebook, saying they should in essence “man up” and ask in person. Of course, she got the usual “you go grrrl, know ur worth!” response from the peanut gallery.

    My thoughts were:

    A) Why should a man risk nuclear rejection in public?

    B) This isn’t the man’s problem. If women refused date requests not done in person or on the phone, men wouldn’t use texting or Facebook to ask. But women don’t, so men do.

  290. John November 28, 2013 at 3:29 pm #

    I don’t think it’s necessarily about being 100% certain before you ask a woman out but more of the fact of women showing at least some interest in wanting to date you. I mean it’s impossible to tell if a woman is being flirty because she’s actually interested in you or not. Then there is the fact that some women complain about being approached or people showing interest and some women are cruel to those who do approach. Even when approaching realistically. The thing is also I’ve always been a bit indifferent to dating on top of that, partially do to lack of interest and partially do to not understanding it. Though I have given approaching women and asking them out a decent try but the thing is I’ve got rejected every time I’ve asked someone out.

    Though in all fairness I have had women come up to me and show blatant interest of just ask me out. This doesn’t mean I won’t still try and approach women when I’m single, it’s just not on my priorities. I’ve got university to stress about and majoring in physics doesn’t help that stress. I just don’t have a vast amount of time. The little bit of time I do have I just would rather spend with friends or hobbies or being alone. Something stress free. I don’t feel like going out and getting rejected and trying to figure out how to approach women and figuring out if a women is genuinely flirting to show interest or if she just wants attention.

    I also can understand what a few guys said about being worn down from trying and being tired of being rejected. The truth being apathetic/ indifferent to dating just seems more enjoyable especially if you’re not too experienced at dating. After a while of being rejected and hearing no after no after no, from various types of girls you start to wonder if there is something wrong with you. After asking friends (make and female) and people who rejected you and getting no answer of what’s wrong with you or how to improve, and people telling you that there is nothing wrong with you, well you just tend not to care too much. You end up being happy with whoever you are and just let people come to you, if you’re lucky enough to have people come to you. If not then you remain alone and do stuff that makes your life enjoyable.

    Though from the few people I’ve dated, I discovered that the risk was not worth the reward. Dating doesn’t feel amazing or too special. Yeah for a while it feels nice to have someone else there who loves and cares about you but after a while it feels like a burden. It feels like no matter what you’re doing or how well things seem to be going, you could be in a happy relationship one day then single again the next.

  291. Jeff December 1, 2013 at 5:52 am #

    I am a 28 year old white male who’s been living in California all my life. I started asking out girls when I was a lot younger and every single one rejected me up until recently. I’ve asked out over 70 girls in my life, believe it or not. I was pretty aggressive, particularly when I was younger.

    I’ve always been in excellent shape, 5’8″ 130-140lbs., not really muscular looking but more of an athletic build. Always clean-shaven, nice haircut, and wore clean clothes. Always had good posture and confident body language.

    I wasn’t good looking when I was younger.. in fact, I was ugly to the point where random women in public would tell me so, either directly (“eww, you’re ugly”) or indirectly (by showing a look of disgust on their face when we made eye contact).

    I tried everything.. I approached random girls in public, girls at school/work, met girls through friends, online, etc.. nothing worked. I changed the way I looked/my style, but still nothing worked. I’ve asked out all types of girls: older, younger, skinny, fat, average, etc.. Still, nothing.

    As I got older, my looks improved somewhat. I stopped receiving the “ugly treatment.” I actually started to get phone numbers and a few girls checking me out. The problem is nothing ever went anywhere because the girls always played so many games, I ended up cutting off contact. I never got to the first date or to just hangout casually. Sometimes, I’d try to fight through the games, but eventually had to give up.

    Eventually, I decided to throw in the towel. I realized that getting a girlfriend (or even a date) just wasn’t in the cards for me. I’ve never held hands with or kissed a girl, and probably never will. I’ve accepted that I’ll probably be single the rest of my life. I’d be lying if I said it didn’t hurt sometimes, but it hurts much less than being rejected or having some girl string me along.

    People tell me “keep trying, you never know, the next one might be the one” but that type of thinking only works for so long.. eventually a person loses hope and drops out of the dating scene altogether. Dealing with rejection and game-playing wears a person down.

    So to answer your question, “Do people even want to date anymore?” the answer is yes. But some guys like me, who are on the outside looking in, never got a fair shot and gave up.

    I’m sure someone will tell me I missed something, or that I should experiment more with my look/approach, game, etc.. I’m sure I’ll be told something is wrong with me, just like I’ve been told my whole life.

    The truth is that the current dating system is imperfect. Some people will be left behind. Maybe it’s the laws of nature or maybe it’s just social conditioning. Whatever it is, I feel a lot better knowing where I stand in this whole chaotic mess. I stand here as another person who gave up.

  292. Jeff December 1, 2013 at 6:00 am #

    One more thing:

    “But without risk, there can be no excitement or real romance to anything.”

    I’ve taken risks all my life. I’ve probably taken more risks than the average male. After seeing none of those risks pay off, I’ve decided to stop taking risks.

    Maybe you, as a female, should start taking some risks instead of expecting men to carry the entire burden. After all, “without risk, there can be no excitement or real romance to anything.” Or does that road not go both ways?

  293. Mghow December 4, 2013 at 4:05 pm #

    @ Jeff

    Do you think you would have spent as much effort if not for society desperately pushing the link between a man’s worth and dating, marrying or being with women?

    Do you even know why you spent so much time pursing dates and women? Did you ever stop to think why? What do these women have to offer you?

    I believe a lot of that behaviour comes from programming, similar to the way that the vast majority of women will not pursue men. Society has drummed it into there heads that they just need to sit back and wait. I prefer it that way, it means I decide if I want company or not but it is still part of programming and most follow it blindly.

    I don’t think you missed something, or that anything is wrong or that you should waste time putting more effort in. Take a look at this and see what you are ‘missing’ out on http://tinyurl.com/om7gxvg and http://tinyurl.com/op6bmn5

    By the way, some of my own experiences have mirrored what’s posted in those links.

    As far as I am concerned, it’s just not worth the effort. Simply put, the chances of meeting a decent woman who hasn’t slept around, does not play games, does not suffer from princess entitlement syndrome and the ‘you pay for the date’ but I want ‘equal’ rights is so unlikely, there is probably more chances of finding a needle in a haystack. Of course, many women will tell you they aren’t like that or they are different but just watch their actions.

    @FeminineButNotFeminist

    You said…

    “Hmmm… in all my 28 years I don’t recall ever hearing a woman describe the man of her dreams as being an uncaring, selfish, emotionless sociopath.”

    This link is a good example of exactly that. http://tinyurl.com/om7gxvg

  294. Anny Lam December 15, 2013 at 3:14 pm #

    I like your topic. I think most people currently live in a fast-paced lifestyle, they don’t even think about dating or get a date. They are just too busy daily. That’s why online dating services have been booming out lately. Thousands of singles use such internet dating sites to find a date. So, I think people can use the modern way to find a date.

  295. John December 29, 2013 at 7:04 am #

    Well since most women nowadays are really nothing like the real good ladies that existed years ago certainly has a lot to do with it too, and many women were looking to meet men back then and have a relationship unlike now. The way that women have changed over the years especially since their attitude really stinks now does make it worse since they have become very cold when you try to start a conversation with them, and then they will walk away from you as if nothing is wrong.

  296. The Autistic Gamer January 14, 2014 at 7:45 am #

    @ Frustrated
    “We just want to have a basically happy (no nonsense, no drama, live in reality and work together as a team) relationship/marriage.”

    But that’s not what women like. They crave emotional drama and emotional engagement. They want the nonsense. This makes them happy. So, you don’t care about sex? You can have sex and drama or…. You cannot have happiness as you describe it with most women.

  297. John February 8, 2014 at 1:15 pm #

    The traditional role of marriage doesn’t exist anymore. Men & women would get married so that the woman & their children would inherit land & property rights from the man or vice versa & also to unite families/clans. On top of that men & women live in a busy society now. Women’s liberation & equal rights did not help either. Now it takes 2 incomes to support a family instead of 1. Women are brainwashed by the powers at be to think men are useless dumb dogs, hence women are now the heads of households instead of men. Not many true men want to be in this situation. Another interesting point is that the majority of women want a man who is metro-sexual (cute boy band type). This leads to a cycle of women who date only men who are professional pickup artists & only want 1 more notch in their belts. Women think these men are more manly because they are upfront & are not afraid to talk to them. This is the same type who will cheat on them because they will do the same thing w/ all other attractive women they meet. In poorer households families get more government handouts if they are not married & get paid more by the government to not have a job. The whole equal rights thing sounds good on paper but in practice it destroys the notion of family. Men are still expected to pay for dates & take the brunt of financial responsibilities. How is this equal? Marriage is the sacrament of matrimony created by religions. Now we have gay rights activists who want the gays being married. What do the religions say about this? If they want to share their property rights then only a legal union is needed not marriage. My advice to women is to ask guys on a date they are interested in, instead of waiting for them to ask. The seemingly insecure men (the ones who don’t ask you out) are likely to be more responsible, financially secure & treat you w/ more respect than the pickup artists. Another weird trend I’ve noticed is women preferring to be w/men who are losers who don’t have a good job or a job at all, are drug addicts & don’t have a driver’s license because of the multiple DUIs they have. I’m a single 35yo man. I’ve always wanted to be in a loving reciprocating relationship w/ a woman but have not been able to achieve this yet in my life. All the women I’ve dated seem to be afraid of commitment. One who I fell for hard professed her love to me but refused to commit to an intimate relationship. Others who i have been intimate w/ have told me how much they love me & how much they know I love them but still refuse to be in a relationship. I have learned to be happy alone, which is a good thing. One can’t be happy w/ someone else if they are not happy alone. The world’s over populated anyway. Good luck everyone!

  298. Red March 16, 2014 at 3:00 am #

    I *don’t*, because Christianity doesn’t have a good dating-structure. It’s a big competition of who can break whom’s heart. A lot of deception, and no “staying friends” afterward. It’s to make up for not having sex, just a different number to count.

  299. Red March 16, 2014 at 3:08 am #

    I personally think dating should be casual at first, Dutch, etc. There needs to be some time to keep your options open and get to know people. Then, I think there should be the guy taking the gal on nicer dates. It’s the awkward moment where you automatically want to date someone you have chemistry with, but if you don’t, you’ll end-up avoiding each other forever after. But then, that’s a perfect stranger, so you need the time to get to know them, before emotionally getting to know them.

  300. Red March 16, 2014 at 3:12 am #

    Men, if you’re casually-dating a woman, and she’s acting upset, it could be a few things:

    1. She’s PMS-ing
    2. You don’t like her, and she can tell
    3. You’re very platonic and she wants you to kiss her

  301. Leon S Kennedy March 20, 2014 at 1:25 pm #

    I’m a woman and I don’t want to date. I haven’t dated for years. When I dated all the men I dated cheated on me and the last guy started hitting me. So I just took the hint & walked away from them. I haven’t looked back since then. I don’t miss them at all. I mean, what’s to miss? The cheating or the hitting? Ha ha. Anyway, I’m not a lesbian if that’s what anyone is thinking, I’m straight. But I don’t miss men at all. They are a nightmare.

  302. ricosuaveguapo March 20, 2014 at 3:20 pm #

    Leon, hate to break it to you, but that says more about your mate-selection skills than men in general. Most men have never cheated nor hit their SOs, despite what Oprah would have you believe.

  303. galloper6 March 20, 2014 at 3:44 pm #

    Agree with Rico
    Face it, Players cheat and bad boys hit.

  304. theasdgamer March 20, 2014 at 8:50 pm #

    I’d just like to add to rico and galloper that Leon probably isn’t attracted to anyone except players and bad boys. No one else even shows up on her radar. The problem is that she’s broken.

  305. theasdgamer March 20, 2014 at 8:59 pm #

    @Red

    Yeah, #3 was my college gf 10 minutes into our first date about 40 years ago; we were studying in the library. She kept looking at me and I had no clue why. Eventually, I went over to ask her and she leaned towards me and parted her lips and I figured out what she wanted, lol. That was awfully fast for me. We had barely talked and already she wanted to lock lips. She was a doll, too. I wasn’t complaining, but sure was surprised. She was always into me even though she broke up with me. Kind of funny.

  306. iHowl March 21, 2014 at 5:53 am #

    It seems that nowadays guys are just options for girls. A few years ago, it was the opposite. The whole feminist movement kinda screwed up the alpha male complex cause now it’s acceptable for women to be dominant members if society. Perhaps we are at a point where gender roles are up in the air and the lines are way too blurred for many to know where to stand. So some guys will just say ‘fuck it’ and focus on themselves. Anyway, with overpopulation and all, maybe it’s a good thing

  307. s j April 29, 2014 at 12:57 am #

    This country is a ticking TIME BOMB of poorly paid workers. That’s by far the main reason dating, socialization and even hanging out are so horrible..

  308. John May 22, 2014 at 5:26 pm #

    It’s just simple cost vs. benefit. Women want to dominate your life, change everything about you, are never wrong, are never satisfied, and have a huge financial incentive to marry you then divorce you. They don’t even need a reason in no-fault states. And all for what? Sex with strings attached? Being manipulated with sex? Never getting to do what you want even 50% of the time? Spending time with women isn’t enjoyable and brings no benefits, only costs. Women, please explain what value you bring to men. And don’t ask me to tell me what value men provide, because you already know what it is.

  309. Hana June 1, 2014 at 9:16 pm #

    nitouken-“Dating should be a fun way to get to know each other…women think marriage should be on the table right away…”

    Rereading this, I noticed that comment and found myself wondering if that’s what most men really think. I was recently dating someone who told me, on the second date, that he was looking for a serious relationship, wanted to buy a house and settle down…well, I said I felt the same way, but I already knew that I couldn’t picture myself marrying him…so a while later I broke things off and he was upset…understandably, I think. But what else to do? If I really didn’t see it becoming serious, it would have been unfair for me to ‘date for fun,’ no?

  310. Bummer June 15, 2014 at 12:54 am #

    I stopped carting about dating because it’s all so expensive, exhausting, and pointless. After 9 relationships, I can’t point to anything about them that had been worthy of my time and effort.

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