The “quest for the Earl of Piety” is really just (my fanciful) name for Christian hypergamy, which in my opinion is the culprit of many Christian women remaining single unnecessarily long. As much as the manosphere likes to complain that even church girls are OMGSLUTS!111!!1!! (and I’m not denying that there aren’t a bunch of those out there), there are also a lot of Christian girls who (typically) have grown up in the church, taken all of the teachings about virginity and purity to heart, and have never fallen off the wagon, so to speak. They want to be wives, they want to be mothers, they want to serve God, they’re serious about ministry and having quiet times…and they can’t find a Christian man who’s good enough for them.
Case in point: Amy Seed of Boundless.
In a recent perusal of the bloggift that keeps on giving, I came across Seed’s article, “A Revealing Question for Dating.” In it Seed describes how she was in relationship exclusivity negotiations** with a presumably Christian man she was attracted to and had gone on several dates with. After those several dates, she still wasn’t sure that he was relationship-worthy, so she asked him, “What do you picture your household being like when you’re married?”. (**I know this sounds horribly clinical, but Boundless-style courtship resembles taking inventory for retail.)
Not realizing this was his Last Chance with this girl, Prospective Boyfriend failed the answer for not “sharing her vision.”
In the initial blog post, Seed did not describe what exactly this dude said to merit failure. However, she did specify that her future husband should not only share her vision, but also presently display the various characteristics necessary to fulfill that vision:
I know I desire a home filled first and foremost with the peace and love of God, followed closely by joy and laughter. I want it to be continually filled with the praises and worship of God. I want my home to be a haven for those who need rest, guidance or simply a friend. I want a marriage and home atmosphere where imperfection might be obvious, yet shines with evidence of the Holy Spirit at work.
In order to make this vision a reality, my potential spouse should be a spiritual leader and a man in pursuit of holiness and goodness. He should be someone who can lead children by example in the Lord and not just by authority. The right man will be humble and hospitable so people feel welcome in our home and not as though they’ll be judged for sharing their struggles.
Once we know what we desire in marriage, we should strive to date people who not only share our vision but display the characteristics needed to fulfill it.
Several readers thought that Seed was being too judgmental against the guy, so she provided a more complete answer in the comments:
Don’t get me wrong, he had a great answer. On the surface, we were looking for the same things. But on a deeper level, there were things missing. He believes in God, but he wasn’t at the same place spiritually where he was striving for closer communion with Him. I know those things can change, but we also had a lot of lifestyle differences. Asking him that question was kind of just a matter of confirming whether or not things that are very important to me are things that even mattered to him without me in the picture.
In answering my question, he didn’t mention anything about leading a family spiritually or God being central in the marriage. He might not have opposed those things, but they didn’t seem to be on his radar either. The fact that he didn’t hold faith in God and serving God as important as I do is something I foresaw leading to a lot of problems. I didn’t want to go into a relationship that was dependent on him working toward those things because of me instead of naturally wanting them himself. He was making a genuine effort, but that was just for me and while he was with me, not the rest of the time.
She later added:
He was intelligent and sweet, and he treated me well. He was someone I could joke with one second and then have a very real, serious conversation with the next. He asked about my boundaries and was extremely respectful of them. I figured that since he was making a genuine effort, was seeking marriage and was being intentional with me, I would give him a chance. I was hesitant for certain reasons, and he was very aware of those. But as time went on, I discovered the words didn’t quite match up with the actions as far as seeking God and pursuing a lifestyle pleasing to Him.
So what we have here is a generally good guy, considerate and respectful of Seed’s physical boundaries, who had good chemistry with Seed and who began dating her KNOWING that she was a Christian whose Christianity was a priority in her life, get shot down for not, in Seed’s opinion, sufficiently seeking God. I don’t want to knock someone for not dating someone where there was genuine incompatibility, and it does sound like Seed gave him a fair shake, but situations like this are a recipe for prolonged singleness for Christian women.
Not knowing more than what Seed wrote, I’m sorry this happened. The truth is that many Christian women, if they want to marry a man to whom they are attracted, may have to settle for a man who is not as “spiritually advanced” as she is. Just look at the male-female ratios in many churches, and look at the pickings. The ratio is not advantageous to women, especially the ones who aren’t drop-dead gorgeous, or at least reasonably cute and perky and have that future-youth-pastor-wife personality. But just because a man doesn’t say that his first intention is to spiritually lead his family and grow closer to God and provide a safe haven for joy and laughter or whatever DOESN’T mean that he’s not going to grow spiritually, or that he won’t grow with his wife’s encouragement.
In a later comment, Seed wrote that the guy admitted that he acted more spiritual around her but had a secret non-Christian side that he wasn’t apologetic over, and that is how she knew it would NEVER WORK. Maybe she’s right – but I’ve seen a lot of guys – guys who are good at heart – go through a wilder phase in their 20s and then come back to the fold after they got married. It’s why so often, writing off an otherwise attractive man for “insufficient spirituality” in the hopes of snagging the Earl of Piety is such a fool’s mission for the average Christian woman. There just aren’t enough of those guys for every girl who wants one. I mean, it’s one thing if the guy is adamant that he wants nothing to do with God or Christianity (or is actively professing a different faith), or has unequivocally stated that he has no intentions of ever exploring his spirituality, or that he genuinely believes he’s good with God right where he is and doesn’t have any interest in going any further, but that wasn’t the case here. Nor did Seed indicate that she had a specific calling to missions or other sacrificial calling that would make any union with a less spiritual man genuinely problematic. Again, not knowing the situation personally, I can’t say with confidence that Seed made the wrong choice…but it really does sound like this guy got the boot for a potentially fixable problem.
I get where Seed is coming from; I used to think the same way. I grew up in the church convinced that I had to have a “spiritual leader” for a husband, who wanted to attend small groups and Be Involved and lead in prayer and want to do family devotions and the whole kit-and-kaboodle. I was convinced that those were the ingredients of a good marriage, and if a guy wasn’t showing those attributes at, say, age 22, then he had effectively removed himself from the running. Well…quick guess as to how many of Earls of Piety I’ve come across in my life, and who have been single, and who were attracted to me, and to whom I was attracted back.
As I have gotten older (and remained single), especially in the months since my dad passed, I’ve begun reevaluating what I thought were the “essentials.” My dad, at the time he married my mom, was not a model Christian man. He had grown up in a Christian home but was caught up in a lot of typical young man behavior. He knew my mom was a more serious Christian than he was, and he was fortunately wise enough to recognize that if he married her, she would help him grow. And she did. My dad never became an Earl of Piety – it was not in his personality – but God became a priority in his life. In the later years of his life, he ended every day on his knees next to his bed in prayer. If my mom had judged my dad by Seed’s criteria, there would never have been a marriage. (Fortunately, my mom was CRAZY about my dad and also naive enough to believe that because they grew up in the same denomination, their marriage would be much like her parents’. Ha! She definitely experienced a rude awakening. But back then, young women didn’t enter dating armed with a 463-bullet point evangelical checklist full of things like “must enjoy discussing theology,” “only listen to Christian music,” and never telling a crude joke. (These are all things that Seed mentioned as must-haves for her happiness in a relationship.))
One other comment: Seed talks about how this guy didn’t “share her vision.” Her whole decision-making process centered around herself and her own ideas about marriage. I think it would be beneficial for single women to frame it rather as “can I share HIS vision?”. Because ultimately, that’s what you’re signing up for in a marriage, Christian or not. You’re signing up to be this guy’s first officer (to use an Athol-ism), or to be the COO to his CEO, however you want to put it – the point of you is not to set a goal and wait for him to meet it, but to look at his goals and see if you can be a part of them. Women who are waiting for a man who can meet their lofty standards are usually destined to wait a loooooongg time.
Haley's Halo 
Basically, this is what it boils down to:
She looks to be fairly attractive from her avatar photo. If she can’t find a good Christian man to marry then it’s pretty much because she’s being too picky. Attractive Christian women have their pick of the Christian single men in a church, although it is true that sometimes there are no attractive Christian men in some churches.
The guy she was dating she was obviously not attracted to. The list she mentions about his better qualities does not include any of the attractiveness traits that women tend to list when they want to be in a relationship with a man. Women will often bend over backwards for a man she is attracted to.
While I do think most young women have an inflated sense of their marriageability, they can still be up a creek. Most men have the wrong idea about what is attractive to women, but most women have the wrong idea about what is attractive to men, too. It is possible for both genders to be screwed. My sense of my own value has (predictably) jumped quite a bit since taking the pill, but it’s led me to look around at the women in my congregation and shake my head in pity.
What I mean is: obedient religious betas like me certainly take our lumps, make no mistake. Many remain as they are, or lose their faith and leave the church.
But…if they wake up…fix themselves, get a sense of confidence…then they realize what they are. And they look back at the “unrighteous alphas” who loomed large in their memories but are now working minimum wage, and realize they weren’t anything special.
They realize that they fit the description the women have been getting since they were 12, and that they’re in rare supply.
Understand that this is not a “haha, look who’s cool now” sentiment. It would have been better for everyone if these guys had been able to attract the girl they were crushing on at age 22 or whatever. And not all of these guys manage to pull themselves together.
But if they persist through their modern hell, and make it, then they turn out OK. All’s well that ends well.
But what of their female peers?
It sucks to be a commodity at the beginning, but it is perhaps worse to be a commodity at the end.
I don’t know what I’m driving at. It is not “Man up and marry those sluts,” nor is it, “Man up and marry those spiritual girls you’re not attracted to.”
Rather, it’s a condemnation of the Gloria Steinems and Susan Walsh’s of the world (Susan less so) for giving women bad advice. All very well to push “finding yourself” and “expanding your horizons” if you’re a Steinem knockout or happily married yourself. But leading others astray…judgment isn’t appointed to us, but if it were to me…millstones around their necks, all of them.
I think the reality is that most men have MUCH, MUCH more realistic expectations for what their families will actually look like.
Most families ARE NOT always happy and full of laughter. Men realize this. Women do not.
Most families don’t always have time to pray together. Men realize this. Women do not.
Most families don’t always have time to read Bible stories to their kids. Men realize this. Women do not.
Most families may be late to church on Sunday and unable to take a summer mission trip to a 10/40 Window country. Men realize this. Women do not.
The reality is that Christian men are far more realistic about marriage and children than Christian women ever will be. They realize that it will be more sacrifices than entitlements. They realize that things will slow down and they’ll do less stuff.
Men understand that they will have to compromise on their choice of mate. Women do not.
That is why Ms. Seed will be Ms. Seed for quite a while into the future.
ar10308:
Depending on how loudly the clock ticks within her, hypergamy will ensure that she will not compromise as much as men will do.
I’m still stumped with where all these Christian women looking for a spiritual mate were when I was in my twenties. I met exactly two Christian women when I was in my early twenties that gave me the time of day. One just wanted to hang around me to be her bodyguard and protector (we were both students at a good law school that happened to be in a bad neighborhood). But in the end she didn’t want any sort of relationship with me or any other guy. The other woman, who really was nice and sweet and would have made a great wife, unfortunately had me on the strike-off list pretty quickly because she was a devout Roman Catholic and I was a a Protestant. To her credit, she made that clear early on in a nice way and we stayed friends. Other than that, it was a wasteland, even though I was going to a large evangelical church at the time and I assume would have been considered a good catch.
So I would intermittently go out with nominally Christian women, or non-Christian women, who actually did pay attention to me, but where it always happened, somewhere between the third and fifth date (but also earlier), that the inquiry became “what, you don’t want to sleep with me, what’s wrong with you,” and then the relationship ended. Frankly, that just instantly turned me off, as well as the woman thinking I was weird or gay. Eventually I got disgusted with the whole dating scene and went through a period of several years where I went out with virtually no one.
Eventually I met the woman who became my wife (through work, not any church involvement or religious qualification), and we’ve been happily married for almost 30 years now. So it turned out ok. But sometimes I do wonder, where were all those great Christian women desiring mates that I always read about? It’s like James Thurber’s Unicorn, a “mythical beast.”
Silly people, this is what women want these days:
http://www.vdare.com/articles/americas-sociopath-fetish-chicks-dig-chechens-and-other-killers
Personally, I can’t understand how any woman can see this type of article and not be humiliated to be associated with her gender. You know, it only takes few percent of women to be this way to throw off the balance of male-female relationships.
Unfortunately, there are not enough cute, violent men to satisfy all the women who desire one.
Oh well. At least I am avoiding a terrible divorce after my Christian wife leaves me to bang some criminal and takes all my money. So there’s that.
Wow, that’s a Christian s*it test if I ever heard one. It’s at least a very overt one, at least. She’s asking to be drawn into the guy’s world as much as possible. Sadly, this guy failed. A red pill guy could have answered in much more interesting ways to keep her attraction, but sadly, this guy sounds like he was too beta too recognize.
Like many single Christian women, she’s immature. In addition, she’s acting very masculine in this relationship. She thinks she knows what she wants, but she really doesn’t.
Toz,
I think the problem is that this woman has substituted tingles for what Godly vision of marriage actually is. Read her vision of marriage, it is pure Hamster. She is putting the tingles before anything else. She wants some man to give her this perfect vision of a marriage that perfectly lines up with hers as if she is the leader.
She has forgotten that she was made for man, not man made for her.
‘I think it would be beneficial for single women to frame it rather as “can I share HIS vision?”. Because ultimately, that’s what you’re signing up for in a marriage, Christian or not.’
I think this is a huge issue in that Christian women are never told this. The man isn’t supposed to follow her vision, but she is to follow his. I bet if pastor’s say this sort of thing the lady’s jaws would totally drop. It just seems like a foreign concept to them.
I read this immediately after reading a post entitled “It Matters Whom You Marry”: http://thechristianpundit.org/2012/08/15/it/
An interesting contrast.
Instead of giving young Christians idealized church world advice, they should get real world advice. They are being told to look for and develop the wrong qualities.
I’m curious how Haley’s parents’ marriage was different from that of her grandparents.
I haven’t looked at all the comments on the Boundless article, but it seems like Amy Seed is just trying to rationalize her lack of interest in this guy. Because if she found him very attractive, or very compatible, she would be more sorry to let him go. Instead she writes this: “I figured that since he was making a genuine effort, was seeking marriage and was being intentional with me, I would give him a chance. I was hesitant for certain reasons, and he was very aware of those.” It sounds like she wasn’t very interested in him even before she found out about the weaknesses in his faith.
This doesn’t mean that she rejected him for the wrong reasons; more that (like a lot of people), she finds it hard to explain why she isn’t attracted to someone who looks good on paper. I also agree that she may find it hard to find someone who meets her checklist of qualities for a Christian husband. Probably, as she matures, she will find someone who is good match in the most important ways, and throw out some of the less important items on the list (like “only listens to Christian music!”)
“I think this is a huge issue in that Christian women are never told this. The man isn’t supposed to follow her vision, but she is to follow his. I bet if pastors say this sort of thing the lady’s jaws would totally drop. It just seems like a foreign concept to them.”
I have to disagree that “Christian women are never told this” – certainly Candace Watters, co-founder of Boundless, has made this view clear in the past. Based on the Boundless philosophy, I’m a bit surprised that one of the editors didn’t take Amy to task.
If only this guy had read more of Boundless then he would have realized the only thing that matters in making yourself more attractive is loving Jesus more. He neglected the inner beauty!
What was this guy’s vision? To have a home not happy, closed off to people, be detached from the family, filled with praises and worship to Allah? I would’ve responded to her vision question with “…and that’s my vision. You on board with it or not? Alright, later.”
@ Kevin
Incorrect.
If loving Jesus was attractive then Christian women and secular women would be snatching up devout Christian men like hot cakes because they would be attracted to them. This is veritably false.
I would suggest reading this to find out what is actually attractive to women:
The fruit born of following Jesus may be attractive, but that has been a big debate in the manosphere.
“As I have gotten older (and remained single), especially in the months since my dad passed, I’ve begun reevaluating what I thought were the “essentials.””
This might be one of the most important things you’ve written here, at least for yourself.
@ Deep Strength
That’s Boundless’ advice to single men in a nutshell. One reason so many Christian men are terrible in improving their DMV and even understanding it as a whole. You need a sarcasm detector.
@ Kevin
I disagree. There’s enough trolls and feminists commenting in the manosphere that the sarcasm is not necessarily clear cut.
I’m going to call bull$&!# on this. I was an evangelical for years and I saw many women hide behind “I kissed Dating Goodbye” to say God told them not to date and then move in with their secular (but good) Alpha boyfriend to cohabitate and probably do all kinds of things that would make the pudgy youth pastor blush. This sounds like a lot of the same stuff I heard then.
It’s hard for men or women to find a good mate who shares their spiritual values, as we live in a secular country. However, you can find someone who is still a good match. I was in a great relationship with an Atheist for two years and she was very supportive when I became Catholic. She knew it was important and the things that made me become more spiritual were many of the attractive qualities. Likewise, her non-belief was tied to some great values.
As well, the Catholics don’t have many young adults in my state but I do meet good, financially secure men at Mass and Divine Liturgy. They just happen to be rather beta on the scale, as most men are. Yet, I still hear women whine, “I can’t find a good guy at Church!” Okay, you mean, “I can’t find my type at Church.” That’s okay too, but let’s just be honest here.
Let us just level with people: Christians want the same thingsin a mate that everyone else do. Stop telling young people about how all these virtues to cultivate will attract a mate, not in this world.
BOTTOM LINE: Men want Raquel, Women want Fonzie.
I’m going to call bull$&!# on this. I was an evangelical for years and I saw many women hide behind “I kissed Dating Goodbye” to say God told them not to date and then move in with their secular (but good) Alpha boyfriend
Bad memories…
Too often such a woman holds out for an outrageous hyper-spiritual checklist… not realizing that a man who has to work a regular job for a living, cannot possibly live up to all that — unless he has a genetic mutation that eliminates the need for sleep. (And of course she, herself, cannot live up to her list, either.)
And then…. frustrated that none of the solid marriageable men she knows, can match the hyper-spiritual checklist, she eventually gives up on the list totally, and falls off the wagon… into the arms and the bed of a lawless, godless Alpha —
“…I smiled, pulled her in close and planted a big one on her. In the church foyer. During a missions conference. She rewarded my masculine confidence two nights later by giving me the virginity she had been saving for her future husband….”
http://www.returnofkings.com/9782/why-christian-men-dont-deserve-virgins
This isn’t unique. There are guys who *specialize* in deflowering good Christian virgin girls for sport. They often grew up in or around church, know the Bible backwards and forwards, and can play the Christian act pretty well if it suits their purposes. And if a girl is lonely and frustrated, she’s very vulnerable to these guys.
If the girls could just dial down the stupid lists *a little bit*, into the realm where actual Christian men exist, they could be happily married and none of this nonsense would be going on.
Why not the churches give family formation a priority?
Instead of promoting the Holy Wuz and Holy Frump, we help the young members find a better match by BEING a better match.
I think the anti-intellectual bias in most churches plays a part in distorting women’s view of what is spiritual. Men are going to be more interested in knowledge of God and not emotional highs. The guy in the story would have probably benefited from philosophical apologetics but that isn’t considered proper “communion” (even when for men it causes greater worship).
But as other comments pointed out, lack of awareness of attraction vectors and assuming men have to come fully assembled (being raised on television and movies doesn’t help in this regard) are holding Christian women back from growing in wisdom.
Its a great loss when our society dumped the previous social networks that worked to match up men with potential to sweet demure girls, now both are lost and feel ignored.
seriouslyplease–
Susan Walsh sometimes hits on truths, but her whole website is premised on the idea that you can have multiple premarital sex partners but still marry well. Her whole strategy falls apart if the girl can’t find “the one” before her N gets too big for an upper-middle class man with options.
y81–
My mom’s parents were a couple who did everything together – my grandfather didn’t have male friends, per se. They mainly associated with other church couples. My parents didn’t have that kind of marriage.
Hana–
It definitely sounds like Prospective Boyf did not make her tingle hard enough. He unfortunately embodied the lethal combination of being too respectful AND too worldly.
Lucie–
This guy wasn’t Christian enough, so there was no need to take Seed to task. His lack of sufficient Christianity made the other points moot.
Seth–
I think to a large extent that anti-intellectual bias in contemporary churches is a cultural response to the perceived strict, legalistic Christianity of the past. There’s not a lot of doctrine in contemporary evangelical churches anymore; most sermons are Christianized life improvement seminars. People don’t want to come to church to feel bad, they don’t want to feel like they’ve gone back to school for a lecture, they come to church because they want to feel hopeful about something and find community/acceptance. So most churches avoid a lot of sophisticated doctrine in sermons so they don’t turn off Joe Average. Also, many churches are more interested in “doing” than “knowing” – they are more interested in the practical applications of Christianity than the philosophical underpinnings. People need practical help for themselves and their families NOW – they don’t need to be able to articulate whether or not Melchizedek was the second person of the trinity to do that.
Also, it’s worth keeping in mind that if you’re reading my blog, you are most likely of high intelligence – probably at least 1 standard deviation above the mean. (Not bragging, just acknowledging where my reader base comes from.) Consequently, you are going to be more interested in doctrine and more abstract, philosophical aspects of Christianity. In contrast, the average church isn’t so niche. Preaching a sermon for an IQ 125 crowd is going to alienate the IQ 100 people.
In related news, Boundless has a current blog post by Suzanne Hadley Gosselin discussing the recent “her.meneutics” Christianity Today blog post by a female author promoting delaying marriage. (It was commented on well by Sunshine Mary here. Predictably, a few male commenters are advocating traditional gender roles, and the comments section is blowing up with Christo-feminists attacking them and defending the delay of marriage.
I wonder what Glenn “women want to marry and have daddies for their babies” Stanton thinks of all these women promoting the delay of marriage? Probably that some evil man put them up to it.
Jesus’s conduct rules to be come a Christian are nowhere near the criteria of Miss Seed or others like her in Christianity. Purina stocks are doing well I heard. ;)
Hermes–
LOL, in the most recent comments, one of the female commenters actually stated that most women are educated, smart, and insightful.
The Tingle Imperative rules over all.
She was shopping for a flimsy justification to dump him. It was over before it began.
I’ve known dozens of Christian women who have wasted the best of their youth, innocence, and years on really bad men.
That was his problem – he needed to either be a whole lot better, or a whole lot worse.
Hot or cold, otherwise she will spit you out of her mouth.
one of the female commenters actually stated that most women are educated, smart, and insightful
I gotta see this.
I haven’t read Boundless in a long, long time and the solipsism is murdering me.
Part of the problem with the Boundless comment section is that it is dominated by a minority of young, intelligent, soon-to-be-but-not-actually-well-educated and young commenters. In other words, a bunch of smart college kids blasting their feelings at each other.
…
Actually, there are some good comments too:
The whole system is set up assuming no one’s wanting to get married or start a family before 30 or so. And I totally bought into it. It didn’t feel like there were other options at the time…at 16 there was all the pressure to get good grades so you can get scholarships for college, never once entered my head then that I should be thinking about how my decisions at 16-18 would affect my marriage and family life later.
That’s why we’re here, kids.
I used to read Boundless for real world advice, being a serious young Christian man wanting a wife. Now I read Boundless on a regular basis just for amusement. When I saw the post by Seed I couldn’t stop laughing. Makes me glad I gave up finding a “Christian” girl in the “Churchian” church. Excellent fisking Haley!
I used to read Boundless for real world advice, being a serious young Christian man wanting a wife.
Me too. I still think there is some good to be found there, by the way; I don’t *only* LOLOL at it. The message that marriage is good, and something to be striven for beyond just waiting for it to “happen”, is worthwhile. That’s not much, but it’s more than mainstream culture offers.
Marriage is a very good thing, perhaps the greatest that a man and a woman can aspire to. But men are always being told to lower their sights and marry the slut … or the frump … depending on who’s doing the shaming. Women are being told to lower their sights as well, but do they take that to heart? Tingle rules all as Seed eloquently demonstrates so it ain’t happening. Seed wants that tingle, that’s why she invited that guy onward without her. Good luck with the cats.
The man isn’t supposed to follow her vision, but she is to follow his.
Unheard of, nowadays. The wimminzfolk believe they are the spiritual and moral superiors. In such an environment, i saw normal young christian men enroll in bible college when they wanted to get married, becuase they knew it improved their credit with these types of chur h girls. Which just reflects the feminine imperative driving the agenda.
Women also view piety and spirituality differently to men. In their twenties, men are expected to be leaders, authorities and capable of inspiring? Asking quite a lot. In such circumstances, the man would be entitled to ask what she brings to the table, besides sass, attitude and a 463 bullet point list of questions he must answer ‘correctly’.
Ms Seeds desire for a perpetually happy and fulfilling homelife is an immature fantasy that will fuel unhappiness once the reality of running a house becomes apparent.
Men are usually undiscipline, arrogant, and cocky in their youth. Model behavior for godly attributes they usually aren’t.
My grandfather wasn’t, my dad wasn’t, I wasn’t, my brother wasn’t…in our youth.
However we each got older and that undisciplined, arrogant, cocky attitude translated into a fire that led us each to God in our own way. Women helped along the way…but in the end it is up to the man to make the decision.
A Christian man’s life is a journey…you’ll never meet him at his best…but you will enjoy the path we take to get there.
Part of the reason for this Earl of Piety business is the teachings girls are exposed to in high school/college. We’re told we SHOULD be looking for that spiritual leader, that guy who will have devotions with us while we’re dating, who will be more spiritual than us, who has all his spiritual ducks in a row. We hear things along the lines of “you want to marry a guy who loves God more than he loves you”. We’re also given to understand that if we aren’t looking for a guy with those traits we’re less godly, and we’ll end up with an unhappy life/marriage. Problem is, the guys who talks most loudly about spiritual things is probably not all that godly–the truly godly guy is quite possibly the one in the background, going diligently about his business.
The one thing which essentially de-toxed me from the Earl of Piety mindset was going to graduate school and getting involved in a non-denominational Bible study group. I a) got a much more realistic view of my own godliness and b) got to see guys who clearly loved God, yet didn’t have the standards on my “good, godly guy” checklist (re drinking, mild language, media choices, pristine doctrine). After a lot of cognitive dissonance, I decided the guys were ok, and my standards were unrealistic. I also realized these flesh-and-blood human guys serving God in the real world were much more interesting than my 1D Earl of Piety.
it seems like Amy Seed is just trying to rationalize her lack of interest in this guy.
Things can get a bit reductionist around here. A lot of these Christian girls genuinely want a guy where they can go off and have a spiritual “high” together.
There is a bit of an overemphasis on “attraction” at times on PUA influence blogs. What is called “comfort” is also really important: things like common interests etc. Women are not dogs in heat that mate with the first cocky confident guy they meet.
There also seems to be a bunch of paranoia about how most church girls are going off and secretly (or not so secretly) having sex with hot alphas while the betas and omegas sit in the pews beside them in grinding celibacy. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but not as much as you’d think, and I’m also pretty sure that any moderately observant person could pick out the girls who are at risk of doing that at a quick glance.
Girls aren’t walking tingles.
The real problem is hypergamy/pickiness, which embraces a lot more than just attraction, where a lot of more educated Christians don’t end up settling down with someone until their 30s.
On the one hand, it’s easy to give Seed a hard time about this and claim she was being too picky. Some commenter on another Christian manosphere blog said recently, “one thing girls need to do is adjust their spirituality requirements down just a little bit. When I first met my wife, I wasn’t some holy roller, praying without ceasing type.” I know in my own case, I was much more involved in church and doing many more “spiritual-leader”-esque type things when I was dating a devout Christian girl. And it wasn’t because I was taking direction from her; more like being around her just inspired me to do them.
On the other hand, I do feel for Seed, because it’s not just that this guy failed for being a devout-but-not-devout-ENOUGH Christian, which does happen. If that had been the case, we could easily say she should have given him more of a chance. Instead, he revealed he had this entire non-Christian side of his life that he lived when not around her. She doesn’t give details about what this entailed (strip clubs? Somehow I doubt it was that serious. Wouldn’t surprise me if these Boundless intern types would reject someone for moderate drinking) but one can’t blame her for not wanting to move forward into marriage with a guy who apparently had no intention of centering his home and family life around God.
Ten bucks says this guy drank and swore when not in her presence. Five bucks for smoking. Five bucks for having guys’ poker nights on occasion.
Might as well jump in with my 2 cents. A good discussion – I’m kind of on the same page as Haley w/r/t rethinking the essentials as I get older. Also on the same page as Sampson in that I don’t really agree with either Boundless or Manosphere but continue to read them both.
Here is something that I haven’t seen addressed yet – as a female I know that the earl of piety is not in my cards as I am hardly the earl-ess of piety myself, but still want to lead a life in obedience. BUT …. un-pious guys have a very lackadaisical attitude towards premarital sex. So if you are trying to be celibate or re-celibate before marriage, and you date a non-pious guy, to quote the internet meme, you’re going to have a bad time!
Here are some actual things that my less-than-saintly-pious ex christian boyfriends have said to me: “God told me you would meet my sexual needs”, “Lets say we’re engaged, then you won’t feel guilty all the time”, “Other guys won’t care that you slept with me”, “I just need you to do this for me”, “If you don’t, I will go look at porn and I know you don’t like that so…”, “I just can’t help myself”, “You’re not as $lutty as all the other girls”, “If you don’t want to have sex with me, then why are we dating”, “Just stop beating yourself up” etc
So what every relationship ends up being is me schizophrenically doing things and feeling guilty, or not doing things and feeling guilty. I confess that I’m not desperate enough to date a divorced dad yet but the day may come.
Just sayin, is all. Commence butthurt.
“Ten bucks says this guy drank”
Wow, imagine if she met a guy who actually produced the wine for a buddy’s wedding.
Also on the same page as Sampson in that I don’t really agree with either Boundless or Manosphere but continue to read them both.
(Although to be diplomatic, I might say that I agree with both of them in parts while disagreeing in others.)
Here are some actual things that my less-than-saintly-pious ex christian boyfriends have said to me:
“Christian ex-boyfriends” or “ex-Christian boyfriends”?
Not a bad guess. Drinking and swearing are more common than smoking, which nowadays makes one a veritable pariah. But would he have been willing to give up the presumed drinking and smoking for Seed? She doesn’t say. Asking a guy to become a teetotaler is a bit much, but we can’t blame her for the swearing thing, since the Bible directly says not to use foul language (Colossians 3:8.)
I try not to use profanity and would view a girl’s desire for me to abstain from it as a positive encouragement, but I honestly think if a girl told me she wanted me to give up alcohol entirely that would be a deal breaker. At least if it was the beginning of a relationship and I wasn’t already in love with her.
Samson, what happened to your blog?
Somewhat off topic. Incidently there is this meme going around that most churchgoing women are actually on the carousel.
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/01/18/the-feminine-imperative-revisited/#comment-68619
I have to say, I am totally unconvinced.
1. Too many friends have married virgins.
2. From personal experience, churchgoing and non-churchgoing women are very different in a whole host of ways.
3. Female friends tell me that the girls aren’t out there sleeping around.
Not that it never happens, but mostly this is paranoia.
Incidently there is this meme going around that most churchgoing women are actually on the carousel…
I have to say, I am totally unconvinced.
Right – I completely agree, for the same reasons as you. This meme is one of the biggest reasons I decided the “Christian” “manosphere” was full of unbalanced individuals.
Asking a guy to become a teetotaler is a bit much
What, really?
Samson, what happened to your blog?
As hinted above, I pulled a Bardamu and decided a lot of the older content didn’t reflect who I am anymore, since I’ve pulled away from the “manosphere” in favour of a more traditionally Christian outlook.
I agree with both of you. That notorious story from returnofkings.com that’s been going around is either false, greatly embellished, a one-in-a-million occurence that is not representative of what’s going on in evangelical churches, or involves a girl in a megachurch where there’s a lot of anonymity and people can exist on the fringes and not be serious about their faith. It doesn’t describe a typical evangelical girl.
Incidentally, I find Dalrock virtually unreadable. Like Mencius Moldbug, he’s developed this idiosyncratic, self-referential system of thought that requires you to cut through several layers to decipher what he’s actually saying.
Maybe it’s just my own social circles, but I’ve had the impression for a while that belief in complete abstinence from alcohol is, even among evangelicals, going the way of the dodo. About the only way I could see it is if she had a personal or strong family history of alcoholism, and just didn’t want to be around that. Not that I need alcohol, but if a girl came right out at the very beginning of a relationship and said “I don’t believe in even moderate drinking and can’t be with someone who drinks at all,” I’d think we just weren’t terribly compatible.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who was a bit disturbed by the “Manosphere”. I believe it makes some good points, and I applaud its efforts to foster male confidence and leadership. However, having lived in both patriarchal and modern/feminist circles, I have seen first-hand that it is harmful and counterproductive it is to build up one sex by tearing down the other.
I have great news. Amy Seed already has another “boyfriend.” I know this is a huge relief to all of us as we were all worried she would have to walk the lonely road of singleness for much of her time here on earth.
Thanks for your balanced comments The Man Who Was . . . and Sampson J
I was starting to get really discouraged reading the comments on this blog. women are here represented as little more than automations or animals at the mercy of instinct and hormones. its pretty dehumanising, and i am sad that very few people seem to call such commentators out on this. I hate the way the word tingle and hypergamy are thrown around and foolishly used to justify much more than they can. I was initially quite fond of reading through these blogs, but lately this red pill or blue pill stuff is getting a bit too hectic.
i’m christian, 24, single, dating, and a virgin. all of my christian friends who are female are virgins. amazing isn’t it? yes we want men who are christian and who can lead a christian family, but we do recognise that men are also still maturing in their faith as we are, and we’re pretty willing to cut them a lot of slack in this department. REALLY. still, leadership is important because we are called to submit, and its hard to submit to someone whose opinion is less thought out than your own. are we kidding ourselves and thinking more highly of our intelligence than we ought? sometimes, yes. but God reveals our faults to us as well and convicts us of them… and the bible is an excellent point of reference on matters of morality and doctrine and faith and whatnot.
we’d like you to have a job, or at least be studying to eventually have a job because when we have children (God willing) we’re going to be depending on your solely for a while.
It’d be very helpful if we are attracted to you. As someone said earlier in this comment thread, being a christian doesn’t make you attractive, but living out a mature Christian life does. but attraction does require more than that, a christian life well lived is a good base, a persons personality is the seasoning that makes them right for you. so corny, but it kinda works yes?
I meant to say, women here are *sometimes* represented as …
This is an excellent post and the discussion that it has generated is incredibly insightful.
Here is an article on Forbes that I think is related to and extends the current discussion:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larissafaw/2012/12/05/why-are-so-many-professional-millennial-women-unable-to-find-dateable-men/
I stopped hanging around other single Christians primarily for the reasons stated in Haley’s original post. I don’t want to have to constantly feel compared to some mythical person that does not and will not ever exist. and I certainly don’t want to waste my time hanging around girls who think that the Earl Piety is going to fly into their lives on a winged horse at any moment.
It’s one to have standards, but when standards become expectations that are so rigorous that they become impossible to fulfill then the game has become a competition in which no one wins. And this is what pushed me to stop caring and when I started doing that it didn’t take long for me to see that I was much happier and fulfilled with myself, knowing that I was no longer in competition.
I have no plans to date or enter into a relationship or to get married. And I declare that knowing full well that I will live the rest of my life single and I’m OK with that. And when people try to change my mind I politely ask them to stop because I’ve made my decision and I understand the moral, ethical and spiritual consequences.
Amy Seed’s biggest problem is in the back of her mind the Christian version of the Cinderella story is still playing and it will continue to play until Seed burns out and gives up, gets married with secret regrets or realizes that expectations, standards and checklists only serve to objectify others rather than to unlock who they really are as people.
As Haley says some women are going to wait a long time for the Earl to show up on the winged horse. What’s really painful is that more and more single Christian guys that I know are withdrawing from the game, system, competition, whatever it is and are focusing on becoming the best individuals possible. Dating, relationships, marriage and family is no longer a concern or a worry for them and the next time I hear a single female lament that all “the good men are taken” I’m going to politely inform them that no, they’re aren’t taken, they just shifted focus and that focus doesn’t include a future partner.
If the Earl of Piety is out there then I won’t ever know because I stopped caring and if the Countess of Piety is out there then I wish her the best, but I stopped looking for her a long time ago.
Blarg, christian music? Really? I can’t stand some of that insipid stuff. I barely stand some of today’s pop music.
Seriously though, I she also demonstrates a general misunderstanding girls seem to have about guys. To sum up all the old jokes: for women, it seems like nothing’s real until they talk about it. For men: nothing’s real until you’re DOING something about it. Thus, it’s not just men’s perpetual horniness, but a real need to express the desire we have for our beloved in a physical way. Likewise, fathers might not talk to their children as much as mom, but they really do like DOING things for their children. Thus, when it comes to say… spirituality, men are probably going to be less inclined to talk about it, but much more inclined to do something about it. We might, but not always, want to talk about theology and stuff, but I’d lay dollars to donuts that on average, men would far rather be acting out theology (working the soup kitchen, fixing things for the needy, etc). Some of Seed’s checklist sounds less like she’s looking for a man, and more for just a taller, muscular woman.
Yeah, how can she not see the paradox that she wants her husband-to-be to lead the household spiritually… following HER list. “I want you to boss me around. … No you’re not doing it right.”
Speak for yourself as it depends on where you go. My denomination usually alternates between life application one sunday, then doctrine examinations the next.
It is also a factor of a mixed audience. Since you could have any number of visitors/new christians in the audience, they often “water down” the lesson to ‘beginner levels’.
I read boundless back before it was cool. When the internet was just a fleet of carrier pigeons we used to send messages back and forth. We only had pictures back then as any kind of video would kill your 56k modem. Kids these days… *shakes cane*
I remember hearing some of those lessons when we had mix group devotionals. Actually… funny story time:
So, the “generation” (not really, but we do sort of think of them like that) before mine, the high school/college group… it’s rather an interesting look at how they ALL pretty much married within the group, pairing off with only a few outliers.
Then there was… my “generation”. Pretty close to the same gender ratio (maybe girls were outnumbering guys just a little) and… I believe one, maybe two or three couples came out of that group. EVERY other girl and guy there ended up bringing in and marrying an outside partner (of those that did marry). Of course don’t misunderstand me, each of these men & women have all turned out to be very find adults and everyone’s raising great families nowadays. Just… seems odd that so many had to go “shopping outside”, ya know? And don’t get me wrong, there were some MIGHTY FINE gals in that group so the selection was there for at least one side of that equation.
Not sure what my point was, just… came to mind.
Awwwww, you want to go out sometime? It’ll just be for fun, no sex or marriage in sight. (though we have to be careful, we might give Haley the idea to start a “red pill christian dating” site)
For men: nothing’s real until you’re DOING something about it. Thus, it’s not just men’s perpetual horniness, but a real need to express the desire we have for our beloved in a physical way. Likewise, fathers might not talk to their children as much as mom, but they really do like DOING things for their children. Thus, when it comes to say… spirituality, men are probably going to be less inclined to talk about it, but much more inclined to do something about it. We might, but not always, want to talk about theology and stuff, but I’d lay dollars to donuts that on average, men would far rather be acting out theology (working the soup kitchen, fixing things for the needy, etc). Some of Seed’s checklist sounds less like she’s looking for a man, and more for just a taller, muscular woman.
Very true.
@Herm:
Maybe it’s just my own social circles, but I’ve had the impression for a while that belief in complete abstinence from alcohol is, even among evangelicals, going the way of the dodo.
Well, if true, I can’t see this as a really good thing. Not that I think strict abstinence is mandatory (I have never figured out how to square this with the fact that Jesus drank wine…), but I do think abstinence is, in general, a good habit (another point in favour of the Mormons), and any putative trend *away* from it is part and parcel of the trend *towards* post-modern liberalism.
On reflection, I can see that I wrote without thinking, in the sense that of course you’re not going to immediately alter a lifestyle habit for a girl you hardly know. I’m just a bit surprised to see such pro-alcohol comments. I hardly ever drink, and that’s not even because of religious sentiments as much as I plain don’t like it. I’m pretty sure my non-Christian buddy thinks it’s funny and kind of weird that I never have any beer on hand when he comes over.
Incidentally, I find Dalrock virtually unreadable.
I want to preface this by saying that I believe Dalrock’s heart is mostly in the right place, and he probably has done more good than bad, and I wish him no harm, but I too find his style unreadable and in certain ways irksome.
@someone:
Thanks for your balanced comments The Man Who Was . . . and Sampson J
I must say – and please don’t take this as a hurtful criticism – I have never figured out why everyone thinks my name contains a “P”. Everyone has made this mistake at least once – Lawrence Auster, Bruce Charlton, Laura Wood…!
I was starting to get really discouraged reading the comments on this blog. women are here represented as little more than automations or animals at the mercy of instinct and hormones. its pretty dehumanising,
It is dehumanizing, and that is part of what I mean when I say that I have gotten out of the habit of reading these blogs once I saw what it was doing to me. No matter how much “truth” there is on these sites – and there is much – when you begin to notice your view on everyday matters becoming warped and discoloured, it’s time to take a step back and re-evaluate whether your worldview is being shaped in a healthy way, or not.
It sounds extremely one-sided. What about his happiness in all of this? Not to jump on the MRA bandwagon, but her qualifications for a man sound extremely one-sided and selfish, which I’m pretty sure isn’t Godly. And it’s not a good way to have a successful relationship, either – which are very much give and take.
Also, on her check list, you said:
That is spot on. She isn’t supposed to be the leader of her home, spiritual or otherwise, unless he is absent. It’s his job to be the priest of his home. She should be looking for a man that is spiritually confident enough to accomplish that goal, and make sure their family stays on the right path.
And just because he isn’t more or equally spiritual to you (what does that even mean, and how do you measure that? You know more Bible Verses and have seen ‘Crowder’ live?) doesn’t mean he’s worth tossing. Always be aware that you will be the only one to have his ear at bedside – his undivided attention. That’s a powerful thing.
Anyway, just my thoughts. Adding your blog to the reader – keep it up!
Hermes–
Incidentally, I find Dalrock virtually unreadable. Like Mencius Moldbug, he’s developed this idiosyncratic, self-referential system of thought that requires you to cut through several layers to decipher what he’s actually saying.
I always thought the main thrust of Dalrock’s blog was pretty simple: “Don’t man up and marry those sluts! Watch them shrivel up and die surrounded by cats! HAHAHAHAHAHA! DUMB SLUTS!!!!!”
All I can say about the queen-it will have to be a God thing for her to find this guy she seeks. He doesnt exist, but rather grows into those roles. God does not provide the revelation she wants him to have UNTIL he is actually head of the home.
He was was generous to stick around as long as he did.
I suggest telling a silly “Christian” tart like this, when she tries to test a man, that if she is to marry him, she will have to honor and obey him, and take her place as his wife at his side.
I’m just an atheist … but if she wants to be a Christian, she needs to accept the entire package.
For what it’s worth, she’s dating someone new now. Whirlwind romance, apparently–two weeks of intense talking lead to them declaring their relationship official. Here’s hoping this relationship has better luck.
It’s been my experience that Christian women aren’t looking for any pre-existing earls of peity, rather they desperately want the man they are dating to become one (because they found said earls unattractive but can’t accept admitting they’re willing to comprimise to the point of marrying a double minded man).
I always thought the main thrust of Dalrock’s blog was pretty simple: “Don’t man up and marry those sluts! Watch them shrivel up and die surrounded by cats! HAHAHAHAHAHA! DUMB SLUTS!!!!!”
I shed a tear. This was tender moment for me, please – give me a sec to gather myself.
I dated a lot of evangilical women back in the 70’s. Some had the reputation as sluts. Most dumped me after one or two dates because I didn’t lay them. One went 3 months, then nexted me because I only went to third base (semi-public location, I would have gone all the way on the nex date.) Two relationships lasted years. One moved out-of state, a couple of years later I called in the spring and she told me she was engaged, tha November I was invited to the wedding (got invitation on Tuesday for wedding that Saturday; as my aunt says first babies come early.) The final one told me later that the reason she said no to my proposal was that I hadn’t slept with her.
So, no, I don’t believe the claim that religious women are less interested in sex than others. Even most non-religious women are only with one guy at a time. (No difference really between the two.
Sorry for resurrecting a dead thread, but I do think I have a couple of useful things to say.
I…………
We all agree, I assume, that a life of faithful Christian obedience, is within reach of anyone. Some of the specifics may look different for different people, but, you can serve God regardless of your life circumstances or situation.
And in my experience there are plenty of single Christian men who do that.
The problem is, how do Christian women gauge that? They can’t see a man’s heart. So they tend to (mis)judge a man’s piety by Christian externalities: Oooo…. he prays 2 hours every morning, he studies the Bible 2 hours every day, he hosts a Bible study group, he leads this or that ministry….
In short, their metric is not his faith, but, the fact that he spends a good deal of his waking hours in religious activities. The problem is, only TWO types of men, can actually do this:
a) Pastors — for whom it is their job, &
b) Social rejects — who have nothing else to do.
Behold your Earls of Piety!
And since most pastors marry the hottest girl from Bible college, shortly after graduating, the Earls still on the market are nearly all social rejects… not that there’s anything wrong with that. (Isaiah 53:3).
II…………
In “Boundaries in Dating”, authors Cloud & Townsend warn of the danger of judging a potential mate by Christian externalities. When Cloud asked a bunch of young Christians, what they look for, he got the answers you’d expect, and responded —
In all the years that I have done marriage counseling, I have yet to meet a couple who was ready to divorce, or having significant problems because one was not witty enough, or did not read their Bible as much as the other wished, or was not a leader in their field. But I have met hundreds of couples who are about to end their relationship, who say things like this:
-She’s so controlling that I feel smothered all the time
-He doesn’t listen to me.
-He’s so critical….
-He’s so irresponsible…
-She overspends….
etc, etc..
In short, serious character flaws. And I must say, it’s easy to do a whole lot of external Christian activities without really reforming ones’ character. Ive seen “Earls” who turned out to be anything but, despite centering their lives around churchy stuff.
My conclusion is that the quest for the Earl of Externally Apparent Piety is dangerously misguided.
I think Seed made a good choice. It almost sounds like he’s an alcoholic.